Brook Monroe wrote:
> 
> The Y axis is UP?  What country did YOU study geometry in? <G> This is
> going to ruddy well make things difficult to produce in Moray, you know.
> 

Yes.  Hold up sheet of paper.  Draw x-y graph... x goes across the
bottom, y goes up the page... now add z... that goes on sheets of paper
placed in front of or behind your first page.  

Y is UP.

Regards,
Robert J Becraft
aka cas### [at] aolcom

Post a reply to this message

Robert J Becraft wrote:
> 
> Brook Monroe wrote:
> >
> > The Y axis is UP?  What country did YOU study geometry in? <G> This is
> > going to ruddy well make things difficult to produce in Moray, you know.
> >
> 
> Yes.  Hold up sheet of paper.  Draw x-y graph... x goes across the
> bottom, y goes up the page... now add z... that goes on sheets of paper
> placed in front of or behind your first page.
> 
> Y is UP.
> 
> Regards,
> Robert J Becraft
> aka cas### [at] aolcom

Personally I agree - Up with Y.

The only thing is that there is no sensible argument either way: so to
counter my own opinion, and your argument, lets say you leave this piece
of paper on the table where you drew your X and Y axis. Surely the
sensible place for the Z is perpendicular to the other two lines heading
Up.

My argument is asfloorless as the previous one, and therfore equally
floored.

Think on...

Rob

(actually rox### [at] geocitiescom)

Post a reply to this message

Dave Oxspring wrote:

> Robert J Becraft wrote:
> >
> > Brook Monroe wrote:
> > >
> > > The Y axis is UP?  What country did YOU study geometry in? <G> This is
> > > going to ruddy well make things difficult to produce in Moray, you know.
> > >
> >
> > Yes.  Hold up sheet of paper.  Draw x-y graph... x goes across the
> > bottom, y goes up the page... now add z... that goes on sheets of paper
> > placed in front of or behind your first page.
> >
> > Y is UP.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Robert J Becraft
> > aka cas### [at] aolcom
>
> Personally I agree - Up with Y.
>
> The only thing is that there is no sensible argument either way: so to
> counter my own opinion, and your argument, lets say you leave this piece
> of paper on the table where you drew your X and Y axis. Surely the
> sensible place for the Z is perpendicular to the other two lines heading
> Up.
>
> My argument is asfloorless as the previous one, and therfore equally
> floored.
>
> Think on...
>
> Rob
>
> (actually rox### [at] geocitiescom)

  BearFace and I have agreed that he and I both are right, that Z is up AND that
Y is up, and from now on, we're just going to split the difference and say X is
up, just to keep things simple. <G>

jbm!

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 23:11:37 -0500, Brook Monroe
<rin### [at] worldnetattnet> wrote:

>  BearFace and I have agreed that he and I both are right, that Z is up AND that
>Y is up, and from now on, we're just going to split the difference and say X is
>up, just to keep things simple. <G>

Why not just add in a W vector?

Post a reply to this message

Daniel Beeston wrote in message <34a84806.4540198@news.povray.org>...

>Why not just add in a W vector?


I think the 4th vector is T (time).

Eric Freeman

--
"Either this man is dead or my watch has stopped."
- Groucho Marx

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/2354/
http://www.datasync.com/~reba/

Post a reply to this message

And we already have that in POV

Corné
-- 
Please also reply by E-mail.
Please remove the 'no spam' # from my address when replying by E-mail

Eric Freeman <eri### [at] geocitiescom> schreef in artikel
<34c7da88.0@news.povray.org>...
> 
> Daniel Beeston wrote in message <34a84806.4540198@news.povray.org>...
> 
> >Why not just add in a W vector?
> 
> 
> I think the 4th vector is T (time).
> 
> Eric Freeman
> 
> --
> "Either this man is dead or my watch has stopped."
> - Groucho Marx
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/2354/
> http://www.datasync.com/~reba/
> 
> 
> 
>

Post a reply to this message

Robert J Becraft wrote:

> Brook Monroe wrote:
> >
> > The Y axis is UP?  What country did YOU study geometry in? <G> This is
> > going to ruddy well make things difficult to produce in Moray, you know.
> >
>
> Yes.  Hold up sheet of paper.  Draw x-y graph... x goes across the
> bottom, y goes up the page... now add z... that goes on sheets of paper
> placed in front of or behind your first page.
>
> Y is UP.
>
> Regards,
> Robert J Becraft
> aka cas### [at] aolcom

  Study format of U.S. Geological Survey data.  X and Y comprise map surface,
Z is altitude.  We're building a city--geography, not geometry. I rest my
case.

jbm!

Post a reply to this message

Brook Monroe wrote:

> Robert J Becraft wrote:
>
> > Brook Monroe wrote:
> > >
> > > The Y axis is UP?  What country did YOU study geometry in? <G> This is
> > > going to ruddy well make things difficult to produce in Moray, you know.
> > >
> >
> > Yes.  Hold up sheet of paper.  Draw x-y graph... x goes across the
> > bottom, y goes up the page... now add z... that goes on sheets of paper
> > placed in front of or behind your first page.
> >
> > Y is UP.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Robert J Becraft
> > aka cas### [at] aolcom
>
>   Study format of U.S. Geological Survey data.  X and Y comprise map surface,
> Z is altitude.  We're building a city--geography, not geometry. I rest my
> case.
>
> jbm!

 I say who cares.  What's important is that our scenes look good.

Maybe there should be a separate POV-City for those who want to do it the other
way.  I'd be willing to manage it, and I could usually update it once a day, if
needed.

Opinions?

~Kardal~

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2352/povpage.html

Post a reply to this message

Just some ideas I have.....

So have it so that everybody uses the vartiable "Detail" to be able to
remove parts, or the detail of the parts of their scene,
Ie, have say detail = 1 to be the highest, and so one down.
so for my current scene I could say something like
#if(Detail <3)
    do the fence
#else
   do some boxes that approximate the fence
#end
So if the Detail level is 2 or more then the fence will be created in all of
it's glory, or just four boxes that will go where the fence is.
Now if all the plots use the same method for the detail, then you could have
the Detail level defined at the top and have the value trickle down through
the plots.
Another way of doing the detail, so that everybody stays with in the same
boundies, would to make the detail level a distance, so if this part of the
plot is only move into the higher detail level if the camera is within  X
units of the object.
To do this, have the camera position defined as a vector = CameraPos
Then inside each plot use the vlength(thisobjectpos-CameraPos) to provide a
dist from the object inside the plot to the camera, so with the above
example I could change that to,
#if(vlength(FencePos-CameraPos)<5) // 5 units
    lets show the whole fence
#else
    just use the less detailed version
#end
Anyway this is just an idea.......
Now for something slightly different.....
For a river... Would this work...
Create a heightfield, flip it upside down. This would now define the river
bed.
Intersect it with a blue box that has been textured etc, and this would give
the water flowing through the river. I think ??? Not sure . Haven't tried...

Now for the axis bit.  I use the left-handed system, as I have always used a
text editor, and never bothered with a modeler. For me I have always thought
of Y as height, Don't know why, just have so for me I find it easier that
way.

And for the diminsions - I use 1 unit = 1 meter, so to make it work within
the system of 1 unit = 25 meters, I have defined a var called ScaleValue = 1
/25, and at the bottom of my file put

#declare FransPlot =
union {
    object {bit1}
    object {bit2}
    .......
    scale ScaleValue
    translate PlotPos
}

Now when I'm testing my plot I define a var called Testing and use in my
plot file
#ifdef(Testing)
    #declare ScaleValue = 1
#else
    #declare ScaleValue = 1/25
#end

etc.

BTW the usable unit range I have found in POVRay is ~ 1,000,000

Objects that are further than 1,000,000 units away from the camera
disappear, no matter how large they are. Most of the time for a small object
when it is 1,000,000 units away you wouldn't be able to see it anyway, but
if there is a large object like (eg a sun/planet) then suddenly is goes
away. I don't know yet what the smallest part of a unit that is useable, but
I don't think 25 meters to 1 unit is unrealistic. This should mean that you
could model down to around the 1cm region, or (.00004 of a unit), and that
is alot more resolution than I will probably need.

Also if you wanted to do a more detailed part of your own plot on your own
page, then change the above ScaleValue to 1 and render and wot ever you
modeled at.

Just my thoughts on the subject

Till next time.... Fran.

Post a reply to this message

Great thinking, suits me fine if ever I'm going to design a plot.
But young lads not up to that sort of thinking might burn a fuse there
;-) ye know who I'm talking about I guess.


Fran Firman wrote:

> #if(Detail <3)
>     do the fence
> #else
>    do some boxes that approximate the fence
> #end



> #if(vlength(FencePos-CameraPos)<5) // 5 units
>     lets show the whole fence
> #else
>     just use the less detailed version
> #end

Post a reply to this message

Here's another issue that may get us before it's over --- memory.

It's very easy to create a scene --- one building, let alone a whole
city! --- that can consume all available memory even on a well endowed
machine.  Any good trees or plants will definitely be a problem.

I think that it's important to stress to all of the "builders" to be
frugal in their designs.  Perhaps some hard limitations on how much
the "Peak Memory Allocated" value in POV can go up when their scene is
included in a benchmark/baseline file (such as your basic city file
with no one else's scene's included).

Another possiblity, although not a simple one, is to establish a
standard for LOD (Level of Detail) control in the scene and all of its
components.  In such a scheme, when the camera position was mor than a
certain distance away from a given object (or perhaps a whole block)
that object (or in the case of blocks, multiple objects in that block)
would either not be parsed into the scene or would have simpler, less
detailed objects parsed in.   This would allow greater freedom in
creating detailed, memory-pig objects that could be seen in a close-up
render ( or a  fly-through or a walk-through ).  but would not consume
memory when it wasn't necessary.

Perhaps someone out there has already worked out the details of a LOD
control mechanism in POV that we could adopt.

  George

-----------
George Hunt --- Raytracer Obsessivo
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lightsword
102### [at] compuservecom
-----------

Post a reply to this message

Hi Everyone,

Well, lots of ideas and opinions have been put forward here, and I
would like to gather them all together before changing the rules for
POVRayCity.  The main issues, as I see it are :-

1: Scale.  Is 1 unit =25m to tight?  If so what about 1 unit = 10 m,
or  1 unit = 1 m.?

2: Detail level.  I understand and share the concerns about the amount
of detail, and how this could affect rendering as the city grows.
Especially, as has been mentioned, when people start to grow trees
etc.  Personally I favour the idea of "distance from camera" related
detail levels,( as described by Fran Firman) but it would have to be
done in such a manner that relatively inexperienced contributors could
understand.  I also think that the "distance would have to be
definable in one place so that people can easily tweak it to suit.

3: The Plane (grass in the basement)  I'll cut a hole in it, and give
a box as a standard floor which people can cut through and build
around as they wish.

4: Are the plots the right size ?  At current scale they are about 225
m square.

5: It has been pointed out that excluding image maps will be a real
pain for certain things.  How best can these be controlled so as to
avoid duplicate file names?

6: There are several include files which people heve written and
released for public use.  I am happy for these to be included in the
baseline to save people duplicating them, and to make it easier for
everyone in general.
I am happy to add anything that a contributor asks for, as long as the
author has no objections, assuming that it is not too vast.

Good ideas are always welcome, and may be stolen if not nailed down
:-))

Bye for now,

Michael

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:41:10 GMT, mic### [at] enterprisenet (Michael
Kent) wrote:

>5: It has been pointed out that excluding image maps will be a real
>pain for certain things.  How best can these be controlled so as to
>avoid duplicate file names?
I would suggest two things.  One is that all submissions be in a zip
file, even if it is is only one file.  Second, the main directory for
the project would contain only the main scene file and any common
includes that you decide to make part of the project.  Each
contributor would have a single subdirectory off of that main
directory and all files originating with a given author would exist in
his or her directory.

  This eliminates the problem of filename collision, allows a good way
of segregating each contributors pieces of the project and it is
easily facilitated by the ZIP file idea using the "save extra folders
info" (at least that's what it's called in WinZip32 




>1: Scale.  Is 1 unit =25m to tight?  If so what about 1 unit = 10 m,
>or  1 unit = 1 m.?

If those are the choices, I'd go with the last one, 1unit = 1 m.

>2....  I also think that the "distance would have to be
>definable in one place so that people can easily tweak it to suit.

Not sure what you mean by this.

>3
  Good

>4:
  Fine with me

>6:
 OK


-----------
George Hunt --- Raytracer Obsessivo
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lightsword
102### [at] compuservecom
-----------

Post a reply to this message

Hi everyone...

Michael Kent wrote:

<--Snip-->
> 
> 5: It has been pointed out that excluding image maps will be a real
> pain for certain things.  How best can these be controlled so as to
> avoid duplicate file names?
> 
Since every person who wants to build in the city will be assigned their
own place to build and the city is a grid, one solution to naming all
files needed would be to introduce a kind of coordinate system wich
could be used to create a naming convention, for example all files for
the first plot north and east of origo could be prefixed: n1e1, and then
if everyone would name their main file in that way ( n1e1.inc ) it would
be a very simple task including everything in the main cityfile. 

Also there would be no problem with plots covering more than one block (
eg n1-3e1-2.inc ). Anything you wanted could then be appended to the
filename: n1-3e1-2_really_fancy_texturemap.png or whatever.

Well, it's a thought...

//Hans

Post a reply to this message

mic### [at] enterprisenet (Michael Kent) wrote:

>Hi Everyone,
>
>Well, lots of ideas and opinions have been put forward here, and I
>would like to gather them all together before changing the rules for
>POVRayCity.  The main issues, as I see it are :-
>
>1: Scale.  Is 1 unit =25m to tight?  If so what about 1 unit = 10 m,
>or  1 unit = 1 m.?

I would suggest 1 unit = 1 [foot, meter, yard, whatever]. One to one
makes it easier to calculate in your head.

>2: Detail level.  I understand and share the concerns about the amount
>of detail, and how this could affect rendering as the city grows.
>Especially, as has been mentioned, when people start to grow trees
>etc.  Personally I favour the idea of "distance from camera" related
>detail levels,( as described by Fran Firman) but it would have to be
>done in such a manner that relatively inexperienced contributors could
>understand.  I also think that the "distance would have to be
>definable in one place so that people can easily tweak it to suit.

It looks like there have been a number of reasonable suggestions so
far. 

>3: The Plane (grass in the basement)  I'll cut a hole in it, and give
>a box as a standard floor which people can cut through and build
>around as they wish.

A Box sounds good. This would allow for differing 'lawns', basements,
and even underground utility runs.

>4: Are the plots the right size ?  At current scale they are about 225
>m square.

If you change the scale you might want to change the plots to a
'round' number, i.e. 200m sq., again just to make calculations 'in the
head' easier. Although the present system gives you nice even
coordinates yet still leaves space for the 'roads'.

>5: It has been pointed out that excluding image maps will be a real
>pain for certain things.  How best can these be controlled so as to
>avoid duplicate file names?

As has been suggested elsewhere go with a subdirectory structure for
each plot. I would suggest using first initial, middle initial, then
last name, i.e. 'jsfetzik' in my case. It is less likely then just
initials to repeat, but still gives things the 'personal' touch that
coordinate based names would not.

I would also suggest that the same naming convention be used for a
persons objects to be consistent, i.e. jsfetzik_object1.

>6: There are several include files which people heve written and
>released for public use.  I am happy for these to be included in the
>baseline to save people duplicating them, and to make it easier for
>everyone in general.
>I am happy to add anything that a contributor asks for, as long as the
>author has no objections, assuming that it is not too vast.

This sounds like a good idea. I am sure many of these will get used.
Tell everyone that you will take requests. If more then 2 people
request the same include I would consider it for addition. You might
want to make the inclusion conditional in the main file so that
someone can 'turn them off' by just changing one setting.


>Good ideas are always welcome, and may be stolen if not nailed down
>:-))

Might I suggest some form of macro for a plots coordinates. So that
you can relocate a plot without needing to can the 'residents' files.
I am not experienced enough with POV to know how easy or useful this
would be, but it sure could save headaches later.

Post a reply to this message

John S. Fetzik wrote:
> 
> >5: It has been pointed out that excluding image maps will be a real
> >pain for certain things.  How best can these be controlled so as to
> >avoid duplicate file names?
> 
> As has been suggested elsewhere go with a subdirectory structure for
> each plot. I would suggest using first initial, middle initial, then
> last name, i.e. 'jsfetzik' in my case. It is less likely then just
> initials to repeat, but still gives things the 'personal' touch that
> coordinate based names would not.
> 
> I would also suggest that the same naming convention be used for a
> persons objects to be consistent, i.e. jsfetzik_object1.
> 

Bit of a problem with naming the objects with your initials. I think
some of the newbies might be using modellers and don't have a clue as to
how to edit pov files, ie. they did'nt bother reading some of the pov
docs because they are too lazy ;-), so they won't be able to name the
objects themselves unless their modeller allows them to name the objects
within itself...am I making any sense?

Cheers, Matthew

Post a reply to this message

> Bit of a problem with naming the objects with your initials. I think
> some of the newbies might be using modellers and don't have a clue as to
> how to edit pov files, ie. they did'nt bother reading some of the pov
> docs because they are too lazy ;-)

Hey!!!  I resemble that remark!

Jerome "I Love ED" O'Neil

Post a reply to this message

Starting with moray?!  I started and still use raw pov code.  Moray is too
confusing.

~Kardal~

Matthew Mc Clement wrote:

> John S. Fetzik wrote:
> >
> > >5: It has been pointed out that excluding image maps will be a real
> > >pain for certain things.  How best can these be controlled so as to
> > >avoid duplicate file names?
> >
> > As has been suggested elsewhere go with a subdirectory structure for
> > each plot. I would suggest using first initial, middle initial, then
> > last name, i.e. 'jsfetzik' in my case. It is less likely then just
> > initials to repeat, but still gives things the 'personal' touch that
> > coordinate based names would not.
> >
> > I would also suggest that the same naming convention be used for a
> > persons objects to be consistent, i.e. jsfetzik_object1.
> >
>
> Bit of a problem with naming the objects with your initials. I think
> some of the newbies might be using modellers and don't have a clue as to
> how to edit pov files, ie. they did'nt bother reading some of the pov
> docs because they are too lazy ;-), so they won't be able to name the
> objects themselves unless their modeller allows them to name the objects
> within itself...am I making any sense?
>
> Cheers, Matthew

Post a reply to this message

Kardal wrote:
> 
> Starting with moray?!  I started and still use raw pov code.  Moray is too
> confusing.
> 
> ~Kardal~
> 

Yup, you're right, moray is to confusing. I myself tried and then
stopped using it almost immediately. Can't get used to the interface.
Now, Amapi, thats a modeller that has an awesome interface and is free
for a whole year under Linux(generous shareware??). Unfortunately it
only exports pov meshes....well, theres nothing to it, emacs, here I
come!!!!

Cheers, Matthew

Post a reply to this message

Matthew Mc Clement wrote:

> Kardal wrote:
> >
> > Starting with moray?!  I started and still use raw pov code.  Moray is too
> > confusing.
>
> Yup, you're right, moray is to [sic] confusing. I myself tried and then
> stopped using it almost immediately. Can't get used to the interface.

Obviously you've never seen AutoCAD.  THAT's confusing.  Moray is the
least-confusing CAD interface I've ever seen, and I'm very surprised to find
this opinion voiced.  What is it that you find so confusing?  (I'm a
Moray-for-Windows beta-tester, BTW.)

jbm!

Post a reply to this message

Brook Monroe wrote:
> 
> Matthew Mc Clement wrote:
> 
> > Yup, you're right, moray is to [sic] confusing. I myself tried and then
> > stopped using it almost immediately. Can't get used to the interface.
> 
> Obviously you've never seen AutoCAD.  THAT's confusing.  Moray is the
> least-confusing CAD interface I've ever seen, and I'm very surprised to find
> this opinion voiced.  What is it that you find so confusing?  (I'm a
> Moray-for-Windows beta-tester, BTW.)
> 
> jbm!

Well, I just can't get used to the interface. It bugs me for some
reason. If you run Linux try Amapi(http://www.yonowat.com). The
interface is totaly original, and I have been using it for about 6
months now, and I guess I've just gotten to used to it. I can't even use
basic modellers like Breeze Designer, Povlab, GUM, just to name a few.
PovsB is about the only windows modeller I can use. Of the dos modellers
I can use MNM but thats USE, I am by no means a pro at it. In fact I
have trouble with most modellers. The ones I can use best are Amapi(of
course :)), Truespace 2, Extreme 3D, Infini-D(only a little), PovsB and
MNM. Imagine, 3DS, Lightwave just seem too confusing for some reason or
another....which is a pitty as Truespace is the only modeller that
supports reasonably easy and good animation effects...sigh!

Cheers, Matthew

P.S. I have tried Autocad 14 and yeah, you're right, it is a bit
confusing ;-). Microstation is nice, but even the student licenses are a
bit heavy(£700 last time I checked).

Post a reply to this message

Matthew Mc Clement wrote:

> Well, I just can't get used to the interface. It bugs me for some
> reason. If you run Linux try Amapi(http://www.yonowat.com).

Nope.  Can't run Linux.  Too used to MS Office.  (Weak reasoning, perhaps, but by
now it's a habit.)

> The interface is totaly original,

Actually, I find that a frightening thought. :)

> and I have been using it for about 6
> months now, and I guess I've just gotten to used to it. I can't even use
> basic modellers like Breeze Designer, Povlab, GUM, just to name a few.

I'll agree with you there.

> PovsB is about the only windows modeller I can use. Of the dos modellers
> I can use MNM but thats USE, I am by no means a pro at it. In fact I
> have trouble with most modellers. The ones I can use best are Amapi(of
> course :)), Truespace 2, Extreme 3D, Infini-D(only a little), PovsB and
> MNM. Imagine, 3DS, Lightwave just seem too confusing for some reason or
> another....which is a pitty as Truespace is the only modeller that
> supports reasonably easy and good animation effects...sigh!
>

I never could figure out Truespace's UI.  I tried it for several versions and I
still couldn't figure out how to do the simplest thing.  Lightwave I had more
success at, except for getting the lighting right.

Of course, I program for a living.  I don't do rendering for a living.  (And some
say you can tell that from my work.)

jbm!

Post a reply to this message

Brook Monroe wrote:

> Matthew Mc Clement wrote:
>
> > Kardal wrote:
> > >
> > > Starting with moray?!  I started and still use raw pov code.  Moray is too
> > > confusing.
> >
> > Yup, you're right, moray is to [sic] confusing. I myself tried and then
> > stopped using it almost immediately. Can't get used to the interface.
>
> Obviously you've never seen AutoCAD.  THAT's confusing.  Moray is the
> least-confusing CAD interface I've ever seen, and I'm very surprised to find
> this opinion voiced.  What is it that you find so confusing?  (I'm a
> Moray-for-Windows beta-tester, BTW.)
>
> jbm!

  I've been spoiled by the powerful and expensive CADKey 97 (www.cadkey.com).
Unfortunatley, I can't use it for pov because there is no cheap direct, or even
indirect, way to export to pov.  It exports Autocad DXF files, but I haven't found
a good DXF to Anything I Can Use converter.

I'll have to wait and see what the windows version looks like.

~Kardal~

Post a reply to this message

Kardal wrote:

> Brook Monroe wrote:
>
> I've been spoiled by the powerful and expensive CADKey 97 (www.cadkey.com).

Oh, ~expensive~.  Well, I was going to look, but I can't afford expensive right now.

> Unfortunatley, I can't use it for pov because there is no cheap direct, or even
> indirect, way to export to pov.  It exports Autocad DXF files, but I haven't found
> a good DXF to Anything I Can Use converter.
>

Any of the DXF-to-POV converters I've seen produce less than useful results because
you can't tag different parts of the object with different textures--everything comes
out as a monolithic mesh.  That's not much use when you're rendering an F-14 or
what-have-you.  The Win32 version still sports the 4-view interface, which is what
attracted me to Moray in the first place.  (That, and the lack of that annoying
"command-line" thing that AutoCad and MNM do.)

jbm!

Post a reply to this message

There is one out there, I had it a while ago and lost the zip of
it...you can export dxf-pov and either label parts with a texture
(pov-original) before export or in the pov code the parts are either
union triangles or bicubics, separate, and can be re textured.

It very much depends on the original dxf, I've found - some let you
export parts, other seem to be one unit...???
-- 
** Lets clean up the world - kill a politician today!!
** The only good politician is a dead politician.
** To email me: bay### [at] coastlinkcomau
** Believe 1% of what you see or hear.
** Always read between the lines.

Post a reply to this message

BearFace wrote:
> 
> There is one out there, I had it a while ago and lost the zip of
> it...you can export dxf-pov and either label parts with a texture
> (pov-original) before export or in the pov code the parts are either
> union triangles or bicubics, separate, and can be re textured.
> 
> It very much depends on the original dxf, I've found - some let you
> export parts, other seem to be one unit...???

Actually it really depends on the program you are importing the dxf
into. dxf supports both layers and different colours for the various
parts. For example: Extreme 3d imports dxf files but for some reason
totaly ignores the layers. If you want sperate the pieces you need to
make them different colours even although extreme 3d supports layers??!!
On the other hand, Breeze Designer just imports the dxf file as a big
mesh(actually as a 2d dxf extrusion I think but its about the same
thing) and so you can't texturize the seperate parts.

what it all sums up as is that I personally hate the dxf format because
the files are large and clumsy. I'd have prefered it if the .3ds format
was standard as its files are more compact. Admittedly it is binary and
I think there may be problems with transfering it between to types of
computers but then you can just use .asc files which are the plain text
versions of 3ds files....

Cheers, Matthew

P.S. Have you tried WCVT2POV? Wriiten by Keith Rule. Try a serach on
altavista as I've lost the url to his webpage....

Post a reply to this message

Matthew Mc Clement wrote:

> BearFace wrote:
> >
> > There is one out there, I had it a while ago and lost the zip of
> > it...you can export dxf-pov and either label parts with a texture
> > (pov-original) before export or in the pov code the parts are either
> > union triangles or bicubics, separate, and can be re textured.
> >
> > It very much depends on the original dxf, I've found - some let you
> > export parts, other seem to be one unit...???
>
> Actually it really depends on the program you are importing the dxf
> into. dxf supports both layers and different colours for the various
> parts. For example: Extreme 3d imports dxf files but for some reason
> totaly ignores the layers. If you want sperate the pieces you need to
> make them different colours even although extreme 3d supports layers??!!
> On the other hand, Breeze Designer just imports the dxf file as a big
> mesh(actually as a 2d dxf extrusion I think but its about the same
> thing) and so you can't texturize the seperate parts.
>
> what it all sums up as is that I personally hate the dxf format because
> the files are large and clumsy. I'd have prefered it if the .3ds format
> was standard as its files are more compact. Admittedly it is binary and
> I think there may be problems with transfering it between to types of
> computers but then you can just use .asc files which are the plain text
> versions of 3ds files....
>
> Cheers, Matthew
>
> P.S. Have you tried WCVT2POV? Wriiten by Keith Rule. Try a serach on
> altavista as I've lost the url to his webpage....

 Tried it, did not work.  Shame.

~Kardal~

Post a reply to this message

I would bet that Crossroads(the new and improved version of WCVT2POV) would
convert it. Try it out.

Kardal wrote:

> Matthew Mc Clement wrote:
>
> > BearFace wrote:
> > >
> > > There is one out there, I had it a while ago and lost the zip of
> > > it...you can export dxf-pov and either label parts with a texture
> > > (pov-original) before export or in the pov code the parts are either
> > > union triangles or bicubics, separate, and can be re textured.
> > >
> > > It very much depends on the original dxf, I've found - some let you
> > > export parts, other seem to be one unit...???
> >
> > Actually it really depends on the program you are importing the dxf
> > into. dxf supports both layers and different colours for the various
> > parts. For example: Extreme 3d imports dxf files but for some reason
> > totaly ignores the layers. If you want sperate the pieces you need to
> > make them different colours even although extreme 3d supports layers??!!
> > On the other hand, Breeze Designer just imports the dxf file as a big
> > mesh(actually as a 2d dxf extrusion I think but its about the same
> > thing) and so you can't texturize the seperate parts.
> >
> > what it all sums up as is that I personally hate the dxf format because
> > the files are large and clumsy. I'd have prefered it if the .3ds format
> > was standard as its files are more compact. Admittedly it is binary and
> > I think there may be problems with transfering it between to types of
> > computers but then you can just use .asc files which are the plain text
> > versions of 3ds files....
> >
> > Cheers, Matthew
> >
> > P.S. Have you tried WCVT2POV? Wriiten by Keith Rule. Try a serach on
> > altavista as I've lost the url to his webpage....
>
>  Tried it, did not work.  Shame.
>
> ~Kardal~



--
                    Bryan Cool
   **********
       http://xoom.com/Cool3d/ - Cool3D
            ********************************
       http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/5621/
             Bryan Cool's Web of Spider-Man

Post a reply to this message

Michael,

	If you see this please give me a city block number!  I
	have sent email twice, perhaps it did not get through.

_John Miskinis_

Post a reply to this message

John,

On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:38:35 -0500, John Miskinis <mis### [at] emccom>
wrote:

>Michael,
>
>	If you see this please give me a city block number!  I
>	have sent email twice, perhaps it did not get through.
>
>_John Miskinis_


I have replied twice !

Did you get any of them ?  If not, what is your e-mail address?

I've tried mis### [at] emccom, which bounced, and mis### [at] milemccom
and mis### [at] docmilemccom which didn't bounce.

Bye for now

Michael

----------------------------------

Copied message:-

Hello John,

John Miskinis wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>         This was/is a very cool idea.  I would like to join this
>         effort.  Please assign me a "spot", and I'll create a
>         basic scene, and build on it over time.

Thanks John.
Your block has been claimed.  I'll be updating my homepage soon with a
guide for builders, but briefly, this is all you should need to get
started.

The blocks are +112.5 units in the X and Z directions( 225m square),
+Y is up,and yours is the block whose centre is translated < -125, 0,
-875 >
from the origin. The scale is 1 unit = 1 metre.

The ground for the city is a plane with a 1000 unit deep box cut from
it
under the city to allow cunstruction below ground level.  This means 
that your file will need to contain your own ground, with a line
something
like this:-

box {<-112.5,0,-112.5> <112.5,-.1,112.5> translate < -125, 0, -875 >
pigment
 {color rgb <0.1,0.8,0.1>}}

Your contribution can use bitmaps and multiple .inc files, but should
be
sent as one compressed file if possible.  To avoid file name clashes I
am
allocating everyone a prefix for their filenames, yours is "bb".
Please 
start all of your filenames with this, and please use only lower case
in 
your filenames.

I look forward to seeing your contribution,

Bye for now

Michael

Post a reply to this message

I think that maybe it's time to start a new VR Plot thread, this one is 15
messages deep!

~Kardal~

P.S.  My plot update is coming in a week or so.

Michael Kent wrote:

> John,
>
> On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:38:35 -0500, John Miskinis <mis### [at] emccom>
> wrote:
>
> >Michael,
> >
> >       If you see this please give me a city block number!  I
> >       have sent email twice, perhaps it did not get through.
> >
> >_John Miskinis_
>
> I have replied twice !
>
> Did you get any of them ?  If not, what is your e-mail address?
>
> I've tried mis### [at] emccom, which bounced, and mis### [at] milemccom
> and mis### [at] docmilemccom which didn't bounce.
>
> Bye for now
>
> Michael
>
> ----------------------------------
>
> Copied message:-
>
> Hello John,
>
> John Miskinis wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >         This was/is a very cool idea.  I would like to join this
> >         effort.  Please assign me a "spot", and I'll create a
> >         basic scene, and build on it over time.
>
> Thanks John.
> Your block has been claimed.  I'll be updating my homepage soon with a
> guide for builders, but briefly, this is all you should need to get
> started.
>
> The blocks are +112.5 units in the X and Z directions( 225m square),
> +Y is up,and yours is the block whose centre is translated < -125, 0,
> -875 >
> from the origin. The scale is 1 unit = 1 metre.
>
> The ground for the city is a plane with a 1000 unit deep box cut from
> it
> under the city to allow cunstruction below ground level.  This means
> that your file will need to contain your own ground, with a line
> something
> like this:-
>
> box {<-112.5,0,-112.5> <112.5,-.1,112.5> translate < -125, 0, -875 >
> pigment
>  {color rgb <0.1,0.8,0.1>}}
>
> Your contribution can use bitmaps and multiple .inc files, but should
> be
> sent as one compressed file if possible.  To avoid file name clashes I
> am
> allocating everyone a prefix for their filenames, yours is "bb".
> Please
> start all of your filenames with this, and please use only lower case
> in
> your filenames.
>
> I look forward to seeing your contribution,
>
> Bye for now
>
> Michael

Post a reply to this message

Kardal wrote:
> 
> I think that maybe it's time to start a new VR Plot thread, this 
> one is 15 messages deep!
> 

Or possibly a newsgroup to itself since this is an ongoing project.

--
Andy McCoy

Post a reply to this message

Sound good to me.

Corné
-- 
Please also reply by E-mail.
Please remove the 'no spam' # from my address when replying by E-mail

Andy McCoy <sau### [at] mordorthoorg> schreef in artikel
<34BD51C6.12ED989E@mordor.tho.org>...
> Kardal wrote:
> > 
> > I think that maybe it's time to start a new VR Plot thread, this 
> > one is 15 messages deep!
> > 
> 
> Or possibly a newsgroup to itself since this is an ongoing project.
> 
> --
> Andy McCoy
>

Post a reply to this message

> 
>   I've been spoiled by the powerful and expensive CADKey 97
(www.cadkey.com).
> Unfortunatley, I can't use it for pov because there is no cheap direct,
or even
> indirect, way to export to pov.  It exports Autocad DXF files, but I
haven't found
> a good DXF to Anything I Can Use converter.
> 

I have wrote a raw file output option in ACIS that will output grouped
triangles for each face.  Raw output would be real easy for CADKey
to do since it uses ACIS.  I know the developer that works on CADKey
and I'll see if he can put in the option for raw output.  

Once you have the raw file you can then import it into modelers like
PoVSB that can handle grouped raw files.

	Jeff

--
Jeff Hauswirth			Spatial Technology
Software Engineer		2425 55th Street
303-449-0649x1315		Boulder CO, 80301
jha### [at] spatialcom		http://www.spatial.com/

Post a reply to this message

Jeff Hauswirth wrote:

> >
> >   I've been spoiled by the powerful and expensive CADKey 97
> (www.cadkey.com).
> > Unfortunatley, I can't use it for pov because there is no cheap direct,
> or even
> > indirect, way to export to pov.  It exports Autocad DXF files, but I
> haven't found
> > a good DXF to Anything I Can Use converter.
> >
>
> I have wrote a raw file output option in ACIS that will output grouped
> triangles for each face.  Raw output would be real easy for CADKey
> to do since it uses ACIS.  I know the developer that works on CADKey
> and I'll see if he can put in the option for raw output.
>
> Once you have the raw file you can then import it into modelers like
> PoVSB that can handle grouped raw files.
>
>         Jeff
>

Interesting.  However, most of what you said is greek to me.

If you know CADKey, then you should be able to find out the different formats
it exports to, I don't have them handy.  My school is dedicated to that
program, but if I can get a CADKey2POVRay converter, ANYTHING will be
possible.

Since it is presently Christmas Break here, I won't be able to get you a list
of formats for a couple weeks, but if you need them I can get them.

~Kardal~

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/2352/povpage.html

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:41:10 GMT, mic### [at] enterprisenet (Michael
Kent) wrote:


>1: Scale.  Is 1 unit =25m to tight?  If so what about 1 unit = 10 m,
>or  1 unit = 1 m.?
For easy manipulation it's easier group the entire block in a union
object anyway. Thus doing a detailed blobk then shrinking it down
should work fine but remember that really tiny objects and really
large ones start to produce errors. Try doing the solar system to
scale and you'll know what I mean.

>2: Detail level.  I understand and share the concerns about the amount
>of detail, and how this could affect rendering as the city grows.
Well perhaps this peak memory usage idea should be confirmed. Every
block has a certain amount of memory alloted. But what should it be.
Also perhaps some standard tree objects should be defined as triangle
objects then refered to as meshes. It is my understanding that they
only need to be put into memory once then. Also I think that Mapping
of any kind should be shyied away from or kept to quite small gifs (or
png's whatever's smaller). You can do some pretty clever stuff with 3d
textures. The idea of having a detail level is good but it should
probably be declared as detail = off  and detail = on. Then restrict
each block to use a predefined memory usage when on and a smaller
predifined one when off.

Remember that in order to merge the city together well some standards
should probably be met with textures. Perhaps the Ambient values
should be decided beforehand. I know that for bright daytime scenes I
have a fairly high ambient value but for late afternoon scenes I lower
it. A distint time of day should be defined as well as a lighting
setup. After it's finished these can be changed quite easily from
scene to scene.

Just one more question. Who's doing the roads?

Post a reply to this message

Michael Kent wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've decided that it's time for POVRay to have a place to live [...]

The concept is fascinating, Micheal.

I've downloaded the zip file and attempted to render it on my
Linux box. The Linux version of POVRay uses lower case names
for it's include files and is case sensative. This means that
POVRay for Linux can't grok the upper case DOS/Win95 include
file name convention.

If the Win95 version of POVRay is case INsensative w/r/t file
names in #include statements, could I persuade you to edit
city.pov and change the file names to lower case as a convenience,
to us Unix users?

If this can't be done, then another way to fix the problem is for
Unix users to make symbolic links from the supplied include files
to their upper case equivalents (e.g "ln -s atmos.inc ATMOS.INC", etc.)

Post a reply to this message

Michael Kent wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I've decided that it's time for POVRay to have a place to live, a
> place to call home, so I'm building it a city.
> The first phase of the building is a series of 9 * 9 blocks, with
> roads 1 unit wide seperating them.
> Phase 2 will be a park, shopping complex, residential area and
> whatever else I think of.
>
> If YOU would like to build in POVRay City mail me and I will allocate
> you a plot.  You then mail me your scene file, and I will "include" it
> in the city scene file.  I will put all of the scene files on my web
> page so that anyone who wants to can get them and trace the city.
>
> Anyone interested ????

    Hi!  Well, I'm still a VERY newbie in POV, but that's a terrific
idea!  When you have things underway, post again so that I can go and see
your progress!

    Best of luck,

Dana

Post a reply to this message

Jeez, you must be replying to a very oulde post, I remember taking part in
their discussions about the virtual POV city a good number of months back.
Kent actually got around to build it and it was really going a fine way, I
don't know what happened it since, I lost the URL and never looked for it
(too busy) but I would think this project is still well alive, and if it is,
it must be quite advanced.
Maybe by looking in the archives (are there any archives for these mailing
groups, I don't even know) if there are any, might lead you to the URL, else
a web search, ...
I remember a few nice looking pictures for the start of the project.

See ya,
Al.


Dana Dauphinee wrote:

> Michael Kent wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I've decided that it's time for POVRay to have a place to live, a
> > place to call home, so I'm building it a city.
> > The first phase of the building is a series of 9 * 9 blocks, with
> > roads 1 unit wide seperating them.
> > Phase 2 will be a park, shopping complex, residential area and
> > whatever else I think of.
> >
> > If YOU would like to build in POVRay City mail me and I will allocate
> > you a plot.  You then mail me your scene file, and I will "include" it
> > in the city scene file.  I will put all of the scene files on my web
> > page so that anyone who wants to can get them and trace the city.
> >
> > Anyone interested ????
>
>     Hi!  Well, I'm still a VERY newbie in POV, but that's a terrific
> idea!  When you have things underway, post again so that I can go and see
> your progress!
>
>     Best of luck,
>
> Dana



--
ANTI SPAM / ANTI ARROSAGE COMMERCIAL :
Pour me répondre, veuillez enlever le Z de mon adresse.
To answer me, please take out the Z from my address.

Post a reply to this message

Kardal wrote:
>  I say who cares.  What's important is that our scenes look good.
> 
> Maybe there should be a separate POV-City for those who want to do it the other
> way.  I'd be willing to manage it, and I could usually update it once a day, if
> needed.
> 
> Opinions?
> 
> ~Kardal~
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2352/povpage.html

What for?  You can rotate the scene any way you like and even make the
x-axis be up  :-)

Post a reply to this message

Hi,

>Jeez, you must be replying to a very oulde post, I remember taking part in
>their discussions about the virtual POV city a good number of months back.
>Kent actually got around to build it and it was really going a fine way, I
>don't know what happened it since, I lost the URL and never looked for it
>(too busy) but I would think this project is still well alive, and if it
is,
>it must be quite advanced.

The url is:
http://homepages.enterprise.net/michaelkent/povraycity/scenes.html

Haven't been there for some weeks though, so I don't know if this url is
still valid.

********************************************
Sebastian Strand
sebastian.strand *AT* pp.inet.fi
http://personal.inet.fi/cool/dragon/vb/
********************************************

Post a reply to this message

Sebastian Strand wrote:

> The url is:
> http://homepages.enterprise.net/michaelkent/povraycity/scenes.html


Well, since you posted this, I kept trying accessing that and the only message
I got was 'sorry, that directory does not exist on this server'  or a similar
message. I also tried a Michael Kent search (Altavista) and a Povraycity
search, but I only came up with a few individuals who all referred back to the
main Povraycity web site as you did, ... which leads to no-where.
So if someone proves me wrong, please explain : new URL ? Dead project ?
Suspended ? It sounded interesting though and even though I did not really want
to take part in it, I would enjoy to see the progress and results.

Cheers,
Al.

--
ANTI SPAM / ANTI ARROSAGE COMMERCIAL :
Pour me répondre, veuillez enlever le Z de mon adresse.
To answer me, please take out the Z from my address.

Post a reply to this message

Sign me up for a piece of your land.

Jack Rivers
omr### [at] sydcomnet


Michael Kent wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I've decided that it's time for POVRay to have a place to live, a
> place to call home, so I'm building it a city.
> The first phase of the building is a series of 9 * 9 blocks, with
> roads 1 unit wide seperating them.
> Phase 2 will be a park, shopping complex, residential area and
> whatever else I think of.
>
> If YOU would like to build in POVRay City mail me and I will allocate
> you a plot.  You then mail me your scene file, and I will "include" it
> in the city scene file.  I will put all of the scene files on my web
> page so that anyone who wants to can get them and trace the city.
>
> Anyone interested ????
>
> HTTP://homepages.enterprise.net/michaelkent
> e-mail mic### [at] enterprisenet
> Fidonet 2:258/69.10

Post a reply to this message

> Michael Kent wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I've decided that it's time for POVRay to have a place to live, a
> > place to call home, so I'm building it a city.

Is POV-Ray city back? It would be great!

a.c### [at] iolit
www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/8111/

Post a reply to this message

Alessandro Coppo wrote:
> 
> > Michael Kent wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > I've decided that it's time for POVRay to have a place to live, a
> > > place to call home, so I'm building it a city.
> 
> Is POV-Ray city back? It would be great!
> 
> a.c### [at] iolit
> www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/8111/

It's predecessor. Pov Main Street, can be found at:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6080/

-- 
Ken Tyler
  
mailto://tylereng@pacbell.net
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/links.htm

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

> It's predecessor, Pov Main Street, can be found at:

Predecessor was not the correct term since Pov Main Street is the continuation
of the original. 

-- 
Ken Tyler
  
mailto://tylereng@pacbell.net
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/links.htm

Post a reply to this message

>>Predecessor was not the correct term since Pov Main Street is the
continuation
>>of the original.

Yea!  And with one contributor and my stuff, it's a pretty neked place.

All I ask is for a building or two from each contributor... in metric scale
1 meter=1 pov unit.

Robert J Becraft
aka cas### [at] aolcom

Post a reply to this message

Robert J Becraft wrote:

> Yea!  And with one contributor and my stuff, it's a pretty neked place.
> 
> All I ask is for a building or two from each contributor... in metric scale
> 1 meter=1 pov unit.
> 
> Robert J Becraft
> aka cas### [at] aolcom

Who won the argument in this thread about Y = UP ?

-- 
Ken Tyler
  
mailto://tylereng@pacbell.net
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/links.htm

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:
> 
> Who won the argument in this thread about Y = UP ?
> 

This argument can be won?!
Without military backup?

Margus

Post a reply to this message

Margus Ramst wrote:
> 
> Ken wrote:
> >
> > Who won the argument in this thread about Y = UP ?
> >
> 
> This argument can be won?!
> Without military backup?
> 
> Margus

  Well I have been threatening to nuke people over on c.g.r.r. I could as
easily extend the same courtesy warning here ; >)

-- 
Ken Tyler
  
mailto://tylereng@pacbell.net
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/links.htm

Post a reply to this message