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<rant>
Got this email last week about a position I had applied for back in
early May ... stated "Please contact me ASAP if you're still interested
in this position". Evidently the person that was hired wasn't working
out. Replied ... "Sure I'm still available and I would be glad to meet
with you at your convenience". The next day as I was heading home from
helping brother-in-law clean up two storm fallen trees, I get a call on
my cell asking if I could come in right away for an interview. I
indicated that I'd needed to get home first and get cleaned up. His
response ... "We're very informal here so come on ahead". I thought how
odd, but I was there within a half hour ... wait it get's stranger.
Before I'd even finished introductions (hand shaking etc) he told me
that he wasn't even going to bother with technical aspects of interview.
He added that he was ex US Navy and had gone through the same
electronics training that I had and that my credentials weren't going to
be an issue. We swapped Navy stories for about 45 minutes, then started
a tour of shop area ... then on the way back to the office he turned to
me and ask what my religious beliefs were!!!! I thoughtfully offered
that I hadn't been to church since I was a young man, however I did take
a theology course in college to fulfill my humanities requirement.
Things proceeded normally and as we parted he indicated that he needed
some time to "pray on it" and that he would get back to me shortly. Two
days after interview I sent follow up email thanking him for his time. A
week after interview sent another email asking if there had been any
movement on his opportunity, and got a reply indicating that he was
swamped with quotes to new clients, and that he would get back to me by
the end of the week ... this past Friday. Monday afternoon sent another
email that went unanswered ... I think the handwriting is on the wall,
that I won't be made an offer. Now you wonder that given what I've
written so far, why would I want to work for such a person/company ...
well I desperately need a job. Finally I'd like to add that it's my
understanding that asking about my religious beliefs (among other
things) is a no-no here in the US (don't know or care about elsewhere)
and that if I wanted to be a prick about it I could make trouble. Fat
chance of it going anywhere if I did stir it up, as it was just us two
and it would eventually boil down to my word against his. Sad state of
affairs ... don't you think?
</rant>
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Le 2014-07-23 07:37, James Holsenback a écrit :
> <rant>
> Got this email last week about a position I had applied for back in
> early May ... stated "Please contact me ASAP if you're still interested
> in this position". Evidently the person that was hired wasn't working
> out. Replied ... "Sure I'm still available and I would be glad to meet
> with you at your convenience". The next day as I was heading home from
> helping brother-in-law clean up two storm fallen trees, I get a call on
> my cell asking if I could come in right away for an interview. I
> indicated that I'd needed to get home first and get cleaned up. His
> response ... "We're very informal here so come on ahead". I thought how
> odd, but I was there within a half hour ... wait it get's stranger.
> Before I'd even finished introductions (hand shaking etc) he told me
> that he wasn't even going to bother with technical aspects of interview.
> He added that he was ex US Navy and had gone through the same
> electronics training that I had and that my credentials weren't going to
> be an issue. We swapped Navy stories for about 45 minutes, then started
> a tour of shop area ... then on the way back to the office he turned to
> me and ask what my religious beliefs were!!!! I thoughtfully offered
> that I hadn't been to church since I was a young man, however I did take
> a theology course in college to fulfill my humanities requirement.
> Things proceeded normally and as we parted he indicated that he needed
> some time to "pray on it" and that he would get back to me shortly. Two
> days after interview I sent follow up email thanking him for his time. A
> week after interview sent another email asking if there had been any
> movement on his opportunity, and got a reply indicating that he was
> swamped with quotes to new clients, and that he would get back to me by
> the end of the week ... this past Friday. Monday afternoon sent another
> email that went unanswered ... I think the handwriting is on the wall,
> that I won't be made an offer. Now you wonder that given what I've
> written so far, why would I want to work for such a person/company ...
> well I desperately need a job. Finally I'd like to add that it's my
> understanding that asking about my religious beliefs (among other
> things) is a no-no here in the US (don't know or care about elsewhere)
> and that if I wanted to be a prick about it I could make trouble. Fat
> chance of it going anywhere if I did stir it up, as it was just us two
> and it would eventually boil down to my word against his. Sad state of
> affairs ... don't you think?
> </rant>
If you did raise a stink about it, and the company was forced to hire
you, you'd know that this person would probably never fully trust you
and it would make the workplace atmosphere very heavy.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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On 07/23/2014 09:09 AM, Francois Labreque wrote:
> Le 2014-07-23 07:37, James Holsenback a écrit :
>> <rant>
>> Got this email last week about a position I had applied for back in
>> early May ... stated "Please contact me ASAP if you're still interested
>> in this position". Evidently the person that was hired wasn't working
>> out. Replied ... "Sure I'm still available and I would be glad to meet
>> with you at your convenience". The next day as I was heading home from
>> helping brother-in-law clean up two storm fallen trees, I get a call on
>> my cell asking if I could come in right away for an interview. I
>> indicated that I'd needed to get home first and get cleaned up. His
>> response ... "We're very informal here so come on ahead". I thought how
>> odd, but I was there within a half hour ... wait it get's stranger.
>> Before I'd even finished introductions (hand shaking etc) he told me
>> that he wasn't even going to bother with technical aspects of interview.
>> He added that he was ex US Navy and had gone through the same
>> electronics training that I had and that my credentials weren't going to
>> be an issue. We swapped Navy stories for about 45 minutes, then started
>> a tour of shop area ... then on the way back to the office he turned to
>> me and ask what my religious beliefs were!!!! I thoughtfully offered
>> that I hadn't been to church since I was a young man, however I did take
>> a theology course in college to fulfill my humanities requirement.
>> Things proceeded normally and as we parted he indicated that he needed
>> some time to "pray on it" and that he would get back to me shortly. Two
>> days after interview I sent follow up email thanking him for his time. A
>> week after interview sent another email asking if there had been any
>> movement on his opportunity, and got a reply indicating that he was
>> swamped with quotes to new clients, and that he would get back to me by
>> the end of the week ... this past Friday. Monday afternoon sent another
>> email that went unanswered ... I think the handwriting is on the wall,
>> that I won't be made an offer. Now you wonder that given what I've
>> written so far, why would I want to work for such a person/company ...
>> well I desperately need a job. Finally I'd like to add that it's my
>> understanding that asking about my religious beliefs (among other
>> things) is a no-no here in the US (don't know or care about elsewhere)
>> and that if I wanted to be a prick about it I could make trouble. Fat
>> chance of it going anywhere if I did stir it up, as it was just us two
>> and it would eventually boil down to my word against his. Sad state of
>> affairs ... don't you think?
>> </rant>
>
> If you did raise a stink about it, and the company was forced to hire
> you, you'd know that this person would probably never fully trust you
> and it would make the workplace atmosphere very heavy.
>
no kidding ... i guess my task now is to burn off a few calories in a
more productive manner (wax on wax off)
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:37:59 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:
> Sad
> state of affairs ... don't you think?
Very much so.
If that question came up (it fortunately hasn't for me), my answer would
probably be something along the lines of "The position in question is
looking for a number of skills I have; how do my personal beliefs relate
to the responsibilities of the job?"
This seems good:
http://www.businessinsider.com/when-hr-asks-about-religion-in-
interview-2014-5
So does this (from "Ask a Manager" - I really like the "That's an unusual
question, why do you ask?" answer)
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2011/01/10/is-
that-interview-question-legal
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:09:41 -0400, Francois Labreque wrote:
> If you did raise a stink about it, and the company was forced to hire
> you,
> you'd know that this person would probably never fully trust you and it
> would make the workplace atmosphere very heavy.
The purpose in raising a stink about it isn't so much so they hire you,
but so they know that making hiring decisions in that way is in fact
illegal in the US.
I would never want to take a job with a company that put personal
religious belief before one's ability to do the job. There was a company
in that I considered working for, until I found this on their website:
"[company] started the company with a vision and core values inspired by
their religious beliefs and a desire to honor God by applying Biblical
principles in relation to employees, customers, and financial dealings."
I see that they have now clarified (they didn't at the time, as I recall)
that they don't have a particular religious *requirement*.
I didn't even bother applying. Not because I'm amoral, but because the
religious overtones left a bad impression. It's possible to say that you
expect people to be responsible and ethical (indeed, what company
*doesn't* want that?) without framing it in religious terms.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 13:38:11 -0400, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:09:41 -0400, Francois Labreque wrote:
>
>> If you did raise a stink about it, and the company was forced to hire
>> you,
>> you'd know that this person would probably never fully trust you and it
>> would make the workplace atmosphere very heavy.
>
> The purpose in raising a stink about it isn't so much so they hire you,
> but so they know that making hiring decisions in that way is in fact
> illegal in the US.
>
> I would never want to take a job with a company that put personal
> religious belief before one's ability to do the job. There was a
> company in that I considered working for, until I found this on their
> website:
>
> "[company] started the company with a vision and core values inspired by
> their religious beliefs and a desire to honor God by applying Biblical
> principles in relation to employees, customers, and financial dealings."
>
> I see that they have now clarified (they didn't at the time, as I
> recall)
> that they don't have a particular religious *requirement*.
>
> I didn't even bother applying. Not because I'm amoral, but because the
> religious overtones left a bad impression. It's possible to say that
> you expect people to be responsible and ethical (indeed, what company
> *doesn't* want that?) without framing it in religious terms.
>
> Jim
BTW, James, if you want to ping me offline (I believe you have my e-mail
address), I'd be happy to keep my eyes open in my own professional
network for positions that match up with what you're looking for.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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...in the HELL?!
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Le 2014-07-23 13:28, Jim Henderson a écrit :
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:37:59 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:
>
>> Sad
>> state of affairs ... don't you think?
>
> Very much so.
>
> If that question came up (it fortunately hasn't for me), my answer would
> probably be something along the lines of "The position in question is
> looking for a number of skills I have; how do my personal beliefs relate
> to the responsibilities of the job?"
>
> This seems good:
>
> http://www.businessinsider.com/when-hr-asks-about-religion-in-
> interview-2014-5
I was going to say that we do most of our maintenance releases on
Saturdays, and this can cause problems with the more pious jews. but
apart from that, it shouldn't matter.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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>> Sad
>> state of affairs ... don't you think?
>
> Very much so.
>
> If that question came up (it fortunately hasn't for me), my answer would
> probably be something along the lines of "The position in question is
> looking for a number of skills I have; how do my personal beliefs relate
> to the responsibilities of the job?"
Or something like, "Oh - will it be a problem if I'm not available
Sunday mornings to work?" :-)
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I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.
Love and tolerance indeed...
--
- Warp
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On 07/24/2014 04:48 AM, Warp wrote:
> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
> shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.
>
> Love and tolerance indeed...
>
and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
Me: Curious as to when I might expect some sort of decision.
Him: I've been buried with quoting a bunch of stuff with a new customer.
Hope to get back with you later this week.
Silence for 10 days ...
Me: I'm hoping you've found a moment or two to think about taking me on,
so I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and ask .... When do I start!
Nothing after 5 more days ...
Without getting into gory details I /was/ actually willing to choke down
the bile and take one for my team (family) and accept the position if it
was offered. Thanks goodness my ex-ex wife can still read me like a book
and has let me off the hook
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On 24/07/2014 09:48 AM, Warp wrote:
> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
> shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.
>
> Love and tolerance indeed...
Never mind that - I'm told there are places where if you say, out loud,
that you don't believe in God, next day you'll find your house has been
burned to the ground. And don't bother reporting it to the police
either; they probably helped burn it.
Glad I don't live there...
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On 24/07/2014 11:36, James Holsenback wrote:
> On 07/24/2014 04:48 AM, Warp wrote:
>> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
>> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
>> shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.
>>
>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>
>
> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
>
> Me: Curious as to when I might expect some sort of decision.
> Him: I've been buried with quoting a bunch of stuff with a new customer.
> Hope to get back with you later this week.
>
> Silence for 10 days ...
> Me: I'm hoping you've found a moment or two to think about taking me on,
> so I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and ask .... When do I start!
>
> Nothing after 5 more days ...
>
> Without getting into gory details I /was/ actually willing to choke down
> the bile and take one for my team (family) and accept the position if it
> was offered. Thanks goodness my ex-ex wife can still read me like a book
> and has let me off the hook
From my top-boss, speaking about the owner: when owner say "I will call
you on that", it means there will be no call and the subject is not to
be raised again.
It's better once you got the sub-titles.
--
IQ of crossposters with FU: 100 / (number of groups)
IQ of crossposters without FU: 100 / (1 + number of groups)
IQ of multiposters: 100 / ( (number of groups) * (number of groups))
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On 07/24/2014 06:02 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 24/07/2014 09:48 AM, Warp wrote:
>> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
>> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
>> shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.
>>
>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>
> Never mind that - I'm told there are places where if you say, out loud,
> that you don't believe in God, next day you'll find your house has been
> burned to the ground. And don't bother reporting it to the police
> either; they probably helped burn it.
>
> Glad I don't live there...
LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
"God Delivers" sign in his front yard. Now he's a pleasant enough
fellow, who has been going through a rather rough patch lately. He's
never tired to sermonize but I often felt the urge to ask him ... how's
that working out for ya!
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On 07/24/2014 06:07 AM, Le_Forgeron wrote:
> On 24/07/2014 11:36, James Holsenback wrote:
>> On 07/24/2014 04:48 AM, Warp wrote:
>>> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
>>> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
>>> shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.
>>>
>>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>>
>>
>> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
>>
>> Me: Curious as to when I might expect some sort of decision.
>> Him: I've been buried with quoting a bunch of stuff with a new customer.
>> Hope to get back with you later this week.
>>
>> Silence for 10 days ...
>> Me: I'm hoping you've found a moment or two to think about taking me on,
>> so I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and ask .... When do I start!
>>
>> Nothing after 5 more days ...
>>
>> Without getting into gory details I /was/ actually willing to choke down
>> the bile and take one for my team (family) and accept the position if it
>> was offered. Thanks goodness my ex-ex wife can still read me like a book
>> and has let me off the hook
>
> From my top-boss, speaking about the owner: when owner say "I will call
> you on that", it means there will be no call and the subject is not to
> be raised again.
>
> It's better once you got the sub-titles.
>
yep normally that would be my take as well ... i guess i was expecting
more from one of my fellow "brothers in arms"
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Am 24.07.2014 10:48, schrieb Warp:
> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
> shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.
As a matter of fact the US have a long-standing history of this, dating
back even to British colonial times.
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Am 24.07.2014 12:09, schrieb James Holsenback:
> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
> "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.
I thought it was Virgin Mary who had done the delivering job... did I
miss something? :-P
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 04:48:34 -0400, Warp wrote:
> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
> shunned and discriminated against.
Actually, a more accurate way to say that at the moment would be that
there are some places where it's OK to be an out Atheist.
It's gotten better in the past few years, but, particularly in small
towns in the south, it can be extremely difficult to be an out Atheist.
Distrust of atheists is high enough that most people won't vote for a
politician who says they're an atheist. Hell, Barney Frank - the first
openly gay US senator - came out as an atheist only *after* he retired.
It was safer (for his career) for him to be out as gay than out as an
atheist.
And he was one of the two senators from Massachusetts.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On 07/24/2014 10:36 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 24.07.2014 12:09, schrieb James Holsenback:
>
>> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
>> "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.
>
> I thought it was Virgin Mary who had done the delivering job... did I
> miss something? :-P
>
LOL ... blasphemer ;-)
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 05:36:00 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:
>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>
>>
> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
Well, that depends. If you're a Republican and do all the "Jesus is
Lord" stuff, then you can practically get away with murder and not have
to leave office.
If you're a Democrat and you send a sext to someone, you are forced to
resign in disgrace.
While both sides have examples that contradict, overwhelmingly, if you're
a Republican elected official and you get mired in a sex scandal or
something, you aren't forced to leave office.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 06:09:46 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:
> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
> "God Delivers" sign in his front yard. Now he's a pleasant enough
> fellow,
> who has been going through a rather rough patch lately. He's never tired
> to sermonize but I often felt the urge to ask him ... how's that working
> out for ya!
The illogic of the belief is that when things DO improve, that's the
point where God has come through for him.
I've got family who have been through terrible cancer, and they praise
God for helping them get through it.
I would never, ever put someone in that position through having to reason
through "if God was on my side, why the hell did I get cancer in the
first place?" though.
Although I did ask a coworker once "If angels exist, were the all on
vacation on 9/11?" That provoked a very thoughtful discussion,
ultimately he couldn't disagree with me. (This was a coworker who I was
- and still am - good friends with.)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:36:46 +0200, clipka wrote:
> Am 24.07.2014 12:09, schrieb James Holsenback:
>
>> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a
>> large "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.
>
> I thought it was Virgin Mary who had done the delivering job... did I
> miss something? :-P
LOL
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospam com> wrote:
> Distrust of atheists is high enough that most people won't vote for a
> politician who says they're an atheist. Hell, Barney Frank - the first
> openly gay US senator - came out as an atheist only *after* he retired.
> It was safer (for his career) for him to be out as gay than out as an
> atheist.
Something like 20 or 30 years ago it was basically a political suicide
in the United States to openly declare your religion, because that would
have driven away at least half of your voters.
"Oh, he's a Catholic. Those aren't even real Christians! I'm certainly
not voting for him!"
"Oh, he's a Pentecostal. Those are crazy cultists! I'm not voting for him!"
"Oh, he's a Mormon..."
At some point this got changed and reverse. Nowadays it's a political
suicide to *not* declare your religion. You can be even a Mormon and
still have a good chance at precidency. Even Christians who completely
abhor mormonism (with its teachings about multiple gods, how people
become gods, baptizing for the dead, temple rituals etc.) will actually
try to find excuses and rationalize how it's not that bad. At least they
believe in God... (or at least a slightly similar version of God than
the more traditional one. Let's just pretend that mormonism doesn't
teach that God has a wife etc...)
--
- Warp
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 01:28:54 -0400, Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> Distrust of atheists is high enough that most people won't vote for a
>> politician who says they're an atheist. Hell, Barney Frank - the first
>> openly gay US senator - came out as an atheist only *after* he retired.
>> It was safer (for his career) for him to be out as gay than out as an
>> atheist.
>
> Something like 20 or 30 years ago it was basically a political suicide
> in the United States to openly declare your religion, because that would
> have driven away at least half of your voters.
Well, 20-30 years ago, basically, you couldn't say you were Catholic,
because the problem there was not that the candidate isn't a "real"
Christian, but rather the impression was that given a choice between
deciding on a course of action that was good for the country or doing
what the Pope said, it was assumed that the President would be answerable
to the Pope, and that would make the US a de-facto subject of the Vatican.
> "Oh, he's a Catholic. Those aren't even real Christians! I'm certainly
> not voting for him!"
>
> "Oh, he's a Pentecostal. Those are crazy cultists! I'm not voting for
> him!"
Protestantism would be the safest form of Christianity for a politician
at those times, and it would just be assumed to be the case.
> "Oh, he's a Mormon..."
>
> At some point this got changed and reverse. Nowadays it's a political
> suicide to *not* declare your religion. You can be even a Mormon and
> still have a good chance at precidency.
Romney never really had a good chance at being the president. That
entire election was nothing more than a fiasco for the GOP.
> Even Christians who completely
> abhor mormonism (with its teachings about multiple gods, how people
> become gods, baptizing for the dead, temple rituals etc.) will actually
> try to find excuses and rationalize how it's not that bad. At least they
> believe in God... (or at least a slightly similar version of God than
> the more traditional one. Let's just pretend that mormonism doesn't
> teach that God has a wife etc...)
Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the
general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what he
believes or what his church practices. I may not have liked him as a
candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's not
what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith. If he
had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his faith be
front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight. He
considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his policy
choices.
But there's still no way I would have voted for him. But I do wish more
candidates would say "you know what? My beliefs are not your business,
they're mine." - and then left it at that, and let their actions rather
than their beliefs (or perceptions about their beliefs) be what they were
judged on by the electorate.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On 7/24/2014 9:23 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 05:36:00 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:
>
>>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>>
>>>
>> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
>
> Well, that depends. If you're a Republican and do all the "Jesus is
> Lord" stuff, then you can practically get away with murder and not have
> to leave office.
>
> If you're a Democrat and you send a sext to someone, you are forced to
> resign in disgrace.
>
> While both sides have examples that contradict, overwhelmingly, if you're
> a Republican elected official and you get mired in a sex scandal or
> something, you aren't forced to leave office.
>
> Jim
>
Gosh, of course not. As long as your diddling Jesus in the restrooms,
along with whom ever else you had a scandal with, its all forgiven.
Didn't you know this? lol
--
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."
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On 7/24/2014 9:19 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 04:48:34 -0400, Warp wrote:
>
>> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
>> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
>> shunned and discriminated against.
>
> Actually, a more accurate way to say that at the moment would be that
> there are some places where it's OK to be an out Atheist.
>
> It's gotten better in the past few years, but, particularly in small
> towns in the south, it can be extremely difficult to be an out Atheist.
>
Yeah, most of those places being the wrong religion, and questioning why
some "public" event is opened with a prayer to the god of right wing
evangelicalism, instead of just about anything else, will get you run
out of town. These places only play lip service to the usual lie that
Jews, Christians, and for some reason, Buddhists are all welcome (the
three faiths most often quoted by idiots claiming they are "inclusive"),
but everyone else will burn in hell. If you actually make a complaint
while being the wrong one of these, or almost worse, one of those damn
"liberal" Christians and you might as well be black, 50+ years ago, with
a sheet factory down the street from you.
--
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."
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On 7/25/2014 12:10 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the
> general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what he
> believes or what his church practices. I may not have liked him as a
> candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's not
> what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith. If he
> had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his faith be
> front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight. He
> considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his policy
> choices.
>
On that note - what the hell where his policies exactly, I never noted
him actually pinning any down, really, unless, "I picked a Tea Party nut
to replace me, should my brain melt down while trying to figure out what
I actually believe this week, and the VP has to take over."? lol
--
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 06:51:35 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 7/24/2014 9:23 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 05:36:00 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:
>>
>>>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
>>
>> Well, that depends. If you're a Republican and do all the "Jesus is
>> Lord" stuff, then you can practically get away with murder and not have
>> to leave office.
>>
>> If you're a Democrat and you send a sext to someone, you are forced to
>> resign in disgrace.
>>
>> While both sides have examples that contradict, overwhelmingly, if
>> you're a Republican elected official and you get mired in a sex scandal
>> or something, you aren't forced to leave office.
>>
>> Jim
>>
> Gosh, of course not. As long as your diddling Jesus in the restrooms,
> along with whom ever else you had a scandal with, its all forgiven.
> Didn't you know this? lol
*snortlaugh*
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 07:00:22 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 7/25/2014 12:10 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the
>> general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what
>> he believes or what his church practices. I may not have liked him as
>> a candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's
>> not what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith.
>> If he had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his
>> faith be front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight.
>> He considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his
>> policy choices.
>>
> On that note - what the hell where his policies exactly, I never noted
> him actually pinning any down, really, unless, "I picked a Tea Party nut
> to replace me, should my brain melt down while trying to figure out what
> I actually believe this week, and the VP has to take over."? lol
Yeah, that was also a big problem with him - his stated policies and past
policy decisions didn't line up very well, and he was all over the board
on what he was for. Most of his campaigning was based on "I'm against
what Obama's doing".
Pretty glad the electorate didn't fall for *that*, even though I'm not
very happy with Obama's stand on intellectual property and privacy
issues. Right now, neither party is making me very happy.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 06:57:07 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 7/24/2014 9:19 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 04:48:34 -0400, Warp wrote:
>>
>>> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
>>> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would
>>> be shunned and discriminated against.
>>
>> Actually, a more accurate way to say that at the moment would be that
>> there are some places where it's OK to be an out Atheist.
>>
>> It's gotten better in the past few years, but, particularly in small
>> towns in the south, it can be extremely difficult to be an out Atheist.
>>
> Yeah, most of those places being the wrong religion, and questioning why
> some "public" event is opened with a prayer to the god of right wing
> evangelicalism, instead of just about anything else, will get you run
> out of town. These places only play lip service to the usual lie that
> Jews, Christians, and for some reason, Buddhists are all welcome (the
> three faiths most often quoted by idiots claiming they are "inclusive"),
> but everyone else will burn in hell. If you actually make a complaint
> while being the wrong one of these, or almost worse, one of those damn
> "liberal" Christians and you might as well be black, 50+ years ago, with
> a sheet factory down the street from you.
I find it particularly disturbing that SCOTUS thinks that it's OK to have
religious invocations at government functions - because *that* makes
everyone feel like the city/state/locality will treat them equally if
they're not Christian. Yup, uh-huh.
And unicorns exist. Really.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On 24/07/2014 11:09, James Holsenback wrote:
>
> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
> "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.
"25¢ a slice." in the next yard? ;-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 23/07/2014 12:37, James Holsenback wrote:
> Sad state of affairs ... don't you think?
I am sorry to hear about your troubles, brother.
Maybe if we took some time together to reflect on this and pray to the
Lord it would smooth your troubled life. If you were willing to accept
the LORD Leviathan into your life... :-)
Seriously, if you can't move away and don't want to join the throng of
"I'll say anything for a bit of peace" brigade. Then learn the gentle
art of prevaricating.
A few years ago when I was working in Nigeria. (A country that builds
more churches than hospitals.) A group of us from work were on a tour of
Port Harcourt one Sunday. When the guide came on the bus she looked
around and fixed her eyes on me and said.
"I hope you have all been to church today."
I replied, slapping my chest.
"This is my Church. I carry GOD in my heart."
Which flummoxed her and she did not mention religion gain.
If she had only known what I really thought. I would have ended up with
a Soweto necklace.
As the song says:
FTA. FTA. The long and the short and the tall.
;-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 25/07/14 21:53, Stephen wrote:
> A few years ago when I was working in Nigeria. (A country that builds
> more churches than hospitals.) A group of us from work were on a tour of
> Port Harcourt one Sunday. When the guide came on the bus she looked
> around and fixed her eyes on me and said.
> "I hope you have all been to church today."
> I replied, slapping my chest.
> "This is my Church. I carry GOD in my heart."
> Which flummoxed her and she did not mention religion gain
...now why does that not surprise me?
John (still grinning at the mental image)
--
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children
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On 25/07/2014 22:21, Doctor John wrote:
>> Which flummoxed her and she did not mention religion gain
> ...now why does that not surprise me?
>
> John (still grinning at the mental image)
It came out when I was trying to suppress the impulse to punch her in
the throat. ;-)
(Not true. I'm just a smart arse and my tongue will get me hung. Or so
my Grandmother said.)
Round about that time. The project secretary sent me an email with a
religious strip cartoon. Which said that I was going to HELL if I did
not mend my ways.
But strangely enough when I let it be known that I was Obeah (Juju).
Life got simpler and I became Uncle Stephen. o_O
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 25/07/14 22:52, Stephen wrote:
> But strangely enough when I let it be known that I was Obeah (Juju).
> Life got simpler and I became Uncle Stephen. o_O
>
>
John (sacrifices a black cockerel to Uncle Stephen)
--
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children
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On 25/07/2014 22:55, Doctor John wrote:
> On 25/07/14 22:52, Stephen wrote:
>> But strangely enough when I let it be known that I was Obeah (Juju).
>> Life got simpler and I became Uncle Stephen. o_O
>>
>>
>
> John (sacrifices a black cockerel to Uncle Stephen)
>
Goats! I prefer goats.
(There is more meat on them and I like goat curry.)
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 21:27:43 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 24/07/2014 11:09, James Holsenback wrote:
>>
>> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a
>> large "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.
>
> "25¢ a slice." in the next yard? ;-)
LOL
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Am 25.07.2014 18:47, schrieb Jim Henderson:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 07:00:22 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
>> On 7/25/2014 12:10 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the
>>> general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what
>>> he believes or what his church practices. I may not have liked him as
>>> a candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's
>>> not what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith.
>>> If he had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his
>>> faith be front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight.
>>> He considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his
>>> policy choices.
>>>
>> On that note - what the hell where his policies exactly, I never noted
>> him actually pinning any down, really, unless, "I picked a Tea Party nut
>> to replace me, should my brain melt down while trying to figure out what
>> I actually believe this week, and the VP has to take over."? lol
>
> Yeah, that was also a big problem with him - his stated policies and past
> policy decisions didn't line up very well, and he was all over the board
> on what he was for. Most of his campaigning was based on "I'm against
> what Obama's doing".
>
> Pretty glad the electorate didn't fall for *that*, even though I'm not
> very happy with Obama's stand on intellectual property and privacy
> issues. Right now, neither party is making me very happy.
I never got the hang of parties anyway... all the loud music and alcohol...
(strolls out the garden door with a soft drink)
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 21:53:54 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> (A country that builds more churches than hospitals.)
Arguably, that's the case in the US as well.
And the UK.
Go to Google maps and put in (for example) "Hospitals in London, United
Kingdom", and "Churches in London, United Kingdom".
Compare the number of dots on the map.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Am 26.07.2014 00:45, schrieb Jim Henderson:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 21:53:54 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> (A country that builds more churches than hospitals.)
>
> Arguably, that's the case in the US as well.
>
> And the UK.
Germany, too. (*)
Does this make sense? Let's see:
In 2011, Baden-Wuerttemberg had a population of about 10.5 million, and
285 hospitals with a total of 56910 beds and an average utilization of
76.8%; thus, it can be concluded that on average about 1 in 240 people
were in hospital at any given day. We can also conclude that an average
hospital had 200 beds.
If we presume that a pious person would attend church services regularly
at least on major holidays, such as Easter Sunday or Christmas, then it
would take just 0.4% of the population to be pious in order to require
about as many church seats as hospital beds.
(*) Actually, reading Stephen's posting more carefully: Maybe no.
Germany /has/ more churches than hospitals, but whether more /new/
churches are being built than hospitals is difficult to tell.
Statistical data from Baden-Wuerttemberg indicates that the number of
hospitals is actually declining (as people remain hospitalized for ever
shorter times), but I'll wager that the same goes for churches. Just
noticed a New Apostolic Church building having been torn down a few
weeks ago near where I live.
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On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 00:43:44 +0200, clipka wrote:
> Pretty glad the electorate didn't fall for *that*, even though I'm not
>> very happy with Obama's stand on intellectual property and privacy
>> issues. Right now, neither party is making me very happy.
>
> I never got the hang of parties anyway... all the loud music and
> alcohol...
>
> (strolls out the garden door with a soft drink)
That sounds like a good option. Though I don't have a garden door, I do
have a balcony door. And a soft drink. And a laptop. I could grab a
table and sit outside and work this afternoon. Hmmm.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 01:19:55 +0200, clipka wrote:
> Actually, reading Stephen's posting more carefully: Maybe no. Germany
> /has/ more churches than hospitals, but whether more /new/
> churches are being built than hospitals is difficult to tell.
Hmm, fair point.
I think right now in the Seattle area, though, there aren't any new
hospitals being built, but I'd be surprised if there weren't any new
churches being built.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the
> general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what he
> believes or what his church practices. I may not have liked him as a
> candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's not
> what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith. If he
> had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his faith be
> front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight. He
> considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his policy
> choices.
I really have to wonder if he did that honestly, or because he (or his
advisors) thought that it would be better to not openly discuss his
beliefs because it would drive voters away...
> But there's still no way I would have voted for him. But I do wish more
> candidates would say "you know what? My beliefs are not your business,
> they're mine." - and then left it at that, and let their actions rather
> than their beliefs (or perceptions about their beliefs) be what they were
> judged on by the electorate.
That would probably be the best, but then, perhaps people would vote for
the one candidate who praises God all the time?
--
- Warp
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On 26/07/2014 00:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 01:19:55 +0200, clipka wrote:
>
>> Actually, reading Stephen's posting more carefully: Maybe no. Germany
>> /has/ more churches than hospitals, but whether more /new/
>> churches are being built than hospitals is difficult to tell.
>
> Hmm, fair point.
>
> I think right now in the Seattle area, though, there aren't any new
> hospitals being built, but I'd be surprised if there weren't any new
> churches being built.
>
> Jim
>
As you know it was also a metaphor.
Churches, hospitals. Apples, oranges.
Hospitals need to be centralised to share the expensive machinery that
goes Beep!
Churches serve smaller communities, except for cathedrals and the like.
Religion is the pillar of a lot of peoples lives. And a big distraction.
IMO they have their priorities wrong.
In the UK the established churches are loosing influence with quite a
few buildings being de-sanctified and sold off. To become temples to
those other gods, food and drink. Hospitals are lurching from one crises
to the next. Almost as if it (NHS) is being decommissioned. And to be
sold off the the Temple of Mammon.
Bitter! Moi?
--
Regards
Stephen
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Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
> To become temples to those other gods, food and drink.
I don't know if you wrote that seriously or as sarcasm (your writing
style in this thread really is ambiguous, I must say), but in later
years I have become annoyed at the section of Christianity that uses
the term "god" as a derogatory term for people's hobbies or other
activities.
It's dismissive, disrespectful and derogatory. It's belittling people's
hobbies and, basically, putting one's own beliefs on a pedestal, above
other people's. It's presumptuous and self-righteous. It annoys me quite
a lot.
--
- Warp
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On 26-7-2014 0:05, Stephen wrote:
> On 25/07/2014 22:55, Doctor John wrote:
>> On 25/07/14 22:52, Stephen wrote:
>>> But strangely enough when I let it be known that I was Obeah (Juju).
>>> Life got simpler and I became Uncle Stephen. o_O
>>>
>>>
>>
>> John (sacrifices a black cockerel to Uncle Stephen)
>>
> Goats! I prefer goats.
> (There is more meat on them and I like goat curry.)
>
And so starts corruption... down the slippery road to hell.
Thomas
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On 26/07/2014 08:36, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> And so starts corruption... down the slippery road to hell.
A bit late for that. ;-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 26/07/2014 08:21, Warp wrote:
> Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
>> To become temples to those other gods, food and drink.
>
> I don't know if you wrote that seriously or as sarcasm (your writing
> style in this thread really is ambiguous, I must say),
Every now and again I will try to give extra meaning to a sentence.
It was a juxtaposition of religion and our state run health service. It
is the sort of thing that people who like English like, to do. I am sure
most peoples do it. Another clue is the capitalisation. God <> god.
I like Irony as well, much more than sarcasm. The line about Churches
and Hospitals was irony.
(Note: In the above sentences. Irony is capitalised thus personifying
her. Which itself is a hidden meaning going back to before Christianity.)
> but in later
> years I have become annoyed at the section of Christianity that uses
> the term "god" as a derogatory term for people's hobbies or other
> activities.
>
I just get annoyed at the ones who open their mouths.
> It's dismissive, disrespectful and derogatory. It's belittling people's
> hobbies and, basically, putting one's own beliefs on a pedestal, above
> other people's. It's presumptuous and self-righteous. It annoys me quite
> a lot.
>
Only if you let it annoy you, surely?
I'm not being dismissive. I don't think that you should let nigglers get
under your skin. It is a form of Juju that gives them a righteous feeling.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 26-7-2014 9:43, Stephen wrote:
> On 26/07/2014 08:36, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>> And so starts corruption... down the slippery road to hell.
>
> A bit late for that. ;-)
>
You had your curry then?
Thomas
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On 25/07/2014 11:45 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Go to Google maps and put in (for example) "Hospitals in London, United
> Kingdom", and "Churches in London, United Kingdom".
>
> Compare the number of dots on the map.
Surely this only indicates that we *have built* more churches than
hospitals, but than we *are building* more churches than hospitals...
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