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Am 23.06.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> Next, I tried installing RC1 using my non-admin account, but the
> installation failed when trying to write to "C:\Program
> Files\POV-Ray\v3.7\agpl-3.0.txt". After switching to my admin account,
> the installation completed successfully, but did not copy the Start Menu
> items and assorted include files to my non-admin accounts. Is there no
> way to install POV-Ray for all users?
No, not really. This is a systematic issue with modern Windows (and any
multi-user system, actually), where technically the user-modifiable
portions of any given program need to be installed for each user
individually.
To my knowledge, running "pvengine.exe /INSTALL" should perform this
step for the current user.
Theoretically there would be a way to "advertise" this step during
installation, i.e. make it known to Windows so that it can automatically
be executed when a user runs POV-Ray for the first time, but that's
tricky to do, and might not be possible with the Nullsoft Installer
System (NSIS) we're using to create the installer.
The alternative would be to let POV-Ray test whether it is being run by
the user for the first time, and in that case perform the step
automatically, but again this needs some time and effort to implement
cleanly.
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On 6/23/2017 6:01 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 23.06.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>
>> Next, I tried installing RC1 using my non-admin account, but the
>> installation failed when trying to write to "C:\Program
>> Files\POV-Ray\v3.7\agpl-3.0.txt". After switching to my admin account,
>> the installation completed successfully, but did not copy the Start Menu
>> items and assorted include files to my non-admin accounts. Is there no
>> way to install POV-Ray for all users?
>
> No, not really. This is a systematic issue with modern Windows (and any
> multi-user system, actually), where technically the user-modifiable
> portions of any given program need to be installed for each user
> individually.
>
> To my knowledge, running "pvengine.exe /INSTALL" should perform this
> step for the current user.
>
> Theoretically there would be a way to "advertise" this step during
> installation, i.e. make it known to Windows so that it can automatically
> be executed when a user runs POV-Ray for the first time, but that's
> tricky to do, and might not be possible with the Nullsoft Installer
> System (NSIS) we're using to create the installer.
>
> The alternative would be to let POV-Ray test whether it is being run by
> the user for the first time, and in that case perform the step
> automatically, but again this needs some time and effort to implement
> cleanly.
>
I ran "pvengine.exe /INSTALL". It indicated "Success!" but did not add
anything to the Start Menu or copy the include files over.
Alternately, you could put all this stuff in "C:\Users\Public\Documents"
and "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs". See here:
http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/q-how-do-i-add-item-start-menu-all-users-windows-7-and-windows-vista
My system has 94 items in the latter folder.
Mike
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Am 24.06.2017 um 00:34 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/23/2017 6:01 PM, clipka wrote:
...
>> No, not really. This is a systematic issue with modern Windows (and any
>> multi-user system, actually), where technically the user-modifiable
>> portions of any given program need to be installed for each user
>> individually.
...
> Alternately, you could put all this stuff in "C:\Users\Public\Documents"
That, per se, won't cut it: We expect users to modify those files
(that's why they're not residing in the "Program Files" folder in the
first place), so to prevent one user's modification to affect another
user, each needs their own copy.
What we probably should do, instead, is to put all the stuff in
"C:\Users\Default\Documents", and when a user runs POV-Ray for the first
time, copy it from there to the user's own documents folder.
> and "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs". See here:
>
>
http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/q-how-do-i-add-item-start-menu-all-users-windows-7-and-windows-vista
>
>
> My system has 94 items in the latter folder.
Start Menu is a different matter.
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On 6/24/2017 1:44 AM, clipka wrote:
>> and "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs". See here:
>>
>>
http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/q-how-do-i-add-item-start-menu-all-users-windows-7-and-windows-vista
>>
>>
>> My system has 94 items in the latter folder.
>
> Start Menu is a different matter.
>
Why is it a different matter? It is part of the installation process, too.
Mike
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Am 28.06.2017 um 11:25 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/24/2017 1:44 AM, clipka wrote:
>>> and "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs". See here:
>>>
>>>
http://windowsitpro.com/systems-management/q-how-do-i-add-item-start-menu-all-users-windows-7-and-windows-vista
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My system has 94 items in the latter folder.
>>
>> Start Menu is a different matter.
>>
>
> Why is it a different matter? It is part of the installation process, too.
What I mean is, technically it is entirely different from the issue of
installing user-modifiable files.
The start menu is just a bunch of shortcuts, and there /is/ a mechanism
to install such shortcuts for all users (both existing and future).
There is no such thing for actual files a user might tamper with. (And
there can't be, because the start menu mechanism relies on those
shortcuts being static.)
But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
option would be seriously misleading.
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On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
> option would be seriously misleading.
>
Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
accounts is also seriously misleading.
Mike
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Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>
>
> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
> accounts is also seriously misleading.
Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
`%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
While it may not be standard knowledge how to install software for a
non-admin user, I think it is reasonably fair to expect such knowledge
from anyone using a non-standard Windows installation where they're
deliberately depriving their user account from the possibility of
temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin level.
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On 6/28/2017 4:30 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
>>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>>
>>
>> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
>> accounts is also seriously misleading.
>
> Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
>
> Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
> install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
> `%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
>
The installer doesn't suggest this. It just spawns an error message
about a text file of all things, and then asks you whether to abort. A
little hint would be helpful, and might even forestall threads such as
this one.
>
> While it may not be standard knowledge how to install software for a
> non-admin user, I think it is reasonably fair to expect such knowledge
> from anyone using a non-standard Windows installation where they're
> deliberately depriving their user account from the possibility of
> temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin level.
>
Suggesting that a user log in as admin every time just to use a
non-critical graphics program sounds like a pretty stupid risk to me.
And going into Control Panel and changing the access level of a person's
user account just to install or uninstall one piece of software makes
POV-Ray look like a special snowflake at best, and malware at worst.
Mike
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Am 29.06.2017 um 02:15 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 6/28/2017 4:30 PM, clipka wrote:
>> Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>>> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>>>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>>>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a
>>>> mechanism to
>>>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>>>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
>>> accounts is also seriously misleading.
>>
>> Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
>>
>> Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
>> install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
>> `%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
>>
>
> The installer doesn't suggest this. It just spawns an error message
> about a text file of all things, and then asks you whether to abort. A
> little hint would be helpful, and might even forestall threads such as
> this one.
As I said: I think it is reasonable to expect you to already /know/ such
stuff, given that you've deliberately chosen to set up a separate admin
account. If you've been unaware of the associated pitfalls until now,
blame it on the person who recommended to you that you should go that
route - /they/ should have informed you about the side effects of that
procedure.
> Suggesting that a user log in as admin every time just to use a
> non-critical graphics program sounds like a pretty stupid risk to me.
> And going into Control Panel and changing the access level of a person's
> user account just to install or uninstall one piece of software makes
> POV-Ray look like a special snowflake at best, and malware at worst.
You do know that the issue of admin vs. non-admin account has been
addressed by the User Access Control mechanism? You know, the thing that
pops up a dialog each time a program does something that needs admin
rights, even if the current user /is/ an admin.
Also, please note that I'm not saying POV-Ray's installer is perfect.
I'm just saying how things are at the moment, and explaining why that
is. Unfortunately the person on the team with the most expertise
regarding Windows installers also happens to be the person with the most
interference from RL, so we can't put as much effort and know-how into
the installer as we'd like to.
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On 6/29/2017 8:19 AM, clipka wrote:
> As I said: I think it is reasonable to expect you to already /know/ such
> stuff, given that you've deliberately chosen to set up a separate admin
> account. If you've been unaware of the associated pitfalls until now,
> blame it on the person who recommended to you that you should go that
> route - /they/ should have informed you about the side effects of that
> procedure.
>
Having separate admin and limited user accounts is probably one of the
most important best practices on Windows, and is one of the cornerstones
of the concept of "least privilege". The fact that you don't know this
as a professional after 20+ years amazes me.
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/1510.best-practices-using-a-separate-account-for-admin-tasks.aspx
http://www.lbmcinformationsecurity.com/blog/are-your-administrators-using-admin-accounts-for-everything
>> Suggesting that a user log in as admin every time just to use a
>> non-critical graphics program sounds like a pretty stupid risk to me.
>> And going into Control Panel and changing the access level of a person's
>> user account just to install or uninstall one piece of software makes
>> POV-Ray look like a special snowflake at best, and malware at worst.
>
> You do know that the issue of admin vs. non-admin account has been
> addressed by the User Access Control mechanism? You know, the thing that
> pops up a dialog each time a program does something that needs admin
> rights, even if the current user /is/ an admin.
>
There is no Access Control popup during installation. All you get is a
generic error regarding "agpl-3.0.txt". There is also no Access Control
popup when trying to access the include files. You are simply denied
access to that folder.
Mike
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