I would like to come into programming.

I can program with POV-Ray language which I use to make stills, animations,
math programs that output data as pictures or text files, and other things.
I would like to learn a real programming language so I will be less limited
and can work with things such as interactivity.
Now, I don't know any programming languages or what is required to make
programs, so what I would like to know is which programming language I
should choose to start with.
A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
would be appreciated.
There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby, I
guess that limits my number of choices?

Thanks,

Rune S. Johansen
http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj

Post a reply to this message

Start with c.  There are several free compilers out there.  For the PC
there is djgpp, cygwin, and several others.  

"Rune S. Johansen" wrote:
> 
> I would like to come into programming.
> 
> I can program with POV-Ray language which I use to make stills, animations,
> math programs that output data as pictures or text files, and other things.
> I would like to learn a real programming language so I will be less limited
> and can work with things such as interactivity.
> Now, I don't know any programming languages or what is required to make
> programs, so what I would like to know is which programming language I
> should choose to start with.
> A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
> would be appreciated.
> There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby, I
> guess that limits my number of choices?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rune S. Johansen
> http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj

Post a reply to this message

Hi Rune,

This is not an easy question to answer. I guess there are as many ways to learn
programming as there are programmers. I myself study systems development and
programming in a university, but I think that if you're motivated and used to
learning things from books you should buy some books and just start learning.

My only experience before starting my studies here was some BASIC programming on
the C-64 back in...uh...1985....(geez...that's a long time ago..), and my way
has been Pascal - C - COBOL - C++ - Delphi - SIMULA - Perl and of course - lots
of POV during all this! =)

To learn the basics I think Pascal does a good job. If you compare programming
to LEGO, Pascal is like DUPLO if you see what I mean. You get an understanding
af all the basic concepts: variables, procedures, functions, pointers.
(We used the book Turbo Pascal 7.0 by Walter Savitch (can't provide an ISBN
number for it), and I think it was a quite good book in how it decribed the
different parts of the language and programming in general.)

Then, I actually think it's time for an Object Oriented (OO) language. If you
know POV, you might have a slight understanding of what OO is as sphere{}, box{}
etc. actually are instances of "classes" and #declare MySphere=object{sphere{}}
is some sort of inheritance.

If I was a teacher and my students were open-minded to learning a language just
to understand a concept, I'd teach them SIMULA, which I believe was the first
OO-language ever invented. But nowadays people want to program in Java or C++
right away, so I guess that would be rather hard to motivate them to do. But
technically, SIMULA gives a good understanding of the OO concept.

Then it all depends on what you want to do. Database applications? Games? DOS,
Windows, UNIX or Mac programs? Network applications? Delphi seems to be quite
popular for (Windows) database applications, while Java programmers are the most
sought-after by software companies overall.

But, back to the subject: buy some books in for example Pascal or C, and go
ahead with learning the basics first. At least this is how I got started.

- Mikael.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mikael Carneholm
School of Business and Informatics
Högskolan i Borås, Sweden

http://www.studenter.hb.se/~arch
E-mail: sa9### [at] idautbhbse

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There are many specialized programming languages that do a great job.

I am learning C++ as a first language, so all I can do is share my thinking
about it.

C++ is a broad spectrum language capable of doing pretty much anything you
want, but is probably not as efficient as the specialty languages.

C++ is difficult and time consuming to learn. Expect to spend a few months
getting it down.

The learning path in C++ has many dead ends and wrong turns. It's very easy to
end up learning a variant of the language that is not compatible with anything
other than your own setup - there's a lot of non-ANSI compliant compilers out
there.

The final official version of C++ is very new and there are very few books on
fully compliant C++ on the market. I know of only 3.

C++ is highly modular and portable, probably more so than any other language.
It's very easy to reuse functions and objects.

C++ is supported with extensive and highly developed libraries. The number of
available custom libraries is stunning!

Online help is pretty spotty and unreliable - don't even think about it as a
general method of gaining knowledge.

You can always get paying work as a C++ programmer - the recruiters are
bombarding students enrolled in C++ courses.

If your programming goals are specialized, I'd probably recommend looking into
other languages.

steve




"Rune S. Johansen" wrote:

> I would like to come into programming.
>
> I can program with POV-Ray language which I use to make stills, animations,
> math programs that output data as pictures or text files, and other things.
> I would like to learn a real programming language so I will be less limited
> and can work with things such as interactivity.
> Now, I don't know any programming languages or what is required to make
> programs, so what I would like to know is which programming language I
> should choose to start with.
> A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
> would be appreciated.
> There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby, I
> guess that limits my number of choices?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rune S. Johansen
> http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj

Post a reply to this message

portelli wrote in message <37224A1B.9E54CA8A@pilot.msu.edu>...
>Start with c.  There are several free compilers out there.  For the PC
>there is djgpp, cygwin, and several others.


I wouldn't recommend that actually. C is a difficult language to learn as a
first language. If you really don't want to do anything object-oriented,
then I would recommend Pascal instead.

But then again, why *not* an object-oriented langauge?

It is only a myth that object-oriented languages are more difficult to learn
than procedural ones (like C or Pascal). This mostly stems from the fact,
that most programmers began with BASIC, C or Pascal but very few with an
object-oriented language, and that for those oldtimers "object-orientation"
still is some strange "newfangled" concept because it goes partly contrary
to what they have learned before. For a newbie who never had contact with
programming before, the whole object-orientation can be very intuitive and
easy to grasp, because there are no preconceptions about "how something
should be done" (in terms of programming) that are to be overcome.

In the recent "C/C++ Users Journal" from May 99 Bjarne Stroustrup makes a
very convincing argument about giving C++ the first choice over C as the
first language of a beginner (well, he is the inventor of C++, so who would
have guessed his opinion in that matter? ;-) .

C++ also has the advantage, that it is a superset of C. That means, once you
have mastered C++, you also have mastered C! (But you don't have to use all
the ugly nitty-gritty things from C, because often C++ offers a more elegant
solution.)

I can also very much recommend Java as a very tidy and strongly structured
(and easy to learn) language. Most probably easier to learn than C++!
It may be a little more difficult to come into (learning about classes, and
virtual machines and classpaths etc.) than C++, but still: A good choice.

If you ever plan to draw advantage out of your programming skills when it
comes to getting a job, then you should definitely learn either C++, C (with
the reservations mentioned above), Java or maybe Visual Basic (which is
probably out of the question since you don't want to buy something).

So long,
Johannes.

Post a reply to this message

I mention c and not c++ because some of those nice features of c++ have
gotten me into trouble.  It was easier to them do it in plain old c.  I
think with c you get a better grasp on what is actually happening.  But
that is just me.

Johannes Hubert wrote:
> 
> portelli wrote in message <37224A1B.9E54CA8A@pilot.msu.edu>...
> >Start with c.  There are several free compilers out there.  For the PC
> >there is djgpp, cygwin, and several others.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend that actually. C is a difficult language to learn as a
> first language. If you really don't want to do anything object-oriented,
> then I would recommend Pascal instead.
> 
> But then again, why *not* an object-oriented langauge?
> 
> It is only a myth that object-oriented languages are more difficult to learn
> than procedural ones (like C or Pascal). This mostly stems from the fact,
> that most programmers began with BASIC, C or Pascal but very few with an
> object-oriented language, and that for those oldtimers "object-orientation"
> still is some strange "newfangled" concept because it goes partly contrary
> to what they have learned before. For a newbie who never had contact with
> programming before, the whole object-orientation can be very intuitive and
> easy to grasp, because there are no preconceptions about "how something
> should be done" (in terms of programming) that are to be overcome.
> 
> In the recent "C/C++ Users Journal" from May 99 Bjarne Stroustrup makes a
> very convincing argument about giving C++ the first choice over C as the
> first language of a beginner (well, he is the inventor of C++, so who would
> have guessed his opinion in that matter? ;-) .
> 
> C++ also has the advantage, that it is a superset of C. That means, once you
> have mastered C++, you also have mastered C! (But you don't have to use all
> the ugly nitty-gritty things from C, because often C++ offers a more elegant
> solution.)
> 
> I can also very much recommend Java as a very tidy and strongly structured
> (and easy to learn) language. Most probably easier to learn than C++!
> It may be a little more difficult to come into (learning about classes, and
> virtual machines and classpaths etc.) than C++, but still: A good choice.
> 
> If you ever plan to draw advantage out of your programming skills when it
> comes to getting a job, then you should definitely learn either C++, C (with
> the reservations mentioned above), Java or maybe Visual Basic (which is
> probably out of the question since you don't want to buy something).
> 
> So long,
> Johannes.

Post a reply to this message

Rune S. Johansen <run### [at] get2netdk> wrote:

  > Now, I don't know any programming languages or what is required to make
  > programs, so what I would like to know is which programming language I
  > should choose to start with.

Python, and if that's too slow, straight C. then you can write the
speed-hungry parts in C, and wire them up with Python.

http://www.python.org/

  > A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
  > would be appreciated.

C is nice, simple and portable, but you'll get bitten a lot by pointer errors
while learning. make sure you're on a solid OS.

C++ is complicated, after reading some Guru of the Week questions in
comp.lang.c++ I just quit C++ altogether. way too many obscure pitfalls for
me.

Java is a quite nice language, but current environments are way too slow. if
I have to take a speed hit, I'll take all the niceties Python offers rather
than all the baggage a "real" programming language like Java has. OTOH, Java
compilers are now becoming available, although I haven't tried any yet.

Pascal and Delphi are weak in the OO department. and before anyone starts
jumping up and down: Delphi's notion of interfaces is unusable. something
like Java's Collections is, AFAICS, impossible. those are already a
compromise, Collections not being type-safe, but Delphi doesn't even have
that. eww. maybe in the next lets-steal-a-feature-from-Objective-C round.

this besides the obvious vendor-lock issue with Delphi.

  > There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby,
  > I guess that limits my number of choices?

Python is free, as are a few C and C++ compilers. http://www.gnu.org/
the Sun JDK is also free.

it is beneficial to learn a "real" language anyway, even if you do go
with Python. knowing a real language is about the only thing that can really
shed some light into the magic black box that is your computer.

Lodewijk

Post a reply to this message

Thank you all for your support!

I think I choose to start with c.
So which free PC windows 9x c compiler is the best?
Of course that's a matter of opinion but opinions is exactly what I would
like to hear.

portelli wrote:
>I mention c and not c++ because some of those nice features of c++ have
>gotten me into trouble.  It was easier to them do it in plain old c.  I
>think with c you get a better grasp on what is actually happening.  But
>that is just me.
>
>Johannes Hubert wrote:
>>
>> portelli wrote in message <37224A1B.9E54CA8A@pilot.msu.edu>...
>> >Start with c.  There are several free compilers out there.  For the PC
>> >there is djgpp, cygwin, and several others.
>>
>> I wouldn't recommend that actually. C is a difficult language to learn as
a
>> first language.
Do you mean C or C++ is a difficult first language? I'm a little confused.

>> If you really don't want to do anything object-oriented,
>> then I would recommend Pascal instead.
>>
>> But then again, why *not* an object-oriented langauge?
>>
>> It is only a myth that object-oriented languages are more difficult to
learn
>> than procedural ones (like C or Pascal). This mostly stems from the fact,
>> that most programmers began with BASIC, C or Pascal but very few with an
>> object-oriented language, and that for those oldtimers
"object-orientation"
>> still is some strange "newfangled" concept because it goes partly
contrary
>> to what they have learned before. For a newbie who never had contact with
>> programming before, the whole object-orientation can be very intuitive
and
>> easy to grasp, because there are no preconceptions about "how something
>> should be done" (in terms of programming) that are to be overcome.
<snip>
>> So long,
>> Johannes.

Thanks,

Rune S. Johansen
http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj

Post a reply to this message

Rune S. Johansen skrev i meddelelsen <3724cc63.0@news.povray.org>...
>Thank you all for your support!
>
>I think I choose to start with c.
>So which free PC windows 9x c compiler is the best?
>Of course that's a matter of opinion but opinions is exactly what I would
>like to hear.
>
<snip>

>
>Thanks,
>
>Rune S. Johansen
>http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj

I may not know exactly what I am talking about.
I just meant:
I use windows 95.
Which free compiler do you think I should use?

Thanks,

Rune S. Johansen
http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj

Post a reply to this message

Rune S. Johansen wrote:

> I would like to come into programming.

There are essentially three mutually exclusive [ :-( ]
kinds of programming languages:

1. Those which everybody uses to write useful stuff in (C, Java,
   Perl, C++)
2. Those which are relatively easy to learn (scheme, python, subsets of
perl)
3. Those which are constructed in order to be pure, safe, exact
   or something like that (Haskell, Ada, ...)

> I would like to learn a real programming language so I will be less limited
> and can work with things such as interactivity.

If you want to do interactive stuff, you might look at perl or python
(perl is messier, but is considered more intuitive by many people).

Both come with Tk bindings, which allow doing GUIs on both Unixen
(trivially) and Win (after having installed some additional libraries,
which are documented at the place where the language itself is 
available).

Languages of the third group are interesting, but probably overkill
unless you need to prove that your programs won't crash even after
an interstellar flight. :-)

Ralf

Post a reply to this message

#declare FLAME = true;

Come come...
Pascal can be OOP . I know, I do. 
Compilers that handle pascal OOP:
Borland Pascal 7.0
Borland Turbo Pascal 7.0
(Both of theese are now more or less difficult to find. they have long been
outside Borlands sortiment, and Borland is now known as Inprise)
Borland(Inprise) Delphi
TMT pascal (http://www.tmt.com)


As a language, Pascal is rather easy, yet far more powerful than most tend to
say.

Main reasons for beeing "easy" as a programming language is it's development.
It was ment to be "readable" and to read pascal code is rather like reading
english
(ex.)
Var I : integer; {I is the variable name (#declare I...)}
for I:= 1 to 15 do 
begin
....
end;

This makes it easier to read, although somewhat slower to type than other
languages. (Sorry, I won't call BASIC a language ;-)

as a beginners place for Pascal, I'd recommend Khaan's place (
http://www.algonet.se/~khaan/ ) as it   has pretty good beginners guides and
lessons to learn pascal.

I'll also have to add that there are some freeware compilers for pascal(YEY). 
Khaan covers this area as well :-)


#undef(FLAME) 

-- 
//Spider
        [ spi### [at] bahnhofse ]-[ http://www.bahnhof.se/~spider/ ]
What I can do and what I could do, I just don't know anymore
                "Marian"
        By: "Sisters Of Mercy"

Post a reply to this message

Rune S. Johansen wrote:
>I would like to come into programming.
<snip>
>A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
>would be appreciated.
>There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby,
I
>guess that limits my number of choices?
<snip>

Well, I haven't decided yet after all.

A little more details of what I would like to be able to do:
- Create graphic related programs. That could be anything from
  post processing tools to programs that generates stereograms
  to simple games.
- Create interactive programs, i.e. simple games, multimedia
  things and so on.
- Create programs with windows interface.

Of course I mean I would like to learn this with time,
over many years.

Thanks for any opinions.

Rune S. Johansen
http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj

Post a reply to this message

"Rune S. Johansen" wrote:

> Rune S. Johansen wrote:
> >I would like to come into programming.
> <snip>
> >A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
> >would be appreciated.
> >There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby,
> I
> >guess that limits my number of choices?
> <snip>
>
> Well, I haven't decided yet after all.
>
> A little more details of what I would like to be able to do:
> - Create graphic related programs. That could be anything from
>   post processing tools to programs that generates stereograms
>   to simple games.
> - Create interactive programs, i.e. simple games, multimedia
>   things and so on.
> - Create programs with windows interface.
>
> Of course I mean I would like to learn this with time,
> over many years.

OK. here are my opinions:

With the goals you mentioned, I'd suggest starting on Java and going to C,
with some flip-flop between then (i.e. get the Java basics down, do some nice
little thingies, then get the C basics down, then move back to Java a learn a
little more...). Start with the Java Tutorial from Sun.

Java applets are simple, but get limited soon. Java applications are nice.
For Java I'd suggest getting into Swing/JFC instead of learning AWT stuff.
Also, start with JDK 1.1.7/1.1.8. That's all free! Download the JDK, then also
get the Jikes java compiler from IBM (also free)

Once you get into C and 'windows interface', I'd suggest looking into GTK
(unless your heart is really set on MS Windows development). Probably the best
thing to start with is the Gimp. Besides being Linux, there is now a Win32
port that is pretty far along (it is currently on MSVC 5, but getting the free
cygnus stuff supported as we speak). GTK came from the Gimp to begin with. You
might want to start by looking into the different Gimp plugins (sounds like
the stuff you're interested in).

Also, keep up with Freshmeat and get and read the source of any interesting
programs mentioned there.

Java    http://java.sun.com/
Jikes    http://www.alphaWorks.ibm.com/
The Java Tutorial    http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/index.html
JDC    http://developer.java.sun.com/
Gimp    http://www.gimp.org/
GTK    http://www.gtk.org/
Freshmeat    http://freshmeat.net/

Better yet, just get Linux and use gcc for c, and JDK from
http://www.blackdown.org/ for Java.


Also, there are some interesting Java API's out there.

Java2D (in Java2/JDK1.2)
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/2D/index.html
Java Media Framework    http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/jmf/index.html

Java Advanced Imaging
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/jai/index.html
Java 3D    http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/3D/index.html

Post a reply to this message

"Rune S. Johansen" wrote:

> I would like to come into programming.

<snip>

> A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
> would be appreciated.

<snip>

What platform do you use ?
That is always relevant because some platforms have softwares others don't.

Talking broadly :
What use do you want to make out of programming ?
Is it just for fun ?
Do you want to be able to write software quickly ?
Or do you have time on your hands.
What is your budget ?


The best way in my opinion is to take the fun approach and to make time if you
don't already have it, so you take it leisurely enough.

I started a long time ago with Basic and the like, they do not help much for
programming. A few days with them is more than enough. The basic style languages
only bring bad habits, so is best avoided. The only thing basic can do for you
any other language can do it as well and this is to start grasp what a program
is and what sort of simple actions you can do with a program.

One choice is important though.
When you start programming you want to see the result straight away. So it is
usually easier to start with an interpreted language.
Once you are confident enough, then add another layer of knowledge and put in
the compilation & link stages.


My second step was Logo, there is a Logo interpreter available for Windows
somewhere on the net, I don't remember the URL. Maybe more than just Windows.
You may try to locate it at
http://union.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HyperNews/get/computing/lang-list.html  as this lists
many (most ? all ? not all, no) languages available in the computing world.
This is really great for toying and getting you into very good programming
thinking although pretty simple to use.

Then there is two broad routes :
1-fun/toying
2-work/net/useable fun/games

Route 1 :
I would strongly recommend looking into Prolog and Le Lisp. Two great sets of
concepts. It is actually nice to follow this Route first, then go on to Route 2.
Or maybe just stay on Route 1 if you can afford it (timewise, if computers don't
feed you for instance).

Route 2 :
Next step I would strongly advise Pascal as it is a pretty simple conventional
programming language. If you look closely at the way it enforces you to define
your programs you will understand pretty clearly and pretty quickly what is
happening in the machine and in the compiler. Pascal is one of the best
(self)teaching languages.
Borland (not free) has developped turbo pascal with object oriented features and
that is much easier to use than C++. Again very good for teaching purposes not
always as powerful as C/C++, always cleaner than C/C++.

C is a disgrace to methodical, pretty, safe, reliable computing but it has grown
so big that you just can't avoid it. So whenever you want to seriously take up
programming and merge your efforts with stuff that floats on the net, then C/C++
are unavoidable. They are powerful languages but they can be pretty messy and
you need a lot of experience to cope with sizable applications.

I would like to advise ADA but unfortunately too few companies/programmers use
it or know how to use it. ADA is pretty complex but allows to write nicer,
safer, more reliable apps than C. There is one big bad point with ADA though :
string manipulation is poor in the standard package - and string manipulation is
a very strong point of C.

A lot of very powerful tools like awk/sed/lex/yacc/bison/python/java borrow from
the C/C++ spirit and/or interface easily with C/C++.

If you are into maths to a high degree then you will not be able to avoid
Fortran (f77 mostly). It is pretty bnackwards but so many maths libraries have
been coded in fortran that many people just gave up trying to port it all to
another language.

I'm sure there must be free versions of all languages I quoted. Sometimes free
versions can be a headache as you have no one to blame for doing things wrong
and not being helpful. But in the long run you find out that these are the best
for finding helpful people - big companies do not help much.
Starting off with a free tool can be hard in the beginning, but if you hold on
and get over it, they really reward you with satisfaction.

Best of luck in your quest,
Alain.

--
ANTI SPAM / ANTI ARROSAGE COMMERCIAL :
Pour me répondre, veuillez enlever le Z de mon adresse.
To answer me, please take out the Z from my address.

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Being the lone FORTRAN programmer in the known POV universe I must take
exception to your comments about the language :b) .  Fortran 95 (yes, an
actual, current ANSI standard) has been thoroughly polluted with all the
structured, object oriented "improvements" that clutter C++ and associated
languages.  The Fortran 2000 ANSI standard promises to continue this
deconstruction of a once fine language ...

Also, Lahey (www.lahey.com) offers a free Fortran compiler.

So there!  :)D

--
Jim

Check out my web site http://www.kressworks.com/
It'll blow your mind (politically), stimulate your senses (artistically)
and provide scientific insights that boggle the mind!!


Alain CULOS wrote in message <37278CAC.283BCE5C@bigfoot.com>...
>"Rune S. Johansen" wrote:
>
>> I would like to come into programming.
>
<LARGE SNIP>
>
>If you are into maths to a high degree then you will not be able to avoid
>Fortran (f77 mostly). It is pretty bnackwards but so many maths libraries
have
>been coded in fortran that many people just gave up trying to port it all
to
>another language.
>

Post a reply to this message

Jim Kress wrote:
> 
> Being the lone FORTRAN programmer in the known POV universe I must take
> exception to your comments about the language :b) .  Fortran 95 (yes, an
> actual, current ANSI standard) has been thoroughly polluted with all the
> structured, object oriented "improvements" that clutter C++ and associated
> languages.  The Fortran 2000 ANSI standard promises to continue this
> deconstruction of a once fine language ...
> 
> Also, Lahey (www.lahey.com) offers a free Fortran compiler.
> 
> So there!  :)D
> 
> --
> Jim
> 

Hey!

I'm not alone with this dinosaur! :-)
Well your're not alone. And I use still the good ole' FORTRAN 77.


Marc
-- 
Marc Schimmler

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Alain CULOS wrote:

> Route 2 :
> Next step I would strongly advise Pascal as it is a pretty simple conventional
> programming language. If you look closely at the way it enforces you to define
> your programs you will understand pretty clearly and pretty quickly what is
> happening in the machine and in the compiler. Pascal is one of the best
> (self)teaching languages.
> Borland (not free) has developped turbo pascal with object oriented features and
> that is much easier to use than C++. Again very good for teaching purposes not
> always as powerful as C/C++, always cleaner than C/C++.
>

You should be aware that of the 3 major programming environments, one dropped
Pascal a while back and the second announced yesterday that it is dropping Pascal.
Pascal is a fine language, but it appears that it's future is now frozen. Pascal is
supported by a couple of the lesser environments but it may be a bad way to go if
you are looking for a professional career in programming.

I feel badly for the many millions of lines of legacy code written in Pascal.

steve

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A big sorrow for all of us.
(Hmm, it's still a good language for the beginner... LOTS and LOTS of demos and
examples on the net. perfect for picking apart and messing with :-)

Steve wrote:
> 
> Alain CULOS wrote:
> 
> > Route 2 :
> > Next step I would strongly advise Pascal as it is a pretty simple conventional
> > programming language. If you look closely at the way it enforces you to define
> > your programs you will understand pretty clearly and pretty quickly what is
> > happening in the machine and in the compiler. Pascal is one of the best
> > (self)teaching languages.
> > Borland (not free) has developped turbo pascal with object oriented features and
> > that is much easier to use than C++. Again very good for teaching purposes not
> > always as powerful as C/C++, always cleaner than C/C++.
> >
> 
> You should be aware that of the 3 major programming environments, one dropped
> Pascal a while back and the second announced yesterday that it is dropping Pascal.
> Pascal is a fine language, but it appears that it's future is now frozen. Pascal is
> supported by a couple of the lesser environments but it may be a bad way to go if
> you are looking for a professional career in programming.
> 
> I feel badly for the many millions of lines of legacy code written in Pascal.
> 
> steve

-- 
//Spider    --  [ spi### [at] bahnhofse ]-[ http://www.bahnhof.se/~spider/ ]
And the meek'll inherit what they damn well please
	Get ahead, go figure, go ahead and pull the trigger
		Everything under the gun
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Steve wrote:
> 
> Alain CULOS wrote:
> 
> > Route 2 :
> > Next step I would strongly advise Pascal as it is a pretty simple conventional
> > programming language. If you look closely at the way it enforces you to define
> > your programs you will understand pretty clearly and pretty quickly what is
> > happening in the machine and in the compiler. Pascal is one of the best
> > (self)teaching languages.
> > Borland (not free) has developped turbo pascal with object oriented features and
> > that is much easier to use than C++. Again very good for teaching purposes not
> > always as powerful as C/C++, always cleaner than C/C++.
> >
> 
> You should be aware that of the 3 major programming environments, one dropped
> Pascal a while back and the second announced yesterday that it is dropping Pascal.
> Pascal is a fine language, but it appears that it's future is now frozen. Pascal is
> supported by a couple of the lesser environments but it may be a bad way to go if
> you are looking for a professional career in programming.
> 
> I feel badly for the many millions of lines of legacy code written in Pascal.
>  
   Delphi is Pascal. There is a bunch of 'visual' windows stuff on top
but at it's heart where you write the code it's still Pascal. Pascal is
in that kind of never never land though, it's harder and takes more work
then basic, bat files, or a macro and it isn't as fast or powerfull as C
or ASM.

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Steve wrote:

> You should be aware that of the 3 major programming environments, one dropped
> Pascal a while back and the second announced yesterday that it is dropping Pascal.
> Pascal is a fine language, but it appears that it's future is now frozen. Pascal is
> supported by a couple of the lesser environments but it may be a bad way to go if
> you are looking for a professional career in programming.
>
> I feel badly for the many millions of lines of legacy code written in Pascal.

1/ I never said Pascal was good to use for a real life project.
2/ What does it matter if some platforms drop it, we're only talking about something
that is supported on ordinary PCs. Win32 for sure, but I'm almost certain all flavours
of Unix, including Linux support some form or other of Pascal. Go check the GNU
Pascal.

3/ Pascal as I said is good, brilliant, perfect as a teaching language. Very simple,
clear, easy to understand, easy to use. Makes programming a good experience and
enforces good habits. Of course it gets limited for sizeable real life projects.

Regards,
Al.

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Hi,

I think you misinterpreted my comments both of you ...

Marc Schimmler wrote:

> Jim Kress wrote:
> >
> > Being the lone FORTRAN programmer in the known POV universe I must take
> > exception to your comments about the language :b) .  Fortran 95 (yes, an
> > actual, current ANSI standard) has been thoroughly polluted with all the
> > structured, object oriented "improvements" that clutter C++ and associated
> > languages.  The Fortran 2000 ANSI standard promises to continue this
> > deconstruction of a once fine language ...
> >
> > Also, Lahey (www.lahey.com) offers a free Fortran compiler.
> >
> > So there!  :)D
> >
> > --
> > Jim
> >
>
> Hey!
>
> I'm not alone with this dinosaur! :-)
> Well your're not alone. And I use still the good ole' FORTRAN 77.
>
> Marc
> --
> Marc Schimmler

I'm learning something about f2000, I knew all right that f95 had gone some way
from the olden days.
The fortran I was talking about was indeed f77, the one with the huge amount of
legacy code.
I still think that it is a very backward language, as much as the old basic was
backward.
The reason being that it is hard to read and hard to maintain, very easy to get
lost. Not a very efficient programming language for the programmer, unless you
are prepared to do a lot of cut and paste, which does bloat your programs pretty
quickly. Try manage 8MB source code of fortran for a single application and tell
me what you think.
Well, 8MB of C is easier to read and change but that bit buggier at the same
time and some bugs can be very tricky in C.
8MB of ADA is certainly a lot easier, especially when you're talking about 32
tasks running in parallel. Even ADA83.

Of course some people hate OO, but that is only because it is too often badly
used and used for what plain straight procedural programming can do better.
That's where the design stage should have come in first. Well thought OO - that
is OO only when useful - is better than procedural, but badly thought OO can be
pretty ugly, I will admit.

Best regards & Cheers,
Al.

--
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So many neat discussions I missed over the last month when I haven't had time
to even visit these newsgroups.

I'll put in my 3 cents (i'm paid well, i can afford extra) and take my turn on
the soapbox...


The best language for anyone curious about programming, without paying money,
and without wanting to get into ugly technical problems, is either Python or
Oberon.  

   Oberon typically comes with an IDE (integrated development environment) that
lets you edit, compile, run, etc easily w/o typing in long weird command lines
or messing with makefiles.   It great to gain a taste of programming, in an
elegant language anyone can learn in a day, and it runs fast and on almost all
platforms of significance today.   It resembles Pascal, and was invented by the
same language designer, but is more powerful.  OTOH, it has limitations that
make it useless for serious professional software development.  Look for a book
by Mossbauer.  (If for some reason you don't want an IDE, but just a
command-line compiler, look for OOC, but I dont' recommend it for  a total
beginner.)   Look for "System 3" and "Black Box" and "Component Pascal"

  Python requires using a text editor, and reading documentation in whatever
form you can get it; there's no IDE (that I know of).  It too is elegant, and
very useful for a lot of things.  I wrote Python programs (small simple ones)
to help in modifying povray source code.  Also can be learned quick, though
maybe not as quick as Oberon.  Visit www.python.org/

Modula-3 is also a nice language. WHile a total blank-beginner could start with
it, the compiler is a huge download and it took me some cussin' & fussin' to
get it to work.   Great for professional software development, but not enough
software companies have heard of it.  One company, Positron, makes 911 call
dispatch software using mostly (or all?) Modula-3, saving lots of development
time over C/C++ techniques.  There's an operating system written entirely in
Modula-3.   Also resembles Pascal.  Visit www.m3.org/ for more.


A language that might be fun for beginners, if only there were better
documentation, is Sather.  It's recently become a GNU open source thing, so
maybe in a year I would recommend it.  Nothing like pascal.


Only if you're aiming for a career in computer programming should you consider
C or C++.  These are very big languages.  Lots of power, but no more power than
you can get in Ada-95 (not for beginners unless you have patience and a good
text) or Modula-3.  In fact, less power because flaws in the C/C++ languages
prevent the compiler and linker from making certain kinds of optimizations, but
that's  a detail.


C and C++ are unique among languages I mention here in that they are the only
ones that require the programmer to pay a lot of attention to low-level memory
allocation and release. They use pointers in many ways, and don't support text
strings directly.  You face dangers of unfreed pointers, double-free pointers,
unitialized pointers, etc.  All the other languages use garbage collection (GC)
to automatically keep the memory allocations straight.    GC used to be frowned
upon in the old days, because it used to be slow and got in the way of things,
but in the last few years the theory and technology of GC have made huge
progress.   


TCL, Perl, and the other languages I saw mentioned are fun to toy with, but
will make your head spin until you master a bunch of very geeky things like
Regular Expressions, and are best for only certain uses.  Maybe try Perl as a
2nd or 3rd language - perl programmers working for web site designers can make
great money.  

For the best collection of links for browsing on programming languages, visit
http://www.cetus-links.org/    Expect to spend all day there, they have a lot!


Have fun!

-- 
Daren Scot Wilson
dar### [at] pipelinecom 
www.newcolor.com
----
"Unless we attempt the absurd, we cannot achieve the impossible" 
                                           - A. Einstein

"Unless we attempt to get out of bed, we cannot achieve the easy"
                                           - D. Wilson

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Hi Alain!

Your absoutly right about FORTRAN. I maintain 8MB of Fortran 77 code (a
FEM code for static, dynamic mechanical problems and CFD) and every time
I run into a problem I have to search for day to track the error down
(in most cases not mine but those of the original authors). Especially
common blocks can be nasty and more so when single and double numbers
are stored in the same block. What can happen there .....

I still think that FORTRAN is unavoidable for high computation of
numerical problems. All the high computing languages for the CRAY or NEC
I've seen were derivates of FORTRAN.

Besides I'm learning C++. I did some ADA 83/95 too and I liked it but it
is not supported like C or C++ are. 

It's still funny not to be the only one in the world that has to fight
with the limitations of FORTRAN.

Marc
-- 
Marc Schimmler

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Was talking just last weekend about Fortran with my dad and a friend of
his. They used it back in the '60s with those punch cards etc. First I've
heard he almost did programming back then, citing it to be similar to flow
charting. He was a finance manager and later became manager of the
internationl space station at Boeing before retiring.
I had visited his workplace in Florida as a kid and was shown the computer
room, what a monstrosity of archaic machines, although at the time it was
like a peek into the future for me. I did a bit of Fortran in a computing
class in high school circa '77. Strange typewriter-sized machine that used
punchcards as input and had only a orange LED display to show plots of
equations, formula, functions we gave it. We were apparently behind the
times there I think.


Marc Schimmler wrote:
> 
> Hi Alain!
> 
> Your absoutly right about FORTRAN. I maintain 8MB of Fortran 77 code (a
> FEM code for static, dynamic mechanical problems and CFD) and every time
> I run into a problem I have to search for day to track the error down
> (in most cases not mine but those of the original authors). Especially
> common blocks can be nasty and more so when single and double numbers
> are stored in the same block. What can happen there .....
> 
> I still think that FORTRAN is unavoidable for high computation of
> numerical problems. All the high computing languages for the CRAY or NEC
> I've seen were derivates of FORTRAN.
> 
> Besides I'm learning C++. I did some ADA 83/95 too and I liked it but it
> is not supported like C or C++ are.
> 
> It's still funny not to be the only one in the world that has to fight
> with the limitations of FORTRAN.
> 
> Marc
> --
> Marc Schimmler

-- 
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  http://members.aol.com/inversez/homepage.htm
 mailto://inversez@aol.com?Subject=PoV-News

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Bob Hughes wrote:
> 
> Was talking just last weekend about Fortran with my dad and a friend of
> his. They used it back in the '60s with those punch cards etc. First I've
> heard he almost did programming back then, citing it to be similar to flow
> charting. He was a finance manager and later became manager of the
> internationl space station at Boeing before retiring.
> I had visited his workplace in Florida as a kid and was shown the computer
> room, what a monstrosity of archaic machines, although at the time it was
> like a peek into the future for me. I did a bit of Fortran in a computing
> class in high school circa '77. Strange typewriter-sized machine that used
> punchcards as input and had only a orange LED display to show plots of
> equations, formula, functions we gave it. We were apparently behind the
> times there I think.
> 

The funny thing is that my dad started his work at a computer center in
the 60's. He worked even with the Zuse-8 (?) one of the first computers
available. I remember when I visited him at work as a child (about 18
years ago) he was already programming in FORTRAN 77. It was ultra
modern! That's what's happen when a company gets so dominant that a
change is nearly impossible.

I cite an IBM mananger many many years ago:

"I don't know how the programming language of the future will look like
but what I know is that it will be called FORTRAN!"

I hope my kids won't be condemmed to work with Windows 2000 'til the end
of their days.


All the best,

Marc 
-- 
Marc Schimmler

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Hi Rune !

I think that you - as an experienced pov-user - will later reach the
point of writing a prog which uses Direct3D-API. As far as I know, the
only languages supporting this API are C++ and Delphi. 
I never used C++, but did a lot of things in Delphi, and it's really
great !!! In the beginning, you can just click and drag simple progs
together with only a few lines of code, but you can dive deep into
WINDOWS too.
And last but not least, there are lots of samples and components on the
internet ( mostly for free).
Surely, it's not cheap, but believe me, it's worth it!

Rune S. Johansen schrieb:
> 
> I would like to come into programming.
> 
> I can program with POV-Ray language which I use to make stills, animations,
> math programs that output data as pictures or text files, and other things.
> I would like to learn a real programming language so I will be less limited
> and can work with things such as interactivity.
> Now, I don't know any programming languages or what is required to make
> programs, so what I would like to know is which programming language I
> should choose to start with.
> A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
> would be appreciated.
> There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby, I
> guess that limits my number of choices?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rune S. Johansen
> http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj

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