Just saw a post on the mailing list that official Windows and Linux 
versions of Blender are now available on Steam.  The project runner says 
that an OSX version is also coming.

And the price is right, too - Free. :)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

Am 25.04.2015 um 21:21 schrieb Jim Henderson:
> Just saw a post on the mailing list that official Windows and Linux
> versions of Blender are now available on Steam.  The project runner says
> that an OSX version is also coming.
>
> And the price is right, too - Free. :)

Fun fact: It's also available on non-Steam, for the same price ;)

Post a reply to this message

On 25/04/2015 20:21, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Just saw a post on the mailing list that official Windows and Linux
> versions of Blender are now available on Steam.  The project runner says
> that an OSX version is also coming.
>

What is the advantage of it being on Steam?

> And the price is right, too - Free. :)

>Cheap, at half the price. ;-)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 4/25/2015 1:34 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 25/04/2015 20:21, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Just saw a post on the mailing list that official Windows and Linux
>> versions of Blender are now available on Steam.  The project runner says
>> that an OSX version is also coming.
>>
>
> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?
>
The one I can think of - when you need to update, it will update for 
you. Where as, most stuff won't do that, and all of it that does either 
only does it when you run the application, or requires some extra 
process in the background. To me, having a process I already run, for 
games, update my software, would be really nice, frankly.


-- 
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any 
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get 
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."

Post a reply to this message

On 25/04/2015 23:37, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 4/25/2015 1:34 PM, Stephen wrote:

>>>
>>
>> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?
>>
> The one I can think of - when you need to update,

Aye, there's the rub.
What does it do if you want to keep the version you have?

> it will update for
> you. Where as, most stuff won't do that, and all of it that does either
> only does it when you run the application, or requires some extra
> process in the background.

May I mention M$ update and your love for that American institution. :-P

<Ducks and runs>

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 21:46:16 +0200, clipka wrote:

> Am 25.04.2015 um 21:21 schrieb Jim Henderson:
>> Just saw a post on the mailing list that official Windows and Linux
>> versions of Blender are now available on Steam.  The project runner
>> says that an OSX version is also coming.
>>
>> And the price is right, too - Free. :)
> 
> Fun fact: It's also available on non-Steam, for the same price ;)

Yep - but on Steam, it does make it easier to install and manage 
updates. :)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 21:34:45 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?

Exposure (they've had lots of exposure as a result), and for users, ease 
of managing updates.

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 23:54:40 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 25/04/2015 23:37, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> On 4/25/2015 1:34 PM, Stephen wrote:
> 
> 
>>>>
>>> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?
>>>
>> The one I can think of - when you need to update,
> 
> Aye, there's the rub.
> What does it do if you want to keep the version you have?

You can disable automatic updates on a per-application basis.

:)

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

I noticed some while back that CryEngine is available on Steam.

NOT for free, mind you. It was something like $20/month I think. But 
when you consider how many million USD you'd have to cough up to license 
that thing as an independent developer, $20 is damned cheap.

That's $20/month to use the development tools and run the thing. Not at 
all sure what happens when you actually want to *release* something 
that's powered by CryEngine...

Post a reply to this message

On 26/04/2015 01:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 21:34:45 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?
>
> Exposure (they've had lots of exposure as a result), and for users, ease
> of managing updates.
>

Exposure, I can understand, DRM as well. But managing updates sounds 
like a solution looking for a reason.
I despair at times.



-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 26 Apr 2015 09:42:15 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 26/04/2015 01:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 21:34:45 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?
>>
>> Exposure (they've had lots of exposure as a result), and for users,
>> ease of managing updates.
>>
>>
> Exposure, I can understand, DRM as well. But managing updates sounds
> like a solution looking for a reason.
> I despair at times.

DRM?  It's free open-source software, so no, no DRM.

Managing updates is serious business. :)

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 26 Apr 2015 09:38:29 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> I noticed some while back that CryEngine is available on Steam.
> 
> NOT for free, mind you. It was something like $20/month I think. But
> when you consider how many million USD you'd have to cough up to license
> that thing as an independent developer, $20 is damned cheap.

Generally $0 *million* for licensing stuff like this.  Licensing for 
stuff like this tends to run in the thousands, not the millions.

> That's $20/month to use the development tools and run the thing. Not at
> all sure what happens when you actually want to *release* something
> that's powered by CryEngine...

I imagine that's covered in the license agreement, and it's probably 
pretty reasonable.

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 26-4-2015 10:42, Stephen wrote:
> On 26/04/2015 01:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 21:34:45 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?
>>
>> Exposure (they've had lots of exposure as a result), and for users, ease
>> of managing updates.
>>
>
> Exposure, I can understand, DRM as well. But managing updates sounds
> like a solution looking for a reason.
> I despair at times.

Me too. What's so /difficult/ about updates that they need to be /managed/?


-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 26/04/2015 10:07, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Apr 2015 09:42:15 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 26/04/2015 01:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 21:34:45 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?
>>>
>>> Exposure (they've had lots of exposure as a result), and for users,
>>> ease of managing updates.
>>>
>>>
>> Exposure, I can understand, DRM as well. But managing updates sounds
>> like a solution looking for a reason.
>> I despair at times.
>
> DRM?  It's free open-source software, so no, no DRM.
>

I was thinking about the s/ware being played/used.
And Mr Google mentioned that was a reason for developing it.

> Managing updates is serious business. :)
>

Even more so now, I would think.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 4/25/2015 3:54 PM, Stephen wrote:
>> it will update for
>> you. Where as, most stuff won't do that, and all of it that does either
>> only does it when you run the application, or requires some extra
>> process in the background.
>
> May I mention M$ update and your love for that American institution. :-P
>
> <Ducks and runs>
>
Yeah, well.. M$ update was made by idiots. Its always "security" 
patches, never real bug fixes, and when they, on rare occasion, send out 
an "optional update", like for a hardware driver, they invariably 
include, say, the update for your USB hub, but not for the USB itself, 
causing an incompatibility, which renders the whole hub non-functional. 
They managed to do the same thing with my motherboard's network 
connection one time - thankfully I was able to slog through all the 
bloody control panel shit to roll back the update.

I don't mind update systems that actually F-ing work, and where I have 
the option to only install, like with my video drivers, the ones that 
function properly, instead of stuff that will break when I try to use 
them. :p

-- 
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any 
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get 
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."

Post a reply to this message

On 26/04/2015 19:09, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 4/25/2015 3:54 PM, Stephen wrote:

>>
>> May I mention M$ update and your love for that American institution. :-P
>>
>> <Ducks and runs>
>>
> Yeah, well.. M$ update was made by idiots.

For idiots.

> Its always "security"
> patches, never real bug fixes, and when they, on rare occasion, send out
> an "optional update", like for a hardware driver, they invariably
> include, say, the update for your USB hub, but not for the USB itself,
> causing an incompatibility, which renders the whole hub non-functional.
> They managed to do the same thing with my motherboard's network
> connection one time - thankfully I was able to slog through all the
> bloody control panel shit to roll back the update.
>
> I don't mind update systems that actually F-ing work, and where I have
> the option to only install, like with my video drivers, the ones that
> function properly, instead of stuff that will break when I try to use
> them. :p
>

You won't get any arguments from me over that.
I don't need cutting edge just a stable system. I have M$ update notify 
me then pick want I want to install. Generally a few days or a week 
after it comes out. Let someone else beta test the updates, I say.

The only exposure I've had to Stream is playing Elite. Since they 
released it on Stream the forums are full of people showing their 
ignorance and demanding this that and the other.
I wonder how Blender will cope with Steamers and the learning curve.
Heigh Ho!

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 26 Apr 2015 13:12:05 +0200, Thomas de Groot wrote:

> On 26-4-2015 10:42, Stephen wrote:
>> On 26/04/2015 01:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 21:34:45 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the advantage of it being on Steam?
>>>
>>> Exposure (they've had lots of exposure as a result), and for users,
>>> ease of managing updates.
>>>
>>>
>> Exposure, I can understand, DRM as well. But managing updates sounds
>> like a solution looking for a reason.
>> I despair at times.
> 
> Me too. What's so /difficult/ about updates that they need to be
> /managed/?

Try being responsible for thousands of desktops in a corporate 
environment.

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 26/04/2015 20:54, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Try being responsible for thousands of desktops in a corporate
> environment.

I knew that you would say that. :-)
Is Stream used by corporates?

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 26-4-2015 21:54, Jim Henderson wrote:
>
> Try being responsible for thousands of desktops in a corporate
> environment.
>


Aha! Yes, I can visualise that indeed :-)

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 26/04/2015 10:09 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Generally $0 *million* for licensing stuff like this.  Licensing for
> stuff like this tends to run in the thousands, not the millions.

Really? How do you know that? I would have expected they just charge the 
maximum amount possible. And considering how many million people 
typically spend on the salaries of the thousands of people working on a 
game, a few million of the game engine they licensed is probably peanuts...

Post a reply to this message

Am 27.04.2015 um 09:37 schrieb Orchid Win7 v1:
> On 26/04/2015 10:09 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Generally $0 *million* for licensing stuff like this.  Licensing for
>> stuff like this tends to run in the thousands, not the millions.
>
> Really? How do you know that?

He might have done some... research?

> I would have expected they just charge the
> maximum amount possible.  And considering how many million people
> typically spend on the salaries of the thousands of people working on a
> game, a few million of the game engine they licensed is probably peanuts...

... but considering how CryTech doesn't have a monopoly on advanced game 
engines, game studios might still prefer not to choose the most 
expensive one, and rather make a few more peanuts worth of profit instead.

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 26 Apr 2015 21:29:44 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 26/04/2015 20:54, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Try being responsible for thousands of desktops in a corporate
>> environment.
> 
> I knew that you would say that. :-)

Of course you did. :)

> Is Stream used by corporates?

Of course not, unless playing games (the primary purpose for Steam's 
existence) is part of the job description.

But that misses my point - keeping software up to date - especially when 
it comes to MMO-style games - is really important.  I've been playing 
Destiny lately on my PS3, and it has an auto-update function built in 
that just works (never had a problem with it).  But if the game isn't 
updated and I connect to servers that have been, then that can create 
problems - the entire "system" has to be updated, which includes all the 
clients.

That's part of Steam's purpose, when it comes to games.

Don't want to use Steam to get Blender?  Cool, don't.  But for those who 
use Steam (esp. on Linux, like me) to run Blender and other stuff, 
finding the latest official package and updating it is a royal PITA (it's 
not part of the standard repos, and not maintained officially as part of 
the non-standard repos,so updates come when they come).  Steam keeps it 
up to date for me.

Which is nice.  Since it's related to POV-Ray in a tangential fashion, I 
thought others here may not have seen the announcement, so I passed it 
along as a matter of interest for those who might be interested.

For those who aren't - move along, nothing to see here. :)

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 08:37:54 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> On 26/04/2015 10:09 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Generally $0 *million* for licensing stuff like this.  Licensing for
>> stuff like this tends to run in the thousands, not the millions.
> 
> Really? How do you know that? 

I start from the assumption that when you make a statement like that, 
it's pretty much the opposite of reality unless you've provided some 
supporting information that makes logical sense.

> I would have expected they just charge the
> maximum amount possible. 

....Aaaaand yep.  Total lack of understanding when it comes to pricing 
products has been demonstrated.

> And considering how many million people
> typically spend on the salaries of the thousands of people working on a
> game, a few million of the game engine they licensed is probably
> peanuts...

Math fail.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 27/04/2015 05:37 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 08:37:54 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> Really? How do you know that?
>
> I start from the assumption that when you make a statement like that,
> it's pretty much the opposite of reality unless you've provided some
> supporting information that makes logical sense.

Oh, right. I thought maybe you had some actual experience in this area.

>> I would have expected they just charge the
>> maximum amount possible.
>
> ....Aaaaand yep.  Total lack of understanding when it comes to pricing
> products has been demonstrated.

What, charge the customer the maximum amount of money they will pay? 
Isn't that how business operates?

Post a reply to this message

>> Really? How do you know that?
>
> He might have done some... research?

It's not like you can ask a company "by the way, how much did you pay 
for CryEngine?" I very much doubt they would answer you. (It may also be 
subject to an NDA, but I doubt it.)

> ... but considering how CryTech doesn't have a monopoly on advanced game
> engines, game studios might still prefer not to choose the most
> expensive one, and rather make a few more peanuts worth of profit instead.

But on the first hand, AAA developers seem to think that the only way to 
sell games is to have the best, most impressive game engine with the 
most incredible graphics. (It's not like *gameplay* matters or anything 
like that.) So presumably they buy the most technically impressive 
engine. Money isn't the primary considering here.

Post a reply to this message

On 27/04/2015 17:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Math fail.

That is because it is Maths :-P

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 27/04/2015 17:35, Jim Henderson wrote:

> But that misses my point - keeping software up to date - especially when
> it comes to MMO-style games - is really important.

I am an egg.

 > I've been playing
> Destiny lately on my PS3, and it has an auto-update function built in
> that just works (never had a problem with it).  But if the game isn't
> updated and I connect to servers that have been, then that can create
> problems - the entire "system" has to be updated, which includes all the
> clients.
>
> That's part of Steam's purpose, when it comes to games.
>

That fits in with my limited experience.

> Don't want to use Steam to get Blender?  Cool, don't.  But for those who
> use Steam (esp. on Linux, like me) to run Blender and other stuff,
> finding the latest official package and updating it is a royal PITA (it's
> not part of the standard repos, and not maintained officially as part of
> the non-standard repos,so updates come when they come).  Steam keeps it
> up to date for me.
>
I live and learn. Sometimes I die and learn

> Which is nice.  Since it's related to POV-Ray in a tangential fashion, I
> thought others here may not have seen the announcement, so I passed it
> along as a matter of interest for those who might be interested.
>

Okay, not joking now. Thank you on behalf...

My point which I did not make is that constant updates can be a Pita. 
Every time I've updated Blender I have to go and change my preferences 
to what I've had before. I know, I know... But I'm lazy.
I depend on the basic functionality although I appreciate all the work 
the community does. Although I sometimes get the impression that if you 
are not using the latest wizz bang version you are looked down on.
Kids. ;-)

Same with PovRay. I have Ver 3.5 for Moray, 3.6 for Bishop3D and 3.7 for 
speed.


> For those who aren't - move along, nothing to see here.:)

Except skid marks.

Sorry if it seemed that I jumped on you. Not intended. Too much respect.
As my old dead grannie used to say.
"Your tongue will get you hung."

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:22:37 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 27/04/2015 17:35, Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> But that misses my point - keeping software up to date - especially
>> when it comes to MMO-style games - is really important.
> 
> I am an egg.

:)

> Sorry if it seemed that I jumped on you. Not intended. Too much respect.
> As my old dead grannie used to say.
> "Your tongue will get you hung."

I like that saying.  Sorry if it seemed I jumped on you - that's on me, 
not you.  Been dealing with some personal life crap this last weekend, 
and it kinda spilled over.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:06:31 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> Really? How do you know that?
>>
>> He might have done some... research?
> 
> It's not like you can ask a company "by the way, how much did you pay
> for CryEngine?" I very much doubt they would answer you. (It may also be
> subject to an NDA, but I doubt it.)

Oh, FFS:

http://bit.ly/1dlJfKx

The first f-ing hit, Andy.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:04:26 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> On 27/04/2015 05:37 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 08:37:54 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>> Really? How do you know that?
>>
>> I start from the assumption that when you make a statement like that,
>> it's pretty much the opposite of reality unless you've provided some
>> supporting information that makes logical sense.
> 
> Oh, right. I thought maybe you had some actual experience in this area.

When it comes down to it, using Google to find the answer is something I 
have experience with.

>>> I would have expected they just charge the maximum amount possible.
>>
>> ....Aaaaand yep.  Total lack of understanding when it comes to pricing
>> products has been demonstrated.
> 
> What, charge the customer the maximum amount of money they will pay?
> Isn't that how business operates?

And what makes you think that value is "millions of dollars"? On what 
planet does that make any business sense at all?

It's like explaining picking an hourly rate to someone who charges too 
little for their work.  If you charge $10/hour for your work, it takes 
you 40 hours to make $400.  If you charge $25/hour for your work, in 20 
hours you make more than double that.

So no, in business, you don't charge "the maximum amount of money a 
customer will pay" - you determine the point where the *most* customers 
will pay that generates you a good profit.

If your market share is *1*, you might charge $1 million, but you 
probably won't get anyone to pay it.

But as it happens, CryEngine 3 doesn't have a royalty.  Start using 
Google to do some research before making crazy statements - you only 
damage your own reputation by making such ridiculous statements.

You're a smart guy.  Use your brain.

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:07:24 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 27/04/2015 17:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Math fail.
> 
> That is because it is Maths :-P

Well, in this case, it's only a singular equation, but I take your point, 
British. ;)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 27/04/2015 21:14, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:22:37 +0100, Stephen wrote:

>
>> Sorry if it seemed that I jumped on you. Not intended. Too much respect.
>> As my old dead grannie used to say.
>> "Your tongue will get you hung."
>
> I like that saying.

How very close she was. :-)

> Sorry if it seemed I jumped on you - that's on me,
> not you.  Been dealing with some personal life crap this last weekend,
> and it kinda spilled over.
>

You and me, both. ;-)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 27/04/2015 21:20, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:07:24 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 27/04/2015 17:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Math fail.
>>
>> That is because it is Maths :-P
>
> Well, in this case, it's only a singular equation,

But a mass noun.

> but I take your point,  British. ;)
>

Points I did not point. ;-)

Yank[s] :-P

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 22:16:46 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 27/04/2015 21:20, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:07:24 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2015 17:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> Math fail.
>>>
>>> That is because it is Maths :-P
>>
>> Well, in this case, it's only a singular equation,
> 
> But a mass noun.

Well, technically, it was an arithmetic fail. ;)

>> but I take your point,  British. ;)
>>
>>
> Points I did not point. ;-)
> 
> Yank[s] :-P

Hehehehehe



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 4/27/2015 10:22 AM, Stephen wrote:
> My point which I did not make is that constant updates can be a Pita.
> Every time I've updated Blender I have to go and change my preferences
> to what I've had before.
>
Now.. That is bad design. Most things "do not touch" your settings. If 
they do, they include something to save the originals. If a program is 
doing this, and its not because something changed so drastically that it 
*can't* use the prior settings....


-- 
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any 
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get 
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."

Post a reply to this message

On 27/04/2015 23:57, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 22:16:46 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 27/04/2015 21:20, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:07:24 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/04/2015 17:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>> Math fail.
>>>>
>>>> That is because it is Maths :-P
>>>
>>> Well, in this case, it's only a singular equation,
>>
>> But a mass noun.
>
> Well, technically, it was an arithmetic fail. ;)
>

I posit it was a fail of imagination.



-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 27-4-2015 18:35, Jim Henderson wrote:
[snip]
>
> Which is nice.  Since it's related to POV-Ray in a tangential fashion, I
> thought others here may not have seen the announcement, so I passed it
> along as a matter of interest for those who might be interested.

Your explanation made it perfectly clear to me now. Thanks!

>
> For those who aren't - move along, nothing to see here. :)

LOL

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

> What, charge the customer the maximum amount of money they will pay?
> Isn't that how business operates?

If you can afford to have individual price negotations with each 
customer then yes, that is a good strategy, and is actually the one used 
for many things. eg when you buy a car the salesman's job is to get you 
to buy the car for the maximum amount you are willing to. This could 
result in the next person through the door buying the exact same car for 
£1000 more or less than you just paid.

At the other end of the scale you have a tin of beans in a supermarket, 
the price of that is decided to maximise profit. They need to look at 
how the estimated sales volumes depend on price, and choose the best 
point on that graph. Of course in reality there are many complicating 
factors that would skew the price away from this (eg loss-leaders, 
promotions, "value" and "high quality" branded versions, etc).

I have no idea how cryengine is sold (internet blocks most game-related 
pages here) but I could well imagine their big customers pretty much 
demand some level of negotiation on the price and terms etc. What 
business doesn't?

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 06:14:08 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 27/04/2015 23:57, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 22:16:46 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/04/2015 21:20, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 18:07:24 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/04/2015 17:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>>>> Math fail.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is because it is Maths :-P
>>>>
>>>> Well, in this case, it's only a singular equation,
>>>
>>> But a mass noun.
>>
>> Well, technically, it was an arithmetic fail. ;)
>>
>>
> I posit it was a fail of imagination.

Or indeed, just a general fail. ;)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 28/04/2015 17:28, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Or indeed, just a general fail.;)

:-)


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 28/04/2015 08:42 AM, scott wrote:
>> What, charge the customer the maximum amount of money they will pay?
>> Isn't that how business operates?
>
> If you can afford to have individual price negotations with each
> customer then yes, that is a good strategy, and is actually the one used
> for many things. eg when you buy a car the salesman's job is to get you
> to buy the car for the maximum amount you are willing to. This could
> result in the next person through the door buying the exact same car for
> £1000 more or less than you just paid.
>
> At the other end of the scale you have a tin of beans in a supermarket,
> the price of that is decided to maximise profit. They need to look at
> how the estimated sales volumes depend on price, and choose the best
> point on that graph. Of course in reality there are many complicating
> factors that would skew the price away from this (eg loss-leaders,
> promotions, "value" and "high quality" branded versions, etc).

That all makes sense.

> I have no idea how cryengine is sold (internet blocks most game-related
> pages here) but I could well imagine their big customers pretty much
> demand some level of negotiation on the price and terms etc. What
> business doesn't?

As I say, I would imagine the big customers are the *only* customers, 
and when you're expecting a game to make XXX million sales, you demand a 
big, fat cut in royalties.

...then again, maybe they aren't doing so well lately, which is why it's 
on Steam in the first place? IDK.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:07:31 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> As I say, I would imagine the big customers are the *only* customers,
> and when you're expecting a game to make XXX million sales, you demand a
> big, fat cut in royalties.

Indie gaming shops aren't "big customers".  But as I pointed to in the 
link, at least with the $9.90/month (or whatever it is) subscription, 
there is a *0* royalty paid.

> ...then again, maybe they aren't doing so well lately, which is why it's
> on Steam in the first place? IDK.

Software subscription models are very different than perpetual license 
models.  With a perpetual license (ie, you buy the software, it's yours, 
and maybe you upgrade, maybe you don't) don't provide stable income into 
a company, which makes it a lot more difficult to project future growth 
for the company.

Software subscriptions have the potential to make it easier to project 
future growth - unless you completely piss off your customers so they 
drop the subscription.  You always have some attrition, but most 
"schedule and forget" payments end up keeping people paying for things 
they're not necessarily using (though in some markets, that's not always 
the case - SaaS models that involve data storage or some level of 
incorporation of a customer's data tend to be easier to justify because 
you have a cost involved in migrating away from the solution).

I imagine for the CryTek, the subscription model is more lucrative than 
licensing to a few people - you get hobbyists who want to play with it 
who could never afford to pay the $1.2 million (yes, I looked it up - 
that was the cost reported in 2012 - so I owe you an apology, because 
while it's not "millions" it is > 1 million.  So my apologies for coming 
down quite as hard as I did.) licensing fee now have a professional level 
tool they can access for a reasonable price.  Lower price, larger market, 
increases revenue.  Instead of 10 people paying $1.2 million (netting $12 
million in perpetual licensing fees), they can get, say, 100,000 people 
paying $10/month - or $120/year - which is a net of $12 million.

Those 100,000 people keep paying into year 2, but they keep acquiring new 
customers, and now your year over year goes up past $12 million per year 
- you have recurring revenue that far, far, *far* outstrips the money you 
made selling perpetual licenses to 10 customers.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

> I imagine for the CryTek, the subscription model is more lucrative than
> licensing to a few people - you get hobbyists who want to play with it
> who could never afford to pay the $1.2 million (yes, I looked it up -
> that was the cost reported in 2012 - so I owe you an apology, because
> while it's not "millions" it is > 1 million.  So my apologies for coming
> down quite as hard as I did.) licensing fee now have a professional level
> tool they can access for a reasonable price.  Lower price, larger market,
> increases revenue.  Instead of 10 people paying $1.2 million (netting $12
> million in perpetual licensing fees), they can get, say, 100,000 people
> paying $10/month - or $120/year - which is a net of $12 million.

And if they were clever they would put something in the license of the 
$10/month version that prevented the huge companies using it, thus 
keeping the 10 people paying $1.2 million at the same time :-)

Post a reply to this message

On 27-4-2015 19:22, Stephen wrote:

> My point which I did not make is that constant updates can be a Pita.
> Every time I've updated Blender I have to go and change my preferences
> to what I've had before. I know, I know... But I'm lazy.
> I depend on the basic functionality although I appreciate all the work
> the community does. Although I sometimes get the impression that if you
> are not using the latest wizz bang version you are looked down on.
> Kids. ;-)

It seems to me that Blender does not /update/ but just /replaces/ the 
previous version. In fact there is no /update/ facility as I understand 
it, at all at all, or am I wrong?

-- 
Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 29/04/2015 08:19, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> On 27-4-2015 19:22, Stephen wrote:
>
>> My point which I did not make is that constant updates can be a Pita.
>> Every time I've updated Blender I have to go and change my preferences
>> to what I've had before. I know, I know... But I'm lazy.
>> I depend on the basic functionality although I appreciate all the work
>> the community does. Although I sometimes get the impression that if you
>> are not using the latest wizz bang version you are looked down on.
>> Kids. ;-)
>
> It seems to me that Blender does not /update/ but just /replaces/ the
> previous version. In fact there is no /update/ facility as I understand
> it, at all at all, or am I wrong?
>

That is my understanding too.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 07:54:58 +0100, scott wrote:

>> I imagine for the CryTek, the subscription model is more lucrative than
>> licensing to a few people - you get hobbyists who want to play with it
>> who could never afford to pay the $1.2 million (yes, I looked it up -
>> that was the cost reported in 2012 - so I owe you an apology, because
>> while it's not "millions" it is > 1 million.  So my apologies for
>> coming down quite as hard as I did.) licensing fee now have a
>> professional level tool they can access for a reasonable price.  Lower
>> price, larger market,
>> increases revenue.  Instead of 10 people paying $1.2 million (netting
>> $12 million in perpetual licensing fees), they can get, say, 100,000
>> people paying $10/month - or $120/year - which is a net of $12 million.
> 
> And if they were clever they would put something in the license of the
> $10/month version that prevented the huge companies using it, thus
> keeping the 10 people paying $1.2 million at the same time :-)

I would be surprised if they did, actually - in the long run, the monthly 
subscription would generally net them more than a perpetual license would.

The larger companies might opt to negotiate for a perpetual license, 
though, in the event that the company went away (for whatever reason) so 
they could continue to maintain their product which depends on the engine.

What they might have, though, is something for corporate licensing that 
requires a license per developer or something like that.

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

>> And if they were clever they would put something in the license of the
>> $10/month version that prevented the huge companies using it, thus
>> keeping the 10 people paying $1.2 million at the same time :-)
>
> I would be surprised if they did, actually - in the long run, the monthly
> subscription would generally net them more than a perpetual license would.

There's a lot of $10's in $1.2m :-)

Post a reply to this message

On 29/04/2015 16:55, scott wrote:
>
> There's a lot of $10's in $1.2m :-)

Only a myriad @ $10 per month for a year. ^.^

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:55:58 +0100, scott wrote:

>>> And if they were clever they would put something in the license of the
>>> $10/month version that prevented the huge companies using it, thus
>>> keeping the 10 people paying $1.2 million at the same time :-)
>>
>> I would be surprised if they did, actually - in the long run, the
>> monthly subscription would generally net them more than a perpetual
>> license would.
> 
> There's a lot of $10's in $1.2m :-)

Yes, but that's the beauty of subscription pricing - it builds because 
you have recurring revenue.

$120 per year per user.  Over the long haul, that can net you more than a 
perpetual license - and from a business standpoint, the revenue stream is 
more predictable, which makes the business more stable.

That also makes it more reliable to update the product being licensed in 
this way.  With a perpetual license, you have to support each version for 
a period of time regardless of whether or not the customer upgrades to 
the latest version, which increases your cost overheads.

With a subscription - particularly in a SaaS environment - you always 
have your customers on the latest version - so you only have to support 
the current version.  That changes the support overhead significantly (it 
does, however, add some complexity when it comes to providing backwards 
compatibility - how much depends on the development model).

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 29/04/2015 07:54 AM, scott wrote:
> And if they were clever they would put something in the license of the
> $10/month version that prevented the huge companies using it, thus
> keeping the 10 people paying $1.2 million at the same time :-)

Might I suggest that when you spend $1.2 million licensing the thing, 
you're probably also paying for consultation services and developer time 
to tweak the engine how you want it and optimise your game to run better 
than your competitor's games...

Post a reply to this message