On 07/24/2014 06:07 AM, Le_Forgeron wrote:
> On 24/07/2014 11:36, James Holsenback wrote:
>> On 07/24/2014 04:48 AM, Warp wrote:
>>> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
>>> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
>>> shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.
>>>
>>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>>
>>
>> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
>>
>> Me: Curious as to when I might expect some sort of decision.
>> Him: I've been buried with quoting a bunch of stuff with a new customer.
>> Hope to get back with you later this week.
>>
>> Silence for 10 days ...
>> Me: I'm hoping you've found a moment or two to think about taking me on,
>> so I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and ask .... When do I start!
>>
>> Nothing after 5 more days ...
>>
>> Without getting into gory details I /was/ actually willing to choke down
>> the bile and take one for my team (family) and accept the position if it
>> was offered. Thanks goodness my ex-ex wife can still read me like a book
>> and has let me off the hook
>
>  From my top-boss, speaking about the owner: when owner say "I will call
> you on that", it means there will be no call and the subject is not to
> be raised again.
>
> It's better once you got the sub-titles.
>

yep normally that would be my take as well ... i guess i was expecting 
more from one of my fellow "brothers in arms"

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Am 24.07.2014 10:48, schrieb Warp:
> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
> shunned and discriminated against. They would basically become outcasts.

As a matter of fact the US have a long-standing history of this, dating 
back even to British colonial times.

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Am 24.07.2014 12:09, schrieb James Holsenback:

> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
> "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.

I thought it was Virgin Mary who had done the delivering job... did I 
miss something? :-P

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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 04:48:34 -0400, Warp wrote:

> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
> shunned and discriminated against.

Actually, a more accurate way to say that at the moment would be that 
there are some places where it's OK to be an out Atheist.

It's gotten better in the past few years, but, particularly in small 
towns in the south, it can be extremely difficult to be an out Atheist.

Distrust of atheists is high enough that most people won't vote for a 
politician who says they're an atheist.  Hell, Barney Frank - the first 
openly gay US senator - came out as an atheist only *after* he retired.  
It was safer (for his career) for him to be out as gay than out as an 
atheist.

And he was one of the two senators from Massachusetts.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On 07/24/2014 10:36 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 24.07.2014 12:09, schrieb James Holsenback:
>
>> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
>> "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.
>
> I thought it was Virgin Mary who had done the delivering job... did I
> miss something? :-P
>

LOL ... blasphemer ;-)

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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 05:36:00 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:

>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>
>>
> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...

Well, that depends.  If you're a Republican and do all the "Jesus is 
Lord" stuff, then you can practically get away with murder and not have 
to leave office.

If you're a Democrat and you send a sext to someone, you are forced to 
resign in disgrace.

While both sides have examples that contradict, overwhelmingly, if you're 
a Republican elected official and you get mired in a sex scandal or 
something, you aren't forced to leave office.

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 06:09:46 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:

> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
> "God Delivers" sign in his front yard. Now he's a pleasant enough
> fellow,
> who has been going through a rather rough patch lately. He's never tired
> to sermonize but I often felt the urge to ask him ... how's that working
> out for ya!

The illogic of the belief is that when things DO improve, that's the 
point where God has come through for him.

I've got family who have been through terrible cancer, and they praise 
God for helping them get through it.

I would never, ever put someone in that position through having to reason 
through "if God was on my side, why the hell did I get cancer in the 
first place?" though.

Although I did ask a coworker once "If angels exist, were the all on 
vacation on 9/11?"  That provoked a very thoughtful discussion, 
ultimately he couldn't disagree with me.  (This was a coworker who I was 
- and still am - good friends with.)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:36:46 +0200, clipka wrote:

> Am 24.07.2014 12:09, schrieb James Holsenback:
> 
>> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a
>> large "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.
> 
> I thought it was Virgin Mary who had done the delivering job... did I
> miss something? :-P

LOL



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Distrust of atheists is high enough that most people won't vote for a 
> politician who says they're an atheist.  Hell, Barney Frank - the first 
> openly gay US senator - came out as an atheist only *after* he retired.  
> It was safer (for his career) for him to be out as gay than out as an 
> atheist.

Something like 20 or 30 years ago it was basically a political suicide
in the United States to openly declare your religion, because that would
have driven away at least half of your voters.

"Oh, he's a Catholic. Those aren't even real Christians! I'm certainly
not voting for him!"

"Oh, he's a Pentecostal. Those are crazy cultists! I'm not voting for him!"

"Oh, he's a Mormon..."

At some point this got changed and reverse. Nowadays it's a political
suicide to *not* declare your religion. You can be even a Mormon and
still have a good chance at precidency. Even Christians who completely
abhor mormonism (with its teachings about multiple gods, how people
become gods, baptizing for the dead, temple rituals etc.) will actually
try to find excuses and rationalize how it's not that bad. At least they
believe in God... (or at least a slightly similar version of God than
the more traditional one. Let's just pretend that mormonism doesn't
teach that God has a wife etc...)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 01:28:54 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> Distrust of atheists is high enough that most people won't vote for a
>> politician who says they're an atheist.  Hell, Barney Frank - the first
>> openly gay US senator - came out as an atheist only *after* he retired.
>> It was safer (for his career) for him to be out as gay than out as an
>> atheist.
> 
> Something like 20 or 30 years ago it was basically a political suicide
> in the United States to openly declare your religion, because that would
> have driven away at least half of your voters.

Well, 20-30 years ago, basically, you couldn't say you were Catholic, 
because the problem there was not that the candidate isn't a "real" 
Christian, but rather the impression was that given a choice between 
deciding on a course of action that was good for the country or doing 
what the Pope said, it was assumed that the President would be answerable 
to the Pope, and that would make the US a de-facto subject of the Vatican.

> "Oh, he's a Catholic. Those aren't even real Christians! I'm certainly
> not voting for him!"
> 
> "Oh, he's a Pentecostal. Those are crazy cultists! I'm not voting for
> him!"

Protestantism would be the safest form of Christianity for a politician 
at those times, and it would just be assumed to be the case.

> "Oh, he's a Mormon..."
> 
> At some point this got changed and reverse. Nowadays it's a political
> suicide to *not* declare your religion. You can be even a Mormon and
> still have a good chance at precidency. 

Romney never really had a good chance at being the president.  That 
entire election was nothing more than a fiasco for the GOP.

> Even Christians who completely
> abhor mormonism (with its teachings about multiple gods, how people
> become gods, baptizing for the dead, temple rituals etc.) will actually
> try to find excuses and rationalize how it's not that bad. At least they
> believe in God... (or at least a slightly similar version of God than
> the more traditional one. Let's just pretend that mormonism doesn't
> teach that God has a wife etc...)

Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the 
general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what he 
believes or what his church practices.  I may not have liked him as a 
candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's not 
what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith.  If he 
had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his faith be 
front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight.  He 
considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his policy 
choices.

But there's still no way I would have voted for him.  But I do wish more 
candidates would say "you know what?  My beliefs are not your business, 
they're mine." - and then left it at that, and let their actions rather 
than their beliefs (or perceptions about their beliefs) be what they were 
judged on by the electorate.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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