The J programming Language.
J is a modern, high-level, general-purpose, high-performance programming
language. J is portable and runs on Windows, Unix, Mac, and PocketPC
handhelds. J runs both as a GUI and in a console (command line).

http://www.jsoftware.com/

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> http://www.jsoftware.com/

	Personnally I would have called this language "YACLOT" for
Yet Another Cryptic Language of the Old Times  ;-)

	(this remarks comes after looking only two minutes at the
examples presented on the webpage above)

	- NC

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In article <3f952271@news.povray.org>,
 Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:

> J is a modern, high-level, general-purpose, high-performance programming
> language. J is portable and runs on Windows, Unix, Mac, and PocketPC
> handhelds. J runs both as a GUI and in a console (command line).

Consider for what? You can't seriously be suggesting that POV be 
implemented in this language...and it looks like it would be a terrible 
scene description language. It looks like it is intended for interactive 
use...something along the same lines might be useful in a modeller, 
though hopefully with a more intuitive syntax.

-- 
Christopher James Huff <cja### [at] earthlinknet>
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjameshuff/
POV-Ray TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
http://tag.povray.org/

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J is particularly strong in the mathematical, statistical, and logical 
analysis of arrays of data. It is a powerful tool in building new and 
better solutions to old problems and even better at finding solutions 
where the problem is not already well understood.

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Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> J is particularly strong in the mathematical, statistical, and logical 
> analysis of arrays of data. It is a powerful tool in building new and 
> better solutions to old problems and even better at finding solutions 
> where the problem is not already well understood.

  The relevance of this in raytracing is to be questioned.

  A raytracer does not need to analyse arrays of data. A raytracer needs
to be fast.
  Will this language help POV-Ray be as fast as possible?

  Unless this language has a better native compiler than the ones
available for C/C++ or unless it will help POV-Ray resolve ray-shape
intersections, lighting calculations, etc a lot faster, it's of
little use.

  The crude truth is that speed is basically the *only* important
thing in a raytracer.
  If you can make the source code look a lot nicer using language xyz
but the resulting program is 5 times slower than one made in C, then
it only has a curiosity value, no real value.

  (Well-coded) C++ is a very good compromise between speed and
source-code quality. C++ is basically as fast as C, but you have
tons of OO properties to design your program better.
  Unless this J language can create binaries which are as fast
as C++, I don't see any real reason for using it in practice for
POV-Ray.

-- 
plane{-x+y,-1pigment{bozo color_map{[0rgb x][1rgb x+y]}turbulence 1}}
sphere{0,2pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{emission 1density{spherical
density_map{[0rgb 0][.5rgb<1,.5>][1rgb 1]}turbulence.9}}}scale
<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -

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Warp wrote:

  >   The relevance of this in raytracing is to be questioned.

Have you read the subject? that is EXACTLY THE POINT!!! Mr. knew it 
all!!! And for the POV-Team to consider, not you!

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On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 04:44:57 -0400, Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> > The relevance of this in raytracing is to be questioned.
>
> Have you read the subject? that is EXACTLY THE POINT!!! Mr. knew it 
> all!!! And for the POV-Team to consider, not you!

Warp is TAG member as you know.

"TAG members are not members of the POV-Team. They are, however, an official
conduit between us and the outside world. They have direct access to all
members of the POV-Team. They have the right to speak on our behalf on the POV
news server and on any official mailing lists that we set up for this purpose.
Not everything they say will be official; only when they sign it as such. They
can still act as 'themselves' and have their own opinions at all other times."

There is also manual with chapter "Contacting the authors"

"(..) please visit our web site for the latest contact information, or see the
online version of POVLEGAL for the current team co-ordinators address (..)
Finally, there is also a dedicated Technical Assistance Group consisting of a
number of trusted, experienced POV-Ray users."

ABX

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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> 
> 
> Warp wrote:
> 
>  >   The relevance of this in raytracing is to be questioned.
> 
> Have you read the subject? that is EXACTLY THE POINT!!! Mr. knew it 
> all!!! And for the POV-Team to consider, not you!

The fact that no one from the POV-Team replied to your posts does not 
mean that it would not be a good idea to answer to the questions posed 
by the others who replied.  If you really have strong arguments that 
this language could be of use for POV-Ray (i have my doubts, you have 
not shown any arguments concerning POV-Ray yet) you should post them.

And the tone of your reply is not appropriate.  Please read the AUP in 
povray.announce.frequently-asked-questions.

Christoph

-- 
POV-Ray tutorials, include files, Sim-POV,
HCR-Edit and more: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0013390/
Last updated 2 Sep. 2003 _____./\/^>_*_<^\/\.______

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You are right about everything. I let myself be misunderstood. I
apologize for this. I wrote to this user this way because he has write
to others in the same AND even more rude tone. I know that is a "right"
for everybody to write in this newsgroup server, but users, like this
one, who offend others, even if they are at the TAG, should be moderated
by a superior authority or be expelled. A user (Bill DeWitt) at
povray.off-topic said that he has write to his private e-mail address in
a rude way and even insulted him, and he talks rude to the people he
writes in that thread, and i read other threads where he writes the same
way and i was seek of it. I apologize once again to whom i could offend
with my previous post, that wasn't by intention, except for Warp. For
all this i think he should be punished and be expelled from the TAG
because a person with that attitude doesn't deserves to belong to that
group. As an opposed example, Ken Tyler is a TAG member and he is always
very polite and friendly when he writes, ìs an example to follow, even
for me.

Christoph Hormann wrote:

> Saul Luizaga wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> Warp wrote:
>>
>>  >   The relevance of this in raytracing is to be questioned.
>>
>> Have you read the subject? that is EXACTLY THE POINT!!! Mr. knew it 
>> all!!! And for the POV-Team to consider, not you!
> 
> 
> The fact that no one from the POV-Team replied to your posts does not 
> mean that it would not be a good idea to answer to the questions posed 
> by the others who replied.  If you really have strong arguments that 
> this language could be of use for POV-Ray (i have my doubts, you have 
> not shown any arguments concerning POV-Ray yet) you should post them.
> 
> And the tone of your reply is not appropriate.  Please read the AUP in 
> povray.announce.frequently-asked-questions.
> 
> Christoph
>

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In article <3f9671e1@news.povray.org>,
 Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:

> You are right about everything. I let myself be misunderstood. I
> apologize for this. I wrote to this user this way because he has write
> to others in the same AND even more rude tone. I know that is a "right"
> for everybody to write in this newsgroup server, but users, like this
> one, who offend others, even if they are at the TAG, should be moderated
> by a superior authority or be expelled. A user (Bill DeWitt) at
> povray.off-topic said that he has write to his private e-mail address in
> a rude way and even insulted him, and he talks rude to the people he
> writes in that thread, and i read other threads where he writes the same
> way and i was seek of it. I apologize once again to whom i could offend
> with my previous post, that wasn't by intention, except for Warp. For
> all this i think he should be punished and be expelled from the TAG
> because a person with that attitude doesn't deserves to belong to that
> group. As an opposed example, Ken Tyler is a TAG member and he is always
> very polite and friendly when he writes, ìs an example to follow, even
> for me.

Now stop being childish. If you have a complaint about how Warp has 
treated you, this is not the way to go about it. Warp's message was 
informative and straightforward, not insulting or offensive, and 
certainly didn't deserve this sort of response. Warp doesn't deserve the 
impression you give of him, either.

And as for "And for the POV-Team to consider, not you!", Warp is a 
member of the POV-Ray TAG. One of the functions of the TAG is to serve 
as public representatives of the POV-Team. Aside from giving assistence 
to users of the program, we filter out useless stuff and bring important 
information to the attention of the POV Team. You have not given any 
reasons that would make J worth the time to look at. Warp was simply 
doing his job as a TAG member.

-- 
Christopher James Huff <cja### [at] earthlinknet>
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjameshuff/
POV-Ray TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
http://tag.povray.org/

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Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> I wrote to this user this way because he has write
> to others in the same AND even more rude tone.

  I don't understand why you conclude that because I have a public
confrontation with Bill DeWitt (granted, I should simply ignore him
because he is nothing more than a troll, but sometimes his insults
simply make me crazy) means that I was rude to you.
  You make the assumption that since I reply rudely to one person
on povray.off-topic, it means that every (disagreeing) post of mine
is automatically rude. That's a bit unfair, to say at least.

  I did not intentionally reply rudely to your post, and reading it
again afterwards I don't really see any unintentional rudeness in it
either, unless you explicitly want to find questioning rude.

  I really believe that my questioning was relevant. You did not give
any arguments why this programming language would help raytracing in
particular, but only some vague comments how it can help making
mathematical programs in general.
  I argumented that the main requisite for a raytracer is speed and asked
you to provide arguments why this programming language will help with
this requisite. Is there something wrong about that?

-- 
plane{-x+y,-1pigment{bozo color_map{[0rgb x][1rgb x+y]}turbulence 1}}
sphere{0,2pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{emission 1density{spherical
density_map{[0rgb 0][.5rgb<1,.5>][1rgb 1]}turbulence.9}}}scale
<1,1,3>hollow}text{ttf"timrom""Warp".1,0translate<-1,-.1,2>}//  - Warp -

Post a reply to this message

Saul Luizaga wrote:
> I wrote to this user this way because he has write
> to others in the same AND even more rude tone. I know that is a "right"
> for everybody to write in this newsgroup server, but users, like this
> one, who offend others, even if they are at the TAG, should be moderated
> by a superior authority or be expelled.

I'm sorry, but I reread Warp's article and it is neither rude nor offensive.
He's questioning whether the key features of "J" are important for POV-Ray
which is a legal thing to do in a discussion group. If you don't want your
suggestion to be discussed, it is probably better not to post it in a
discussion group.

> A user (Bill DeWitt) at
> povray.off-topic said that he has write to his private e-mail address in
> a rude way and even insulted him, and he talks rude to the people he
> writes in that thread, and i read other threads where he writes the same
> way and i was seek of it. 

I have exactly one person in my "ignore list", so he isn't a saint either
(and I'm not claiming that I am). As insulting people doesn't belong to this
group please send answers concerning this matter as private mail. 

Best regards
Thomas

P.S.: No, I don't want to insult Bill.

-- 
www := web

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Christopher James Huff wrote:

> Now stop being childish.

Childish? You are the one who doesn't accepts reality.

> If you have a complaint about how Warp has 
> treated you, this is not the way to go about it. Warp's message was 
> informative and straightforward, not insulting or offensive, and 
> certainly didn't deserve this sort of response. Warp doesn't deserve the 
> impression you give of him, either.

"There's nothing bad in quoting only partially when only the relevant
part needs to be quoted. However, it's not ok to rely only on the quoted
text without reading the whole original article. That's not only impolite,
it's also stupid."

"The master programmer speaks again..."

You are WAAYY TOO WRONG my friend on this one, i think is exactly the 
way he is behaving. Maybe is not his natural state and had a bad day, 
but any way he should apologize to Bill and the others he offended. Is 
the right thin to do.

> 
> And as for "And for the POV-Team to consider, not you!", Warp is a 
> member of the POV-Ray TAG. One of the functions of the TAG is to serve 
> as public representatives of the POV-Team. Aside from giving assistence 
> to users of the program, we filter out useless stuff and bring important 
> information to the attention of the POV Team. You have not given any 
> reasons that would make J worth the time to look at. Warp was simply 
> doing his job as a TAG member.
> 

Ok, i was wrong on this, i APOLOGIZE for this. See... is not that hard 
to write it. Warp, are you seeing this?

Any way, the programmers and the one who has the last word about a 
computer language are the ones who use them, so i consider that the ones 
who should judge this is The POV-Team. I don't know anything about this 
language, i found it googleing The Net, i thought it would be of some 
interest and maybe i could help the POV-Team, that is why i wrote "to 
consider" not as a "must program in this language".


All this mess just because an TAG member is TOO GOOD to apologize, you 
know pride is a weakness not strenght.

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On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:47:01 -0400, Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> I don't know anything about this 
> language, i found it googleing The Net, i thought it would be of some 
> interest and maybe i could help the POV-Team, that is why i wrote "to 
> consider" not as a "must program in this language".

Reposting it two hours later from povray.general to povray.programming after
receiving first answer which questioned worth if this language with valuable
arguments.

> All this mess just because an TAG member is TOO GOOD to apologize, you 
> know pride is a weakness not strenght.

Sorry, I do not see any reason why anybody should apologize in this thread.
Perhaps only you for one rude post and multiposting. Please do not mix your
not interesting suggestion with personal problems between Bill and Warp.
Please continue offtopic discussion in dedicated group. Thanks.

ABX

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In article <3f9671e1@news.povray.org> , Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet>
wrote:

> You are right about everything. I let myself be misunderstood. I
> apologize for this. I wrote to this user this way because he has write
> to others in the same AND even more rude tone. I know that is a "right"
> for everybody to write in this newsgroup server, but users, like this
> one, who offend others, even if they are at the TAG, should be moderated
> by a superior authority or be expelled.

Well, if you don't like these groups, you are welcome to not visit them.

There was absolutely nothing rude about Warps post, contrary to your reply
to it.  And given your suggestion, I do not even want to think about how I
would have responded had I taken it seriously - I considered it a joke and
didn't bother to reply...

    Thorsten Froehlich, POV-Team

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich
e-mail: mac### [at] povrayorg

I am a member of the POV-Ray Team.
Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <3f9642e3@news.povray.org> , Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet>
wrote:

>   >   The relevance of this in raytracing is to be questioned.
>
> Have you read the subject? that is EXACTLY THE POINT!!! Mr. knew it
> all!!! And for the POV-Team to consider, not you!

Had you read the FAQ group you would have noticed that filtering the noise
is one of Warps "jobs" as a TAG member.  He did so in a very nice way, and
your response is not acceptable conduct on this news server.

As you want a response from the POV-Team, here you go, and I think the
answer is very clear and in a tone about as friendly as you can expect after
demanding a reply the way you did:

The language will *never* be even remotely considered for use as a scripting
or implementation language of POV-Ray.  The best thing to say about the
suggested language would be that it is useless unreadable junk!

I would recommend reading < http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html> for a
funny lecture about "good" programming language design...

    Thorsten Froehlich, POV-Team

____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich
e-mail: mac### [at] povrayorg

I am a member of the POV-Ray Team.
Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> "There's nothing bad in quoting only partially when only the relevant
> part needs to be quoted. However, it's not ok to rely only on the quoted
> text without reading the whole original article. That's not only impolite,
> it's also stupid."

> "The master programmer speaks again..."

  My newsreader must be broken since I can't find those texts in
this thread.

  Why are you quoting something from a completely different group from
a completely different context and written to someone else (unless you
are Bill DeWitt)? How are those quotes relevant to this thread?

  If you don't like me disagreeing with your suggestion about using
a certain programming language in POV-Ray, then why don't you present
answers to my questions instead of attacking me with irrelevant
off-topic quotes from somewhere else?

  And I have an extra question for you, if you would please answer it:

  What have I done to you that deserves such an attack, besides questioning
the relevance of that programming language in raytracing?

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

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In article <3f9689b0@news.povray.org>,
 Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:

> Childish? You are the one who doesn't accepts reality.

Right...
Maybe this is just a language issue, but being childish doesn't have 
much to do with accepting reality. "A? You are the one who B!" doesn't 
make much sense in English. I wasn't saying you didn't accept reality, I 
was saying you were acting like a two year old throwing a hissy fit.


> You are WAAYY TOO WRONG my friend on this one, i think is exactly the 
> way he is behaving. Maybe is not his natural state and had a bad day, 
> but any way he should apologize to Bill and the others he offended. Is 
> the right thin to do.

You are completely missing the point. If you have a complaint about 
Warp, you should first talk to him about it, and if that fails, talk to 
a member of the TAG or POV Team. Publicly flaming and slandering him the 
first time he replies to a message you post, regardless of what he said 
to you, is entirely the wrong way to handle it. *That* was the behavior 
I was calling childish, and it is simply unacceptable here.


> Ok, i was wrong on this, i APOLOGIZE for this. See... is not that hard 
> to write it. Warp, are you seeing this?

It's apparently difficult to write in such a way that it is believable. 
In any case, this is an extremely minor thing...that was a "for your 
information" correction, not a reaction to a given offense.


> Any way, the programmers and the one who has the last word about a 
> computer language are the ones who use them, so i consider that the ones 
> who should judge this is The POV-Team. I don't know anything about this 
> language, i found it googleing The Net, i thought it would be of some 
> interest and maybe i could help the POV-Team, that is why i wrote "to 
> consider" not as a "must program in this language".

You appeared to be knowledgeable about this language, and seemed to 
think it applied to POV-Ray somehow. Did you honestly expect not to get 
any questions about it? Especially when you were so vague about what the 
language could do and why it they should look at it? What is wrong with 
wanting to know more about it, or why you suggested it? Or with 
correcting a misconception about the type of thing that could help POV?
As others have said, if you didn't want it to be discussed, you 
shouldn't have posted it in a public discussion group.


> All this mess just because an TAG member is TOO GOOD to apologize, you 
> know pride is a weakness not strenght.

You seem to be really stretching here. Warp has a single, minor dispute 
with someone who is known for such things, and you attack him without 
giving him any chance to defend himself? You are overreacting by far. 
Your own recent messages have been far worse than anything I've ever 
seen from Warp.

-- 
Christopher James Huff <cja### [at] earthlinknet>
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjameshuff/
POV-Ray TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
http://tag.povray.org/

Post a reply to this message

All i can say i that i'm sorry, if you followed the thread you will 
notice that i apologize everyone, even Warp.

I was only trying to help The POV-Team and "defend" an "innocent", but i 
did all wrong. I'm truly Sorry. You know, i admire the POV-Team and i 
like very much POV-Ray, and the last thing i want is that someone from 
the POV-Team got mad at me and i defend the guilty and accused and 
innocent POV TAG-Team member, this is a disgrace for me.

I will post as little as possible.






Thorsten Froehlich wrote:

> In article <3f9642e3@news.povray.org> , Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>  >   The relevance of this in raytracing is to be questioned.
>>
>>Have you read the subject? that is EXACTLY THE POINT!!! Mr. knew it
>>all!!! And for the POV-Team to consider, not you!
> 
> 
> Had you read the FAQ group you would have noticed that filtering the noise
> is one of Warps "jobs" as a TAG member.  He did so in a very nice way, and
> your response is not acceptable conduct on this news server.
> 
> As you want a response from the POV-Team, here you go, and I think the
> answer is very clear and in a tone about as friendly as you can expect after
> demanding a reply the way you did:
> 
> The language will *never* be even remotely considered for use as a scripting
> or implementation language of POV-Ray.  The best thing to say about the
> suggested language would be that it is useless unreadable junk!
> 
> I would recommend reading < http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html> for a
> funny lecture about "good" programming language design...
> 
>     Thorsten Froehlich, POV-Team
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> Thorsten Froehlich
> e-mail: mac### [at] povrayorg
> 
> I am a member of the POV-Ray Team.
> Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org

Post a reply to this message

In article <3f96f972@news.povray.org>, sau### [at] netscapenet says...
> I was only trying to help The POV-Team and "defend" an "innocent", but i 
> did all wrong. I'm truly Sorry. You know, i admire the POV-Team and i 
> like very much POV-Ray, and the last thing i want is that someone from 
> the POV-Team got mad at me and i defend the guilty and accused and 
> innocent POV TAG-Team member, this is a disgrace for me.
> 
> I will post as little as possible.
> 

Well.. Bill Dewitt is a bit like a bald guy with a big splotchy birthmark 
on his head. One can't help be start itching to rub him the wrong way the 
moment you see him coming. The fact of the matter is that he 
unfortunately often bring it on himself. However, someone not knowing the 
history of conflict that exists between Bill and others may rightfully 
feel the need to defend them.

In any case, posting as little as possible is not necessary. Just apply a 
bit more care and caution about what you read and how you reply. ;) 
Anyone can goof up and interpret things incorrectly, even when they are 
trying not to.

-- 
void main () {
  If Schrödingers_cat is alive  
    call functional_code()
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

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Thank you for your understanding, i will post carefully

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This discussion is not NEW. I know we had it several times.

Someone WHO ALREADY has taken a lot of time  (and heartblood) to learn other
scripting languages - comes to POV-Ray and has the imagination  he could
save the time to learn POV-Ray SDL if  he can  alternatively "Help POV-Ray"
to learn his favourite scripting language.

There is quite some logic about it. But - this way it wont work.

My tip for Mr. Luizaga. You want more J in POV-Ray? Here is what you can do:
1. First learn POV-Ray SDL as it ist. Show them that you know it even better
then they.
    Then you are in a better position to suggest improvements.
2. Then proof your knowledge in programing and support POV-Ray developement,
your contributions
   will be welcome if they make sense.

--Theo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Distributed Network-Rendering or Local SMP-Rendering. With SMPOV and
POV-Ray 3.5. * Download free at: http://www.it-berater.org/smpov.htm

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