so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
disposition, do not read on.

I wanted to air, for some time now, the (perceived) grievances I harbour
regarding all-things-POV-Ray.

being used as a benchmarking s/ware when new processors are launched
is nice _but_ should not be(come) the primary (or only) role of POV-Ray.

POV-Ray, as a product, is .. lacking, across the spectrum, imo.
if POV-Ray was a human, I'd say that it is a magnificent body,
withering away because the head is .. ill.

let's start with the website, because for potential new users, that is
what will be looked at.

in the "POV-Ray-related News", for instance, we have "POV-Ray 3.7.1"
entering the  "beta phase".  3.8 alphas do not, apparently, exist,
and no mention of direction/what's happening now, either.

for instance, on April 14th 2018 user "Fred Lopes" announced a book
on POV-Ray, free, albeit in Portuguese/Brazilian.
not newsworthy, apparently.  in fact, not a single reply was posted.

the most recent item is a bit of .. self-congratulatory back-slapping,
dated Aug 2019, but the bulk of items is dated 2016, and older.

also, while the HOF sidebar _is_ nice, showing more recent works, on
a rotating basis, would be good/better.  you know, stuff by artists,
Norbert Kern, for instance, the Thomas de Groot's, Pekka Aho's, etc.

and regarding the "Resources : Links" page, why is it allowed to be so
lacking in relevance?  and to be so _full_ of dead links?
is the 'POV-TAG' doing any work, at all?

and why does the "Support" button simply link to the NNTP server?
(suggest the Wiki would be a more appropriate target)

and POV-Ray ought to have a (well-advertised) IRC channel too, imo.

then there's the (perceived) lack of direction.
so, WFP is developing 'povr', JG is developing his 'hg' series,
but _who_ is working on POV-Ray's development?

not helped by the fact that feature requests, when they're made in
a newsgroup post, do not even elicit a developer's response, generally;
('clipka' being the noteworthy exception)

what is needed, desperately imo, is keeping users in-the-loop, that is,
publish what is being worked on and an approximate schedule, regarding
those features.  tell "us", roughly, when will we be going from 3.8.0a
to the next release.

and it would be nice to think that when you make decisions wrt future
development, you will not do things like creating a dependency on a
multimedia and gaming library (SDL) just to draw a window!

then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
(hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and
the financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)

lack of resources, whether $$ or people, cannot be an explanation,
because, if it were, then why are offers of financial support, and or
a willingness to purchase POV-Ray related content, totally ignored?

basically then, I blame the people at the top, the mysterious POV-TAG
team, and Messrs Cason and Froehlich, for the .. stagnance (and more).
proud to have their names in the banner, but not willing (or able) to
pull their thumbs out of the collective back-orifice.


exasperated regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

"jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> disposition, do not read on.
>
> I wanted to air, for some time now, the (perceived) grievances I harbour
> regarding all-things-POV-Ray.
>
> being used as a benchmarking s/ware when new processors are launched
> is nice _but_ should not be(come) the primary (or only) role of POV-Ray.
>
> POV-Ray, as a product, is .. lacking, across the spectrum, imo.
> if POV-Ray was a human, I'd say that it is a magnificent body,
> withering away because the head is .. ill.
>
> let's start with the website, because for potential new users, that is
> what will be looked at.
>
> in the "POV-Ray-related News", for instance, we have "POV-Ray 3.7.1"
> entering the  "beta phase".  3.8 alphas do not, apparently, exist,
> and no mention of direction/what's happening now, either.
>
> for instance, on April 14th 2018 user "Fred Lopes" announced a book
> on POV-Ray, free, albeit in Portuguese/Brazilian.
> not newsworthy, apparently.  in fact, not a single reply was posted.
>
> the most recent item is a bit of .. self-congratulatory back-slapping,
> dated Aug 2019, but the bulk of items is dated 2016, and older.
>
> also, while the HOF sidebar _is_ nice, showing more recent works, on
> a rotating basis, would be good/better.  you know, stuff by artists,
> Norbert Kern, for instance, the Thomas de Groot's, Pekka Aho's, etc.
>
> and regarding the "Resources : Links" page, why is it allowed to be so
> lacking in relevance?  and to be so _full_ of dead links?
> is the 'POV-TAG' doing any work, at all?
>
> and why does the "Support" button simply link to the NNTP server?
> (suggest the Wiki would be a more appropriate target)
>
> and POV-Ray ought to have a (well-advertised) IRC channel too, imo.
>
> then there's the (perceived) lack of direction.
> so, WFP is developing 'povr', JG is developing his 'hg' series,
> but _who_ is working on POV-Ray's development?
>
> not helped by the fact that feature requests, when they're made in
> a newsgroup post, do not even elicit a developer's response, generally;
> ('clipka' being the noteworthy exception)
>
> what is needed, desperately imo, is keeping users in-the-loop, that is,
> publish what is being worked on and an approximate schedule, regarding
> those features.  tell "us", roughly, when will we be going from 3.8.0a
> to the next release.
>
> and it would be nice to think that when you make decisions wrt future
> development, you will not do things like creating a dependency on a
> multimedia and gaming library (SDL) just to draw a window!
>
> then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
> how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
> (hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and
> the financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)
>
> lack of resources, whether $$ or people, cannot be an explanation,
> because, if it were, then why are offers of financial support, and or
> a willingness to purchase POV-Ray related content, totally ignored?
>
> basically then, I blame the people at the top, the mysterious POV-TAG
> team, and Messrs Cason and Froehlich, for the .. stagnance (and more).
> proud to have their names in the banner, but not willing (or able) to
> pull their thumbs out of the collective back-orifice.
>
>
> exasperated regards, jr.


not only has PovRay changed.
The whole world of hobby programming has evolved and shrunk to a few hundred
people worldwide.
(I DO NOT consider programming activities to put together something written and
copied for smartphones). In 40 years, the ability and interest of the population
in somewhat complex mental structures has diminished. Everything else is a
consequence of a failed world. I don't know why, maybe it's just the story that
has a negative cycle.

Post a reply to this message

On 02.07.2020 11:57, jr wrote:
> basically then, I blame the people at the top, the mysterious POV-TAG
> team, and Messrs Cason and Froehlich, for the .. stagnance (and more).
> proud to have their names in the banner, but not willing (or able) to
> pull their thumbs out of the collective back-orifice.

No, actually, I left the team many years ago. It is just that since I 
left, no new major release has happened, hence I am still pretty far at 
the top of the list of developers. Chris has also mostly moved on, he 
just keeps the website and this server running.

If nobody takes over, this is the way it is ... and yes, I do share your 
sense that everything is outdated. But really not my problem, given this 
is open source...

Thorsten

Post a reply to this message

in news:5efdd904@news.povray.org Thorsten wrote:

> open source...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzxcILudFWM

Post a reply to this message

On 02.07.2020 18:59, ingo wrote:
> in news:5efdd904@news.povray.org Thorsten wrote:
>> open source...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzxcILudFWM

Well, some people think this way, I know. Quick rewards is all that is 
left on the internet, I know. However, if you have to put no effort into 
achievement, does it have any value?

Post a reply to this message

This post raises a few questions which are worthy of discussion. There
are some issues in play that most people would not expect. I'll post a
followup covering as much of them as I can once I get time to write it
up (should be less than a day).

-- Chris

Post a reply to this message

Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> disposition, do not read on.
> 
[snip]

I am glad you started this discussion. For a number of years I too have 
been wondering what really was going on behind the scene, with sometimes 
getting a hint about possible issues (man power and time most 
obviously). I believe we all would be helped with a bit of serious 
information, not in the least because we - as  mostly long-time users - 
might perhaps offer some kinds of solutions.

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

hi,

"GioSeregni" <gms### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> "jr" <cre### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> > so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> > disposition, do not read on.  ...
>
> not only has PovRay changed.
> The whole world of hobby programming has evolved and shrunk to a few hundred
> people worldwide.

yes, it feels that way, unfortunately.

> (I DO NOT consider programming activities to put together something written and
> copied for smartphones). In 40 years, the ability and interest of the population
> in somewhat complex mental structures has diminished.

again, agree, it _certainly_ feels that way.

> Everything else is a consequence of a failed world. I don't know why, maybe
> it's just the story that has a negative cycle.

coming to a "grinding halt"[*] soon, though (there _always_ is a silver lining..
 :-))


regards, jr.

[*] with apologies to The Cure.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> > so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> > disposition, do not read on.
> >
> [snip]
>
> I am glad you started this discussion. For a number of years I too have
> been wondering ...

thanks.  yes, long overdue.  fingers crossed.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Thorsten <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> On 02.07.2020 11:57, jr wrote:
> > basically then, I blame the people at the top, the mysterious POV-TAG
> > team, and Messrs Cason and Froehlich, for the .. stagnance (and more).
> > proud to have their names in the banner, but not willing (or able) to
> > pull their thumbs out of the collective back-orifice.
>
> No, actually, I left the team many years ago.

unless you left on or around February 2007, I don't see how that absolves you
from (yr share of) the blame, ie letting POV-Ray "run down" to its present
state.

> ...   But really not my problem, given this is open source...

ime, flippancy/glibness can be a bit like an auto-immune response -- entirely
subconscious.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Thorsten <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> On 02.07.2020 18:59, ingo wrote:
> > in news:5efdd904@news.povray.org Thorsten wrote:
> >> open source...
> Well, some people think this way, I know. Quick rewards is all that is
> left on the internet, I know. However, if you have to put no effort into
> achievement, does it have any value?

if _that_ is the "message" you took away from the talk posted by ingo, then, I'd
suggest, yr comprehension of spoken English is .. rudimentary, at best.

(my impression however, in keeping with my expectations, is that you simply did
not listen)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

sorry for late reply.  (slipped my mind)

Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> This post raises a few questions which are worthy of discussion.

thanks.

> ... some issues in play that most people would not expect. I'll post a
> followup covering as much of them as I can once I get time to write it
> up (should be less than a day).

(I'm a great believer in "sunshine is the best disinfectant".  :-))


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On 03.07.2020 11:56, jr wrote:
>> No, actually, I left the team many years ago.
> 
> unless you left on or around February 2007, I don't see how that absolves you
> from (yr share of) the blame, ie letting POV-Ray "run down" to its present
> state.

No, given all contributions are made voluntarily, I have no 
responsibility beyond my actual contributions.

	Thorsten

Post a reply to this message

On 03.07.2020 12:00, jr wrote:
> if _that_ is the "message" you took away from the talk posted by ingo, then, I'd
> suggest, yr comprehension of spoken English is .. rudimentary, at best.
> 
> (my impression however, in keeping with my expectations, is that you simply did
> not listen)

No, I did listen. And he is completely right about the license. I know, 
because it cost Chris and me an extreme amount of non-quality time and a 
lot of money to get all the contributor agreements to relicense under 
AGPL3.

It is just his approach that one should give and expect an instant award 
for contributing that I absolutely do not share. And as I said, also do 
know that the second generation of WWW users developed his expectation. 
But I do not have to agree, and I just don't.

Thorsten

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Thorsten <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> ...
> No, I did listen. And he is completely right about the license. I know,
> because it cost Chris and me an extreme amount of non-quality time and a
> lot of money to get all the contributor agreements to relicense under
> AGPL3.
>
> It is just his approach that one should give and expect an instant award
> for contributing that I absolutely do not share. And as I said, also do
> know that the second generation of WWW users developed his expectation.
> But I do not have to agree, and I just don't.

happy to agree that the immediate reward and the everyone-can-merge wouldn't be
my choice, either.

but, "the message" I took from his talk was that an successful open source
project tends to be one where the maintainers create, and then foster, an
"atmosphere" that allows the users/"community" to .. coalesce around shared
goal(s), and play an active part of that pursuit.  and perhaps the fact that "it
cost Chris and me an extreme amount of non-quality time and a lot of money" is
simply an indication that the (potential) "support base" ought to have been
asked to become involved; anyway, by the by.

(I find it very interesting that you have not touched on this point, at all,
even though it would seem pertinent wrt this debate)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

I was going to post a long reply but have come to the conclusion that
really it doesn't matter how we got to this point, what matters is where
we go.

Yes we have a manpower issue. Yes I have not helped by not steering the
boat. To be honest, though, after more than 25 years involvement in the
project I see my role more as one of keeping POV-Ray stable and making
sure that it works as designed on modern CPU's and modern operating systems.

I have not done feature development for some time and as I have moved
away from C++ professionally (I primarily develop in C# in my day job
nowadays) I'm really not the best person to be doing core work anymore
(that's not to say I can't, just that I feel it's best left to someone
who is using C++ on a regular basis).

Clipka has apparently moved on to doing other things. We had been hoping
he was just taking some time off but it's pretty clear by now that we
can't expect him back.

Where to go from here? What can you guys do to help? Good questions. Let
me ping the other guys on our mailing list and see what they think.

-- Chris

Post a reply to this message

Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> I was going to post a long reply but have come to the conclusion that
> really it doesn't matter how we got to this point, what matters is where
> we go.

Personally, yes.  With regard to the evolution of the code; however, the _how_
of that is relevant and integral to understanding problems and formulating
solutions.  We need context.

> Yes we have a manpower issue. Yes I have not helped by not steering the
> boat. To be honest, though, after more than 25 years involvement in the
> project I see my role more as one of keeping POV-Ray stable and making
> sure that it works as designed on modern CPU's and modern operating systems.

I hear you, and the following statement is a point to consider, not to cast
blame on anyone, etc.
I've worked on a LOT of things with a LOT of people, and the bigger something
gets, the more it stagnates - because no one knows what to do, can't see the big
picture, doesn't want any of the responsibility, and so they resort to the safe,
blame-free option of "that's not my job."
Of course, no one else knows whose job it IS, and they don't have, or feel that
they have the authority to implement a solution (and then there's the 'no good
deed will go unpunished' phenomenon.  If YOU try to fix something, and it
'breaks' (it was rotten to the core and 'fixed' [badly] 30 times before, and
everyone was just waiting for it to break anyway) then it's obvious who to point
the finger at.
So in order to get people involved, and working on doing productive things, we
need to remedy that, and invite people in to participate in the development
side.

> I have not done feature development for some time and as I have moved
> away from C++ professionally (I primarily develop in C# in my day job
> nowadays) I'm really not the best person to be doing core work anymore
> (that's not to say I can't, just that I feel it's best left to someone
> who is using C++ on a regular basis).

I don't think that anyone really expects you to dive in and code a solution for
all of the things that need improvement or are missing.
But after 25 years, you surely have an excellent overview of everything, and are
privy to a lot of information.  That's a position that few, if no one else is
in.
You can provide illuminating information and context.
See below.

> Clipka has apparently moved on to doing other things. We had been hoping
> he was just taking some time off but it's pretty clear by now that we
> can't expect him back.

It's a hobby, after all, and for a young guy, he invested an astonishing amount
of time and talent working on the source code and helping clueless schmucks like
me to ascend the learning curve step by painful and hard-won step.
I hope someone is paying him well for his intelligence and skill, and he's
getting some enjoyment out of life.  He deserves it, and he will be missed.


> Where to go from here? What can you guys do to help? Good questions. Let
> me ping the other guys on our mailing list and see what they think.

There are 2 interrelated problems that I alluded to above.   One is the
monolithic "thing" that is POV-Ray, that invites stagnation, and the other -
which I only hinted at, is the opacity that ensures that it _does_ stagnate.

No one "here" knows what the positions of - responsibility - and decision-making
authority are, who holds them, how involved they are, how to contact them, or
what to do if they drop off the planet for reasons large or small.
If POV-Ray is some kind of corporation - and LLC or whatever, then no one really
knows how that works, and who the world-wide users of the product are.  That is
relevant, because for us it's a hobby image-renderer, whereas other people are
very well using it for scientific illustration, visualization of data, and other
more serious things in their professional lives. That's highly relevant when
solutions are needed and one has to understand the mechanisms under the hood and
the effects and repercussions of monkeying about with a giant pile of
25-year-old organically-grown code written by dozens of contributors who are
long gone.

There should at the very least be some redundancy in personnel, and a master
"key-ring" for things like important information files (development notes,
90%-done code snippets, etc), accounts, and administrative passwords (IIRC there
seems to be some issue regarding the object collection)

We don't know if there is money involved, where it comes from, what it's for, or
where it goes. (There must be, as there is a website, domain name, a server,
etc...)
POV-Ray is officially somehow in Australia, California, and Connecticut (in my
mind).

So, whether it's helpful or [perceived as] not, at the very least, I think it
would help educate the present collection of active users, clear the air, and
make "open" the _workings_ - the personal workings - of this "open source"
project to have a series of installments where things are just discussed, and
information is transferred.  A "board meeting" where people are kept in the
loop.
Some people are hanging on in quiet desperation - others are venting their
frustration, and others just --- give up and disappear.

None of what we do takes place in a vacuum, and the solutions won't magically
pop out of the Celestial interstitial space either. Narrowly, pedantically and
artificially restricting and compartmentalizing discussions to "raytracing with
POV-Ray as it exists at this exact point in time" don't really go anywhere -
what people using it on a voluntary basis need is context.

It would be great if there were a way to get some more long-time users a wiki
page so that their development work could more clearly be seen, and inspire
questions and possible solutions.

Maybe you could tell us some stories.  Bring up points of historical interest,
the current state of Dev team issues responsibility and workload, and enlighten
us about the actual usage of POV-Ray by people outside of this tiny forum, and
how "POV-Ray" finds new developers and advertises it existence, promotes
interest, raises funds, and appoints people to take on positions of
responsibility.   Give us context.

Thanks for being here for 25 years, and helping keep this thing alive in a
rapidly changing technological world.

Post a reply to this message

On 04.07.2020 14:36, Bald Eagle wrote:
> Chris Cason<del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg>  wrote:
>> I was going to post a long reply but have come to the conclusion that
>> really it doesn't matter how we got to this point, what matters is where
>> we go.
 >
> Personally, yes.  With regard to the evolution of the code; however, the_how_
> of that is relevant and integral to understanding problems and formulating
> solutions.  We need context.

I think the first thing to understand is that the code and the language 
are the way they are by design, and that design makes a real lot of 
sense if you take a serious and not a superficial look. And yes, even 
the scoping makes a real lot of sense. As do the limitations. All this 
has to be viewed in the context of the times most of the code was 
developed at.

I can't talk for Chris, but I do (usually) check the newsgroups once a 
week, and can explain a few things here and there. I have been around 
from 3.1 to 3.7 release cycles after all.

Thorsten

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> I was going to post a long reply but have come to the conclusion that
> really it doesn't matter how we got to this point, what matters is where
> we go.
> ...
> Where to go from here? What can you guys do to help? ...

personally, I'd like to see action on the website + wiki first.  because they're
(likely) the primary access points.

not sure I could offer any practical help, certainly not regarding code (am a
poor programmer and do not speak C++), but if I were to see a newsgroup post
asking for (other) help, I'd be happy to oblige, assuming I can meet the
requirement(s).


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> I was going to post a long reply but have come to the conclusion that
> really it doesn't matter how we got to this point, what matters is where
> we go.
>
> Yes we have a manpower issue. Yes I have not helped by not steering the
> boat. To be honest, though, after more than 25 years involvement in the
> project I see my role more as one of keeping POV-Ray stable and making
> sure that it works as designed on modern CPU's and modern operating systems.
>
> I have not done feature development for some time and as I have moved
> away from C++ professionally (I primarily develop in C# in my day job
> nowadays) I'm really not the best person to be doing core work anymore
> (that's not to say I can't, just that I feel it's best left to someone
> who is using C++ on a regular basis).
>
> Clipka has apparently moved on to doing other things. We had been hoping
> he was just taking some time off but it's pretty clear by now that we
> can't expect him back.
>
> Where to go from here? What can you guys do to help? Good questions. Let
> me ping the other guys on our mailing list and see what they think.
>
> -- Chris

Let me first say from the perspective of the relatively new user I am, that the
*real* picture is not as dark as it seems, coming from the very fast moving and
massive  Blender community I saw the recent POV technological moves happen in
the right direction faster than what I could witness at some turningpoints in
Blender's branching history.

Mostly thanks to Clipka, who had the good sense to really synch his Uberpov
branch and move back things to trunk from it as much as he could.

If we could we would be very well inspired to gather enough money to provide
some kind of Grant for Clipka... But how to do
that?

Has it been considered to at least make him a candidate for a Google Summer of
code campaign?... I have no doubt that he will be very much over the lot of
other candidates... The tutor could be one of the chairmen.

If this is not an option or not attractive enough for him, let's come up with
other ideas to fulfill this goal (a short term but professional contract for
Clipka !)

Post a reply to this message

On 04.07.2020 22:42, Mr wrote:
> Mostly thanks to Clipka, who had the good sense to really synch his Uberpov
> branch and move back things to trunk from it as much as he could.
> 
> If we could we would be very well inspired to gather enough money to provide
> some kind of Grant for Clipka... But how to do
> that?
> 
> Has it been considered to at least make him a candidate for a Google Summer of
> code campaign?... I have no doubt that he will be very much over the lot of
> other candidates... The tutor could be one of the chairmen.
> 
> If this is not an option or not attractive enough for him, let's come up with
> other ideas to fulfill this goal (a short term but professional contract for
> Clipka !)

He obviously is long out of university and has a real day job that pays 
well. Google summer of code is a student activity.

Thorsten

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Thorsten <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> On 04.07.2020 14:36, Bald Eagle wrote:
> > Chris Cason<del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg>  wrote:
> >> ...
> > ...
> I think the first thing to understand is that the code and the language
> are the way they are by design, and that design makes a real lot of
> sense if you take a serious and not a superficial look. ...
> I have been around from 3.1 to 3.7 release cycles after all.

that would seem to make you the person to ask a technical question.  :-)

while I'm quite happy with the SDL per se, I really miss "introspection" tools.
along the lines 'typeof()' and 'obj_info()'.

so, how difficult would it be, from your perspective, to implement a 'typeof()'
function which returns an integer value (no enums, alas) that could be used like
eg (with made-up "magic" numbers):

#switch (typeof(Name))
  #case (0)
    // have an object.
    #break
  #case (1)
    // have a vector.
    #break
  ...
#end

and, if in yr opinion it's not too difficult, can you please outline (roughly)
the steps, and, perhaps, the source files likely to be involved?


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

Thorsten <tho### [at] trfde> wrote:
> On 04.07.2020 22:42, Mr wrote:
> > Mostly thanks to Clipka, who had the good sense to really synch his Uberpov
> > branch and move back things to trunk from it as much as he could.
> >
> > If we could we would be very well inspired to gather enough money to provide
> > some kind of Grant for Clipka... But how to do
> > that?
> >
> > Has it been considered to at least make him a candidate for a Google Summer of
> > code campaign?... I have no doubt that he will be very much over the lot of
> > other candidates... The tutor could be one of the chairmen.
> >
> > If this is not an option or not attractive enough for him, let's come up with
> > other ideas to fulfill this goal (a short term but professional contract for
> > Clipka !)
>
> He obviously is long out of university and has a real day job that pays
> well. Google summer of code is a student activity.
>
> Thorsten

Okay. How about all these firms using POV for benchmark... wouldn't they gold
sponsor some kind of Patreon?

Post a reply to this message

Just a followup to say that Ill be posting another update in a little while.

-- Chris

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> > so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> > disposition, do not read on.
> >
> [snip]
>
> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
> helped with a bit of serious information, ...

tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other guys on
our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "... Ill be posting
another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no followups.

("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
in the long grass)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On 7/21/20 6:48 AM, jr wrote:
> hi,
> 
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
>>> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
>>> disposition, do not read on.
>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
>> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
> 
> tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other guys on
> our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "... Ill be posting
> another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no followups.
> 
> ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
> in the long grass)
> 
> 
> regards, jr.
> 

well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about 
the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to 
be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it 
done.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:48:45 -0400, jr wrote:

> hi,
> 
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
>> > so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a
>> > delicate disposition, do not read on.
>> >
>> [snip]
>>
>> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
>> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
> 
> tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other
> guys on our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "...
> Ill be posting another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no
> followups.
> 
> ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick
> the ball in the long grass)
> 
> 
> regards, jr.

What are you offering to do to help out?  Maybe you didn't notice, but 
nobody working on pov-ray is paid to do so, it's a volunteer effort.

People have lives, and I don't know if you noticed, but there's a lot of 
stuff going on in the world that has people pretty concerned.

Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.

My $0.02.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:48:45 -0400, jr wrote:
> > Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> >> > so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a
> >> > delicate disposition, do not read on.
> >> >
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
> >> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
> >
> > tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other
> > guys on our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "...
> > Ill be posting another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no
> > followups.
> >
> > ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick
> > the ball in the long grass)
>
> What are you offering to do to help out?  Maybe you didn't notice, but
> nobody working on pov-ray is paid to do so, it's a volunteer effort.

> People have lives, and I don't know if you noticed, but there's a lot of
> stuff going on in the world that has people pretty concerned.

there's always "stuff going on in the world" -- it's called life.

and if you're alluding to SARS-Cov-2, re-read the thread.  the "pandemic" cannot
be blamed for sitting on the Moray source for thirteen plus years.

> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.

<http://news.povray.org/web.5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>

> My $0.02.

(the USD isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  €0.02)

> "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
> besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

quite.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
> On 7/21/20 6:48 AM, jr wrote:
> > Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> >>> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> >>> disposition, do not read on.
> >>>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
> >> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
> >
> > tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other guys on
> > our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "... Ill be posting
> > another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no followups.
> >
> > ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
> > in the long grass)
>
> well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about
> the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to
> be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it
> done.

future code development isn't the only .. concern, but thanks for the update.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:32:24 -0400, jr wrote:

>> What are you offering to do to help out?  Maybe you didn't notice, but
>> nobody working on pov-ray is paid to do so, it's a volunteer effort.
> 
>> People have lives, and I don't know if you noticed, but there's a lot
>> of stuff going on in the world that has people pretty concerned.
> 
> there's always "stuff going on in the world" -- it's called life.

Exactly.

> and if you're alluding to SARS-Cov-2, re-read the thread.  the
> "pandemic" cannot be blamed for sitting on the Moray source for thirteen
> plus years.

And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when 
people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.

Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project team.

>> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> 
> <http://news.povray.org/web.5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>

Fair enough.

Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely 
observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them, 
and set their priorities as they see fit.

They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if you 
rant and complain to get action.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:32:24 -0400, jr wrote:
> ...
> > and if you're alluding to SARS-Cov-2, re-read the thread.  the
> > "pandemic" cannot be blamed for sitting on the Moray source for thirteen
> > plus years.
>
> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
>
> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project team.

hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals, who have
managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for instance, a fully
standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer than thirteen years.

(for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)

> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> >
> > <http://news.povray.org/web.5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
>
> Fair enough.

very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling, also, or so
I think.  :-))

> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
> and set their priorities as they see fit.
>
> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if you
> rant and complain to get action.

uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 15:37:46 -0400, jr wrote:

>> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
>> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
>>
>> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project
>> team.
> 
> hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals,
> who have managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for
> instance, a fully standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer
> than thirteen years.

Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that 
other people live their lives by.

> (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)

Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't 
contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people who 
have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm not 
willing or able to step up and contribute to.

>> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
>> >
>> > <http://news.povray.org/web.
5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
>>
>> Fair enough.
> 
> very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling,
> also, or so I think.  :-))

Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my 
newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.

>> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
>> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
>> and set their priorities as they see fit.
>>
>> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if
>> you rant and complain to get action.
> 
> uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)

I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of 
development and throwing blame around.

The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting 
together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to 
motivate people to do what you want them to do.

It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've 
been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's 
being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't 
appreciate people being dicks to my friends.

I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray 
to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this 
code reviewed and made available?".

If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being 
a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own 
the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 7/21/20 2:36 PM, jr wrote:
> hi,
> 
> Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
>> On 7/21/20 6:48 AM, jr wrote:
>>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>>>> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
>>>>> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
>>>>> disposition, do not read on.
>>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
>>>> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
>>>
>>> tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other guys on
>>> our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "... Ill be posting
>>> another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no followups.
>>>
>>> ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
>>> in the long grass)
>>
>> well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about
>> the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to
>> be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it
>> done.
> 
> future code development isn't the only .. concern, but thanks for the update.

against my better judgement i'm going to ask... what /else/ could you 
possibly be talking about!?!

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 15:37:46 -0400, jr wrote:
>
> >> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
> >> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
> >>
> >> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project
> >> team.
> >
> > hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals,
> > who have managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for
> > instance, a fully standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer
> > than thirteen years.
>
> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that
> other people live their lives by.

there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think I am
trying to tell anyone how to their life?

wrt the above, I simply point out that while some small teams, right down to the
smallest, manage to .. get on, that is not the case with POV-Ray, alas.  (or so
it seems)

> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)
>
> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people who
> have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm not
> willing or able to step up and contribute to.

eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even github,
more than just a select few could have at least have a look at the .. task at
hand.

> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> >> >
> >> > <http://news.povray.org/web.
> 5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
> >>
> >> Fair enough.
> >
> > very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling,
> > also, or so I think.  :-))
>
> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.

thanks.

and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the news
server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main website.  so why
then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the news section so .. not news?
surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have sometime
in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0 alphas?  (I mean,
seriously, how many minutes would one need writing ~150 words?)

> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
> >> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
> >> and set their priorities as they see fit.
> >>
> >> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if
> >> you rant and complain to get action.
> >
> > uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)
>
> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
> development and throwing blame around.
>
> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
>
> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.

no one's asking "for an update".  have you even read the initial "rant"?

>  You've
> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's
> being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't
> appreciate people being dicks to my friends.
>
> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray
> to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this
> code reviewed and made available?".

no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not the first
to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.

> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being
> a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own
> the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this develop
in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the s/ware I've grown
fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned now, because days turn
into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet, no real attempt at
communicating the context.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
> On 7/21/20 2:36 PM, jr wrote:
> >>> ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
> >>> in the long grass)
> >>
> >> well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about
> >> the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to
> >> be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it
> >> done.
> >
> > future code development isn't the only .. concern, but thanks for the update.
>
> against my better judgement i'm going to ask... what /else/ could you
> possibly be talking about!?!

selection: website maintenance; answers to questions like "why don't we have an
official IRC channel?" and "why isn't the Moray source somewhere the public has
access?"; "community", that talk posted by ingo touched on some points.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:

>> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms
>> that other people live their lives by.
> 
> there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think
> I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?

The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and 
essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get some 
work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming 
across).

> wrt the above, I simply point out that while some small teams, right
> down to the smallest, manage to .. get on, that is not the case with
> POV-Ray, alas.  (or so it seems)

ie, you're stating your expectation that the developers get to work on 
the future of POV-Ray, and trying to apply pressure to do something.

You don't get to do that.  You're not their boss.

>> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
>> > looms)
>>
>> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
>> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people
>> who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm
>> not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
> 
> eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
> github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look at
> the .. task at hand.

And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code 
*can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that 
needs to be scrubbed.

But it's easier to bitch than to review the information that's already 
out there in order to understand.

>> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
>> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the
> news server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main
> website.  so why then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the
> news section so .. not news?

I don't have admin privileges for the news server or the wiki (any 
more).  I helped get the wiki set up, but life got busy, and I handed off 
to someone else.

> surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have
> sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0
> alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need writing
> ~150 words?)

You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply 
aren't true.

>> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
>> development and throwing blame around.
>>
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
>>
>> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.
> 
> no one's asking "for an update".  have you even read the initial "rant"?

I did.  And if you had just asked for an update as to what's going on, we 
wouldn't be having this discussion.

But instead, you posted a whiny rant bitching about the lack of progress 
on all things pov-ray.

>> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
>> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
>> this code reviewed and made available?".
> 
> no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not
> the first to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.

From your rant:

"then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
(hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and the
financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)"

That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's whining, 
plain and simple.

"What's the latest on Moray?" - that's inquiring about the status of that 
code.

> 
>> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're
>> being a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult
>> enough to own the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a
>> window.
> 
> directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this
> develop in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the
> s/ware I've grown fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned
> now, because days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet,
> no real attempt at communicating the context.

So maybe ask a question instead of whining and bitching about various 
aspects that aren't moving to your personal satisfaction.  Don't be a 
dick about it, be respectful of the fact that people have lives, and you 
don't know what they're doing.

You weren't direct.  You were just plain rude.

You aren't letting this "develop in to a .. slanging match" - you started 
by slinging shit.  You don't get to walk away and pretend you didn't try 
to start something here.

I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a 
really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years 
back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own 
limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities 
in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here 
stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this 
software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to 
help.

You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick out 
a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then instead 
of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in which you 
might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping promote it.  
Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that are broken 
don't remain so.

But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless, 
pointless, and downright rude.
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that
> other people live their lives by.

If only the world of People held to that when they voted.  :|

> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.

To be fair, I think that's a more difficult proposition than it seems.   It's
like throwing a resume out into the job market.
Personalities aside, I think that the core issue is still that no one knows who
is responsible for what, and it's hard to grasp what can and needs to be done
when one is not privy to things discussed by "the dev team" and other groups
with various designations.
When there are difficulties, it is easy to deflect any and all discussion by
painting someone as [merely] "a complainer".  Or to ignore them, or simply
maintain radio silence.
"What you allow, is what will continue."
Perhaps jr is being "disagreeable," but that doesn't invalidate any of his
points, and it is perhaps, what is needed.  If POV-Ray was a company, it would
be sensible to listen to and consider the customer's [user's] concerns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXo1aFb8MY


> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.
On the flipside, one might say that being patient won't either.

> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
> development and throwing blame around.

Would it help if they did?
Does it matter that jr IS?
I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of damned if you do, and damned if you
don't.
We can discuss 1. people, 2. events, or 3. IDEAS.
We can leave jr completely out of this, and still address the issues he raises.

> .... putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.

No, but the 12-steppers would say that the first step to fixing things is
recognizing that you have a problem.   Whether you like they way they tell you
or not is - from a POV-Ray development standpoint - irrelevant.
There have been plenty of people here, over the years, who have shoved my nose
in the pile of code that I've deposited on the carpet, and metaphorically beat
me with the rolled up newspaper until the answers began to glimmer through the
thinner parts of my thick skull.
Polite?  Tactful?  Probably not.
Effective?   Seemed to be.
I've made it this far, and don't tend to ask _as many_ completely idiotic
questions.

> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've
> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's
> being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't
> appreciate people being dicks to my friends.

Maybe he's "being a dick", and maybe he's not.
Maybe he's old and cranky and cantankerous, and having a bad blood-sugar day, or
it's hot and muggy, and he ran out of both coffee and patience.
But he is being assertive and trying to keep this on the front burner.
If he was a boss or a supervisor (whose underlings generally consider them
dicks) he'd "just be doing his job."
Sooner or later, someone is going to come by with a sword and take a mighty
swing at the Gordian Knot.
It seems to me that jr might simply be willing to volunteer to be the "lightning
rod" that others aren't willing to be.
A rule of thumb in complaints and customer service is that for every complaint,
there are 300 others just like it that haven't been communicated.

> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray
> to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this
> code reviewed and made available?".

My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have the
code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it proprietary or
whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being
> a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own
> the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

Regardless of his level of impatience or tact, I would respectfully submit that
the issues raised still stand on their own, and so perhaps we can pretend that
Princess Penelope Petunia batted her eyelashes and curtsied while demurely
asking that a teensy favor of hers be granted.

Also, in all fairness, he / we were promised an answer/response, and jr seems to
be abiding by the Russian proverb - an admonition to "trust, but verify."

The world is full of plenty of dicks who don't want to answer questions "because
of the tone that they were asked in", even when it's in every way proper to hold
them accountable.  Damned citizen taxpayers being jerks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IeGqIIHj4

So - let's not be THAT way either.

Now, ruffled feathers or not, there are still some of us sitting out here in the
Peanut Gallery who are interested in answers, information, history, opinions,
and other levels and forms of discussion on the topics raised about POV-Ray, and
Moray.

Please, and a preemptive Thank You.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
> ...
> > there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think
> > I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?
>
> The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and
> essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get some
> work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming
> across).

stagnation, yes, and not confined to development.  and yes, I aired my
"perceived grievances".

> ...
> >> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
> >> > looms)
> >>
> >> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
> >> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people
> >> who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm
> >> not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
> >
> > eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
> > github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look at
> > the .. task at hand.
>
> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
> *can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
> needs to be scrubbed.

_parts_ of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been worked on,
and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code could not
have been published.

and no, personally I could not contribute to a C++ code base, however, I, as I'm
sure are others, would be prepared to contribute via some type of subscription
model, to fund the odd "journey man", for instance.

> ...
> > surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have
> > sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0
> > alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need writing
> > ~150 words?)
>
> You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply
> aren't true.

I assume that, even in a small team of volunteers (and even if all of those
volunteers were single parents), within a time frame of a good two years,
_someone_ will find five minutes to  write a piece, and a further five minutes
to update the website, to "announce" the 3.8.0 alpha(s).  are you telling me I'm
(completely) wrong?

> ...
> >> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
> >> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
> >> this code reviewed and made available?".
> >
> > no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not
> > the first to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.
>
> From your rant:
>
> "then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
> how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
> (hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and the
> financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)"
>
> That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's whining,
> plain and simple.

rant, whining, same thing.  as advertised.  I've addressed "Moray" above, and
see nothing wrong with .. venting frustration when "things get kicked in the
long grass" for years on end.

> ...
> > directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this
> > develop in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the
> > s/ware I've grown fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned
> > now, because days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet,
> > no real attempt at communicating the context.
>
> So maybe ask a question instead of whining and bitching about various
> aspects that aren't moving to your personal satisfaction.  Don't be a
> dick about it, be respectful of the fact that people have lives, and you
> don't know what they're doing.
>
> You weren't direct.  You were just plain rude.
>
> You aren't letting this "develop in to a .. slanging match" - you started
> by slinging shit.  You don't get to walk away and pretend you didn't try
> to start something here.
>
> I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a
> really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years
> back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own
> limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities
> in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here
> stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this
> software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to
> help.

so where then is the wiki or wherever page which lists the things "to do"?
where is the out-reach to community asking for specific help on this or that?
in order to offer help, it would help (pun intended) to know of specific
outstanding tasks/issues.  can you even point to any ng post in the last, uh,
four years or so, where you, or a member of the mysterious TAG, has asked for
help with anything?

> You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick out
> a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then instead
> of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in which you
> might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping promote it.
> Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that are broken
> don't remain so.

just seeing that news-which-isn't section of the website suggests that dead
links, for example, if reported, would be addressed with the same .. alacrity?
(if no one in the whole POV-Ray "team" found time in the last two years to write
a 3.8.0 item, what chance they'd find time updating the links section?)

as for the "head is ill" analogy, I think that the talk posted by ingo made good
points about how "maintainers" can create environments where cooperation is
productive; part of it is communicating the "broad brush strokes", and I see no
evidence of even that.

(and if I had the technical know-how to set up and maintain an IRC channel, for
instance, don't you think I'd have one on the go already?)

> But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless,
> pointless, and downright rude.

not sure about "pointless", unless you're happy with the .. status quo, as to
"completely useless", likely, that's the thing about "inertia".  and rudeness,
well, my rant was written to provoke a (long overdue, imo) look at the "now" --
where does POV-Ray go from here.  so far I hear a lot of criticism in response
to my critique, but not a single real answer.  (the whole "atmosphere" strikes
me as one like a big family gathering, when a child asks "where's uncle X?" and
every adult looks at one another, stricken faces, and then one will give an
"answer" that isn't any)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:38:32 -0400, Bald Eagle wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms
>> that other people live their lives by.
> 
> If only the world of People held to that when they voted.  :|

This isn't a democracy, so that line of thinking really doesn't apply.

>> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> 
> To be fair, I think that's a more difficult proposition than it seems.  
> It's like throwing a resume out into the job market.

He's identified several things that are not coding-related where he could 
step up and offer to assist.  Instead, he bitches about them.

That's not helpful.

> Personalities aside, I think that the core issue is still that no one
> knows who is responsible for what, and it's hard to grasp what can and
> needs to be done when one is not privy to things discussed by "the dev
> team" and other groups with various designations.

That is probably a fair assessment (I wouldn't speak for the pov team).

> When there are difficulties, it is easy to deflect any and all
> discussion by painting someone as [merely] "a complainer".  Or to ignore
> them, or simply maintain radio silence.
> "What you allow, is what will continue."
> Perhaps jr is being "disagreeable," but that doesn't invalidate any of
> his points, and it is perhaps, what is needed.  If POV-Ray was a
> company, it would be sensible to listen to and consider the customer's
> [user's] concerns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXo1aFb8MY

He's not being merely disagreeable.  He's being rude.

Your reply here is a great example of how to raise concerns without being 
a jerk.  (I for one appreciate that)

>> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.
> On the flipside, one might say that being patient won't either.

Being rude and impatient is quite different than asking questions and 
offering to help.  And yes, he did say he could help, but a vague offer 
of help is less useful than saying, for example, "maybe an IRC channel 
would help?  I could set that up and manage it if that would be of use".

Instead of just musing about that as a possibility.  Sure, it's a 
possibility.  Who does he think is going to say "yeah, I've got time for 
that".  Be part of the solution.

>> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
>> development and throwing blame around.
> 
> Would it help if they did?
> Does it matter that jr IS?
> I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of damned if you do, and damned if
> you don't.
> We can discuss 1. people, 2. events, or 3. IDEAS.
> We can leave jr completely out of this, and still address the issues he
> raises.

Certainly. Some of the issues he raises have merit, certainly.  Being a 
dick about how he raises them makes it a lot less likely he's going to 
get answers.

It is, contrary to seemingly popular opinion, possible to raise questions 
and concerns without being a dick about it.  People do it literally every 
single day.

>> .... putting together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great
>> way to motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> No, but the 12-steppers would say that the first step to fixing things
> is recognizing that you have a problem.   Whether you like they way they
> tell you or not is - from a POV-Ray development standpoint - irrelevant.

Presentation is important - if you want to be heard, present in a way 
that gets people to listen.

Make people defensive, and you're not likely to affect change.

Unless we're talking about a violent overthrow of the pov-ray project.

> There have been plenty of people here, over the years, who have shoved
> my nose in the pile of code that I've deposited on the carpet, and
> metaphorically beat me with the rolled up newspaper until the answers
> began to glimmer through the thinner parts of my thick skull.
> Polite?  Tactful?  Probably not.
> Effective?   Seemed to be.
> I've made it this far, and don't tend to ask _as many_ completely
> idiotic questions.

Which is fine for you.  Ever wonder how it would have worked out if 
people had treated you with respect instead?  I know which I prefer.

>> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've
>> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while
>> he's being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I
>> don't appreciate people being dicks to my friends.
> 
> Maybe he's "being a dick", and maybe he's not.

No, he's being a dick.  No question about it in my mind.

> Maybe he's old and cranky and cantankerous, and having a bad blood-sugar
> day, or it's hot and muggy, and he ran out of both coffee and patience.

Conversation's been going on for 19 days, and his attitude hasn't 
changed.  This isn't a one-off, and he's not apologised for being rude, 
other than the initial warning (which means he *knew* he was being a 
dick, and didn't care enough to rewrite his questions so he wouldn't need 
the disclaimer).

> But he is being assertive and trying to keep this on the front burner.
> If he was a boss or a supervisor (whose underlings generally consider
> them dicks) he'd "just be doing his job."

I am a boss/supervisor, and I can tell you, that is not a great way to 
motivate people if you want them to be loyal to you.

> Sooner or later, someone is going to come by with a sword and take a
> mighty swing at the Gordian Knot.
> It seems to me that jr might simply be willing to volunteer to be the
> "lightning rod" that others aren't willing to be.
> A rule of thumb in complaints and customer service is that for every
> complaint, there are 300 others just like it that haven't been
> communicated.

And if he had simply started by saying "I have some questions about the 
status of the project" and then laid them out without being a dick about 
it, we could've had a productive discussion.

Instead, he was a dick about it, and didn't get answers.  Gee, I wonder 
why?  Could it be that the people who could provide him with answers 
didn't want a second round of being publicly berated by someone who 
"cares about the project" - but not enough to be respectful to the people 
actually in charge of the project?  I know for me, if I were volunteering 
my time to run a project and had not had the time to do it, the last 
thing that would motivate me to respond would be someone referring to me 
as the "ill head", or telling me to pull my thumb out of my ass and DO 
SOMETHING.

I'd be much more inclined to tell them to take a long walk off a short 
pier (and that would have been ME being polite about it).

>> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
>> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
>> this code reviewed and made available?".
> 
> My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have
> the code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it
> proprietary or whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

Yes, that's pretty much where I was as well in my understanding - that 
there were legal issues.  The code was (to my knowledge, based on public 
info) turned over, but that it needed a scrub before it could be made 
public.

Since there are legal issues involved, a lawyer would probably need to be 
involved at some point.

>> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're
>> being a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult
>> enough to own the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a
>> window.
> 
> Regardless of his level of impatience or tact, I would respectfully
> submit that the issues raised still stand on their own, and so perhaps
> we can pretend that Princess Penelope Petunia batted her eyelashes and
> curtsied while demurely asking that a teensy favor of hers be granted.

No, he needs to understand that being rude is not acceptable.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about the issues he raises.  Just that he 
needs to acknowledge his lack of tact.

> Also, in all fairness, he / we were promised an answer/response, and jr
> seems to be abiding by the Russian proverb - an admonition to "trust,
> but verify."

I await those answers as well.  Patiently.  Life right now is not exactly 
straightforward for a lot of people, and we don't know if Chris or others 
whom we're waiting on have had other priorities take over.

> The world is full of plenty of dicks who don't want to answer questions
> "because of the tone that they were asked in", even when it's in every
> way proper to hold them accountable.  Damned citizen taxpayers being
> jerks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IeGqIIHj4
> 
> So - let's not be THAT way either.

Accountability in open development projects is a bit different than in 
the business world.  I'm sure, though, that you're aware of that.

> 
> Now, ruffled feathers or not, there are still some of us sitting out
> here in the Peanut Gallery who are interested in answers, information,
> history, opinions, and other levels and forms of discussion on the
> topics raised about POV-Ray, and Moray.
> 
> Please, and a preemptive Thank You.

As I said, I'm interested as well in the answers to these questions.  
Were I able to help out, I'd be asking similar questions, but I know what 
my life is like, and I try not to presume about what others' lives entail 
in order to fulfill my needs.

It seems that these questions could all be asked with a modicum of 
respect, and that's all I'm suggesting here.  It's possible to ask hard 
questions without being an ass about it.



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:39:05 -0400, jr wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
>> ...
>> > there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you
>> > think I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?
>>
>> The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and
>> essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get
>> some work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming
>> across).
> 
> stagnation, yes, and not confined to development.  and yes, I aired my
> "perceived grievances".

You engaged in personal attacks against the leaders of the project.  It 
was unnecessary.

>> ...
>> >> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
>> >> > looms)
>> >>
>> >> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
>> >> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize
>> >> people who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something
>> >> that I'm not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
>> >
>> > eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
>> > github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look
>> > at the .. task at hand.
>>
>> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
>> *can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
>> needs to be scrubbed.
> 
> _parts_ of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been
> worked on,
> and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code
> could not have been published.

Not knowing what the code looks like, I couldn't begin to guess how much 
of the code could be shared and how much couldn't.

Could you?

> and no, personally I could not contribute to a C++ code base, however,
> I, as I'm sure are others, would be prepared to contribute via some type
> of subscription model, to fund the odd "journey man", for instance.

So maybe suggest that rather than assuming that people are acting 
maliciously in order to deprive you of access to software you enjoy using.

>> > surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could
>> > have sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the
>> > 3.8.0 alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need
>> > writing ~150 words?)
>>
>> You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply
>> aren't true.
> 
> I assume that, even in a small team of volunteers (and even if all of
> those volunteers were single parents), within a time frame of a good two
> years, _someone_ will find five minutes to  write a piece, and a further
> five minutes to update the website, to "announce" the 3.8.0 alpha(s). 
> are you telling me I'm (completely) wrong?

I'm telling you that you have no knowledge of what is going on in 
peoples' lives.  Being a dick in your inquiries is not exactly going to 
encourage people to give you the answers you want.

Or even, really, to answer you at all.

Ever hear the phrase "you attract more bees with honey than vinegar"?  
That applies.

"Hey, Chris, and POV-Team - I'm interested in knowing what's going on 
with both POV-Ray and Moray.  I'd like to contribute in some way, but am 
not sure how I can.  Can you suggest ways I can help, or things I might 
do to help revive the project?"

Much better than a laundry list of grievances and complaints, telling 
people to "pull their thumbs out of their ..." and describing the project 
in the way in which you did.

>> That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's
>> whining,
>> plain and simple.
> 
> rant, whining, same thing.  as advertised.  I've addressed "Moray"
> above, and see nothing wrong with .. venting frustration when "things
> get kicked in the long grass" for years on end.

Then you fail to understand even the most basic human interaction if you 
expected anything more than a "fine, screw you" response.

>> I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a
>> really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years
>> back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own
>> limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities
>> in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here
>> stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this
>> software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to
>> help.
> 
> so where then is the wiki or wherever page which lists the things "to
> do"? where is the out-reach to community asking for specific help on
> this or that? in order to offer help, it would help (pun intended) to
> know of specific outstanding tasks/issues.  can you even point to any ng
> post in the last, uh, four years or so, where you, or a member of the
> mysterious TAG, has asked for help with anything?

Maybe ask the project leadership that question, respectfully.

I'm not part of the "mysterious TAG" - and am not in a position to ask 
for help with anything on behalf of the project.  I'm another end user, 
just like you.  I just happened to help out briefly with getting the Wiki 
set up.

You again are attributing a role to me which I do not hold, and never 
have held.

Try just asking the project leadership how you can help.  Politely, 
stating what you think you might be able to help with (your rant has some 
good suggestions in it where maybe you COULD help).

>> You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick
>> out a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then
>> instead of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in
>> which you might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping
>> promote it. Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that
>> are broken don't remain so.
> 
> just seeing that news-which-isn't section of the website suggests that
> dead links, for example, if reported, would be addressed with the same
> .. alacrity? (if no one in the whole POV-Ray "team" found time in the
> last two years to write a 3.8.0 item, what chance they'd find time
> updating the links section?)

Well, you certainly could ask how you can help with actually updating the 
links.  But you're so keen to see problems, you're not apparently willing 
to look for ways in which you could be part of the solution.  I'm not 
about to do your thinking for you.

> as for the "head is ill" analogy, I think that the talk posted by ingo
> made good points about how "maintainers" can create environments where
> cooperation is productive; part of it is communicating the "broad brush
> strokes", and I see no evidence of even that.
> 
> (and if I had the technical know-how to set up and maintain an IRC
> channel, for instance, don't you think I'd have one on the go already?)

It seems clear that you wouldn't even take the time to learn, given that 
you're not even willing to consider how you might help (the one question 
about how you could help notwithstanding).  You just want to complain.  
You raise some good questions, in very poor form.

>> But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless,
>> pointless, and downright rude.
> 
> not sure about "pointless", unless you're happy with the .. status quo,
> as to "completely useless", likely, that's the thing about "inertia". 
> and rudeness, well, my rant was written to provoke a (long overdue, imo)
> look at the "now" -- where does POV-Ray go from here.  so far I hear a
> lot of criticism in response to my critique, but not a single real
> answer.  (the whole "atmosphere" strikes me as one like a big family
> gathering, when a child asks "where's uncle X?" and every adult looks at
> one another, stricken faces, and then one will give an "answer" that
> isn't any)

Not happy with the status quo; not in a position to demand that others do 
something, and not in a position to pitch in myself.

If you want answers, try being polite to the people you want answers 
from.  *Genuinely* polite.  Considerate.  Thoughtful.

And consider that other people are dealing with things in their lives 
that you have no idea about, nor are you entitled to know about, so if 
you don't get an answer, don't assume malice, assume it's because people 
genuinely have busy lives.


-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

ok so it seems I'm not quick enough for some. This is because I was
taking the time to communicate with enough people to be sure that I
could present a clear set of facts that correctly reflect the current
situation, as giving out wrong information is worse than saying nothing
at all.

whatever. I'll keep this short and to the point.

internal discussions showed that we don't currently have the manpower to
release 3.8 in a form that meets our past standards for stability and
backwards compatibility. I also made the decision that I would step back
from managing releases and ask someone else to handle that. I see my
role, after 25 years of doing this, as more administrative with the
following caveat:

I have been involved with POV since version 1 and worked with most of
the original authors - people who I have great respect for and who
surpass me in many respects. Collectively there have been tens of
thousands of hours put into this project and it has achieved a
reputation for quality and stability. I will NOT stand by and allow a
3.x release out that does not meet that same standard and if I do so I
will be letting them all down. This is a responsibility I take seriously
and I will not relent.

As long as 3.7 continues to operate as designed on modern operating
systems and CPU's it's not broken and there is no pressing need to
replace it. Yes I'd like to see 3.8 out. Yes we need help to do so. I
had decided to move development discussions to one of these groups so it
is in public and ask for assistance from users; in particular as no-one
in the current team is able to take on the job of managing the release I
was going to ask for volunteers from here.

I was prepared to ignore the negative and insulting tone of many posts
in this thread for the benefit of the project but this is enough, as it
has reminded me of one of the reasons I dislike managing open-source
projects: settling the squabbles and disagreements between contributors.
No matter whose side I take and for whatever reason someone will be
unhappy and I'll be the 'bad guy'. Looking at what I see expressed here
just reminds me I'm in for a heap more of this shit and at almost 60
years old I've had enough.

*IF* I find someone who is qualified to lead the release I'll happily
hand that of to them (and anyone reading this who thinks they are and
who know me well enough to know I'd consider them is invited to email -
you don't need to be a C++ developer).

As for the website: again I was going to post a longer explanation but
I'll simply say the box it's running on is 15 years old, on its last
legs, difficult to manage/upgrade as it's in the US and I'm not and no
longer has a working IPKVM, and does not run a CMS to speak of. I'm
loath to touch it in any meaningful way until I have it replaced. I have
recently spent several thousand dollars bringing fiber into my office
and purchasing some proper server hardware to serve as a complete
replacement and at THAT point with a real CMS and up-to-date software I
would be asking for assistance in managing the content, but not before.

And before anyone asks "why not a VM in the cloud", (a) I'm old-school
and prefer real hardware, and (b) you guys wanted to keep the NNTP
server and there's no way that software (which was built for FreeBSD v4)
will run on anything modern. I will have to make special arrangements to
keep it working on a separate machine.

Finally, about Moray: some points are valid. I wish I'd gotten it out
before now. However the source still needs auditing. Over the years I'd
had volunteers work on it (then give up) and even hired a dev once (who
then ghosted me). It's working OK I think and I was in communication
with Lutz as recently as a few months ago about finishing off
integration (we both decided we don't do enough C++ anymore to handle it
ourselves, though it's likely I could if I really wanted to). FWIW in
case anyone cares Lutz has recently added STL import/export.

I was also considering handing the source off to a volunteer to audit,
sort out some library issues, and generally polish it if they were
willing: if a reader considers they are qualified and will actually
FINISH the job please contact me and we'll talk about it. But I want to
make one thing clear to those who seem to think that I somehow 'owe' the
community a Moray release. Moray was NOT 'given' to the POV-Ray project.
I purchased it from the author. It's my property and while I have stated
I will release it under an open-source license up and until the time I
do I would ask you treat this matter with the same respect as you would
have treated it if it were still shareware owned by Lutz - you wouldn't
write him and bitch about him not releasing the source or making it
free, so don't do it to me.

Post a reply to this message

On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.

And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source 
software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute. 
It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects 
have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

Thorsten

Post a reply to this message

On 22.07.2020 01:39, jr wrote:
>> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
>> *can't*  be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
>> needs to be scrubbed.
 >
> _parts_  of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been worked on,
> and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code could not
> have been published.

And that specification comes out of thin air? And the splitting of the 
code between proprietary and available for publication comes out of thin 
air, too? - The answer is simple: No and no.

Post a reply to this message

On 7/22/20 9:07 AM, Thorsten wrote:
> On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source 
> software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute. 
> It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects 
> have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

yup

Post a reply to this message

On 22.07.2020 00:38, Bald Eagle wrote:
> My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have the
> code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it proprietary or
> whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

In order to even get it to compile again, Lutz had to do the conversion 
to Visual C(++) 2010. Various people have had access to the code over 
time because they volunteered to take a look or were/are part of the 
POV-Team. This includes me (I actually still have access because I have 
a local copy and always had access to the perforce server we used before 
github).

The code is in a fairly good state, but it is written for a really not 
very standard-compliant old Visual C, using MFC, and to make matters 
worse using really "old" ways of doing things in the Windows GUI world. 
What many, many users do not realise is how bad the Win32 GUI 
programming was actually broken by Microsoft, and how many toolkits, 
libraries, and abstraction one had to throw over it to make a program 
like Moray possible.

So as long as Moray was commercial, you could just buy a license to such 
code, in particular the whole toolbar in Moray, integrate and modify 
said code under that license, and distribute it in binary form. So far, 
so good. But it does not get you anywhere if you have to convert 
commercial code to open source. Then you actually, for the sake of 
copyright law (and common sense), have to check where that code went and 
if you didn't move things here or there. Then you have to take it out, 
and do a clean room rewrite, or actually replace it with something current.

Want an estimate? - It would take 4-5 month full-time (but I am not 
offering full-time), 40h/week and my going rate is 120 Euro/hour (plus 
VAT) for freelance work*.

Thorsten


* After all taxes, rent, insurance, etc about 40% of that get into one's 
pocket in Germany, btw.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 15:07:38 +0200, Thorsten wrote:

> On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source
> software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute.
> It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects
> have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

Yup, and that sense of "entitlement" (which is entirely undeserved) that 
some users have that the project managers/developers *owe* the users 
anything.

People who work on code for free do it because it gives them joy and is 
fun.  Dealing with a userbase of complainers and whiners (and I'm not 
meaning to say the entire userbase of POV-Ray is like this; all it takes 
is a few entitled loudmouthed jerks to ruin it for everyone; I know users 
who have left because of a few toxic people in the community) isn't fun.  
As we've seen from Chris' reply, that is just shitty to deal with, and 
not fun.  Why would *anyone* opt to put up with that kind of bullshit if 
they had the choice?

In a nutshell, we (the users) are owed exactly *nothing* from Chris or 
the development team.  He has managed this project for 25 years (by his 
own reckoning; I'd have said closer to 30 by my own), and *we* owe *him* 
some gratitude for what he has done.

It's rare for *anyone* to stick with a single development project for 
that long, much less retain a passion for it.

The same goes for Moray (which I see he explained in very clear terms).  
He *purchased* the codebase from Lutz.  He owns it, and it's his to do 
with as he pleases.

As for me:  I've offered to step up and help out with content work when 
he gets the CMS ready to go.  I can't (and won't) do it alone - my time 
is *extremely limited*.  I'll start a separate discussion nearer the time 
Chris and I work out that that transition can happen, and I'll be 
expecting to have some folks from the community step up to help out.  If 
that doesn't happen, the job will take longer or it simply won't get 
done. Anyone who wants to bitch at me for the speed with which it isn't 
happening will be welcome to get your hands dirty and dig in and help - 
otherwise, I'll be telling you in no uncertain terms where you can shove 
your complaints.  To paraphrase Chris, I'm nearly 50 years old myself, 
and I don't have time or energy for dealing with the whining self-
entitled jerks who think that they are owed *anything* by the people 
doing the actual work. You want the project to have a future?  Pitch in 
and help out.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> ok so it seems I'm not quick enough for some. This is because I was
> taking the time to communicate with enough people to be sure that I
> could present a clear set of facts that correctly reflect the current
> situation, as giving out wrong information is worse than saying nothing
> at all.

the "some" refers to me, I take it.  (I do prefer directness, always.  :-))

well I waited a full working week plus one day for you to follow up.  just a
one-line reminder (like you wrote on the 12th) would have made a difference.

(and the irony is, had no one replied to my post to TdG (21st), the thread would
have stopped there and then.  with "misgivings", for sure, but ended)

> whatever. I'll keep this short and to the point.
> ...
> I was prepared to ignore the negative and insulting tone of many posts
> in this thread for the benefit of the project but this is enough, as it
> has reminded me of one of the reasons I dislike managing open-source
> projects: settling the squabbles and disagreements between contributors.
> No matter whose side I take and for whatever reason someone will be
> unhappy and I'll be the 'bad guy'.  ...

that goes with the territory though, the person "wearing the hat" takes the
flak.  (but I can see that 25 years take their toll)

> ...
> As for the website: again I was going to post a longer explanation but
> I'll simply say the box it's running on is 15 years old, on its last
> legs, difficult to manage/upgrade as it's in the US and I'm not and no
> longer has a working IPKVM, and does not run a CMS to speak of. I'm
> loath to touch it in any meaningful way until I have it replaced.  ...

good to know, and does explain the not-news section and more.

> ...
> Finally, about Moray: some points are valid. I wish I'd gotten it out
> before now. However the source still needs auditing. Over the years I'd
> had volunteers work on it (then give up) and even hired a dev once (who
> then ghosted me). It's working OK I think and I was in communication
> with Lutz as recently as a few months ago about finishing off
> integration (we both decided we don't do enough C++ anymore to handle it
> ourselves, though it's likely I could if I really wanted to). FWIW in
> case anyone cares Lutz has recently added STL import/export.
>
> I was also considering handing the source off to a volunteer to audit,
> sort out some library issues, and generally polish it if they were
> willing: if a reader considers they are qualified and will actually
> FINISH the job please contact me and we'll talk about it.

seems a shame that the conversion of Moray[*] has turned into a "never-ending
story".

[*] have never used it, but, based on others's opinions, had hopes to see a
modeller for GNU/Linux which works hand-in-glove with POV-Ray.

> But I want to
> make one thing clear to those who seem to think that I somehow 'owe' the
> community a Moray release. Moray was NOT 'given' to the POV-Ray project.
> I purchased it from the author. It's my property and while I have stated
> I will release it under an open-source license up and until the time I
> do I would ask you treat this matter with the same respect as you would
> have treated it if it were still shareware owned by Lutz - you wouldn't
> write him and bitch about him not releasing the source or making it
> free, so don't do it to me.

I can only speak for myself, but paying for a tool one wants to use is
expected/normal.

(and that extends, of course.  I remember mention of willingness to help with
POV-Ray[*] by taking out subscription and or purchasing content, in previous
threads in the newsgroups, but you probably did not read those.
[*] and yes, not being able to offer worthwhile _practical_ help and being
reduced to offering money does .. not feel very good)

but anyway, thank you for providing a little insight wrt near future.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:39:05 -0400, jr wrote:
>
> > Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
> >> ...

agreeing, as you do, with GBS, I've taken the liberty to address just a couple
of points.

>>> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
>>> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.
....
>>
>> and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the
>> news server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main
>> website.  so why then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the
>> news section so .. not news?
> I don't have admin privileges for the news server or the wiki (any
> more).  ...

(and a couple of posts later)
> ...  I'm another end user, just like you.  ...

so my understanding of NNTP is that once a post has "gone through", it will
remain on that server indefinitely (one can set a "destroy-by" date, but don't
think it's honoured by the servers).  therefore, without admin privileges (or an
indebted djinn) you, as "another end user", ought not to have been able to
withdraw your post (with haste :-)).  "end user"s like me have to, and do, stand
by our posts, the published record; handy that _you_ are able to .. alter the
record, the reality if you will.

you also wrote, replying to BE: "I am a boss/supervisor, and I can tell you,
that is not a great way to motivate people if you want them to be loyal to you."

my, my.  you like people's loyalty to you?  I suggest the word you're looking
for is "fealty".

personally, I have never worked for "the man", the organisations/companies paid
my bread, and that's where my loyalties lay.

fwiw, I do not think there's much mileage in a reply.  (particularly since you
cannot, apparently, think of new swear words)


no regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On 22.07.2020 18:28, jr wrote:
> so my understanding of NNTP is that once a post has "gone through", it will
> remain on that server indefinitely

No, NNTP explicitly permits to cancel messages. While GUI clients limit 
this ability somewhat for the "simple" user, there is no check as long 
as the sender address matches. So you can actually cancel any message.

Thorsten

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 12:28:31 -0400, jr wrote:

> hi,
> 
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:39:05 -0400, jr wrote:
>>
>> > Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
>> >> ...
> 
> agreeing, as you do, with GBS, I've taken the liberty to address just a
> couple of points.
> 
>>>> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
>>>> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.
> ....
>>>
>>> and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the
>>> news server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main
>>> website.  so why then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the
>>> news section so .. not news?
>> I don't have admin privileges for the news server or the wiki (any
>> more).  ...
> 
> (and a couple of posts later)
>> ...  I'm another end user, just like you.  ...
> 
> so my understanding of NNTP is that once a post has "gone through", it
> will remain on that server indefinitely (one can set a "destroy-by"
> date, but don't think it's honoured by the servers).  therefore, without
> admin privileges (or an indebted djinn) you, as "another end user",
> ought not to have been able to withdraw your post (with haste :-)). 
> "end user"s like me have to, and do, stand by our posts, the published
> record; handy that _you_ are able to .. alter the record, the reality if
> you will.

Your understanding of NNTP is incorrect.  No admin privileges are needed 
to cancel your own posts or supersede them.  It's a common thing to do in 
the USENET world.

> you also wrote, replying to BE: "I am a boss/supervisor, and I can tell
> you, that is not a great way to motivate people if you want them to be
> loyal to you."
> 
> my, my.  you like people's loyalty to you?  I suggest the word you're
> looking for is "fealty".

Let me put it this way:  You don't know what the fuck you're talking 
about, and I don't owe you *any* explanation.

> personally, I have never worked for "the man", the
> organisations/companies paid my bread, and that's where my loyalties
> lay.
> 
> fwiw, I do not think there's much mileage in a reply.  (particularly
> since you cannot, apparently, think of new swear words)

Oh, damn, he doesn't like the swear words I use to express my 
displeasure.  What ever shall I do?

It's people like you who suck the joy out of volunteering to do the kind 
of work that Chris and TAG do.  You have an over-inflated sense of 
entitlement to things you have exactly zero entitlement to.

Good bye.

*plonk*

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message