On 12/12/2015 04:51 AM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> Skip Fallout 3 and play Fallout: New Vegas instead. Much better.

Well, maybe you're right. But given that I've already paid...

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On 11/12/2015 10:36 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:44:28 +0000, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
>> Does anybody here know anything about the game?
>
> I played it, quite enjoyed playing it - but it's been years since I
> played it. :)

Thanks for the tip. ;-)

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On 11/12/2015 09:33 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Apparently when you target using V.A.T.S., it actually gives you a
> damage amount and *hit probability* for each potential target. Somehow I
> missed that information. So you can auto-target something, but there's
> no guarantee at all that you will actually *hit* anything. Which makes
> me wonder why you'd even bother? It seems like a complete waste of
> time... Shooting normally also results in most shots missing, due to the
> extreme bullet spread.

Apparently you can also queue up more than one shot. I didn't realise that.

Of course, it has the same problem that Transistor does, in that it 
tells you the hit probabilities *assuming nothing changes*. Then when 
stuff changes (e.g., the target ducks), you hit air. Thanks for that. :-P

Still, I discovered that if you cheerfully ignore the current quest and 
just wonder around at random, there are places you can go where you can 
kill raiders and steal their stuff, then laboriously trek home to sell 
it all. At one point, I managed to accumulate almost 500 caps. And then 
I repaired the sniper rifle... which added about 3 damage, but used up 
my entire income. So now I'm broke again. *sigh*

Also, the guy in charge of the water system wants me to find "scrap 
metal" for him. But I'm not sure exactly what that means... I would have 
thought it just means items made of metal. But apparently not.

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On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 12:31:30 +0000, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> On 11/12/2015 10:36 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:44:28 +0000, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>
>>> Does anybody here know anything about the game?
>>
>> I played it, quite enjoyed playing it - but it's been years since I
>> played it. :)
> 
> Thanks for the tip. ;-)

You're welcome. :)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On 12/13/2015 7:35 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 11/12/2015 09:33 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> Apparently when you target using V.A.T.S., it actually gives you a
>> damage amount and *hit probability* for each potential target. Somehow I
>> missed that information. So you can auto-target something, but there's
>> no guarantee at all that you will actually *hit* anything. Which makes
>> me wonder why you'd even bother? It seems like a complete waste of
>> time... Shooting normally also results in most shots missing, due to the
>> extreme bullet spread.
>
> Apparently you can also queue up more than one shot. I didn't realise that.
>
> Of course, it has the same problem that Transistor does, in that it
> tells you the hit probabilities *assuming nothing changes*. Then when
> stuff changes (e.g., the target ducks), you hit air. Thanks for that. :-P
>
> Still, I discovered that if you cheerfully ignore the current quest and
> just wonder around at random, there are places you can go where you can
> kill raiders and steal their stuff, then laboriously trek home to sell
> it all. At one point, I managed to accumulate almost 500 caps. And then
> I repaired the sniper rifle... which added about 3 damage, but used up
> my entire income. So now I'm broke again. *sigh*
>
> Also, the guy in charge of the water system wants me to find "scrap
> metal" for him. But I'm not sure exactly what that means... I would have
> thought it just means items made of metal. But apparently not.

I think you have to turn items you collect into scrap metal using the 
crafting system. I don't recall exactly.


Mike

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On 14/12/2015 03:16 AM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> On 12/13/2015 7:35 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> Also, the guy in charge of the water system wants me to find "scrap
>> metal" for him. But I'm not sure exactly what that means... I would have
>> thought it just means items made of metal. But apparently not.
>
> I think you have to turn items you collect into scrap metal using the
> crafting system. I don't recall exactly.

I've since discovered that in a handful of locations you can find an 
item literally described as "scrap metal". Which apparently trades for 
about 10 caps. So...

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> So I managed to leave Vault 101.

You can get out without violence, you can just leg it around the guards.

> Next I'm supposed to pick the lock to open the door. The game marked the
> lock as "very easy" (not just easy, but *very* easy), and yet I failed
> miserably, not even coming close to unlocking it.

The lockpicking minigame isn't that hard once you get the trick of it, and it's
invaluable for finding loot. You do need quite a lot of pins before you get good
at it tho :\

> I'm not actually sure what the point in Vault 101 existing is. I mean, I
> left the vault, and I'm presumably never going back there, so everything
> that just happened was basically a total waste of time.

The idea is that it's an in-universe character generator (the skill classroom
test etc), tutorial and story beginning all in one. And you're assuming you
never go back there ;-)

> But I had
> assumed that all living entities were hostile

Hostiles show red on your radar. All others show green.

> bomb
> and yet it was
> trivially easy. I don't know if there's a random component and I was
> just extremely lucky, or what.

IIRC the bomb requires your repair skill to be a certain level, which might not
immediately be the case depending on your initial skill choices in the vault.

> So I walked all the way back to Megaton. But apparently the game seems
> to think there definitely *is* food to be found, and won't let me abort
> the quest until I find it.

You since found fast travel ;) Don't forget it's an open world game. You don't
*need* to advance a quest, you can just go find some more. That particular quest
line isn't part of the main story, although Moira's tasks are quite good at
getting you around to interesting places.

> towards the river, and a large team of humans started shooting me. So I
> quickly crossed the river, and got shot at even more. There were only
> two enemies, but no matter how much I shot at them, they just wouldn't
> die. Eventually I exhausted all my health supplies and died.

Hmm, there are two super mutants on the west bank of the river around there I
think. They're pretty tough early in the game, especially when your accuracy
isn't yet high enough to hit them at range.

> So I tried going further north. But then some kid runs up to me and
> tells me how "fire ants" have taken over his town, and begs me to fix
> it.

Again, you can just ignore quests if you're not ready for them yet. There are
very few cases where you're required to do something immediately. IIRC the kid
just tells you to meet him somewhere, so you can go back whenever you're ready.

> First of all, it asserts that trying to evenly spread your upgrade
> points among all abilities is a doomed strategy, and you have to pick
> one or two and focus only on those.

Early on, good advice. However you can pretty much max out all skills by the
endgame so I wouldn't worry. A guns skill is very useful for a first
playthrough, as is repair, speech (so you can take the negotiation route where
possible and save ammo and karma). But there's no right way to play the game to
be honest.

> They urge you to use V.A.T.S. constantly, for everything. Clearly I'm
> using it wrong. So every time enemies are near, the game is constantly
> nudging you to turn on V.A.T.S... So I press V, and the game pauses and
> asks me what part of the target I want to hit. So I say, uh, head. And I
> press Accept. And the game unpauses, and nothing happens. So... what was
> the point of that, exactly?

As you subsequently found out, you can queue up as many shots as your AP
permits. Although the accuracy can be a bit of a crapshoot until you get your
guns skills up, VATS is still the best way to go for beginners because you take
almost no damage whilst in the mode. And the slo-mo kill replays look awesome.

> (Apparently ammo is extremely rare in this world.)

It's really not. You'll burn through it at the start of the game, but after 10
hours of looting ammo for guns you don't yet have, you'll end up with plenty.


I must have sunk more than 300 hours into Fallout 3 alone over the last 7 years,
it's a great game. As someone else said, try New Vegas too if you end up liking
it. The game mechanics in New Vegas are significantly improved (and there's a
hardcore mode where you have to regularly sleep, eat and drink, and ammo has
weight), and the story choices are much better too. I still prefer 3 for the
exploration/atmosphere though.

I shall be giving 4 a go next year I expect :D

Bill

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On 14/12/2015 03:16 AM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> > On 12/13/2015 7:35 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> >> Also, the guy in charge of the water system wants me to find "scrap
> >> metal" for him. But I'm not sure exactly what that means... I would have
> >> thought it just means items made of metal. But apparently not.
> >
> > I think you have to turn items you collect into scrap metal using the
> > crafting system. I don't recall exactly.
>
> I've since discovered that in a handful of locations you can find an
> item literally described as "scrap metal". Which apparently trades for
> about 10 caps. So...

It's quite common actually, you'll find it everywhere. It's useful for a couple
of repair quests, and some bloke in Megaton will give you a better price for it
because he can use it to maintain some equipment. I think you can only craft
with it in New Vegas...

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On 14/12/2015 09:28 AM, Bill Pragnell wrote:
> Orchid Win7 v1<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> So I managed to leave Vault 101.
>
> You can get out without violence, you can just leg it around the guards.

Can you really pick the lock and hack the computer terminal while two 
guys are physically beating you? I wouldn't expect that to work...

>> Next I'm supposed to pick the lock to open the door. The game marked the
>> lock as "very easy" (not just easy, but *very* easy), and yet I failed
>> miserably, not even coming close to unlocking it.
>
> The lockpicking minigame isn't that hard once you get the trick of it, and it's
> invaluable for finding loot. You do need quite a lot of pins before you get good
> at it tho :\

I found that when you press a way, regardless of the position of the 
pin, the same thing happens. And after a while, the pin breaks.

What I didn't realise is that you're supposed to *hold* the button! >_<

(FWIW, I had the same problem with Assassin's Creed 2. I literally got 
stuck for 20 minutes trying to figure out why the button press I'm being 
prompted with didn't do anything. It took that long to figure out you 
have to actually *hold* the button. Sheesh...)

>> I'm not actually sure what the point in Vault 101 existing is. I mean, I
>> left the vault, and I'm presumably never going back there, so everything
>> that just happened was basically a total waste of time.
>
> The idea is that it's an in-universe character generator (the skill classroom
> test etc), tutorial and story beginning all in one. And you're assuming you
> never go back there ;-)

The test was weird. Several questions have one obviously correct answer 
and several obviously incorrect ones. But a few of the questions only 
have incorrect answers. I had to admit, the final question made me 
chuckle though...

>> But I had
>> assumed that all living entities were hostile
>
> Hostiles show red on your radar. All others show green.

Yeah, I didn't know that. I just assumed that all living things want to 
kill me. Because that seems to be the case. Especially when I'm away 
from Megaton, I have a hard time trying to figure out whether distant 
entities are dangerous or not. Still, it seems *really* hard to avoid 
people.

>> bomb
>> and yet it was
>> trivially easy. I don't know if there's a random component and I was
>> just extremely lucky, or what.
>
> IIRC the bomb requires your repair skill to be a certain level, which might not
> immediately be the case depending on your initial skill choices in the vault.

Oh, I see.

Knowing now that 95% of the game is about repairing stuff, I wish I'd 
put 100% of my points into the repair skill. Again, this is what happens 
when they make you take irreversible decisions before you know what it 
affects! >_<

>> So I walked all the way back to Megaton. But apparently the game seems
>> to think there definitely *is* food to be found, and won't let me abort
>> the quest until I find it.
>
> You since found fast travel ;) Don't forget it's an open world game. You don't
> *need* to advance a quest, you can just go find some more. That particular quest
> line isn't part of the main story, although Moira's tasks are quite good at
> getting you around to interesting places.

Oh, really? I just turned up at Megaton, and she started handing me 
quests. I assumed that was the intended path forward...

>> towards the river, and a large team of humans started shooting me. So I
>> quickly crossed the river, and got shot at even more. There were only
>> two enemies, but no matter how much I shot at them, they just wouldn't
>> die. Eventually I exhausted all my health supplies and died.
>
> Hmm, there are two super mutants on the west bank of the river around there I
> think. They're pretty tough early in the game, especially when your accuracy
> isn't yet high enough to hit them at range.

...there's a way to increase accuracy? Because right now, even when I 
aim directly at somebody 6 feet away, the bullets fly in random 
directions, and even when they appear to hit, they do no detectable 
damage at all.

Then again, maybe the 10mm pistol isn't the thing. It's the only gun I 
can find any ammo for. (Well, except for the magical revolver that only 
fires 5 bullets, not 6.) I assume the Chinese Rifle does more damage, 
but it's permanently out of ammo.

>> So I tried going further north. But then some kid runs up to me and
>> tells me how "fire ants" have taken over his town, and begs me to fix
>> it.
>
> Again, you can just ignore quests if you're not ready for them yet. There are
> very few cases where you're required to do something immediately. IIRC the kid
> just tells you to meet him somewhere, so you can go back whenever you're ready.

Yeah, I discovered that actually, there's 3 molerats right outside 
Megaton, so you don't need to cross the river at all. ("Awww! The poor 
liddle molerats with their fwuffy noses!" Er, lady, are you *seeing* the 
same monsters I am?)

So that got that quest out of the way. But a few quests later and I need 
to get to the memorial. I took a really strange route to get there, and 
that damned kid *still* found me! Miles away from where he usually 
hijacks me. Apparently he's impossible to avoid. (I said people are hard 
to avoid...) So I just told him I'd do it, and then ignored him.

Actually, a while later, I did come back and do the quest. Approaching 
from the high ground seemed to make it possible to kill the ants with 
VATS. And then I went in a house, came out again, and told the kid his 
dad was dead. (No idea how my character found that out; I just noticed 
the quest marker had moved...)

That didn't end the quest though; now I'm supposed to eliminate the 
"source" of the ants. No idea how the **** that's supposed to work; I 
guess that's the challenge. To figure it out.

>> First of all, it asserts that trying to evenly spread your upgrade
>> points among all abilities is a doomed strategy, and you have to pick
>> one or two and focus only on those.
>
> Early on, good advice. However you can pretty much max out all skills by the
> endgame so I wouldn't worry.

Interesting. The guide claimed that it's physically impossible to max 
out all skills, and in fact insanely hard to even get *one* to maximum, 
so you should focus on only the most important ones.

> A guns skill is very useful for a first
> playthrough, as is repair, speech (so you can take the negotiation route where
> possible and save ammo and karma). But there's no right way to play the game to
> be honest.

But I bet there's plenty of *wrong* ways! ;-)

>> They urge you to use V.A.T.S. constantly, for everything. Clearly I'm
>> using it wrong. So every time enemies are near, the game is constantly
>> nudging you to turn on V.A.T.S... So I press V, and the game pauses and
>> asks me what part of the target I want to hit. So I say, uh, head. And I
>> press Accept. And the game unpauses, and nothing happens. So... what was
>> the point of that, exactly?
>
> As you subsequently found out, you can queue up as many shots as your AP
> permits. Although the accuracy can be a bit of a crapshoot until you get your
> guns skills up, VATS is still the best way to go for beginners because you take
> almost no damage whilst in the mode. And the slo-mo kill replays look awesome.

 From what I've seen, human enemies do little to no damage. The only 
reason they're dangerous is because it takes *so many* shots to hit 
them! By which time you're nearly dead.

I particularly enjoy the fact that VATS will tell you there's a 95% hit 
chance, when actually every single shot hits the invisible wall around 
the edge of whatever bit of scenery you're hiding behind. Thanks for that.

The slo-mo looks cool? It looks confusing as hell! I can't even tell 
what's happening. I queue up 2 shots, and I see an animation of my 
character firing 16 shoots. What am I watching? And why isn't he aiming 
where I said? And why are multiple shots hitting but no damage happened? 
I AM SO CONFUSED!

>> (Apparently ammo is extremely rare in this world.)
>
> It's really not. You'll burn through it at the start of the game, but after 10
> hours of looting ammo for guns you don't yet have, you'll end up with plenty.

Well... I've found an endless supply of lawnmower blades, pilot lights, 
medical tubing and crutches. You know, useless crap you don't do 
anything with. Ammo, however, is *never* to be found. You also can't buy 
it, for some reason. Although at this point, 95% of everything Moira has 
for sale is the stuff I just sold to her!

My current tactic is to travel to the nearby elementary school and 
collect as many burned books as I can carry, and then go back to Megaton 
and sell them. I get 0.6 caps per book. It's a very, *very* slow way to 
earn caps.

> I must have sunk more than 300 hours into Fallout 3 alone over the last 7 years,
> it's a great game. As someone else said, try New Vegas too if you end up liking
> it. The game mechanics in New Vegas are significantly improved (and there's a
> hardcore mode where you have to regularly sleep, eat and drink, and ammo has
> weight), and the story choices are much better too. I still prefer 3 for the
> exploration/atmosphere though.

I still end up sleeping a lot, mainly to avoid being outside at night. 
(And to work around the store opening hours.) Oh, and free heals.

> I shall be giving 4 a go next year I expect :D

Oh, when the price comes down? ;-) Why do you think I started with 3?

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> > You can get out without violence, you can just leg it around the guards.
>
> Can you really pick the lock and hack the computer terminal while two
> guys are physically beating you? I wouldn't expect that to work...

Hmm, been a while but I think if you get there in good time you can get out
before they arrive. I might be wrong!

> > The idea is that it's an in-universe character generator (the skill classroom
> > test etc), tutorial and story beginning all in one. And you're assuming you
> > never go back there ;-)
>
> The test was weird. Several questions have one obviously correct answer
> and several obviously incorrect ones. But a few of the questions only
> have incorrect answers. I had to admit, the final question made me
> chuckle though...

Yeah, there's no wrong answer, it's just used very roughly to put some character
stats together in a humourous way. And then it asks you what you want to change
anyway so it's not important if you answer "wrongly"!

> > Hostiles show red on your radar. All others show green.
>
> Yeah, I didn't know that. I just assumed that all living things want to
> kill me. Because that seems to be the case. Especially when I'm away
> from Megaton, I have a hard time trying to figure out whether distant
> entities are dangerous or not. Still, it seems *really* hard to avoid
> people.

You want to find people! Talk to the friendlies, find our their stories, see if
they've got quests for you. Quests mean rewards! Even if you just find raiders,
you can always murderize them for their armour and ammo. If you're feeling mean,
you can do that to the friendlies too (although your karma will take a hit).

> Knowing now that 95% of the game is about repairing stuff, I wish I'd
> put 100% of my points into the repair skill. Again, this is what happens
> when they make you take irreversible decisions before you know what it
> affects! >_<

You want a balance. Repair is good for fixing up your weapons, or raising the
value of stuff before selling it. But then you need guns to improve accuracy, or
strength to carry more stuff, etc.

> > *need* to advance a quest, you can just go find some more. That particular quest
> > line isn't part of the main story, although Moira's tasks are quite good at
> > getting you around to interesting places.
>
> Oh, really? I just turned up at Megaton, and she started handing me
> quests. I assumed that was the intended path forward...

It's one of them :) I think for the main story you need to speak to the bar
owner.

> ...there's a way to increase accuracy? Because right now, even when I
> aim directly at somebody 6 feet away, the bullets fly in random
> directions, and even when they appear to hit, they do no detectable
> damage at all.

If you're using the 10mm it's pretty weak against humans or mutants. But yes,
the guns skill should improve accuracy, and increasing the weapon's condition
will help too.

> I assume the Chinese Rifle does more damage,
> but it's permanently out of ammo.

The chinese assault rifle? It takes 5.56 if I remember. I didn't find one of
those until much later in the game! Then at higher levels every other mutant
carries one and you end up with dozens of them. I think it's widely agreed that
the best gun in the game is the unique Lincoln's Repeater, found in one of the
museums on the mall. It takes .44 magnum ammo, and always shoots perfectly
straight 100% of the time :D

> So that got that quest out of the way. But a few quests later and I need
> to get to the memorial. I took a really strange route to get there, and
> that damned kid *still* found me! Miles away from where he usually
> hijacks me. Apparently he's impossible to avoid. (I said people are hard
> to avoid...) So I just told him I'd do it, and then ignored him.

Yeah he's scripted to find you quite early on I think. Most quest givers tend to
stay in their own areas or routines.

> Actually, a while later, I did come back and do the quest. Approaching
> from the high ground seemed to make it possible to kill the ants with
> VATS.

Hunting rifle ftw. Headshots are good. If you hit their antennae they frenzy and
attack each other.

> That didn't end the quest though; now I'm supposed to eliminate the
> "source" of the ants. No idea how the **** that's supposed to work; I
> guess that's the challenge. To figure it out.

Yep!

> Interesting. The guide claimed that it's physically impossible to max
> out all skills, and in fact insanely hard to even get *one* to maximum,
> so you should focus on only the most important ones.

Well, you need to be careful with the levelling. There's a perk offered quite
early on which gives you extra skill points per level, and another one that
gives you extra skill points per skill book read. Also, avoid perks that skip
levels. And if you're playing with the Broken Steel add-on, you get an extra 15
levels. I'm not sure if I maxed them all out, but definitely more than half of
them.

> I particularly enjoy the fact that VATS will tell you there's a 95% hit
> chance, when actually every single shot hits the invisible wall around
> the edge of whatever bit of scenery you're hiding behind. Thanks for that.

Yes, that can happen. Best to VATS them in the face.

> The slo-mo looks cool? It looks confusing as hell! I can't even tell
> what's happening. I queue up 2 shots, and I see an animation of my
> character firing 16 shoots. What am I watching? And why isn't he aiming
> where I said? And why are multiple shots hitting but no damage happened?
> I AM SO CONFUSED!

If you kill them in VATS, you get a random cinematic slo-mo kill replay.
Sometimes the camera follows the bullet.

> Well... I've found an endless supply of lawnmower blades, pilot lights,
> medical tubing and crutches. You know, useless crap you don't do
> anything with. Ammo, however, is *never* to be found. You also can't buy
> it, for some reason. Although at this point, 95% of everything Moira has
> for sale is the stuff I just sold to her!

Aha! Lawnmower blades and pilot lights can be used to make Shishkebabs (flaming
vibro-swords), and crutches can be used to make Railway Rifles. Once you find
the schematics, that is... :)

> My current tactic is to travel to the nearby elementary school and
> collect as many burned books as I can carry, and then go back to Megaton
> and sell them. I get 0.6 caps per book. It's a very, *very* slow way to
> earn caps.

You should stick to higher value-to-weight ratios really. But earning caps is
quite slow at the very start. You'll be rolling in it before long, believe me.
The problem you end up with is that none of the traders can afford to buy all
your swag...

> I still end up sleeping a lot, mainly to avoid being outside at night.
> (And to work around the store opening hours.) Oh, and free heals.

And extra XP. Oh, you mentioned that Moira ends up with all your crap -
merchants inventories cycle after 3 in-game days or so I think. This also
replenishes their caps.

> > I shall be giving 4 a go next year I expect :D
>
> Oh, when the price comes down? ;-) Why do you think I started with 3?

I'm not that concerned about the price, 40 quid is good value for the time I'll
spend on it. I will however also have to buy a system to play it on... :/

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