Hi all!  I was wondering if there was any interest in putting together a
group to create the ultimate Modeller/Animation system for POV?  I've
got a ton  of ideas, and started to try and program it, but never got to
far.  My skills just aren't good enough to get the job done.

I've stumbled across a C++ library that allows you to write one
interface, and compile it into a number of different OS's, including
Win95 and Linux.  I thought that this would be perfect.  If there is any
interest, email me or, better yet, respond in the newsgroup....

Thanks
Lonnie Ezell

Post a reply to this message

I would be interested in working on such a project.

Lloyd

Lonnie Ezell <lez### [at] pcisnet> wrote in article
<3563B857.5A20E0EB@pcis.net>...
> Hi all!  I was wondering if there was any interest in putting together a
> group to create the ultimate Modeller/Animation system for POV?  I've
> got a ton  of ideas, and started to try and program it, but never got to
> far.  My skills just aren't good enough to get the job done.
> 
> I've stumbled across a C++ library that allows you to write one
> interface, and compile it into a number of different OS's, including
> Win95 and Linux.  I thought that this would be perfect.  If there is any
> interest, email me or, better yet, respond in the newsgroup....
> 
> Thanks
> Lonnie Ezell
> 
>

Post a reply to this message

Better than that C++ and that library, I'd suggest going with Java.

I'm open to helping on such a project.

(Please, no Holy Wars on this one :)



Lonnie Ezell wrote:
> 
> Hi all!  I was wondering if there was any interest in putting together a
> group to create the ultimate Modeller/Animation system for POV?  I've
> got a ton  of ideas, and started to try and program it, but never got to
> far.  My skills just aren't good enough to get the job done.
> 
> I've stumbled across a C++ library that allows you to write one
> interface, and compile it into a number of different OS's, including
> Win95 and Linux.  I thought that this would be perfect.  If there is any
> interest, email me or, better yet, respond in the newsgroup....
> 
> Thanks
> Lonnie Ezell

Post a reply to this message

Jon A. Cruz wrote:

> Better than that C++ and that library, I'd suggest going with Java.
>
> I'm open to helping on such a project.
>
> (Please, no Holy Wars on this one :)
>

I don't know anything about Java's capabilities...Can it really provide the
speed and power that this sort of program would need?

I'd be more than willing to learn it if everyone thinks it can handle it.  It
would definitely provide the compatibility...

Post a reply to this message

Lonnie Ezell <lez### [at] pcisnet> wrote:
: I don't know anything about Java's capabilities...Can it really provide the
: speed and power that this sort of program would need?

  You are completely right. I don't like the idea of waiting 10 seconds for
the program to redraw the wireframe, etc.
  I think java is extremely overestimated. I think that in 99.9% of the
computers you have to run the java program in a slow javavm-emulation, and,
besides, the java support of many systems and programs is really deficient.
  I have coded a rather big project with a friend in java, and we were
surprised when it didn't work in almost any system! We coded it to work
with netscape 3 and appletviewer in a sparcstation. Then we tested it with
netscape 4 on the same machine: it didn't work well. We tested it in
win95: none of the netscape versions run it fine, and msie didn't run it
at all!
  Java definitely is not "write once, run everywhere". We wrote it once, and
it didn't run everywhere. We have to write it again if we want it to work
in other systems than netscape3/sparc.
  Also the program is deadly slow (actually it was a very simple
modeller for povray). When there was about 100-200 lines to draw on screen,
in a pentium150 it was a pain to use. With a program written in C you can
draw over 10000 lines faster than that.
  What's the problem with C++ anyways?

-- 
                                                              - Warp. -

Post a reply to this message

Nieminen Mika wrote:
> 
> Lonnie Ezell <lez### [at] pcisnet> wrote:
> : I don't know anything about Java's capabilities...Can it really provide the
> : speed and power that this sort of program would need?
> 
>   You are completely right. I don't like the idea of waiting 10 seconds for
> the program to redraw the wireframe, etc.
>   I think java is extremely overestimated. I think that in 99.9% of the
> computers you have to run the java program in a slow javavm-emulation, and,
> besides, the java support of many systems and programs is really deficient...

Well, there needs to be a distinction drawn in what you are speaking
about. It appears that you are mainly talking about experience with Java
Applets, which are a different animal than full Java applications.

With the current JIT Compilers on Windows, performance is greatly
increased. Also, the VM's in most browsers may not be the best, but a
stand-alone app can use the latest and greatest.

More importantly is the problem being addressed and the manner in which
the solution is approached. Given my general understanding of the
problem, I'd have to say that most of it could be done with Java.
Breaking things down into modeller and animator would be a logical
separation. The animator should have no problem in Java. The modeller
would have the most potential for performance problems.

Taking the modeller separately, I'll guess what the problems might be.
Probably screen update speed is the main factor. Now, an applet might
have some major problems with this, but given a stand-alone application
it would be possible to take advantage of one of the specific Java API's
such as Java2D or Java3D (which can be calling OpenGL).

If need be, a simple native method could be written to do the screen
display. In general it's much the same as doing a C++ Widows app. You
don't try to
call SetPixel() for each pixel on screen.


Bottom line is, I'm not trying to say that a animator/modeller done in
Java will
be just as fast, but that done correctly it would be fast enough for the
problem at hand. Especially if it had OpenGL support.


For simple examples of something done with no extension API's, try:

http://java.sun.com/applets/MoleculeViewer/example1.html
http://java.sun.com/applets/MoleculeViewer/example2.html
http://java.sun.com/applets/MoleculeViewer/example3.html

http://java.sun.com/applets/WireFrame/example1.html
http://java.sun.com/applets/WireFrame/example2.html
http://java.sun.com/applets/WireFrame/example3.html
http://java.sun.com/applets/WireFrame/example4.html

(those were from http://java.sun.com/applets/js-applets.html )

For more on the mentioned API's:

http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/index.html
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/3D/index.html

http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/3D/forDevelopers/NTR.html







BTW, if you want to really see a bad solution to a problem, check out
the results of the VJ++ Applet Wizard.  :P

Post a reply to this message

On 21 May 1998 16:49:39 GMT, Nieminen Mika <war### [at] assaricctutfi>
wrote:

>Lonnie Ezell <lez### [at] pcisnet> wrote:
>: I don't know anything about Java's capabilities...Can it really provide the
>: speed and power that this sort of program would need?
>
>  You are completely right. I don't like the idea of waiting 10 seconds for
>the program to redraw the wireframe, etc.

I'm sure the Amiga and DOS users among us aren't too thrilled with
waiting for Java to be available for their machines, either.  But I'll
stop there, so as to avoid a holy war.

Post a reply to this message

I would be interested in such a project, and hopefully I would have
something to offer skill wise.

Regarding languages, POVray is written in C and seems to have achieved
cross-platform penetration quite nicely.  Language is obviously NOT an
issue.

My thoughts are for either C or C++ to be used, however Object Oriented
Design is new and generally people have very different ideas as to what is
the best design in that.  POV is not Object Oriented but this is not
neccessarily a problem.

Your thoughts please....

Regards Stuart Anderson.

Post a reply to this message

While ANSI C/C++ applications are easily portable to many operating systems,
the GUI's are not remotely compatible.  So, what would have to be done is for
the GUI to be written to look and function very similar for each platform
seperately, while reusing the internal code.  Even then, I'm not sure exactly
how much would be usable, but it should be enough to make it worth while.

As mentioned previously, a cross-platform GUI library exists for C++ that
creates interfaces for:  Windows 3.1, 95, NT 4.0, almost all varieties of
UNIX/Linux using Motif, XView & XT, and Mac support to come soon...  Alas,
that would still leave out the Amiga and DOS platforms... I haven't used this
so I cannot say how good it works/ doesn't work!  :)

check it out here:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/julian.smart/wxwin/

As far as Java goes, I have done any programming in it, but after checking out
the examples and documentation, it doesn't look to bad.  Definitely check out
the examples though, they're fairly impressive as far as speed goes...  But
again, OpenGL goes across several platforms too...

Just some items for thought...

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 22 May 1998 14:13:33 +1000, "Stuart Anderson"
<stu### [at] backmeupnetau> wrote:

>POV is not Object Oriented but this is not
>neccessarily a problem.

Contrary to popular belief, POV is object-oriented.  It's just not
written in any of the OO camp's favorite languages.  It takes a bit
more work to achieve OO in C, but remember that the first C++
compilers were just frontends for C compilers.  POV even has virtual
function tables, and has since at least V2.2 (when I started hacking
the code - it probably has been OO for even longer.)

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 22 May 1998 00:13:29 -0500, Lonnie Ezell <lez### [at] pcisnet>
wrote:

>As mentioned previously, a cross-platform GUI library exists for C++ that
>creates interfaces for:  Windows 3.1, 95, NT 4.0, almost all varieties of
>UNIX/Linux using Motif, XView & XT, and Mac support to come soon...  Alas,
>that would still leave out the Amiga and DOS platforms... I haven't used this
>so I cannot say how good it works/ doesn't work!  :)

Still, it's a lot easier to port a user interface than to port a
language.  Especially a language that isn't even solid yet.

Post a reply to this message

Ronald L. Parker wrote:
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, POV is object-oriented.  It's just not
> written in any of the OO camp's favorite languages.

I agree.  It's got polymorphism, inheritance, and encapsulation (three
of the four buzzwords in OOP).  The only thing it doesn't do is
data hiding.  I was truly amazed the first time I saw POV's code.  :)

-Nathan Kopp

Post a reply to this message

Hey all, I'd love to see this project get underway, so if any who are
interested would send me some mail describing what areas you would
prefer to work on, or what areas of expertise you already have, I'll
work on getting everyone setup with Parts to work on. 

Although, I guess we all need to decide exactly what we want to
accomplish with this project.  Personally, I'd love to see it develop
into something to equal professional packages, like 3D Studio Max!

Also need to know everyone's opinion on what language to use, or if we
should give a couple a try.  I've heard personally support for both Java
and C++.  If all interested parties would tell me their preferences
we'll see if we can't get this thing started!!!

Oh, anyone got any time to keep a web page for this that would allow for
all specs to be posted, along with who's got what part, etc... so that
we can all have easy access to the neccessary info.  Links would also be
good...

Lonnie

Post a reply to this message

> Jon A. Cruz wrote:
> 
> I don't know anything about Java's capabilities...Can it really provide
the
> speed and power that this sort of program would need?
> 

No, not yet, anyway.

jb

Post a reply to this message

Jon Berndt wrote:
> 
> > Jon A. Cruz wrote:
> >
> > I don't know anything about Java's capabilities...Can it really provide
> the
> > speed and power that this sort of program would need?
> >
> 
> No, not yet, anyway.
> 
> jb

oops. you missed a quote. That should have been:

Lonnie Ezell wrote:

Since you cut out what I had said and only left what Lonnie said.


Anyway, as far as I've seen, yes it does have the speed and power
needed. Did you check some of the basic applets I mentioned? Also
Java-3D, JDirect, etc.

Post a reply to this message

...
>Regarding languages, POVray is written in C and seems to have achieved
>cross-platform penetration quite nicely.  Language is obviously NOT an
>issue.
>
...
>Regards Stuart Anderson.
>
>

I would say make it for linux, then compile for mac/powermac/I383/alpha/
etc...   I could be mistaken, but withj linux the most ported of OS's, I do
believe that a simple (   >:o    )   recompile would be all that is needed.
Not everybody has linux, but, considering it is just fine being relegated to
100megs worth of space, most people could get it, an win95, or mac os, or
dos etc.  I am no programmer, but that would seem to be the easiest,
reasonably portable route, at least to me...`

Post a reply to this message

I'm interested in this project, but probably only as an end user -- i'm
already up to my earlobes with software projects.


Here's my 3 cents.... (it should be two cents, but they pay me too much)

There do exist other, efficient, fairly easy to learn, reliable,
multiplatform languages.    Everyone seems to think that only C, C++ and
Java exist.  Well, yeah, there's FORTRAN and COBOL, too, but of course
they're out.  So let me turn on the light and show you some other good
candidates.  *click!*  Ah, look at these...

Modula-3 is great!  It runs on all major operating systems, makes tight
fast code, and has multi-threading builtin, a very nice feature for an
interactive app such as a modeller.  It's very important to let the user
click on buttons before an image  has finished rendering, and
multi-thread programming is a nice way to handle that, though, I must
mention, not strictly necessary.   There's a standard library of GUI
stuff.  I haven't used it yet, so is it good enough?  I don't know yet. 
Visit www.m3.org.  

Ada-95 is another possibility.  Ada, the orignal version now called
Ada-83, has a bad reputation for being complex, used only in the
military, and has expensive compilers. But Ada-95 is much improved, and
free and cheap compilers exist.  There's a story about how an
inexperienced Ada-95 programmer, with only one week of work, made a
piece of software smaller and faster than some experienced assembly
language programmers who had been working a long time on the same
project.   So don't worry about efficiency.

Another language, I recommend less, is Oberon.  It has portability
problems in theory, but it seems to work OK in practice.  In a
comparison of five OO languages, C++ won the speed of execution contest,
and Oberon came in a close second.  Modula-3 was a close third.  (Ada-95
wasn't in this study.)   (FYI, the other two were Sather, which ran at
half speed, and some obscure interpreted language.)  Very easy to learn
yet can do anything C++ can, though not always as neatly.

Then there is Python, a very elegant language with a GUI interface to Tk
- it's totally portable to any platform.  The language is normally
interpreted, 


As for Java, for one client I experimented with some number-crunching
code and found Java to be too slower than C/C++. Althogh still
acceptable for what we were doing, it will become a problem if our
project ever grows beyond it's original scope.   Yes, clever software
design can make it acceptable, but do you want to spend the time doing
that clever designing and coding?

All the above languages, and Java, have garbage collection.  C++ does
not.  I have seen similar projects fail or die a slow death due to
memory and pointer bugs that couldn't be traced down. Even if fixed,
those kinds of bugs can take up a lot of time, and can lead to
disagreements among programmers who are not all in the same room
everyday.  That's the biggest point against C++, IMHO.  In favor of C++
is that it's very widely used - everyone knows it, and good compilers
are all over the place.

---

My expertise is in math and geometry, so when it's time to work on that
part of the code, I would be interested in following the work more
closely and contributing what I can.

--- 

Daren Scot Wilson
Member, ACM
dar### [at] pipelinecom
www.newcolor.com
--
If you enjoyed this e-mail, please deposit a dime!

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How many times have people started a POV-Ray modeller project?

How many actually got going?   

For those prjects that died or never got started - why?  Lack of
manpower?  Cracked under the weight of overambitious goals?  Coding
bugs?

Especially, what happend to the spurt of interest last May?  

-- 
Daren Scot Wilson
Member, ACM
dar### [at] pipelinecom
www.newcolor.com
--
If you enjoyed this e-mail, please deposit a dime!

Post a reply to this message

Why doesn't someone write a garbage collector for C++? I'm not a
programmer or I would do it myself.

Daren Scot Wilson wrote:

<snip>
> All the above languages, and Java, have garbage collection.  C++ does
> not.  I have seen similar projects fail or die a slow death due to
> memory and pointer bugs that couldn't be traced down. Even if fixed,
> those kinds of bugs can take up a lot of time, and can lead to
> disagreements among programmers who are not all in the same room
> everyday.  That's the biggest point against C++, IMHO.  In favor of C++
> is that it's very widely used - everyone knows it, and good compilers
> are all over the place.

-- 
Bryan M. Smith
bms### [at] teleportcom
 
The nice thing about Windows is - It does not just crash, it displays a
dialog box and lets you press 'OK' first.

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:30:07 -0700, Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:

>> How many times have people started a POV-Ray modeller project?
>>
>> How many actually got going?
>  Actualy Daren the IMP internet movie project is alive and living.
>The current membership is over 200 people and growing steadily.

[blah, blah, blah...]

Funny, I could have sworn this thread was about modellers and was
actually relevant to povray.programming.  Guess I'm getting senile
in my old age.

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:33:50 -0700, Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:

>Ronald L. Parker wrote:
>
>> Funny, I could have sworn this thread was about modellers and was
>> actually relevant to povray.programming.  Guess I'm getting senile
>> in my old age.
>
>  I promise not to post in your group again. Sorry.


Thanks.  Most people don't even notice that I was responsible for the
formation of povray.programming. But really, nobody minds you posting
here.  Just try to make it about programming in some way.

Post a reply to this message

Ronald L. Parker wrote in message <36094ed0.227621016@news.povray.org>...
>
>Thanks.  Most people don't even notice that I was responsible for the
>formation of povray.programming.

So what??? Want a medal or what?

Johannes.

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:54:52 +0200, Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse> wrote:
>Ronald L. Parker wrote in message <36094ed0.227621016@news.povray.org>...
>>
>>Thanks.  Most people don't even notice that I was responsible for the
>>formation of povray.programming.
>
>So what??? Want a medal or what?

No, Johannes, I don't want a medal.  But I get sick of reading the same
stupid messages week after week in povray.general, especially the ones 
that are crossposted willy-nilly to other inappropriate forums, and I get 
really sick of seeing them come here, to a forum that heretofore has 
stayed pretty much on topic.  Great as the Internet Movie Project is, it
has nothing to do with programming and nothing to do with the thread at
hand.  I tried to tell Ken that and he thinks I want to control the group.

This group is the only place on the net (other than #povray and maybe
DKB-L) where you can talk about programming for POV without being 
overwhelmed by newbies asking how to save their images as .jpgs.  
Unfortunately, we still get the questions asking how to rotate a cube 
after you translate it, but most people seem to understand that writing 
scripts isn't programming.  I, for one, would like to keep this group 
dedicated to programming, so I do what I can to let people know when 
they're off-topic.  Perhaps I'm a bit abrasive in that pursuit, but I 
know I'm not as abrasive as some other people who post here.

Post a reply to this message

Ron Parker wrote in message <36065898.0@news.povray.org>...
>On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:54:52 +0200, Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse>
wrote:
>
[snip]

>especially the ones
>that are crossposted willy-nilly to other inappropriate forums,

I support you in that I don't like the crossposting either and that I think
people should stick to the appropriate groups. But:

>Perhaps I'm a bit abrasive in that pursuit, but I
>know I'm not as abrasive as some other people who post here.

My own abrasiveness (nice word! :-) when I asked if you wanted a medal was
because I thought you were a bit *too* abrasive when you pounced on Ken like
that, for a mere misunderstanding.
I read his initial posting where he promoted the IMP, and I realized at
once, that he had something wrong here. While the other person's post was
about some programming project, Ken had obviously misunderstood it being
about the IMP. That is a simple mistake, like humans do them all the time,
and can't really be compared to obnoxious people asking newby questions
about "how to rotate a cube" in a totally unrelated group. After all, Ken
*was* thinking (at least as I see it) that he was simply replying to
something someone else had asked about. So in his eyes (before he realized,
that the other person hadn't asked about the IMP at all), if someone was
off-topic, then this other person.

Johannes.

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert wrote:

> I support you in that I don't like the crossposting either and that I think
> people should stick to the appropriate groups. But:
>
> >Perhaps I'm a bit abrasive in that pursuit, but I
> >know I'm not as abrasive as some other people who post here.
>
> My own abrasiveness (nice word! :-) when I asked if you wanted a medal was
> because I thought you were a bit *too* abrasive when you pounced on Ken like
> that, for a mere misunderstanding.
> Johannes.

  Thanks for the defense Johannes. I indeed took the subject line out of
context. I misread the intent of the thread, was probably a little tired,
and should have paid more attention. But I too agree the correction
could have been a little more diplomatic. Anyway there are other groups
I can help out in, and for the time being I will stay out of Ron's povray
programming group, if it will keep him happy.

Ken

P.S. Can somebdy tell me how to rotate an object after I have
translated it and then have povray save it as a .jpg file for me ?

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:24:43 +0200, "Johannes Hubert"
<jhu### [at] algonetse> wrote:

>Ron Parker wrote in message <36065898.0@news.povray.org>...
>>On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:54:52 +0200, Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse>
>wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>
>>especially the ones
>>that are crossposted willy-nilly to other inappropriate forums,
>
>I support you in that I don't like the crossposting either and that I think
>people should stick to the appropriate groups. But:
>
>>Perhaps I'm a bit abrasive in that pursuit, but I
>>know I'm not as abrasive as some other people who post here.
>
>My own abrasiveness (nice word! :-) when I asked if you wanted a medal was
>because I thought you were a bit *too* abrasive when you pounced on Ken like
>that, for a mere misunderstanding.

You are right, as usual.  I wasn't having a good day that day, and I
shouldn't have let it seep into my posting.  I'll try to control my
abrasiveness.

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:45:04 -0700, Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:

>Johannes Hubert wrote:
>
>> I support you in that I don't like the crossposting either and that I think
>> people should stick to the appropriate groups. But:
>>
>> >Perhaps I'm a bit abrasive in that pursuit, but I
>> >know I'm not as abrasive as some other people who post here.
>>
>> My own abrasiveness (nice word! :-) when I asked if you wanted a medal was
>> because I thought you were a bit *too* abrasive when you pounced on Ken like
>> that, for a mere misunderstanding.
>> Johannes.
>
>  Thanks for the defense Johannes. I indeed took the subject line out of
>context. I misread the intent of the thread, was probably a little tired,
>and should have paid more attention. But I too agree the correction
>could have been a little more diplomatic. 

I think so too.  Sorry I was so mean, Ken.  I wasn't feeling too hot
that day either.

>nyway there are other groups
>I can help out in, and for the time being I will stay out of Ron's povray
>programming group, if it will keep him happy.

It's not my group.  If you want to post here, please feel free.  You
often seem to have a pretty good insight into how POV works.  But
please try to keep it on-topic.

Post a reply to this message

Daren Scot Wilson <dar### [at] pipelinecom> wrote in article
<360### [at] pipelinecom>...
> How many times have people started a POV-Ray modeller project?
> 
> How many actually got going?   
> 
> For those prjects that died or never got started - why?  Lack of
> manpower?  Cracked under the weight of overambitious goals?  Coding
> bugs?
> 
> Especially, what happend to the spurt of interest last May?  
> 

	What happened last May ?
-- 
Scott Hill
Sco### [at] DDLinkscouk
Software Engineer (and all round nice guy)
Author of Pandora's Box
Company homepage : http://www.ddlinks.demon.co.uk

"The best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't
exist..."
								- Verbal Kint.

"the Internet is here so we can waste time talking about nothing in 
 particular when we should be working" - Marcus Hill.

Post a reply to this message

>         What happened last May ?

There were a lot of messages in this newsgroup then, then it tailed
off.  Could be I missed something, and they all went to another
newsgroup.  Maybe the project never got started.  

-- 
Daren Scot Wilson

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