On Wed, 01 Jan 2003 21:01:45 +0100, "Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde>
wrote:
> > IE 5 Windows
> > Mozilla 1 Windows
> > Konqueror 3.0.1 Linux
>
> Indeed, a good selection of browsers for Mac users ;-)

Well, we have also txt version (it is in included dos archive) so there should
be no problem with the browser in that case ;-)

> Besides, if DocBook and XML are so good, why does the official documentation
> based on a proprietary system of extended HTML work so much better and on
> all browsers?  ;-) ;-) ;-)

That's not the problem of the DocBook idea but problem of rendering process. I
had not much time to customize all features available in free XSL stylesheets
and templates at http://docbook.sourceforge.net/projects/xsl/index.html. Also
I choosed xhtml as target for output for documentation. It is possible to use
'traditional' html. Please, verify:

html chunked: http://megapov.inetart.net/manual/html/index.html
html long: http://megapov.inetart.net/manual/html/megapov01.html

xhtml chunked: http://megapov.inetart.net/manual/index.html
xhtml long: http://megapov.inetart.net/manual/megapov01.html

I have checked xhtml output in validators but noticed only report about missed
alt and unnecessary "xmlns" attribute. Now I rechecked this and it seems
during development there appeared some duplicated ids. I have to investigate
it more. I have already found some bugs in free XSL files and some were fixed
for our release.

ABX

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On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:09:05 +0100, Nicolas Calimet <pov### [at] freefr> wrote:
> > And it also produces so much better PDF output... ;-)
>
>	Not really: see for instance page 19 of the current PDF docs,
> there are not PDF hyperlinks and no thumbnails in the file.

page 19 counting from first or page 19 counting from numbered as "1" ? :-)

In case of some urls there was no <ulink> tag applied. So I have to know what
tag you mean exactly to verify a bug. Please be more specific to help us make
it better.

>	Use PDFLaTex  ;op

Note, we are multienvironment team: windows (development tested on 95, 98, NT
and probably more), linux, mac (various versions) and we need effective but
uniform development. XSLT processors are easier to operate than TeX
environment. I could not force to work any of PDF outputs using TeX. I have
already looked for help with some experienced persons and could not find any.
But DocBook sources are available, if you have some experience, free time and
can provide tutorial how to do it for all mentioned platforms, please help us.

Any help in making MegaPOV documentation better either in appearance and
content is welcome.

ABX

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In article <msp71v8a6018mhh2apioh9anqa6b7om4ov@4ax.com> , ABX 
<abx### [at] abxartpl>  wrote:

> I choosed xhtml as target for output for documentation. It is possible to use
> 'traditional' html. Please, verify:

XHTML???  For what reason would any sane person use XHTML?  On the other
hand, if your goal is to break as many browsers as possible, using XHTML is
fine, of course.

> html chunked: http://megapov.inetart.net/manual/html/index.html

Well, seems to work fine everywhere.  Except that Netscape 4.78 still
doesn't render the preformatted elements correctly.  I really wonder what
you did to break this?!?

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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In article <msp71v8a6018mhh2apioh9anqa6b7om4ov@4ax.com> , ABX 
<abx### [at] abxartpl>  wrote:

> I have checked xhtml output in validators but noticed only report about missed

Don't tell me that is all the testing you did???

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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> That would use huge amounts of memory, and I'm not sure how useful it
> would be. Using accumulation buffers would have big limitaitions, like
> only blurring things on objects seen directly.

Here is a simulated example (http://195.221.122.126/layers/layers.html) to see
what happens
i agree that
- it's probably useless for scene with lots of reflection/refraction
- it allows to tweak, and *fake* stuff (and this can sound like heresy to
ray-tracer integrists :)

M

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Mael wrote:
> 
> > That would use huge amounts of memory, and I'm not sure how useful it
> > would be. Using accumulation buffers would have big limitaitions, like
> > only blurring things on objects seen directly.
> 
> Here is a simulated example (http://195.221.122.126/layers/layers.html) to see
> what happens
> i agree that
> - it's probably useless for scene with lots of reflection/refraction

It is surely more difficult but with an object 'ID' output like Chris Huff
suggested you could generate a mask to post process only certain objects
(like blurring the floor reflection in your case) Of course this would
miss the indirect appearances of that object in other reflections etc. but
this is only relevant in some situations and can often be neglected.

> - it allows to tweak, and *fake* stuff (and this can sound like heresy to
> ray-tracer integrists :)

It is out of question that post processing effects are not as good as
doing things internally but they have great speed advantages.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 31 Dec. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

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On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:17:30 +0100, "Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde>
wrote:
> XHTML???  For what reason would any sane person use XHTML?  On the other
> hand, if your goal is to break as many browsers as possible, using XHTML is
> fine, of course.

I don't remember exact reason why xhtml was used instead of html. I'm sure it
was becouse of some of several DocBook tutorials but can't recall url.
Everyone of us tested documentation versions on his native platform and it
seemed to work. I have also posted a link to you and you said nothing about
not readable pages, so I don't understand so much panic in your sentences :-)
It is a first release mostly concerned on building team, effective environment
and learning cooperation. It worked and we are happy about that. We can now
make it better. Would you like to provide some references according to "sane
persons vs. XHTML" ?

> > html chunked: http://megapov.inetart.net/manual/html/index.html
>
> Well, seems to work fine everywhere.

Then it will be changed probably in the future.

> Except that Netscape 4.78 still
> doesn't render the preformatted elements correctly.  I really wonder what
> you did to break this?!?

Nothing intentionally :-)

ABX

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ABX wrote:
> 
> > XHTML???  For what reason would any sane person use XHTML?  On the other
> > hand, if your goal is to break as many browsers as possible, using XHTML is
> > fine, of course.
> 
> I don't remember exact reason why xhtml was used instead of html. I'm sure it
> was becouse of some of several DocBook tutorials but can't recall url.
> Everyone of us tested documentation versions on his native platform and it
> seemed to work. 

I have compared html and xhtml versions with Netscape 4.x (which is the
only relevant Browser i could test causing problems) and there were no
differences in the result.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 31 Dec. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

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On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:18:14 +0100, "Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde>
wrote:
> > I have checked xhtml output in validators but noticed only report about missed
>
> Don't tell me that is all the testing you did???

As it already appeared in this thread several browsers were checked.

ABX

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In article <do481v8qf80s9tm16632nvel7sg7ei5c9m@4ax.com> , ABX 
<abx### [at] abxartpl>  wrote:

> I don't remember exact reason why xhtml was used instead of html. I'm sure it
> was becouse of some of several DocBook tutorials but can't recall url.
> Everyone of us tested documentation versions on his native platform and it
> seemed to work. I have also posted a link to you and you said nothing about
> not readable pages, so I don't understand so much panic in your sentences :-)

Try this, the problem is the same for all of the links you provide, unless
of course the examples are supposed to look this way?


<http://mac.povray.org/md.gif>


> Would you like to provide some references according to "sane persons vs.
> XHTML" ?

Well, I do with this post. This message completely compiles with long
standing RFC MIME specifications. I hope you get the point now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:46:21 +0100, "Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde>
> Try this, the problem is the same for all of the links you provide, unless
> of course the examples are supposed to look this way?
>
> <http://mac.povray.org/md.gif>

Could it be that your browser ignore that sequence (hex) 0D 0A 20 20 20
appeared in <pre> block for some reason should not be renderen as one space?

The same for: http://megapov.inetart.net/manual/html/test.html ?

> I hope you get the point now.

Ok. Will be htmled in the next release.

ABX

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Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
> 
> <http://mac.povray.org/md.gif>
> 

As i said most of the Netscape problems can be solved by not using the
style sheet.  I already considered making a separate version of the style
sheet for Netscape 4.x but i did not find the time yet.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 31 Dec. 2002 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

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> page 19 counting from first or page 19 counting from numbered as "1" ? :-)

	It's the number written on the top of the page. I just took this
one as an example of the equations being justified on the line (while they
should note). It's really nothing. Just to tell the conversion is not
perfect, as any conversion I suppose  :-)

> Note, we are multienvironment team: windows (development tested on 95, 98, NT
> and probably more), linux, mac (various versions) and we need effective but
> uniform development.

	Sure. This is good. (Don't know if TeX and friends are available
on Mac architectures, though OS X should not be a problem; for windows
it exists for sure). My notice was not meant to be a criticism, but only
a small joke. The work you're doing on MegaPOV and all the things before
is simply amazing...

> if you have some experience, free time and
> can provide tutorial how to do it for all mentioned platforms, please help us.

	I would if I had this free time. At least more than the few minutes
I spend reading the newsgroups and the very good docs that were prepared on
this brand-new MegaPOV.

	Please keep up the good work and don't forget to notice the
smileys I put in my previous message  :-) ;-)

	- NC

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In article <3E143CF8.6AAD01C2@gmx.de> , Christoph Hormann 
<chr### [at] gmxde>  wrote:

>> <http://mac.povray.org/md.gif>
>
> As i said most of the Netscape problems can be solved by not using the
> style sheet.  I already considered making a separate version of the style
> sheet for Netscape 4.x but i did not find the time yet.

Indeed, but the problems are solvable ones one knows the Netscape internal
implementation of stylesheets:  Netscape does not cascade relative so some
internal style sheet for anything but the most elementary formatting (afaik
only for font types and sizes).  So when you assume the cascading works
relative to a complete internal stylesheet, some CSS elements will inherit
the CSS defaults rather than reasonable values.  So the "pre" block in the
CSS simply needs to be completed with

    white-space: pre;

because Netscape uses the default, which is "normal" rather than "pre".

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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In article <7do71v0ei2pe14hld0kppo35d1cuqnpqt3@4ax.com>,
 ABX <abx### [at] abxartpl> wrote:

> Yes, that's exactly I have in mind. I also want to made is as pre-process for
> image-maps.

Well, it would need image input features, some way to read and write 
files. Maybe it could just be allowed to be activated during parsing, 
without the predefined buffers that would be available for post 
processing.

global_settings {
    post_process {IMAGE_PROCESSING_STUFF}
}

process_images {IMAGE_PROCESSING_STUFF}


> Not talking about connecting it with function VM.

Not sure what you meant here..."Not to mention connecting it with a 
function VM."? "I refuse to talk about connecting it with a function 
VM."?

-- 
Christopher James Huff <cja### [at] earthlinknet>
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjameshuff/
POV-Ray TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
http://tag.povray.org/

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In article <1ee81vkknlso5kvbak89vq4mpu7e00d06e@4ax.com> , ABX 
<abx### [at] abxartpl>  wrote:

>> <http://mac.povray.org/md.gif>
>
> Could it be that your browser ignore that sequence (hex) 0D 0A 20 20 20
> appeared in <pre> block for some reason should not be renderen as one space?
>
> The same for: http://megapov.inetart.net/manual/html/test.html ?

No, Netscape has no problem with line-endings (that would be really bad,
wouldn't it ;-)    I explained the problem in my reply to Christoph.  The
following will work just fine:

pre {
  font-family: "Lucida Console","Lucida Sans Typewriter","Courier
New","monospace" ;
  color: #000000 ;
  background-color: #e6f4ff ;
  border: 1px solid ;
  border-color: #cfdbe5 ;
  padding: 3pt;
  white-space: pre ;
}

BTW, note that "Courier New" is a typical M$ font.  People on those
operating systems whose creators were willing to pay the royalties to the
font copyright holders will have fonts with the proper name - "Courier".
They are unlikely to have any of the fonts you list of pre elements as they
are all Windows specific ;-)   If you want to add a good-looking font for
Mac OS, that would be "Monaco", which is also used by Mac text editors by
default.

You may also want to change the order of Verdana, Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif to Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif for the same reason, as
Arial is just a cheap M$ replacement for Helvetica, and Verdana is a M$
invented font...

>> I hope you get the point now.
>
> Ok. Will be htmled in the next release.

You do a lot of readers a favor, thanks a lot!

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

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On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 09:38:31 -0500, Christopher James Huff
<cja### [at] earthlinknet> wrote:
> > Not talking about connecting it with function VM.
>
> Not sure what you meant here..."Not to mention connecting it with a 
> function VM."? "I refuse to talk about connecting it with a function 
> VM."?

I meant that post processed should use user defined functions.

ABX

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In article <3e1450a1$4@news.povray.org> , "Thorsten Froehlich" 
<tho### [at] trfde> wrote:

> You may also want to change the order of Verdana, Arial, Helvetica,
> sans-serif to Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif for the same reason, as
> Arial is just a cheap M$ replacement for Helvetica, and Verdana is a M$
> invented font...

First link via Google gives a good summary of the whole story:
<http://www.google.de/search?q=arial+font+history>

    Thorsten

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

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In article <8h681vsehuqtq66qtnk145c02vqcntqnuj@4ax.com>, abx### [at] abxartpl 
says...
> On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:18:14 +0100, "Thorsten Froehlich" <tho### [at] trfde>
> wrote:
> > > I have checked xhtml output in validators but noticed only report about missed
> >
> > Don't tell me that is all the testing you did???
> 
> As it already appeared in this thread several browsers were checked.
> 
> ABX
> 
Gah... And I thought M$ HTMLHelp's tendency to try to connect to the net 
in some odd cases and the insistence of some programs to try to display 
HTML help files in IE was a nightmare.. Just one question. Why the &$^$% 
does everyone insist on using something to display help that is such a 
resource hog. Yes HTML is more flexible, but to put it in terms I have 
used before, having to rely on IE (or most other browsers) to display 
help files is like using the Exxon Valdize, complete with drunken pilot, 
to deliver a loaf of bread. I don't wouldn't mind using it, but I get 
just a bit tweaked that it rarely works exactly right, wastes so much 
system resources, won't use the browser I tell it too in some cases and 
refuses to stay offline when all the needed files are actually on my 
local machine. Now we have this CSS nonsense, etc.

Sorry about the rant, but as limited as the 'old' help files where, I 
never had as many problems with them and this supposed solution leaves 
something to be desired imho.

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On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:51:51 -0700, Patrick Elliott <sha### [at] hotmailcom>
wrote:
> Sorry about the rant, but as limited as the 'old' help files where, I 
> never had as many problems with them and this supposed solution leaves 
> something to be desired imho.

Test of making old HLP file is on (less important part of) my to do but was
not tested becouse of more important things. I promise to at least test it in
the near future but of course your help is also welcome - documentation
sources are available.

ABX

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In article <jena1vc06eslmc1ed1aliji06u91a7u61o@4ax.com>, abx### [at] abxartpl 
says...
> On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 12:51:51 -0700, Patrick Elliott <sha### [at] hotmailcom>
> wrote:
> > Sorry about the rant, but as limited as the 'old' help files where, I 
> > never had as many problems with them and this supposed solution leaves 
> > something to be desired imho.
> 
> Test of making old HLP file is on (less important part of) my to do but was
> not tested becouse of more important things. I promise to at least test it in
> the near future but of course your help is also welcome - documentation
> sources are available.
> 
> ABX
> 
Well.. The old style are more complicated to create. My rant was HTML 
style help in general. Seems like half the stuff I download now uses them 
and until someone comes up with a viewer that actually does 'just help 
files' and won't load a full browser or try to establish an internet 
connect, having the help be in HTML in such programs will continue to be 
a major pain. ;)

Frankly all I have for generating the old style is the M$ help toolkit 
thing and I haven't gotten around to spending the hours I would need to 
figure out how to make any of it work. They definitely didn't bother to 
try to make creating them all that user friendly. lol

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