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I have POV-Ray 3.7 and 3.7 beta installed. How do I uninstall them? They
do not appear in the 'Programs and Features' list. I also ran the
uninstallers in the program directories, but the files remain.
Windows 7 x64 Pro
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Am 23.06.2017 um 20:28 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> I have POV-Ray 3.7 and 3.7 beta installed. How do I uninstall them? They
> do not appear in the 'Programs and Features' list. I also ran the
> uninstallers in the program directories, but the files remain.
>
> Windows 7 x64 Pro
Sounds like the uninstallers have already run, but unsuccessfully so
(for unknown reasons). Otherwise, you should find the application listed
as "POV-Ray for Windows ..."
If that is the case, try installing again, then uninstalling.
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On 6/23/2017 3:11 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 23.06.2017 um 20:28 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> I have POV-Ray 3.7 and 3.7 beta installed. How do I uninstall them? They
>> do not appear in the 'Programs and Features' list. I also ran the
>> uninstallers in the program directories, but the files remain.
>>
>> Windows 7 x64 Pro
>
> Sounds like the uninstallers have already run, but unsuccessfully so
> (for unknown reasons). Otherwise, you should find the application listed
> as "POV-Ray for Windows ..."
>
> If that is the case, try installing again, then uninstalling.
>
I logged into my administrator account and the programs showed up in the
list there. I've never encountered this behavior before, where a program
doesn't appear in "Programs and Features" unless you are logged in as admin.
Mike
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On 6/23/2017 4:43 PM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> On 6/23/2017 3:11 PM, clipka wrote:
>> Am 23.06.2017 um 20:28 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>>> I have POV-Ray 3.7 and 3.7 beta installed. How do I uninstall them? They
>>> do not appear in the 'Programs and Features' list. I also ran the
>>> uninstallers in the program directories, but the files remain.
>>>
>>> Windows 7 x64 Pro
>>
>> Sounds like the uninstallers have already run, but unsuccessfully so
>> (for unknown reasons). Otherwise, you should find the application listed
>> as "POV-Ray for Windows ..."
>>
>> If that is the case, try installing again, then uninstalling.
>>
>
> I logged into my administrator account and the programs showed up in the
> list there. I've never encountered this behavior before, where a program
> doesn't appear in "Programs and Features" unless you are logged in as
> admin.
>
> Mike
Next, I tried installing RC1 using my non-admin account, but the
installation failed when trying to write to "C:\Program
Files\POV-Ray\v3.7\agpl-3.0.txt". After switching to my admin account,
the installation completed successfully, but did not copy the Start Menu
items and assorted include files to my non-admin accounts. Is there no
way to install POV-Ray for all users?
Mike
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Am 23.06.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> Next, I tried installing RC1 using my non-admin account, but the
> installation failed when trying to write to "C:\Program
> Files\POV-Ray\v3.7\agpl-3.0.txt". After switching to my admin account,
> the installation completed successfully, but did not copy the Start Menu
> items and assorted include files to my non-admin accounts. Is there no
> way to install POV-Ray for all users?
No, not really. This is a systematic issue with modern Windows (and any
multi-user system, actually), where technically the user-modifiable
portions of any given program need to be installed for each user
individually.
To my knowledge, running "pvengine.exe /INSTALL" should perform this
step for the current user.
Theoretically there would be a way to "advertise" this step during
installation, i.e. make it known to Windows so that it can automatically
be executed when a user runs POV-Ray for the first time, but that's
tricky to do, and might not be possible with the Nullsoft Installer
System (NSIS) we're using to create the installer.
The alternative would be to let POV-Ray test whether it is being run by
the user for the first time, and in that case perform the step
automatically, but again this needs some time and effort to implement
cleanly.
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On 6/23/2017 6:01 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 23.06.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>
>> Next, I tried installing RC1 using my non-admin account, but the
>> installation failed when trying to write to "C:\Program
>> Files\POV-Ray\v3.7\agpl-3.0.txt". After switching to my admin account,
>> the installation completed successfully, but did not copy the Start Menu
>> items and assorted include files to my non-admin accounts. Is there no
>> way to install POV-Ray for all users?
>
> No, not really. This is a systematic issue with modern Windows (and any
> multi-user system, actually), where technically the user-modifiable
> portions of any given program need to be installed for each user
> individually.
>
> To my knowledge, running "pvengine.exe /INSTALL" should perform this
> step for the current user.
>
> Theoretically there would be a way to "advertise" this step during
> installation, i.e. make it known to Windows so that it can automatically
> be executed when a user runs POV-Ray for the first time, but that's
> tricky to do, and might not be possible with the Nullsoft Installer
> System (NSIS) we're using to create the installer.
>
> The alternative would be to let POV-Ray test whether it is being run by
> the user for the first time, and in that case perform the step
> automatically, but again this needs some time and effort to implement
> cleanly.
>
I ran "pvengine.exe /INSTALL". It indicated "Success!" but did not add
anything to the Start Menu or copy the include files over.
Alternately, you could put all this stuff in "C:\Users\Public\Documents"
and "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs". See here:
http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/q-how-do-i-add-item-start-menu-all-users-windows-7-and-windows-vista
My system has 94 items in the latter folder.
Mike
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Am 24.06.2017 um 00:34 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/23/2017 6:01 PM, clipka wrote:
...
>> No, not really. This is a systematic issue with modern Windows (and any
>> multi-user system, actually), where technically the user-modifiable
>> portions of any given program need to be installed for each user
>> individually.
...
> Alternately, you could put all this stuff in "C:\Users\Public\Documents"
That, per se, won't cut it: We expect users to modify those files
(that's why they're not residing in the "Program Files" folder in the
first place), so to prevent one user's modification to affect another
user, each needs their own copy.
What we probably should do, instead, is to put all the stuff in
"C:\Users\Default\Documents", and when a user runs POV-Ray for the first
time, copy it from there to the user's own documents folder.
> and "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs". See here:
>
>
http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/q-how-do-i-add-item-start-menu-all-users-windows-7-and-windows-vista
>
>
> My system has 94 items in the latter folder.
Start Menu is a different matter.
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On 6/24/2017 1:44 AM, clipka wrote:
>> and "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs". See here:
>>
>>
http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/q-how-do-i-add-item-start-menu-all-users-windows-7-and-windows-vista
>>
>>
>> My system has 94 items in the latter folder.
>
> Start Menu is a different matter.
>
Why is it a different matter? It is part of the installation process, too.
Mike
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Am 28.06.2017 um 11:25 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/24/2017 1:44 AM, clipka wrote:
>>> and "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs". See here:
>>>
>>>
http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/q-how-do-i-add-item-start-menu-all-users-windows-7-and-windows-vista
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My system has 94 items in the latter folder.
>>
>> Start Menu is a different matter.
>>
>
> Why is it a different matter? It is part of the installation process, too.
What I mean is, technically it is entirely different from the issue of
installing user-modifiable files.
The start menu is just a bunch of shortcuts, and there /is/ a mechanism
to install such shortcuts for all users (both existing and future).
There is no such thing for actual files a user might tamper with. (And
there can't be, because the start menu mechanism relies on those
shortcuts being static.)
But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
option would be seriously misleading.
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On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
> option would be seriously misleading.
>
Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
accounts is also seriously misleading.
Mike
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Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>
>
> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
> accounts is also seriously misleading.
Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
`%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
While it may not be standard knowledge how to install software for a
non-admin user, I think it is reasonably fair to expect such knowledge
from anyone using a non-standard Windows installation where they're
deliberately depriving their user account from the possibility of
temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin level.
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On 6/28/2017 4:30 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
>>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>>
>>
>> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
>> accounts is also seriously misleading.
>
> Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
>
> Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
> install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
> `%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
>
The installer doesn't suggest this. It just spawns an error message
about a text file of all things, and then asks you whether to abort. A
little hint would be helpful, and might even forestall threads such as
this one.
>
> While it may not be standard knowledge how to install software for a
> non-admin user, I think it is reasonably fair to expect such knowledge
> from anyone using a non-standard Windows installation where they're
> deliberately depriving their user account from the possibility of
> temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin level.
>
Suggesting that a user log in as admin every time just to use a
non-critical graphics program sounds like a pretty stupid risk to me.
And going into Control Panel and changing the access level of a person's
user account just to install or uninstall one piece of software makes
POV-Ray look like a special snowflake at best, and malware at worst.
Mike
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Am 29.06.2017 um 02:15 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/28/2017 4:30 PM, clipka wrote:
>> Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>>> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>>>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>>>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a
>>>> mechanism to
>>>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>>>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
>>> accounts is also seriously misleading.
>>
>> Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
>>
>> Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
>> install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
>> `%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
>>
>
> The installer doesn't suggest this. It just spawns an error message
> about a text file of all things, and then asks you whether to abort. A
> little hint would be helpful, and might even forestall threads such as
> this one.
As I said: I think it is reasonable to expect you to already /know/ such
stuff, given that you've deliberately chosen to set up a separate admin
account. If you've been unaware of the associated pitfalls until now,
blame it on the person who recommended to you that you should go that
route - /they/ should have informed you about the side effects of that
procedure.
> Suggesting that a user log in as admin every time just to use a
> non-critical graphics program sounds like a pretty stupid risk to me.
> And going into Control Panel and changing the access level of a person's
> user account just to install or uninstall one piece of software makes
> POV-Ray look like a special snowflake at best, and malware at worst.
You do know that the issue of admin vs. non-admin account has been
addressed by the User Access Control mechanism? You know, the thing that
pops up a dialog each time a program does something that needs admin
rights, even if the current user /is/ an admin.
Also, please note that I'm not saying POV-Ray's installer is perfect.
I'm just saying how things are at the moment, and explaining why that
is. Unfortunately the person on the team with the most expertise
regarding Windows installers also happens to be the person with the most
interference from RL, so we can't put as much effort and know-how into
the installer as we'd like to.
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On 6/29/2017 8:19 AM, clipka wrote:
> As I said: I think it is reasonable to expect you to already /know/ such
> stuff, given that you've deliberately chosen to set up a separate admin
> account. If you've been unaware of the associated pitfalls until now,
> blame it on the person who recommended to you that you should go that
> route - /they/ should have informed you about the side effects of that
> procedure.
>
Having separate admin and limited user accounts is probably one of the
most important best practices on Windows, and is one of the cornerstones
of the concept of "least privilege". The fact that you don't know this
as a professional after 20+ years amazes me.
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/1510.best-practices-using-a-separate-account-for-admin-tasks.aspx
http://www.lbmcinformationsecurity.com/blog/are-your-administrators-using-admin-accounts-for-everything
>> Suggesting that a user log in as admin every time just to use a
>> non-critical graphics program sounds like a pretty stupid risk to me.
>> And going into Control Panel and changing the access level of a person's
>> user account just to install or uninstall one piece of software makes
>> POV-Ray look like a special snowflake at best, and malware at worst.
>
> You do know that the issue of admin vs. non-admin account has been
> addressed by the User Access Control mechanism? You know, the thing that
> pops up a dialog each time a program does something that needs admin
> rights, even if the current user /is/ an admin.
>
There is no Access Control popup during installation. All you get is a
generic error regarding "agpl-3.0.txt". There is also no Access Control
popup when trying to access the include files. You are simply denied
access to that folder.
Mike
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On 7/1/2017 2:14 PM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> There is also no Access Control
> popup when trying to access the include files. You are simply denied
> access to that folder.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
I just tested this again, and there is a popup in this case.
Mike
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On 7/1/2017 2:21 PM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> On 7/1/2017 2:14 PM, Mike Horvath wrote:
>> There is also no Access Control popup when trying to access the
>> include files. You are simply denied access to that folder.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>
> I just tested this again, and there is a popup in this case.
>
>
> Mike
I checked a third time, and the popup is for *PERMANENT* access to the
folder.
If a limited user tries to access the POV-Ray include files in the
admin's Documents directory, he is given *PERMANENT* access to the whole
profile folder.
Mike
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Am 01.07.2017 um 20:14 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/29/2017 8:19 AM, clipka wrote:
>> As I said: I think it is reasonable to expect you to already /know/ such
>> stuff, given that you've deliberately chosen to set up a separate admin
>> account. If you've been unaware of the associated pitfalls until now,
>> blame it on the person who recommended to you that you should go that
>> route - /they/ should have informed you about the side effects of that
>> procedure.
>>
>
> Having separate admin and limited user accounts is probably one of the
> most important best practices on Windows, and is one of the cornerstones
> of the concept of "least privilege". The fact that you don't know this
> as a professional after 20+ years amazes me.
>
>
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/1510.best-practices-using-a-separate-account-for-admin-tasks.aspx
>
>
http://www.lbmcinformationsecurity.com/blog/are-your-administrators-using-admin-accounts-for-everything
(1) What does this (the question whether it's best practice or nor) have
to do with whether, if you follow it, you should be aware of its drawbacks?
(2) Your "fact" is an alternative one, i.e. a falsehood: I /am/ well
aware of the practice, and that it is an important best practices on
Windows.
(3) What amazes /me/ is the fact that /you/ don't really understand the
background of that best practice.
The articles cited are /not/ making a case for regular end users having
an extra dedicated admin account -- they both are making a case for
professional admins having an extra dedicated non-admin account.
As the latter, the practice is still valid. As the former, it is pretty
much obsoleted by the UAC introduced with Windows Vista.
> There is no Access Control popup during installation. All you get is a
> generic error regarding "agpl-3.0.txt". There is also no Access Control
> popup when trying to access the include files. You are simply denied
> access to that folder.
There /would/ be a UAC popup if your regular user account was equipped
with the privilege of obtaining admin privileges via UAC. But since
you're trying to run the installer with a locked-down user account,
you're denying yourself that route.
(Note that as of Vista, as a regular user you do not /have/ admin
privileges anymore during regular operation. Only when you confirm a UAC
dialog do you /temporarily gain/ those privileges, and only for the
program in question, such as an installer.)
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Am 01.07.2017 um 20:31 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> I checked a third time, and the popup is for *PERMANENT* access to the
> folder.
>
> If a limited user tries to access the POV-Ray include files in the
> admin's Documents directory, he is given *PERMANENT* access to the whole
> profile folder.
That's because you're doing it wrong (by today's standards). I'm not
sure what you're using there, but whatever it is, I'm quite sure it is
not UAC.
The proper way to do this stunt would be first of all to use a user
account with the privilege to obtain admin privileges. As such a user,
you would then invoke Windows Explorer via "run as admin" (which would
prompt a UAC popup to grant you admin privileges for this instance of
Windows Explorer), access the directory in question, and finally close
Windows Explorer again (which would revoke the admin privileges again,
because they were limited to the instance of the program anyway).
Don't blame it on POV-Ray if your operating system does weird stuff when
you're using weird solutions to problems caused by your own weird(*)
operating system setup.
(*again, by today's standards; note that the last Windows version
without UAC, Windows XP, is a zombie by now: It is way past the end of
its lifecycle. And while we're still producing XP-compatible binaries,
this is out of mere courtesy towards the walking dead, so that there is
still /some/ pathway to install POV-Ray on them. We're no longer putting
any effort into making that pathway particularly pretty.)
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Le 17-07-02 à 03:17, clipka a écrit :
> (*again, by today's standards; note that the last Windows version
> without UAC, Windows XP, is a zombie by now: It is way past the end of
> its lifecycle. And while we're still producing XP-compatible binaries,
> this is out of mere courtesy towards the walking dead, so that there is
> still /some/ pathway to install POV-Ray on them. We're no longer putting
> any effort into making that pathway particularly pretty.)
>
As long as you use it offline, it's OK.
By offline, I mean without any path to any network at all.
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On 7/2/2017 3:17 AM, clipka wrote:
> The proper way to do this stunt would be first of all to use a user
> account with the privilege to obtain admin privileges. As such a user,
> you would then invoke Windows Explorer via "run as admin" (which would
> prompt a UAC popup to grant you admin privileges for this instance of
> Windows Explorer), access the directory in question, and finally close
> Windows Explorer again (which would revoke the admin privileges again,
> because they were limited to the instance of the program anyway).
>
I was unable to accomplish this in Windows 7, so I did some research. It
seems Microsoft disabled this capability after Windows XP. Maybe you
should actually test your advice first before offering any?
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/2a366967-f9fb-4010-81f3-94dc15c86ad3/run-explorer-as-a-different-user?forum=w7itprosecurity
Further, even if this worked, it would not help when using the File >
Open command inside POV-Ray.
Lastly, kudos for not mentioning the "proper way" of installing POV-Ray
in any documentation.
> Don't blame it on POV-Ray if your operating system does weird stuff when
> you're using weird solutions to problems caused by your own weird(*)
> operating system setup.
>
>
There is nothing strange about my setup. You are the one not up-to-date
about OS best practices.
Mike
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On 7/2/2017 2:32 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 01.07.2017 um 20:14 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 6/29/2017 8:19 AM, clipka wrote:
>>> As I said: I think it is reasonable to expect you to already /know/ such
>>> stuff, given that you've deliberately chosen to set up a separate admin
>>> account. If you've been unaware of the associated pitfalls until now,
>>> blame it on the person who recommended to you that you should go that
>>> route - /they/ should have informed you about the side effects of that
>>> procedure.
>>>
>>
>> Having separate admin and limited user accounts is probably one of the
>> most important best practices on Windows, and is one of the cornerstones
>> of the concept of "least privilege". The fact that you don't know this
>> as a professional after 20+ years amazes me.
>>
>>
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/1510.best-practices-using-a-separate-account-for-admin-tasks.aspx
>>
>>
http://www.lbmcinformationsecurity.com/blog/are-your-administrators-using-admin-accounts-for-everything
>
> (1) What does this (the question whether it's best practice or nor) have
> to do with whether, if you follow it, you should be aware of its drawbacks?
>
I have installed dozens of programs over the past decade. and this
"drawback" only occurs with POV-Ray!
> (3) What amazes /me/ is the fact that /you/ don't really understand the
> background of that best practice.
>
> The articles cited are /not/ making a case for regular end users having
> an extra dedicated admin account -- they both are making a case for
> professional admins having an extra dedicated non-admin account.
>
> As the latter, the practice is still valid. As the former, it is pretty
> much obsoleted by the UAC introduced with Windows Vista.
>
>
Ridiculous!
https://www.tomsguide.com/us/standard-accounts-stop-malware,news-18326.html
>> There is no Access Control popup during installation. All you get is a
>> generic error regarding "agpl-3.0.txt". There is also no Access Control
>> popup when trying to access the include files. You are simply denied
>> access to that folder.
>
> There /would/ be a UAC popup if your regular user account was equipped
> with the privilege of obtaining admin privileges via UAC. But since
> you're trying to run the installer with a locked-down user account,
> you're denying yourself that route.
>
> (Note that as of Vista, as a regular user you do not /have/ admin
> privileges anymore during regular operation. Only when you confirm a UAC
> dialog do you /temporarily gain/ those privileges, and only for the
> program in question, such as an installer.)
>
Every other program ever has asked me for privileges during installation
if needed. the simple fact is that the POV-Ray installer is not doing
so! And WTF is a "privilege of obtaining admin privileges"? You just
made this up.
Mike
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On 7/2/2017 6:10 PM, Alain wrote:
> Le 17-07-02 à 03:17, clipka a écrit :
>
>> (*again, by today's standards; note that the last Windows version
>> without UAC, Windows XP, is a zombie by now: It is way past the end of
>> its lifecycle. And while we're still producing XP-compatible binaries,
>> this is out of mere courtesy towards the walking dead, so that there is
>> still /some/ pathway to install POV-Ray on them. We're no longer putting
>> any effort into making that pathway particularly pretty.)
>>
>
> As long as you use it offline, it's OK.
> By offline, I mean without any path to any network at all.
This only works in Windows XP.
Mike
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Am 03.07.2017 um 05:37 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 7/2/2017 3:17 AM, clipka wrote:
>> The proper way to do this stunt would be first of all to use a user
>> account with the privilege to obtain admin privileges. As such a user,
>> you would then invoke Windows Explorer via "run as admin" (which would
>> prompt a UAC popup to grant you admin privileges for this instance of
>> Windows Explorer), access the directory in question, and finally close
>> Windows Explorer again (which would revoke the admin privileges again,
>> because they were limited to the instance of the program anyway).
>>
>
> I was unable to accomplish this in Windows 7, so I did some research. It
> seems Microsoft disabled this capability after Windows XP. Maybe you
> should actually test your advice first before offering any?
>
>
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/2a366967-f9fb-4010-81f3-94dc15c86ad3/run-explorer-as-a-different-user?forum=w7itprosecurity
Don't confuse "run as different user" with "run as admin": The former
would actually allow you to run the program as a different user (which
in XP times may have had admin privileges); the latter allows you to run
the program with admin privileges, without switching user accounts.
I wasn't aware that Microsoft has stipped the "run as admin" from the
context menu of the link; but you can still run it as admin by
navigating to "C:\Windows", right-clicking "explorer.exe", and choosing
"run as admin".
That said, yes, I should probably have tested my advice: It turns out
that you don't even need to run Windows Explorer as admin to access
other users' directories. If you are using an account that has UAC
privilege, Windows Explorer will prompt you for UAC elevation "on the
fly" when you click on a folder you don't normally have access to.
> Further, even if this worked, it would not help when using the File >
> Open command inside POV-Ray.
If you were relying on UAC rather than the outdated (for end users)
approach of using separate accounts, you wouldn't have that problem:
You'd click on the other user's directory, would be prompted with a UAC
dialog, and be perfectly fine.
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Am 03.07.2017 um 05:45 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> I have installed dozens of programs over the past decade. and this
> "drawback" only occurs with POV-Ray!
Dozens over a decade is a pretty small sample size.
You might be surprised about the curious habits of diverse installers.
Heck, I've seen commercial(!) software that cannot even be installed in
"C:\Program Files" because it can't handle blanks in file names. And
yes, that was well within the last decade.
Give us a break. We're writing this software in our spare time for free.
> Every other program ever has asked me for privileges during installation
> if needed.
Virtually no installer does that. Most rely on the operating system
asking you for privileges /before/ the installer actually runs.
Of course you could presumably write a custom installer that doesn't
reveal to the OS beforehand that it needs admin rights, and only invokes
UAC via some API later; but since installers virtually always require
admin rights, it's rarely done that way. Instead, installers typically
seem to advertise to the OS (via a manifest) that they want the highest
privilege level available to the user, and that's that.
Since this is the mechanism POV-Ray uses, there is no need to ask for
privileges on demand; POV-Ray always gets the privileges it may need
during installation -- unless you try to install it as a locked-down
user and pick a target directory a locked-down user never gets access to
anyway.
> the simple fact is that the POV-Ray installer is not doing
> so! And WTF is a "privilege of obtaining admin privileges"? You just
> made this up.
No, I haven't. It's not the official nomenclature, but it's effectively
how UAC works: A user with "admin rights" (or however they call it in
the English version) no longer has (permanent) admin privileges. The
only privilege over a locked-down user is that he is prompted by UAC if
needs be, to obtain admin privileges temporarily.
Modern Linux distros, BTW, use a very similar mechanism for desktop
installations -- though their "UAC dialog equivalent" includes a
password prompt, and internally the admin privileges are tracked via the
"effective user ID" (as opposed to the "current user ID"; the former
determines what privileges a user has, while the latter governs stuff
like their home directory and such); to my knowledge, Windows tracks
only "the" user account, but switches between the regular user account
without admin privileges, and a "twin" user account with admin privileges.
So the difference in security between contemporary Linux distros and
Windows' UAC (as far as that particular concept is concerned) is
essentially just the password prompt in the dialog, which prevents a
physical intruder from obtaining admin-level access on your machine
while you're away from keyboard. In professional environments where this
is a problem, a professional edition of Windows can be used, allowing to
enable such a password prompt even on Windows.
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On 7/3/2017 2:38 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 03.07.2017 um 05:37 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 7/2/2017 3:17 AM, clipka wrote:
>>> The proper way to do this stunt would be first of all to use a user
>>> account with the privilege to obtain admin privileges. As such a user,
>>> you would then invoke Windows Explorer via "run as admin" (which would
>>> prompt a UAC popup to grant you admin privileges for this instance of
>>> Windows Explorer), access the directory in question, and finally close
>>> Windows Explorer again (which would revoke the admin privileges again,
>>> because they were limited to the instance of the program anyway).
>>>
>>
>> I was unable to accomplish this in Windows 7, so I did some research. It
>> seems Microsoft disabled this capability after Windows XP. Maybe you
>> should actually test your advice first before offering any?
>>
>>
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/2a366967-f9fb-4010-81f3-94dc15c86ad3/run-explorer-as-a-different-user?forum=w7itprosecurity
>
> Don't confuse "run as different user" with "run as admin": The former
> would actually allow you to run the program as a different user (which
> in XP times may have had admin privileges); the latter allows you to run
> the program with admin privileges, without switching user accounts.
>
On Windows 7 I have been using "Run as administrator".
> I wasn't aware that Microsoft has stipped the "run as admin" from the
> context menu of the link; but you can still run it as admin by
> navigating to "C:\Windows", right-clicking "explorer.exe", and choosing
> "run as admin".
>
They didn't. The link still exists. It just has no effect as of Windows
Vista. On Windows 7 your second suggestion makes no difference. The
result is the same.
> That said, yes, I should probably have tested my advice: It turns out
> that you don't even need to run Windows Explorer as admin to access
> other users' directories. If you are using an account that has UAC
> privilege, Windows Explorer will prompt you for UAC elevation "on the
> fly" when you click on a folder you don't normally have access to.
>
>
As I explained earlier, doing this grants User A *permanent* access to
all of User B's files. If User B's files are located in "C:\Users\User
B\Documents\POV-Ray", then User A gets access to "C:\Users\UserB" and
all sub-folders, which I don't want. Read the prompt more closely.
>> Further, even if this worked, it would not help when using the File >
>> Open command inside POV-Ray.
>
> If you were relying on UAC rather than the outdated (for end users)
> approach of using separate accounts, you wouldn't have that problem:
> You'd click on the other user's directory, would be prompted with a UAC
> dialog, and be perfectly fine.
>
This is a security/privacy issue. User B gets access to all documents
belonging to User A, whether they have anything to do with POV-Ray or not.
Mike
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On 7/3/2017 3:38 AM, clipka wrote:
>> Every other program ever has asked me for privileges during installation
>> if needed.
>
> Virtually no installer does that. Most rely on the operating system
> asking you for privileges /before/ the installer actually runs.
>
Why not also the POV-Ray installer? Can't it also advertise that it
needs elevated privileges?
Mike
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On 6/28/2017 4:30 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
>>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>>
>>
>> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
>> accounts is also seriously misleading.
>
> Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
>
> Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
> install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
> `%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
>
>
This is possible, but not recommended according to members of Super User:
https://superuser.com/questions/199360/is-installing-programs-outside-of-the-default-program-files-directory-wise
https://serverfault.com/questions/120681/how-important-is-it-to-install-on-the-program-files-folder
> While it may not be standard knowledge how to install software for a
> non-admin user, I think it is reasonably fair to expect such knowledge
> from anyone using a non-standard Windows installation where they're
> deliberately depriving their user account from the possibility of
> temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin level.
>
I also asked on Super User whether it's a good idea not to use an admin
account for day-to-day activities:
https://superuser.com/questions/1225124/admin-rights-on-non-server-windows-installations
It seems it is somewhat a matter of opinion, but not uncommon, and
definitely not a bad idea.
Mike
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On 7/3/2017 10:43 PM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> On 6/28/2017 4:30 PM, clipka wrote:
>> Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>>> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>>>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>>>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a
>>>> mechanism to
>>>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>>>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
>>> accounts is also seriously misleading.
>>
>> Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
>>
>> Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
>> install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
>> `%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
>>
>>
>
> This is possible, but not recommended according to members of Super User:
>
>
https://superuser.com/questions/199360/is-installing-programs-outside-of-the-default-program-files-directory-wise
>
>
https://serverfault.com/questions/120681/how-important-is-it-to-install-on-the-program-files-folder
>
>
>
>
>> While it may not be standard knowledge how to install software for a
>> non-admin user, I think it is reasonably fair to expect such knowledge
>> from anyone using a non-standard Windows installation where they're
>> deliberately depriving their user account from the possibility of
>> temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin level.
>>
>
> I also asked on Super User whether it's a good idea not to use an admin
> account for day-to-day activities:
>
>
https://superuser.com/questions/1225124/admin-rights-on-non-server-windows-installations
>
>
> It seems it is somewhat a matter of opinion, but not uncommon, and
> definitely not a bad idea.
>
>
> Mike
Also, I don't understand what /"depriving their user account from the
possibility of temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin
level"/ means. I don't think this is even possible in Windows.
Mike
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Am 04.07.2017 um 04:03 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>>> Further, even if this worked, it would not help when using the File >
>>> Open command inside POV-Ray.
>>
>> If you were relying on UAC rather than the outdated (for end users)
>> approach of using separate accounts, you wouldn't have that problem:
>> You'd click on the other user's directory, would be prompted with a UAC
>> dialog, and be perfectly fine.
>
> This is a security/privacy issue. User B gets access to all documents
> belonging to User A, whether they have anything to do with POV-Ray or not.
If you are an admin of a computer that may be used by multiple users,
then I agree, admin/user separation makes sense in that case.
But in that case you also should have enough background knowledge to
work around the problems that you're presented with when installing
POV-Ray in such a setting.
That doesn't mean that the POV-Ray installer is perfect. But it means
that I think you should be less vocal in your complaining about it.
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Am 04.07.2017 um 04:09 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 7/3/2017 3:38 AM, clipka wrote:
>>> Every other program ever has asked me for privileges during installation
>>> if needed.
>>
>> Virtually no installer does that. Most rely on the operating system
>> asking you for privileges /before/ the installer actually runs.
>>
>
> Why not also the POV-Ray installer? Can't it also advertise that it
> needs elevated privileges?
It does.
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On 7/4/2017 3:08 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 04.07.2017 um 04:09 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 7/3/2017 3:38 AM, clipka wrote:
>>>> Every other program ever has asked me for privileges during installation
>>>> if needed.
>>>
>>> Virtually no installer does that. Most rely on the operating system
>>> asking you for privileges /before/ the installer actually runs.
>>>
>>
>> Why not also the POV-Ray installer? Can't it also advertise that it
>> needs elevated privileges?
>
> It does.
>
Couldn't it also advertise this to non-admins?
Mike
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On 7/4/2017 3:08 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 04.07.2017 um 04:03 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>
>>>> Further, even if this worked, it would not help when using the File >
>>>> Open command inside POV-Ray.
>>>
>>> If you were relying on UAC rather than the outdated (for end users)
>>> approach of using separate accounts, you wouldn't have that problem:
>>> You'd click on the other user's directory, would be prompted with a UAC
>>> dialog, and be perfectly fine.
>>
>> This is a security/privacy issue. User B gets access to all documents
>> belonging to User A, whether they have anything to do with POV-Ray or not.
>
> If you are an admin of a computer that may be used by multiple users,
> then I agree, admin/user separation makes sense in that case.
>
> But in that case you also should have enough background knowledge to
> work around the problems that you're presented with when installing
> POV-Ray in such a setting.
>
>
> That doesn't mean that the POV-Ray installer is perfect. But it means
> that I think you should be less vocal in your complaining about it.
>
Well, when trying to figure this out for myself I have gotten mostly
non-helpful suggestions that don't work in my OS.
Mike
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On 6/23/2017 6:01 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 23.06.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>
>> Next, I tried installing RC1 using my non-admin account, but the
>> installation failed when trying to write to "C:\Program
>> Files\POV-Ray\v3.7\agpl-3.0.txt". After switching to my admin account,
>> the installation completed successfully, but did not copy the Start Menu
>> items and assorted include files to my non-admin accounts. Is there no
>> way to install POV-Ray for all users?
>
> No, not really. This is a systematic issue with modern Windows (and any
> multi-user system, actually), where technically the user-modifiable
> portions of any given program need to be installed for each user
> individually.
>
> To my knowledge, running "pvengine.exe /INSTALL" should perform this
> step for the current user.
>
> Theoretically there would be a way to "advertise" this step during
> installation, i.e. make it known to Windows so that it can automatically
> be executed when a user runs POV-Ray for the first time, but that's
> tricky to do, and might not be possible with the Nullsoft Installer
> System (NSIS) we're using to create the installer.
>
> The alternative would be to let POV-Ray test whether it is being run by
> the user for the first time, and in that case perform the step
> automatically, but again this needs some time and effort to implement
> cleanly.
>
Can I write a wiki article on how to properly install POV-Ray? Where in
the wiki should it go?
Mike
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Am 06.07.2017 um 07:25 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> Can I write a wiki article on how to properly install POV-Ray? Where in
> the wiki should it go?
You may want to ask this on the `povray.documentation.inbuilt` newsgroup.
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