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Grand I finally provoke a hidden pov team member to finially come out in to the
light and talk to me. I have triied to get this for a while now.
One: Why are you programming POVRAY?
My hope answer: To produce the best and most capable program to your abilities.
Why my stance: The limits you have placed on povray show you amount of pride in
your work. If a process is available you should not count it out just because
you do not want to put your time into your creation. You should try harder to
do what you have set out to do. I complaine about the pov team backing off of
their commitment to all of us that use the very program the team created. It is
called integraty. If I say I will do something I must do it. If I only go half
way I lack integraty.
You claim how difficult it is to do what I have sudjested but I have done just
what I have asked with clumsey and slow code. It does not dive directly into
the pov code but uses Povray as an engine. That tells me that it is not that
difficult to do.
Secondly men where able to send a person to the moon useing a slide rule so any
rebuff from the pov team about what can and can not be done is a result of
their direct willingness to apply the energy required.
One of these post stated that there is no other program that uses network
rendering over multiple platforms. I would send them to the Newtek site.
http://www.newtek.com
Lightwave has been doing this for a very long time. And yes they have radiosity
also. They are driven by money. The pov team should be driven by pride. This is
a great accomplishment they have in creating a program such as povray with no
direct finatial input and limited time. To fall short now is like an athlete
training hard and winning some local meets and then going to the olipics just
to set in the stands.
The Pov team has the knowlage and the ability to make Povray the most powerfull
program available. They just need to be pushed like an athalete to perform at
the level we all know they can reach.
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On 29 Jun 2000 11:57:20 -0400, lavender wrote:
>You claim how difficult it is to do what I have sudjested but I have done just
>what I have asked with clumsey and slow code. It does not dive directly into
>the pov code but uses Povray as an engine. That tells me that it is not that
>difficult to do.
So shut up and contribute some working code. See you in a couple years.
Actually, you've provoked not one but at least three members of the POV-Team,
all of whom are actively developing the next version. We all know why it's
not as easy as you think it is; do you?
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's.
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"Ron Parker" <ron### [at] povray org> wrote in message
news:slr### [at] linuxparkerrfwicom...
| On 29 Jun 2000 11:57:20 -0400, lavender wrote:
| >That tells me that it is not that difficult to do.
|
| We all know why it's not as easy as you think it is; do you?
<interjection> Many people must be wondering by now if there's always this
much tension prior to a version change. </interjection>
Bob
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lavender <lav### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:8F6263A94lavendersmith@204.213.191.228...
> Grand I finally provoke a hidden pov team member to finially come out in
to the
> light and talk to me. I have triied to get this for a while now.
>
> One: Why are you programming POVRAY?
> My hope answer: To produce the best and most capable program to your
abilities.
> Why my stance: The limits you have placed on povray show you amount of
pride in
> your work. If a process is available you should not count it out just
because
> you do not want to put your time into your creation. You should try harder
to
> do what you have set out to do. I complaine about the pov team backing off
of
> their commitment to all of us that use the very program the team created.
It is
> called integraty. If I say I will do something I must do it. If I only go
half
> way I lack integraty.
>
> You claim how difficult it is to do what I have sudjested but I have done
just
> what I have asked with clumsey and slow code. It does not dive directly
into
> the pov code but uses Povray as an engine. That tells me that it is not
that
> difficult to do.
>
> Secondly men where able to send a person to the moon useing a slide rule
so any
> rebuff from the pov team about what can and can not be done is a result of
> their direct willingness to apply the energy required.
>
> One of these post stated that there is no other program that uses network
> rendering over multiple platforms. I would send them to the Newtek site.
>
> http://www.newtek.com
>
> Lightwave has been doing this for a very long time. And yes they have
radiosity
> also. They are driven by money. The pov team should be driven by pride.
This is
> a great accomplishment they have in creating a program such as povray with
no
> direct finatial input and limited time. To fall short now is like an
athlete
> training hard and winning some local meets and then going to the olipics
just
> to set in the stands.
>
> The Pov team has the knowlage and the ability to make Povray the most
powerfull
> program available. They just need to be pushed like an athalete to perform
at
> the level we all know they can reach.
Excuse Me?!
This is just my opinion, but that sounds a tad bit offensive.
The people who created and developed POV have shown a large amount of talent
and generosity. That should be recognized but it seems you are taking that
talent and generosity for granted. Constructive criticism is one thing, I
think you went beyond that.
Good programs are in my opinion as much art as science, and art can't be
dictated to only inspired.
Pardon my pretentiousness
P.S. Spelling and grammar do count.
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I'm just grateful that the Pov team and others like Ron and Nathan, have
bothered to produce povray, Without it I would never have discoved the
wonders of raytracing. We all know that there are many difficulties with
PovRay,but instead of complaining do as others have done; roll up your
sleeves get stuck in and put your programming skills where your mouth is.
Mick
"lavender" <lav### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:8F6263A94lavendersmith@204.213.191.228...
> Grand I finally provoke a hidden pov team member to finially come out in
to the
> light and talk to me. I have triied to get this for a while now.
>
> One: Why are you programming POVRAY?
> My hope answer: To produce the best and most capable program to your
abilities.
> Why my stance: The limits you have placed on povray show you amount of
pride in
> your work. If a process is available you should not count it out just
because
> you do not want to put your time into your creation. You should try harder
to
> do what you have set out to do. I complaine about the pov team backing off
of
> their commitment to all of us that use the very program the team created.
It is
> called integraty. If I say I will do something I must do it. If I only go
half
> way I lack integraty.
>
> You claim how difficult it is to do what I have sudjested but I have done
just
> what I have asked with clumsey and slow code. It does not dive directly
into
> the pov code but uses Povray as an engine. That tells me that it is not
that
> difficult to do.
>
> Secondly men where able to send a person to the moon useing a slide rule
so any
> rebuff from the pov team about what can and can not be done is a result of
> their direct willingness to apply the energy required.
>
> One of these post stated that there is no other program that uses network
> rendering over multiple platforms. I would send them to the Newtek site.
>
> http://www.newtek.com
>
> Lightwave has been doing this for a very long time. And yes they have
radiosity
> also. They are driven by money. The pov team should be driven by pride.
This is
> a great accomplishment they have in creating a program such as povray with
no
> direct finatial input and limited time. To fall short now is like an
athlete
> training hard and winning some local meets and then going to the olipics
just
> to set in the stands.
>
> The Pov team has the knowlage and the ability to make Povray the most
powerfull
> program available. They just need to be pushed like an athalete to perform
at
> the level we all know they can reach.
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Magesitting wrote:
> P.S. Spelling and grammar do count.
In defense of Lavender and all non-english speaking people who visit
this news server -
This is an international forum and content is more important than
grammar and spelling. As long as you can understand the concepts
being presented we can easily overlook the difficulties presented
by language barriers across international boundaries. I personally
feel that picking on spelling a grammar mistakes is petty and
uncalled for.
--
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Assistance Group Memeber
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On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:24:30 -0700, Ken wrote:
>I personally
>feel that picking on spelling a grammar mistakes is petty and
>uncalled for.
I agree. If the concepts presented are a problem, by all means disagree
with them on their merits. Picking on spelling is no better than an ad
hominem attack in my book. Look beyond the wrapper.
But... "spelling a grammar mistakes"????
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's.
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Ron Parker wrote:
> But... "spelling a grammar mistakes"????
Bite me!
<g>
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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In article <8F6263A94lavendersmith@204.213.191.228> ,
lav### [at] hotmailcom (lavender) wrote:
> Grand I finally provoke a hidden pov team member to finially come out in to
> the light and talk to me. I have tried to get this for a while now.
You don't have to be rude to accomplish this!
> One: Why are you programming POVRAY? My hope answer: To produce the best and
> most capable program to your abilities. Why my stance: The limits you have
> placed on povray show you amount of pride in your work. If a process is
> available you should not count it out just because you do not want to put your
> time into your creation.
> You should try harder to do what you have set out to
> do. I complaine about the pov team backing off of their commitment to all of
> us that use the very program the team created.
We make POV-Ray for fun. The POV-team shares a common interest (in simple
terms: writing a raytracer) and we make it available to anyone for free, we
have a commitment only to ourselves, it has never (as far as I know) been
stated that we make POV-Ray only for our users. We make it because we like
to use it, and we then share it with you. We could also charge money for
this sharing, not make the source code available or just stop distributing
it.
To make this one point clear: The POV-team owns POV-Ray, we have the
copyright for the source code. If we don't like to implement something or
we do not have the resources (programmers, time, etc) we won't. It is our
software and we do with it what _we_ like, not what _you_ like.
We enjoy adding features to POV-Ray because we like to have a powerful tool
to play with, and this is usually an interest we share with the other users
of POV-Ray. We also listen do ideas from other users, not because we have
to, but because we also like the features they suggest.
> It is called integraty. If I
> say I will do something I must do it. If I only go half way I lack integraty.
We never said we will do something. The only thing we ever stated are plans
we have, plans of features we would also like. We did not say there will be
a POV-Ray X.Y next year, it will have feature A, B, C. And we do it for a
good reason: People like you who seem to forget that we don't have all the
resources of the world, or the resources you think we have to have, are the
problem. And people like you who forget that we provide this for free, do
the work in our spare time we could also spend with our girlfriends, wives
or children.
> You claim how difficult it is to do what I have sudjested but I have done just
> what I have asked with clumsey and slow code. It does not dive directly into
> the pov code but uses Povray as an engine. That tells me that it is not that
> difficult to do.
It tells me that you don't know what you are talking about.
You wrote a program that distributes a scene or sequence of frames over more
than one computer, fine, that is indeed not difficult oif all are using the
same operating system. You use operating specific functions to connect to
the other systems, fine. What did these functions do? Did you use OLE over
the network? In what format did you transfer the commands? Did you specify
a path to a directory/file available to all computers in the network to
access the scene file? Or did you transfer it to each computer? How well
did your distribution system scale on larger/smaller networks of computers?
How much network bandwith did it consume? How does it recover when error
occure on one/many/all computers? What happens if not all computers provide
the same render speed? Do you wait for the slowest computer al the time?
What if one computer crashes, do you wait forever? How easy is it to setup
the rendering on multiple systems? Does everybody need to have full access
to all systems, do you have to start it on very system manually? Does it
handle access control? How are systems connect, over an Ethernet, over the
Internet using a modem connection?
These are just some issues that exist when running on only one operating
system. It get more complicated on multiple systems: What network protocol
do you use to support most operating systems? TCP/IP, fine, and now? What
format do you transfer files? Do they all get DOS/Unix/Macintosh style line
endings? What about include files? Are the stored locally? On a server?
What happens to path specifications? Some operating systems use a colon,
some a slash and some a backslash, and some use yet another separator. How
to you translate these, how to you interprete a DOS path on a Unix system?
Is it any use to specify an absolute path at all? Probably not, how could
it work then? How do you get the results back to the system that started
the render? Again, you need to define, develop and iterate a protocol for
this. And do you let everybody render their stuff on your computer? No, you
need access control again! How do you provide this in a cross-platform
manner? How do you abstract a network API for easy cross-platform porting
of POV-Ray? If you send raw data over the network, how do you handle
endianess? Decide for big or little endian? Pick any, yes? No! The
conversion takes time on the system using the opposite endianess. Is it
much time? No, but it will hit performance. How do you specify the
computers you want to render on? A text file? What about GUI integration?
And what on a command line?
All this needs to be researched and developed first, not even to mention
issues like radiosity. Do you still think it is soooooo easy?
> Secondly men where able to send a person to the moon useing a slide rule so
> any rebuff from the pov team about what can and can not be done is a result of
> their direct willingness to apply the energy required.
And US$10000000000 ??? (In American English this would be "ten billion".)
> One of these post stated that there is no other program that uses network
> rendering over multiple platforms. I would send them to the Newtek site.
Wrong! To quote myself:
"How many of the "professional" programs can do this on more than just a few
Unix platforms? The answers is simple: None. Pixar added Windows NT
support for RenderMan just a short time ago"
> Lightwave has been doing this for a very long time. And yes they have
> radiosity also. They are driven by money. The pov team should be driven by
> pride. This is a great accomplishment they have in creating a program such as
> povray with no direct finatial input and limited time. To fall short now is
> like an athlete training hard and winning some local meets and then going to
> the olipics just to set in the stands.
Lightwave 3D information on that website:
>>
Windows NT
Pentium 266 or better
Windows NT v. 4
64MB RAM Minimum
Alpha Windows NT v.3.51 or later
64MB RAM Minimum
Silicon Graphics Inc. systems IRIX 6.2 or later
64MB RAM Minimum
PowerMac Systems PowerPC CPU
System 8.6 or later
64 MB RAM Minimum
All systems require 15MB hard drive space, CD-ROM for installation, and a
minimum screen resolution of 800 x 600.
The minimum RAM is really the Minimum -- trust us, you'll want more.
<<
To add a few things here: Alpha Windows NT is no longer developed by
Microsoft. And 64 MB of RAM as minimum, well, POV-Ray will run on Windows
9x, NT/2000, Mac OS 7.55 and later, IRIX, Sun OS, BeOS, Linux, etc, etc with
just about 5 MB of free RAM minimum.
So, well yes, it runs on "multiple platforms", and how many?
Oh, and because it is such a great free product you have to decide to donate
US$2500 the the developers? Also this does add to this point, it adds to
your other insults.
> The Pov team has the knowlage and the ability to make Povray the most
> powerfull program available. They just need to be pushed like an athalete to
> perform at the level we all know they can reach.
In case you haven't figured it out yet: WE DO NOT LIKE TO BE PUSHED!!!
Thorsten
Speaking for myself.
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On 29 Jun 2000 11:57:20 -0400 lav### [at] hotmailcom (lavender)
wrote:
>Grand I finally provoke a hidden pov team member to finially come out in to the
>light and talk to me. I have triied to get this for a while now.
This is because we live in fear and lurk in the shadows <s>.
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful message. As always, we
appreciate reading messages from the many people who use and enjoy
POV-Ray.
Follow-ups to povray.general.
--
Alan - ako### [at] povrayorg - a k o n g <at> p o v r a y <dot> o r g
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer
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Excellent reply Thorsten!
I don't know that I personally would have put that much effort into this
person.
Hopefully they'll go back to wherever they came from or code the whole thing
up and prove you wrong.
Kudos,
Lee
--
lee### [at] prodigynet
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[rant snipped]
Could someone remind me how to set up a killfile in Outlook Express?
Mark
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> You don't have to be rude to accomplish this!
To lavender: Yeah!
> We make POV-Ray for fun. We make it because we like
> to use it, and we then share it with you.
To POV-Team: God bless you. :)
>We could also charge money for this sharing, not make
> the source code available or just stop distributing it.
To God: May the day never come...
> And people like you who forget that we provide this for free, do the
> work in our spare time we could also spend with our girlfriends, wives
> or children.
To lavender: Yeah! They live in a hole for you! Selfish son of a...
> It tells me that you don't know what you are talking about.
To lavender: And they do, dammit!
> In case you haven't figured it out yet: WE DO NOT LIKE TO BE PUSHED!!!
To POV-Team: Can we gently nudge you from time to time? :)
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> P.S. Spelling and grammar do count.
F7 in Outlook express will help.
Rick
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> also. They are driven by money. The pov team should be driven by pride.
This is
> a great accomplishment they have in creating a program such as povray with
no
> direct finatial input and limited time. To fall short now is like an
athlete
> training hard and winning some local meets and then going to the olipics
just
> to set in the stands.
I think you fail to realise that pride does not buy food, pay bills and or
taxes.
The povray project does accomplish a vast amount concidering how its
developed, and with every new version i am allways amazed with it (shortly
followed by a need to buy a faster PC)
if povray was a commercial project do you think there would be the open
development we see now? as it stands anyone can take the povray source code,
doctor new features in and release it to the masses, and of course the best
of these features finally make it into the official build.
yes i agree it would be nice to for povray to be a more widely accepted
render platform, and not just a hobbyests toy, but that is not the fault of
the official team. its actually our fault. if we got off our arses and
implamented the features we are complaining that povray lacks then it will
make a world of difference.
just remember povray is essentially free, and as its free no one has any
right to expect the same level of development as a commercial render engine.
the povray team are human as well, they have lives, families and other
commitments that are far more important than meeting our impatient requests
for the moon on a stick.
Rick
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Rick wrote:
> F7 in Outlook express will help.
No, it won't ;-)
Markus
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oops. This is as bad as the language mail...
I was going to answer to this trolling behaviour but thought better of it.
To the Pov-Team:
I'd like once more to thank you for the great work they are doing and
express my profound respect for your labour. Thank you for the hours you
spent and are spending on pov-ray. Thank you for sharing the results.
And I know most pov-ray user feel the same.
Sincerely,
Philippe
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See what happens when you teach a monkey to write!
To the POV Team-
I have studied programming and you all have my deepest respect. Not only for
POV-Ray, but for your charitable act of sharing it at no charge. I have
always wanted to dabble in Raycasting, but I do not want to pay the huge
fees some of the Pro prices (Not to mention the hardware upgrades) for what
to me is a fun hobby. It is my chance to explore art in a way that makes
sense to me. Sadly when ever you put something out there for others to use,
someone comes along and nags. I think the best thing to be done about this
cat is to ignore him so he will just go away!
P.S.
You guys keep up the great work! There are many of us that do thank you and
your efforts.
--
C.J. - POV User
www.crosswinds.net/~povstudy
lavender <lav### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:8F6263A94lavendersmith@204.213.191.228...
> Grand I finally provoke a hidden pov team member to finially come out in
to the
> light and talk to me. I have triied to get this for a while now.
>
> One: Why are you programming POVRAY?
> My hope answer: To produce the best and most capable program to your
abilities.
> Why my stance: The limits you have placed on povray show you amount of
pride in
> your work. If a process is available you should not count it out just
because
> you do not want to put your time into your creation. You should try harder
to
> do what you have set out to do. I complaine about the pov team backing off
of
> their commitment to all of us that use the very program the team created.
It is
> called integraty. If I say I will do something I must do it. If I only go
half
> way I lack integraty.
>
> You claim how difficult it is to do what I have sudjested but I have done
just
> what I have asked with clumsey and slow code. It does not dive directly
into
> the pov code but uses Povray as an engine. That tells me that it is not
that
> difficult to do.
>
> Secondly men where able to send a person to the moon useing a slide rule
so any
> rebuff from the pov team about what can and can not be done is a result of
> their direct willingness to apply the energy required.
>
> One of these post stated that there is no other program that uses network
> rendering over multiple platforms. I would send them to the Newtek site.
>
> http://www.newtek.com
>
> Lightwave has been doing this for a very long time. And yes they have
radiosity
> also. They are driven by money. The pov team should be driven by pride.
This is
> a great accomplishment they have in creating a program such as povray with
no
> direct finatial input and limited time. To fall short now is like an
athlete
> training hard and winning some local meets and then going to the olipics
just
> to set in the stands.
>
> The Pov team has the knowlage and the ability to make Povray the most
powerfull
> program available. They just need to be pushed like an athalete to perform
at
> the level we all know they can reach.
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I must stand here in humble accord and publicly and officially apologize
for not being smart enough to make my point correctly and offend so many
people in doing so.
I can explain why I did what I did but for those who where offended I just
ask for forgivness.
I do know the great degree of effert that has gone into povray. I also know
of the little return to those that have produced it.
I deal with computers and computer software producers on a dayly bases and
am having a bit of a problem with why in the year 2000 we have such limited
system. I know that the pov team must also deal with these stupid
limitation when trying to develope the program.
I do believe that most of the distributed processes should be in the base
OS and that povray really should not need it.
I have in the past hunted for some one in the pov team that would reply to
questions and I was treated rudly by those that did reply. I made
sudjestintions and was chastized for sudgesting something they obviously
knew was to hard for them or the systems they where aiming at. I used that
as an excuse to lower my self to what I thought those I was dealing with
had reached.
I know that my programming skills are week and that I do not know enough to
truly contribute to the pov effert.
My only complaint is that with all that povray can do and with all of us
that use it we still have wants that the pov team has not been able to
provide for.
An unrelated complaint is that some of the limitaions of povray has nothing
to do with povray but that modern computers are about 10 years behind what
they should be. OS's should never crash but they do regularly. I should not
have to throw away my old computer just because I buy new one. I am sure
every one here has these same complaints and do not know who truly to yell
at about them.
Thses are some of the reasons for my unaproprit comments.
I ask again for the acseptance of my humble apology. The pov team has in my
opinion produced an extraordinay program that no other program can touch.
I will acnoladge that the povteam does not like to be pushed but I also
believe that they are talented enough to much more than they have already.
Maybe some pushing could help them reach much further than just the gold
ring but much beyond that. I do believe they can do even more than they
have. I just do not know how to incurage this. I can provide ways for
increased funds through their own actions but that will be something each
and every one of us must asses.
Thank you Pov Team for Povray and the loooong hours you have put into it.
As for spelling and grammer I see that as just as warped as trying to
understand the networked rendering problem. An example: Why is drought
spelled the way it is when doubt is spelled they way it is and why even
have letters that you can not hear. This is just as stupid as windows
always crashing.
I do plan on releasing the utilities that I am working on for distributing
a rendering over a windows system. Once it is easily useable.
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Bravo! Excellent!
--
Regards, Sander
-----------------------------
Thorsten Froehlich <tho### [at] trfde> schreef in berichtnieuws
395bd0fa@news.povray.org...
> In article <8F6263A94lavendersmith@204.213.191.228> ,
> lav### [at] hotmailcom (lavender) wrote:
>
> You don't have to be rude to accomplish this!
> <snip etc>
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lavender <lav### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
: One: Why are you programming POVRAY?
: My hope answer: To produce the best and most capable program to your abilities.
Is this some kind of provocation?
: You claim how difficult it is to do what I have sudjested but I have done just
: what I have asked with clumsey and slow code.
Well, here you are.
You are free to make it with high-quality and fast code and make a patch
for povray with it. Contributions are very welcome.
Btw, if this was about multithreaded povray, I would like to see it working
with radiosity.
: Secondly men where able to send a person to the moon useing a slide rule
Do you know how much money they received for one hour of work?
: One of these post stated that there is no other program that uses network
: rendering over multiple platforms.
Don't believe everything you read.
I use this kind of programs myself from time to time.
: They just need to be pushed like an athalete to perform at
: the level we all know they can reach.
Sorry, but this statement is plain ridiculous.
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
: I personally
: feel that picking on spelling a grammar mistakes is petty and
: uncalled for.
On the other hand people will never learn to write correctly if no-one
tells them what they are doing wrong.
I personally would like people telling me if I write something wrong, but
I have gave up long time ago because people are "too" polite for that. I have
no other alternative but learn english just by reading others texts.
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote
> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> : I personally
> : feel that picking on spelling a grammar mistakes is petty and
> : uncalled for.
>
> On the other hand people will never learn to write correctly if no-one
> tells them what they are doing wrong.
Writers/spellers need to be pushed like an athelete to perform at
the level we all know they can reach.
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david sharp wrote:
> Writers/spellers need to be pushed like an athelete to perform at
> the level we all know they can reach.
That's a fakt !
--
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
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Warp wrote in message <3960ffab@news.povray.org>...
>I have gave up long time ago because people are "too" polite for that. I
have
>no other alternative but learn english just by reading others texts.
That should be others', not others.
Mark
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"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message news:3960ffab@news.povray.org...
| Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
| : I personally
| : feel that picking on spelling a grammar mistakes is petty and
| : uncalled for.
|
| On the other hand people will never learn to write correctly if no-one
| tells them what they are doing wrong.
| I personally would like people telling me if I write something wrong, but
| I have gave up long time ago because people are "too" polite for that. I
have
| no other alternative but learn english just by reading others texts.
The English language, and I could probably guess right that all others too,
are somewhat of a science. Although, no one ever seems to consider it so.
Learning the correct way to both speak and write is something that can keep
being refined but language, at least English I know, has been metamorphosing
for centuries. And it keeps on changing grammatically most of all. To keep a
good understanding of it you'd have to follow the school of thought on it as
opposed to any one persons speech. Therein lies the problem, continual
diversification of the learned versus the known language. By "known" I'm
talking about how it's used in everyday life, as opposed to the "learned"
being a dissected and resurrected lingual science.
I often can't imagine someone trying to learn English and ever hoping to make
complete sense out of everything they hear, read, write or say. If anything I
think much of it comes from ones own understanding of a language of their own
and inferring as well as possible what something means. Perfected language is
only a shell for the usual communications everyone make.
Really though, you could write and speak any number of ways in a single
language so it has to be something people convey beyond words. That's the
trouble though, it's akin to mind-reading too in that one thing can always
mean another. There's no sure thing about it.
I'll leave you with those thoughts in mind ;-) but please do go ahead and
re-read what I just said here and it's probably not going to be what I said
precisely the first time I can almost guarantee. However the general message
gets through.
[this reply brought to you by the redundant use of other people previous
words]
Bob
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On 3 Jul 2000 17:03:39 -0400, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> On the other hand people will never learn to write correctly if no-one
>tells them what they are doing wrong.
> I personally would like people telling me if I write something wrong, but
>I have gave up long time ago because people are "too" polite for that. I have
>no other alternative but learn english just by reading others texts.
Hark and behold! At last there is a man of virtue to stand against the
native speaker lord and tell him of our woes. Alas! as for our brethen
tis already too late, for the shadows of our past have left none
unscarred. Blessed is he who has dwelled among folk of such bravery as
to stand tall and speak up for their hearts, though pain and dismay
their sayings may hold for others, for he has learnt his lesson,
though bitter it may have been, and has become keen in the Western
tongue.
etc.
I am having too much Talkien lately, it seems...
Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] usanet
TAG e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg
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> : I personally
> : feel that picking on spelling a grammar mistakes is petty and
> : uncalled for.
>
> On the other hand people will never learn to write correctly if no-one
> tells them what they are doing wrong.
> I personally would like people telling me if I write something wrong,
but
> I have gave up long time ago because people are "too" polite for that. I
have
> no other alternative but learn english just by reading others texts.
Hey with my English, I need all the help I can get! (and I'm a native one
language man myself!).
What sickens me is the British English education system is so dire, even
most of its own citizens cannot grasp the language correctly.
I was on the dyslexic side at school, and for English ended up being dumped
to the bottom class, instead of receiving the extra help I needed. I had an
expected English GCSE grade of 'G', while for other subjects such as math
and science I was in the top sets, looking toward straight A's.
And no one thought this was odd.
Because of my poor English, it was strongly suggested to me that I drop my
main GCSE's at option time, and take supplementary education instead, in
other words, I would have finished school with no qualifications to speak
of, and have some basic life skills instead. (ready for a career on the
social, and painting park benches!!)
You can guess where I told them to stick that idea!
As I happened I retook my English at college and managed to get a D, but
that was only because my main course (IT) took priority and I let the
English course work suffer.
Rick
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In article <3961c060@news.povray.org>, "Rick" <ric### [at] kitty5com> wrote:
> Hey with my English, I need all the help I can get! (and I'm a native one
> language man myself!).
>
> What sickens me is the British English education system is so dire, even
> most of its own citizens cannot grasp the language correctly.
>
> I was on the dyslexic side at school, and for English ended up being
> dumped to the bottom class, instead of receiving the extra help I
> needed. I had an expected English GCSE grade of 'G', while for other
> subjects such as math and science I was in the top sets, looking
> toward straight A's.
I know how you feel...I barely passed Grammar II this year, and may have
to take the second semester again next year. My other subjects, while
not straight A's, were much better. I'm not dyslexic, I just can't
identify sentence parts. It's like I categorize words differently from
the person who wrote the grammar book(which seems to be written by
someone obsessed with finding the most complex way in which to explain
things). Many of the constructions of English seem clumsy and unnatural
to me, though because it is the only language I know, I can't compare
with others.
Not surprisingly, when I took the SAT(an ability test), language came
out behind everything else.
And if you think the British system is bad, look at some of the stuff
some Americans write. And most of them don't even care that people can
barely understand them.(If I make a spelling mistake, please point it
out. If I make a grammar mistake, also point it out, but I will probably
forget it 5 minutes after I read it.)
--
Christopher James Huff - Personal e-mail: chr### [at] maccom
TAG(Technical Assistance Group) e-mail: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
Personal Web page: http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
TAG Web page: http://tag.povray.org/
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> > P.S. Spelling and grammar do count.
>
> In defense of Lavender and all non-english speaking people who visit
> this news server -
[Snip]
Long thread is following this post, but where is mentioned POVRay and
Windows?
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On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:47:02 -0700, Bruce L <dke### [at] sksympaticoca>
wrote:
>Maybe we could have English passed over to one of those ISO commities,
>and get the whole mess cleared up <g>
I'd rather learn GNU-English when a stable version is out.
Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] usanet
TAG e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg
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Rick <ric### [at] kitty5com> wrote:
: What sickens me is the British English education system is so dire, even
: most of its own citizens cannot grasp the language correctly.
I don't know why, but it seems that I am the only person (at least here
in Finland) who doesn't dislike the British accent. Actually it sounds quite
interesting.
I don't know how to talk with that accent, but I like hearing it :)
--
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/
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"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message news:3964b9e9@news.povray.org...
| Rick <ric### [at] kitty5com> wrote:
| I don't know how to talk with that accent, but I like hearing it :)
You must like analog sounds then. That's what I'd call the English accent
anyhow. A sort of even undulation from highs and lows at various frequencies,
or sine wave. And I'd call the southern drawl (from around these parts of the
USA that's our accent) a more saw-toothed analog sound.
Of course, this is mere opinion and I could be totally mistaken about the
comparison.
Bob
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lavender <lav### [at] hotmailcom> wrote...
[clip]
> I ask again for the acseptance of my humble apology. The pov team has in
my
> opinion produced an extraordinay program that no other program can touch.
[clip]
> Thank you Pov Team for Povray and the loooong hours you have put into it.
As a POV-Team member, it pleases me more to respond to this post than to
your previous post. :-) I just have a few comments.
First, some people are working on a PVM version of MegaPov (a PVM version of
the official version already exists). This PVM version will allow network
rendering (client/slave) on a Windows network, though it currently doesn't
work with radiosity.
Secondly, I'd like to thank the POV users who stood up for us and all of the
work that we've done. And I also appreciate your kind comments in this
post. :-) It is my desire that your future relationship with members of
the POV community and POV-Team are all positive with a mutual respect and
understanding. It is unfortunate that we seem to have gotten off on the
wrong foot, but it doesn't have to stay that way.
Sincerely,
Nathan Kopp
I speak for myself and not the POV-Team.
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Your attitude might be appropriate when directed to someone who were to make a
non-working modeller and then were sassy to people who try to get help.
This attitude is ridiculous when applied to our good friends the pov team, who
reaffirm our faith in the nobleness of humanity.
Would demoralizing freeware programmers help the financial bottom line of Newtek?
lavender wrote:
> Grand I finally provoke a hidden pov team member to finially come out in to the
> light and talk to me. I have triied to get this for a while now.
>
> One: Why are you programming POVRAY?
> My hope answer: To produce the best and most capable program to your abilities.
> Why my stance: The limits you have placed on povray show you amount of pride in
> your work. If a process is available you should not count it out just because
> you do not want to put your time into your creation. You should try harder to
> do what you have set out to do. I complaine about the pov team backing off of
> their commitment to all of us that use the very program the team created. It is
> called integraty. If I say I will do something I must do it. If I only go half
> way I lack integraty.
>
> You claim how difficult it is to do what I have sudjested but I have done just
> what I have asked with clumsey and slow code. It does not dive directly into
> the pov code but uses Povray as an engine. That tells me that it is not that
> difficult to do.
>
> Secondly men where able to send a person to the moon useing a slide rule so any
> rebuff from the pov team about what can and can not be done is a result of
> their direct willingness to apply the energy required.
>
> One of these post stated that there is no other program that uses network
> rendering over multiple platforms. I would send them to the Newtek site.
>
> http://www.newtek.com
>
> Lightwave has been doing this for a very long time. And yes they have radiosity
> also. They are driven by money. The pov team should be driven by pride. This is
> a great accomplishment they have in creating a program such as povray with no
> direct finatial input and limited time. To fall short now is like an athlete
> training hard and winning some local meets and then going to the olipics just
> to set in the stands.
>
> The Pov team has the knowlage and the ability to make Povray the most powerfull
> program available. They just need to be pushed like an athalete to perform at
> the level we all know they can reach.
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Warp wrote:
> On the other hand people will never learn to write correctly if no-one
> tells them what they are doing wrong.
> I personally would like people telling me if I write something wrong, but
> I have gave up long time ago because people are "too" polite for that. I have
> no other alternative but learn english just by reading others texts.
>
On the other hand people will never learn to write correctly if NO ONE WERE TO
tell them what they are doing wrong.
I personally would like people TO TELL ME IF I WERE TO WRITE something wrong.
Just kidding, but I think this is the more correct usage.
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On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:50:02 -0400, Greg M. Johnson wrote:
>On the other hand people will never learn to write correctly if NO ONE WERE TO
^^^^ would
>tell them what they are doing wrong.
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's.
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