Hi,

I'm trying to create a Windows Installer package (.msi) for POV-Ray, so 
I can deploy it on 11 or more computers in a school, through Windows 
2000 Server.

As students are not supposed to have installation privileges, POV-Ray 
would be installed on a machine basis, not a user basis (i.e. it would 
be installed with admin / system privileges, but accessible from any 
user). Herein lies the problem: the pvengine.exe binary has problems 
recognizing the installaton path, which is apparently stored as per-user (
HKCU) registry key, not a machine-wide (HKLM) one.

I've found three different behaviours when trying to launch POV-Ray with 
a different user than the one it was installed with:

A) it would complain about a missing "Home" key in the registry. That 
one, however, was created (by the installation program) in both HKCU _
and_ HKLM (for whatever reason).

Code bit:

-----

  getHome () ;
  if (HomePath [0] == '\0')
  {
    MessageBox (NULL,
                "ERROR : Cannot find Home entry in registry.\n\n"
                "This entry should have been set by the installation 
program.\n\n"
                "If you did not install using the correct installation 
procedure, please "
                "do this before running POV-Ray for Windows.\n\n"
                "Otherwise, consult the README file that should have 
accompanied this executable file.",
                "Critical Error",
                MB_ICONSTOP) ;
    return (1) ;
}  }

-----

"getHome()" seems to look at "HKCU" first, and if that one fails, it'll 
try with "HKLM" instead. That's fine. I dunno why I ever received this 
error message then.

B) it would complain about not being able to access its INI files. One 
would expect the program to try relative paths first, but it seems not.

Relevant code:

-----

  if (stat (EngineIniFileName, &statbuf) != 0 || (statbuf.st_mode & S_
IFREG) != 0)
  {
    if (debugFile)
      fprintf (debugFile, "INI directory not found\n") ;
    MessageBox (NULL,
                "ERROR : Cannot find INI directory in expected location\
n\n"
                "This directory should have been created by the 
installation program.\n\n"
                "If you did not install using the correct installation 
procedure, please "
                "do this before running POV-Ray for Windows. Otherwise, 
consult the README.DOC "
                "file that should have accompanied this executable file.
",
                "Critical Error",
                MB_ICONSTOP) ;
    return (1) ;
}  }

-----

This error message mentions a "README.DOC" file, which doesn't exist; 
the "readme.txt" file consists mostly of information regarding the 
rendering engine.

If the error message included the current "HomePath" var, that would 
ease debugging greatly. Maybe getHome() returned the wrong contents?

[ C) it wouldn't launch at all, as in: it wouldn't react to it being 
launched. This may be a Windows XP bug, however. ]

The process of creating the MSI package works by launching the "povwin35.
exe" setup file with specified parameters, and watching it through a 
capturing tool. The parameters we're giving the setup are:

1. custom destination folder: "C:\Applications\Graphics\POV-Ray" (
adhering to school-wide standards)
2. no backup folder (as this isn't an upgrade install)
3. custom shortcut folder: "Graphics\POV-Ray"
4. no update checking (as we manually check for new program versions for 
the whole network, then update the deployed packages)

It would then ask to do a test render, which works fine. Then we remove 
all traces of the program, customize the created MSI package and run 
that one instead. Running POV-Ray as the same user again would work. 
Running it as a test user of one of the students, however, will give one 
of the three problems A / B / sometimes C.

I suspect that even though the installer offers to install into a custom 
directory, the app does not truly support this, and still expects at 
least some of its files to reside in C:\Programs\POV-... - this, however, 
is bad application design (and not something I'd expect from this 
otherwise great program). As the source code is open

I'm not familiar with C much, so I'm not sure if I can help fix this, 
but there is something wrong either with the Wise installer, or with 
what happens at pvengine.exe launch time.

I'd appreciate any help.

-- 


<http://www.chucker.rasdi.net>

Post a reply to this message

Hi,

If you need an woring, tested automatic installtion for POV 3.5/Mega-POV you
can use the one here:
http://www.it-berater.org/smpov.htm for FREE.

You just drop it on any PC together with the "povray35.exe" and start it.
Everything else is done automatically by some busy WinRobots.

(Only for Windows PC's)

--Theo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Distributed Network-Rendering or Local SMP-Rendering. With SMPOV and
POV-Ray 3.5. * Download free at: http://www.it-berater.org/smpov.htm

"Soeren Kuklau" <use### [at] chuckerrasdinet> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20030717221931283+0200@news.povray.org...
> Hi,
>
> I'm trying to create a Windows Installer package (.msi) for POV-Ray, so
> I can deploy it on 11 or more computers in a school, through Windows
> 2000 Server.
>
> As students are not supposed to have installation privileges, POV-Ray
> would be installed on a machine basis, not a user basis (i.e. it would
> be installed with admin / system privileges, but accessible from any
> user). Herein lies the problem: the pvengine.exe binary has problems
> recognizing the installaton path, which is apparently stored as per-user (
> HKCU) registry key, not a machine-wide (HKLM) one.
>
> I've found three different behaviours when trying to launch POV-Ray with
> a different user than the one it was installed with:
>
> A) it would complain about a missing "Home" key in the registry. That
> one, however, was created (by the installation program) in both HKCU _
> and_ HKLM (for whatever reason).
>
> Code bit:
>
> -----
>
>   getHome () ;
>   if (HomePath [0] == '\0')
>   {
>     MessageBox (NULL,
>                 "ERROR : Cannot find Home entry in registry.\n\n"
>                 "This entry should have been set by the installation
> program.\n\n"
>                 "If you did not install using the correct installation
> procedure, please "
>                 "do this before running POV-Ray for Windows.\n\n"
>                 "Otherwise, consult the README file that should have
> accompanied this executable file.",
>                 "Critical Error",
>                 MB_ICONSTOP) ;
>     return (1) ;
> }  }
>
> -----
>
> "getHome()" seems to look at "HKCU" first, and if that one fails, it'll
> try with "HKLM" instead. That's fine. I dunno why I ever received this
> error message then.
>
> B) it would complain about not being able to access its INI files. One
> would expect the program to try relative paths first, but it seems not.
>
> Relevant code:
>
> -----
>
>   if (stat (EngineIniFileName, &statbuf) != 0 || (statbuf.st_mode & S_
> IFREG) != 0)
>   {
>     if (debugFile)
>       fprintf (debugFile, "INI directory not found\n") ;
>     MessageBox (NULL,
>                 "ERROR : Cannot find INI directory in expected location\
> n\n"
>                 "This directory should have been created by the
> installation program.\n\n"
>                 "If you did not install using the correct installation
> procedure, please "
>                 "do this before running POV-Ray for Windows. Otherwise,
> consult the README.DOC "
>                 "file that should have accompanied this executable file.
> ",
>                 "Critical Error",
>                 MB_ICONSTOP) ;
>     return (1) ;
> }  }
>
> -----
>
> This error message mentions a "README.DOC" file, which doesn't exist;
> the "readme.txt" file consists mostly of information regarding the
> rendering engine.
>
> If the error message included the current "HomePath" var, that would
> ease debugging greatly. Maybe getHome() returned the wrong contents?
>
> [ C) it wouldn't launch at all, as in: it wouldn't react to it being
> launched. This may be a Windows XP bug, however. ]
>
> The process of creating the MSI package works by launching the "povwin35.
> exe" setup file with specified parameters, and watching it through a
> capturing tool. The parameters we're giving the setup are:
>
> 1. custom destination folder: "C:\Applications\Graphics\POV-Ray" (
> adhering to school-wide standards)
> 2. no backup folder (as this isn't an upgrade install)
> 3. custom shortcut folder: "Graphics\POV-Ray"
> 4. no update checking (as we manually check for new program versions for
> the whole network, then update the deployed packages)
>
> It would then ask to do a test render, which works fine. Then we remove
> all traces of the program, customize the created MSI package and run
> that one instead. Running POV-Ray as the same user again would work.
> Running it as a test user of one of the students, however, will give one
> of the three problems A / B / sometimes C.
>
> I suspect that even though the installer offers to install into a custom
> directory, the app does not truly support this, and still expects at
> least some of its files to reside in C:\Programs\POV-... - this, however,
> is bad application design (and not something I'd expect from this
> otherwise great program). As the source code is open
>
> I'm not familiar with C much, so I'm not sure if I can help fix this,
> but there is something wrong either with the Wise installer, or with
> what happens at pvengine.exe launch time.
>
> I'd appreciate any help.
>
> -- 

>
> <http://www.chucker.rasdi.net>

Post a reply to this message

"Soeren Kuklau" <use### [at] chuckerrasdinet> wrote in message
news:20030717221931283+0200@news.povray.org...
> I suspect that even though the installer offers to install into a custom
> directory, the app does not truly support this, and still expects at
> least some of its files to reside in C:\Programs\POV-... - this, however,
> is bad application design (and not something I'd expect from this
> otherwise great program). As the source code is open

It's also a bad assumption, because the program does not do this.

-- Chris

Post a reply to this message

People like to make things ten times. I cannot recommend that to you,
Soeren.

The installer which is included with POV-Ray works very well and is TESTED.

Therefore we (from Winrobots see www.winrobots.com) just take this installer
to install the programm automatically. No MSI etc. is needed. Why use
complicated
technology to make a "repackaging" if its not necessary because everything
(Installation/Deeinstallation) is already there and tested from those people
who made the program?

Our "WinRobots" click the buttons etc. like any person would do it
"manually".

No chance to find a diffrence between a manual or our automatic installation
using WinRobots-Technology.

Of course if someone tries to make a "private repacking" of Software,
there is a real danger that something will NOT WORK under certain
conditions.

Several big Software Companies deny support if you "repack" their programms
with whatever technology. For good reasons.

--Theo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Distributed Network-Rendering or Local SMP-Rendering. With SMPOV and
POV-Ray 3.5. * Download free at: http://www.it-berater.org/smpov.htm


"Chris Cason" <new### [at] deletethispovrayorg> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3f1c5c43@news.povray.org...
>
> "Soeren Kuklau" <use### [at] chuckerrasdinet> wrote in message
news:20030717221931283+0200@news.povray.org...
> > I suspect that even though the installer offers to install into a custom
> > directory, the app does not truly support this, and still expects at
> > least some of its files to reside in C:\Programs\POV-... - this,
however,
> > is bad application design (and not something I'd expect from this
> > otherwise great program). As the source code is open
>
> It's also a bad assumption, because the program does not do this.
>
> -- Chris
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Theo Gottwald * wrote on 22 Jul 2003 02:33  Uhr:
> People like to make things ten times. I cannot recommend that to you,
> Soeren.

I'm more of a lazy person, trust me.

> Therefore we (from Winrobots see www.winrobots.com) just take this 
> installer to install the programm automatically. No MSI etc. is needed. 
> Why use complicated technology to make a "repackaging" if its not 
> necessary because everything (Installation/Deeinstallation) is already 
> there and tested from those people who made the program?

Because Windows 2000 Server works with MSI. That's why. The only other 
choice offered is ZAP, which I wouldn't want to use even when forced to.

I'd like to know what Network Rendering has to do with automatically 
deploying an application over a network, btw. What you're probably doing 
is just letting the Wise Installer run in silent mode. I could of course 
create a script that does something similar, but that sounds way more 
complicated to me than just going the route I took.

As a sidenode, I think I fixed the problem.

Thanks anyway.

-- 


<http://www.chucker.rasdi.net>

Post a reply to this message

Chris Cason wrote on 21 Jul 2003 11:28  Uhr:

> "Soeren Kuklau" <use### [at] chuckerrasdinet> wrote in message news:
> 20030717221931283+0200@news.povray.org...

>> I suspect that even though the installer offers to install into a 
>> custom directory, the app does not truly support this, and still 
>> expects at least some of its files to reside in C:\Programs\POV-... - 
>> this, however, is bad application design (and not something I'd 
>> expect from this otherwise great program). As the source code is open

> It's also a bad assumption, because the program does not do this.

True; I'll take that back. There was apparently a Zombie entry in the 
tested user's HKCU registry tree, which pointed to a C:\Progra... 
location (I still have no idea how it got there, though).

-- 


<http://www.chucker.rasdi.net>

Post a reply to this message

Hi Soeren,

Wasn't meant as critics, was meant as a general statement, comparing
diffrent methods of installations.

See
http://groups.google.de/groups?q=MSI+repackaging+support&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=OIEdkOREAHA.60%40cppssbbsa04&rnum=2

I am quite shure, in your special case what you did is what was the best.
Especially as you solved your problem.

> I'd like to know what Network Rendering has to do with automatically
deploying an application over a network ...

I can tell that to you :-). Before you can render in a network you need to
install POV-Ray on each of those machines. And why do that "manually" if its
sooo easy done automatically? However you may still need a way to bring
those files on all the PC's.

>, btw. What you're probably doing is just letting the Wise Installer run in
silent mode.
To be honest I did never even know that this would work. maybe I don't
needed that ever.

Going away from POV-Ray, my statement was more general saying "How can
anyone be shure that a "repacked file " Will work under all circumstances?"
(see Link at top).

Thats not a question "How good" you can use all those repackaging-tools, the
question is just "How good can you know what needs to be done while the
installation". I saw those problems Chris told you about and thought the
article I read in the newsgroup.

It wasn't personal but I am just working with these installation things, so
I saw a chance to produce myself a bit :-))).

By the way ...  http://www.it-berater.org/download/down.pl?file=31  (Hope
you have XP Prof. somewhere :-).
Try this one and tell me :-) which installer we used in silent mode.

have fun
--Theo

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Distributed Network-Rendering or Local SMP-Rendering. With SMPOV and
POV-Ray 3.5. * Download free at: http://www.it-berater.org/smpov.htm



"Soeren Kuklau" <use### [at] chuckerrasdinet> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20030723231433742+0200@news.povray.org...
> Theo Gottwald * wrote on 22 Jul 2003 02:33  Uhr:
> > People like to make things ten times. I cannot recommend that to you,
> > Soeren.
>
> I'm more of a lazy person, trust me.
>
> > Therefore we (from Winrobots see www.winrobots.com) just take this
> > installer to install the programm automatically. No MSI etc. is needed.
> > Why use complicated technology to make a "repackaging" if its not
> > necessary because everything (Installation/Deeinstallation) is already
> > there and tested from those people who made the program?
>
> Because Windows 2000 Server works with MSI. That's why. The only other
> choice offered is ZAP, which I wouldn't want to use even when forced to.
>
> I'd like to know what Network Rendering has to do with automatically
> deploying an application over a network, btw. What you're probably doing
> is just letting the Wise Installer run in silent mode. I could of course
> create a script that does something similar, but that sounds way more
> complicated to me than just going the route I took.
>
> As a sidenode, I think I fixed the problem.
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> -- 

>
> <http://www.chucker.rasdi.net>

Post a reply to this message

Theo Gottwald * wrote on 25 Jul 2003 12:46  Uhr:
> Hi Soeren,
> 
> Wasn't meant as critics, was meant as a general statement, comparing
> diffrent methods of installations.
> 
> See
> http://groups.google.de/groups?q=MSI+repackaging+support&hl=de&lr=&
> ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=OIEdkOREAHA.60%40cppssbbsa04&rnum=2

Sorry, won't work (the message ID OIEdkOREAHA.60%40cppssbbsa04 won't be 
accepted).

> I am quite shure, in your special case what you did is what was the 
> best. Especially as you solved your problem.

Thanks. The reason I opt for MSI repackaging is that once the package is 
tested and fine, you can easily deploy it over >50 clients without a 
software besides W2K Server (which we need running anyway).

Installing using Pov-Ray's Wise Installer simply didn't seem feasible 
for me, especially because that's not at all what we're doing with other 
software either.

>> I'd like to know what Network Rendering has to do with automatically
> deploying an application over a network ...

> I can tell that to you :-). Before you can render in a network you 
> need to install POV-Ray on each of those machines. And why do that 
> "manually" if its sooo easy done automatically? However you may still 
> need a way to bring those files on all the PC's.

So, it's an automated installation? Like a snapshot or something?

>>, btw. What you're probably doing is just letting the Wise Installer 
>>run in
> silent mode.
> To be honest I did never even know that this would work. maybe I don't
> needed that ever.

> Going away from POV-Ray, my statement was more general saying "How can
> anyone be shure that a "repacked file " Will work under all 
> circumstances?" (see Link at top).

Since the link won't work for me, I suppose you mean an argument that 
goes along the lines of this:

-----

Repackaging




There are several tools around which can take a "snapshot" of a 
machine's state before and after a manual installation, compute the 
differences between the states, and bundle them up as an "installer". 
The Wise product line provides good support for this, and Microsoft's 
free tool (recently updated) provides bad support for it.  

The main problem with this approach is that it fundamentally cannot work 
reliably.  Installers can vary their behavior depending on the exact 
initial state of the machine, such as the OS version or the presence/
absence of other installed software.  So the repackaged installer will 
almost never do exactly the same thing that a fresh installation would, 
unless the target machine is completely identical to the original 
machine.  

In addition, for every new release of an application, you will need to 
repackage it again.  And there are other disadvantages which even 
Microsoft recognizes.  

For these reasons, I think repackaging is a very bad idea and I advise 
against it.

-----

( From <http://unattended.sourceforge.net/installers.html> )

> Thats not a question "How good" you can use all those repackaging-
> tools, the question is just "How good can you know what needs to be 
> done while the installation".

I'm aware of that problem; however, I have yet to run into any real 
trouble regarding that. POV-Ray is open-source anyway, so we're pretty 
much in control of what it *might* do, right? The only huge software 
package that is *not* open-source and that we use regularly (since the 
teachers won't adapt to OpenOffice.org) is MS Office - well, and that 
one *is* available as MSIs already (has been since version 2000 / 9.x), 
so we don't need repackaging in that case. :-)

It's school computers. We don't need a lot of software; nothing 
particularly complicated. I try to use simple and / or free software 
whenever I can - 7-zip instead of WinZip or WinRAR, IrfanView instead of 
ACDSee, MediaPlayer Classic (MPC) instead of RealPlayer, QuickTime or 
Windows Media Player.

So what I'm doing is spend at least a day analyzing on at least two 
different machines what a program's installer does, and then I let a 
software like Wise Package Studio build an MSI of that progress. And 
that would have worked just fine with POV-Ray if only there hadn't been 
that weird wrong entry. Anyways.

> I saw those problems Chris told you 
> about and thought the article I read in the newsgroup.
>
> It wasn't personal but I am just working with these installation 
> things, so I saw a chance to produce myself a bit :-))).

I'm sorry that I might have sounded annoyed. I was just frustrated that 
I couldn't find what's wrong. Anyway, as said, I actually *did* now - 
the user we've been testing it on had a wrong "Home" entry in the POV-
Ray HKCU tree structure. *Why* is another question, but do I wanna know? ;-)

> By the way ...  http://www.it-berater.org/download/down.pl?file=31  (
> Hope you have XP Prof. somewhere :-). Try this one and tell me :-) 
> which installer we used in silent mode.

I'm sorry, but I'm on a trip to Canada right now, and only have Mac OS X 
here. I'll have a chance to give it a try in two weeks.

Thanks again and see you around,

-- 


<http://www.chucker.rasdi.net>

Post a reply to this message