So, some years ago I was a member of Mensa and I would guess that a
large majority of this forum would also qualify (top 2% of the population).
For no apparent reason I have decided to rejoin. I left the society
purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
their own fundaments.
Am I insane? Or is it because I wish to revive the SIG called Thick As A
Brick?

John (thinking about loud music and strong liquor)
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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On 1/13/2014 7:14 PM, Doctor John wrote:
> So, some years ago I was a member of Mensa and I would guess that a
> large majority of this forum would also qualify (top 2% of the population).
> For no apparent reason I have decided to rejoin. I left the society
> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
> their own fundaments.
> Am I insane? Or is it because I wish to revive the SIG called Thick As A
> Brick?
>
> John (thinking about loud music and strong liquor)
>
Uh.. Not insane, but.. maybe a bit of a fool for thinking that an 
organization which thinks passing a lot of tests, which are the function 
equivalent of being very good at, if not obsessed with, "Brain Games", 
are part of any top 2% of the population. lol I am reminded of a song 
from Leslie Fish every time I hear about the group, "Better Than Who": 
http://lyrics.wikia.com/Leslie_Fish:Better_Than_Who

Somehow.. Being able to tell which one of a set of arbitrary patterns is 
"next in sequence", doesn't seem to me to be... *anywhere* on the list. 
lol And, yeah, I have seen the sort of things they test for. You can 
"learn" to be good at them, and still be a.. well, idiot with your nose 
stuck up your own fundament. - From someone that could probably pass 
their silly test, or get dang close, but would, then, use the 
certificate, or what ever you get, to line the cat box.

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On 14/01/14 03:53, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 1/13/2014 7:14 PM, Doctor John wrote:
>> Am I insane? Or is it because I wish to revive the SIG called Thick As A
>> Brick?
>>
>> John (thinking about loud music and strong liquor)
>>
> Uh.. Not insane, but.. maybe a bit of a fool for thinking that an
> organization which thinks passing a lot of tests, which are the function
> equivalent of being very good at, if not obsessed with, "Brain Games",
> are part of any top 2% of the population. lol I am reminded of a song
> from Leslie Fish every time I hear about the group, "Better Than Who":
> http://lyrics.wikia.com/Leslie_Fish:Better_Than_Who
> 
> Somehow.. Being able to tell which one of a set of arbitrary patterns is
> "next in sequence", doesn't seem to me to be... *anywhere* on the list.
> lol And, yeah, I have seen the sort of things they test for. You can
> "learn" to be good at them, and still be a.. well, idiot with your nose
> stuck up your own fundament. - From someone that could probably pass
> their silly test, or get dang close, but would, then, use the
> certificate, or what ever you get, to line the cat box.

I think you may have missed the comment about Thick As A Brick. (FYI an
SIG is a special interest group and TAAB was dedicated to showing the
whole organisation up for the bunch of idiots it was)

John (IQ 70.5 and falling)
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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Doctor John <j.g### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> So, some years ago I was a member of Mensa and I would guess that a
> large majority of this forum would also qualify (top 2% of the population).
> For no apparent reason I have decided to rejoin. I left the society
> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
> their own fundaments.
> Am I insane? Or is it because I wish to revive the SIG called Thick As A
> Brick?

Intelligence is such a random thing...

One would think that the most super-intelligent people would end up
in professions like a theoretical astrophycisist who routinely
calculates what happens when two rotating black holes collide...
But no. Last I heard, the number 1 Mensa member in Finland is...
a postman. Not like a high-ranking director or anything. Just a
regular postman, one that goes from door to door distributing mail.

Of course it's a bit insensitive to talk about people with low
intelligence, but if we approach the subject on a completely pragmatic
level, there are certain things that such people are simply physically
unable to do. Their brain just doesn't let itself to perform certain
complex feats (such as solving the field equations of general relativity
for a certain set of parameters.)

However, having high intelligence doesn't automatically mean you are
apt for all tasks either. In fact, many of the most intelligent people
may be really bad at many things, and lack in many areas of life.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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> One would think that the most super-intelligent people would end up
> in professions like a theoretical astrophycisist who routinely
> calculates what happens when two rotating black holes collide...
> But no. Last I heard, the number 1 Mensa member in Finland is...
> a postman. Not like a high-ranking director or anything. Just a
> regular postman, one that goes from door to door distributing mail.

Or perhaps, most super intelligent people are in jobs that require them 
to use it, just that outside of work they feel no need or can't be 
bothered to things like Mensa?

> However, having high intelligence doesn't automatically mean you are
> apt for all tasks either. In fact, many of the most intelligent people
> may be really bad at many things, and lack in many areas of life.

If you're intelligent at something, doesn't that just mean you've spent 
more time than most other people studying that something? By definition 
then you've had less time to study other things - like socialising and 
getting a dress sense :-)

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On 14/01/2014 02:14 AM, Doctor John wrote:
> I left the society
> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
> their own fundaments.

Yes... that is the impression I get about Mensa too. "Ooo, let's found a 
club that only really smart people can join. Then we can all stand 
around and rejoice in how clever we are..."

No thanks.

Post a reply to this message

On 14/01/14 21:09, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 14/01/2014 02:14 AM, Doctor John wrote:
>> I left the society
>> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
>> their own fundaments.
> 
> Yes... that is the impression I get about Mensa too. "Ooo, let's found a
> club that only really smart people can join. Then we can all stand
> around and rejoice in how clever we are..."
> 
> No thanks.

However, and this not aimed at you, Andrew, it never ceases to amaze me
how many people have a knee-jerk reaction to the subject of intelligence.

If you can run 10,000 metres in under 27 minutes, you are a hero. If you
can consistently knock a small white ball into a hole a few hundred
metres distant, you are a hero and get paid $SILLYNUM for it. If you can
string more than two words together, have a body like a god/dess and are
willing to stand in front of a camera for interminable takes, everybody
wants to have your babies. I also note that good athletes join athletics
clubs, good soccer players join soccer clubs and Povray users eventually
end up on news.povray.*. Where's the difference?

Human beings are social animals; they will tend to congregate in groups
that have similar tastes and talents to their own. (That last sentence
is not grammatically correct, but you know what I mean.) Therefore, it
is not surprising that those with high IQs will tend to cluster together
with their IQ being the marker for potential inclusion in the group.

Finally, scott, high IQ does _not_ equate to asocial behaviour and/or
poor dress sense. Your perception is skewed by the popular
misconception, usually starting at school, that being intelligent makes
you a nerd. If enough people tell you that you're a freak, you will
eventually believe it and give up on the socially-accepted parameters of
attractiveness - dressing fashionably, sharing in-jokes, giving a sh*t
about your appearance.

I was lucky. Firstly, my family were all above-average in intelligence;
that gave me a good support group to fall back on. Secondly, we are all
reasonably good-looking and good at sports; I am not the tallest or most
muscular in my family, but if you ever had the misfortune of facing me
on a rugby field, you would remember it. And finally I, my siblings and
my father have all had more than our fair share of partners in our
lifetimes. Whether that makes me or them immoral is not relevant to the
argument. What it does do is to indicate that the opposite (or same,
whatever turns you on) sex does not find my family of geniuses unattractive.

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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On 1/14/2014 3:10 PM, Doctor John wrote:
> On 14/01/14 21:09, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> On 14/01/2014 02:14 AM, Doctor John wrote:
>>> I left the society
>>> purely because I found most members to have their noses stuck firmly up
>>> their own fundaments.
>>
>> Yes... that is the impression I get about Mensa too. "Ooo, let's found a
>> club that only really smart people can join. Then we can all stand
>> around and rejoice in how clever we are..."
>>
>> No thanks.
>
> However, and this not aimed at you, Andrew, it never ceases to amaze me
> how many people have a knee-jerk reaction to the subject of intelligence.
>
> If you can run 10,000 metres in under 27 minutes, you are a hero. If you
> can consistently knock a small white ball into a hole a few hundred
> metres distant, you are a hero and get paid $SILLYNUM for it. If you can
> string more than two words together, have a body like a god/dess and are
> willing to stand in front of a camera for interminable takes, everybody
> wants to have your babies. I also note that good athletes join athletics
> clubs, good soccer players join soccer clubs and Povray users eventually
> end up on news.povray.*. Where's the difference?
>
Hmm. The fact that the people that tend to be in Mensa have more in 
common with Rainman, than Superman? lol Well, ok, not a nice thing to 
say, but its like a social club for billionaires. They are there not 
because they are actually smarter than everyone around them, but because 
they refuse to see how they got their, and being arrogant, assume it was 
due to "talent", and not happenstance and luck. In this case, the 
happenstance that led them to find puzzles, before golf clubs, and 
people willing to let them pursue it, and the luck of figuring out the 
sorts of tricks needed to solve them. The former, is much rarer than the 
latter, which most people can learn, if they want to waste a lot of time 
doing it.

Its all well and good to have a club, but.. Mensa is a bit like a 
"gentleman's club", it comes with the flawed assumption that they are 
there because they are inherently better, and the ones not in the club, 
thus, have huge, substantial, mental flaws. Unfortunately, they do allow 
women in, so its.. kind of hard to walk up to the door, and embarrass 
them, by showing them that they are not as good at the things they 
praise themselves for as they imagine they are. They are, as you say, 
like a golf club, or a sports club, etc., where everyone there is there 
because they got good at something which, frankly, when it comes to 
solving real problems (which don't involve sports stadiums, golf clubs, 
or obscure logic puzzles), is objectively useless.

To me, its a bit like having like... a certificate of expertise for 
something like computer networks. It will get you in the door of places 
where the people like certificates more than actual skill, but, to 
actual solve problems, the only credentials that **might** count, is 
having read a lot of 2600 magazine and attended DefCon conferences. Why? 
Because the guy with only the Cert only knows how to press all the 
buttons, and mash things together "by the book", but the other buy, 
actually knows how, and why, the damn thing actually works, and thus, 
how to make it work, if its not a nice, neat, clear, and simple problem, 
which you can look up in the "official" certification manual. Mensa is a 
label, in other words, which bloody fools value, but anyone that knows 
what they are doing would chalk up as, "Ah, one of those.. lets hope 
they actually know how to F-ing do something though..." lol

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On 14/01/14 22:45, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Hmm. The fact that the people that tend to be in Mensa have more in
> common with Rainman, than Superman? lol Well, ok, not a nice thing to
> say, but its like a social club for billionaires. They are there not
> because they are actually smarter than everyone around them, but because
> they refuse to see how they got their, and being arrogant, assume it was
> due to "talent", and not happenstance and luck. In this case, the

I think I addressed this point later. Yes, I agree that the genes (or
whatever, this is not a nature vs nurture debate) are randomly scattered
around the population. Your assumption, however, that the possessors of
those genes are arrogant is, at best, naive and at the other end verges
on the downright insulting. Look at the average sports star; his/her
body language screams the info 'I am better than you'.

> and the luck of figuring out the
> sorts of tricks needed to solve them. The former, is much rarer than the
> latter, which most people can learn, if they want to waste a lot of time
> doing it.
> 

Patrick, I give you a challenge. You have one year to learn the
'tricks'. We will then face up in a neutral environment and take the
tests. If I win, you publicly apologise and if you win, I do the same. Deal?

> Its all well and good to have a club, but.. Mensa is a bit like a
> "gentleman's club", it comes with the flawed assumption that they are
> there because they are inherently better, and the ones not in the club,
> thus, have huge, substantial, mental flaws.

So, you've been a member, have you? Please don't make assumptions based
on zero experience.
> 
> To me, its a bit like having like... a certificate of expertise for
> something like computer networks. It will get you in the door of places
> where the people like certificates more than actual skill, but, to
> actual solve problems, the only credentials that **might** count, is
> having read a lot of 2600 magazine and attended DefCon conferences. Why?
> Because the guy with only the Cert only knows how to press all the
> buttons, and mash things together "by the book", but the other buy,
> actually knows how, and why, the damn thing actually works, and thus,
> how to make it work, if its not a nice, neat, clear, and simple problem,
> which you can look up in the "official" certification manual. Mensa is a
> label, in other words, which bloody fools value, but anyone that knows
> what they are doing would chalk up as, "Ah, one of those.. lets hope
> they actually know how to F-ing do something though..." lol
> 

...and how are we to judge ability then? A BA, MA or even PhD (or other
qualifications) certificate says certain things about you. Apply for a
job through me with one of those in your hand and I would be willing to
give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I can't be arsed to
prove it" then you won't even get through the front door.

John (still smiling but feeling the strain)
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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Well said, John.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Especially here in the 
US, and as a smarter person in school growing up, I was ridiculed, 
teased, and bullied (though my "bullying" wasn't anywhere near what kids 
these days seem to be subjected to).

All because I was smart, somewhat socially awkward, and "gifted" (gawd, I 
*hate* that term) generally and at playing the violin.

But people who are good at bashing other people's heads in playing 
football, or dunking a ball through a hoop with a net - they're "heroes".

Meanwhile, we wonder (at least here in the US) why education is failing.

I guess it's because we don't believe in God hard enough.  Yeah, that 
must be it - it certainly can't be because STEM education standards 
absolutely suck in a lot of the US.  It couldn't possibly have to do with 
anything about believing that "creationism" is science and "evolution" is 
a myth.  Couldn't f*cking have anything to do with that.

Kinda a hot button for me, and I'm overtired and a bit stressed.  Sorry, 
carry on. ;)

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:40:46 +0000, Doctor John wrote:

> So, you've been a member, have you? Please don't make assumptions based
> on zero experience.

One might even say it's *ahem* arrogant to make such assumptions, 
wouldn't they?

Like the charge that all members of Mensa are arrogant.  I know a few 
myself, and at least the ones I know are pretty decent people.

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On 15/01/14 01:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Well said, John.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Especially here in the 
> US, and as a smarter person in school growing up, I was ridiculed, 
> teased, and bullied (though my "bullying" wasn't anywhere near what kids 
> these days seem to be subjected to).
> 

I feel for the younger you. I was lucky in being strong enough to take
care of myself. There are one or two people out there who will still
remember the effect of a knee in the groin - not a dignified response,
but effective just the same.

> All because I was smart, somewhat socially awkward, and "gifted" (gawd, I 
> *hate* that term) generally and at playing the violin.
> 

At last! Someone else who played the violin. Do you still play or did
you do as I did and give up because of the bullying? I took up the
guitar instead - gave me more street-cred.

> Meanwhile, we wonder (at least here in the US) why education is failing.
> 
> I guess it's because we don't believe in God hard enough.  Yeah, that 
> must be it - it certainly can't be because STEM education standards 
> absolutely suck in a lot of the US.  It couldn't possibly have to do with 
> anything about believing that "creationism" is science and "evolution" is 
> a myth.  Couldn't f*cking have anything to do with that.
> 

We seem to be getting a similar mindset over here in UK.

> Kinda a hot button for me, and I'm overtired and a bit stressed.  Sorry, 
> carry on. ;)

No need to apologise. I am aware of (some of) the complexities in your life.

John (raising a cup of coffee in Jim's direction)
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Unfortunately, they do allow
> women in

Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of 
people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop 
and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just 
possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people 
who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.

--Sherry Shaw

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On 15/01/14 05:48, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Unfortunately, they do allow
>> women in
> 
> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.

Hi, Sherry. Long time, no see.
Unfortunately, there appear to be a few unreconstructed chauvinists on
the group atm.
FWIW my first two bosses in the real world were women and they taught me
more than the others combined

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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Hi, John.  Nice to encounter a friendly voice (so to speak) this dark 
and dreary night.

--Sherry Shaw

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On 15/01/2014 5:48 AM, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Unfortunately, they do allow
>> women in
>
> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.
>
Hi Sherry, your annual visit? Good to see you.

I don't think Patrick meant that the way you are taking it. I read it 
as, because they do let (and the word "let" is a signifier) women in. 
You can't criticise them for not letting women in. If you see what I mean?

Hmm! Thinks before posting.

That last sentence is more about my inability to express than your 
ability [as a woman {OMG (in these hallowed halls, what ever next?)} ;-) 
] to understand.

So don't bother your pretty little head about it. :-D
<Ducks, runs and hides behind Regan's petticoats.>

Love to your dog(s)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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> Finally, scott, high IQ does _not_ equate to asocial behaviour and/or
> poor dress sense.

You must admit there is at least a bit of a correlation though, 
especially with intelligence in maths/proper science subjects?

> Your perception is skewed by the popular
> misconception, usually starting at school, that being intelligent makes
> you a nerd.

It's mainly by meeting people throughout university and in the 
workplace. At school we had to wear uniforms so everyone looked the same 
and dress sense didn't come in to it. At university the math/engineering 
students dressed differently, most times you could spot one just by 
looks, heck still now when watching Universtiy Challenge you can usually 
spot them before they open their mouth. Also you only have to look at 
the Christmas dinner at my old company (where almost all non-admin staff 
had a PhD or an Oxbridge degree in science) and note the dress sense, 
compared to where I am now (a manufacturing company) - the difference is 
very obvious.

> I was lucky. Firstly, my family were all above-average in intelligence;
> that gave me a good support group to fall back on.

I was lucky, my dad brought me home a BBC B from work before I started 
school, I was far more interested in writing programs than going out and 
playing with friends. The most annoying thing was being right in the 
middle of some complex piece of coding and my mum would force me to "get 
outside" and go and play.

BTW I only have a bit of dress sense now because my gf forces it onto me :-)

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On 14/01/2014 11:40 PM, Doctor John wrote:
> ....and how are we to judge ability then? A BA, MA or even PhD (or other
> qualifications) certificate says certain things about you.


In the most part it says that you can pass academic exams. And have the 
wherewithal not to earn, in your young adult years.

> Apply for a
> job through me with one of those in your hand and I would be willing to
> give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I can't be arsed to
> prove it"

Sad really that, that attitude still exists.
You don't find it in barrow boys who make good.

> then you won't even get through the front door.
>

But there is generally a back door for the tradesmen.

> John (still smiling but feeling the strain)

Keep your pecker up, old chap. It is always darkest before the dawn.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

> Well said, John.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Especially here in the
> US, and as a smarter person in school growing up, I was ridiculed,
> teased, and bullied (though my "bullying" wasn't anywhere near what kids
> these days seem to be subjected to).
>
> All because I was smart, somewhat socially awkward, and "gifted" (gawd, I
> *hate* that term) generally and at playing the violin.
>
> But people who are good at bashing other people's heads in playing
> football, or dunking a ball through a hoop with a net - they're "heroes".
>
> Meanwhile, we wonder (at least here in the US) why education is failing.

The problem is, and it's the same in the UK, it's "cool" to be dumb, or 
at least appear to be dumb. For what I've heard it's not so much like 
that in Asian countries though. I don't know how you would go about 
changing it, perhaps separate out by ability at a much earlier age?

Post a reply to this message

On 14/01/2014 5:02 PM, scott wrote:
> If you're intelligent at something

Can you be, intelligent at something?

And someone please explain to me, what IQ is?

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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>> If you're intelligent at something
>
> Can you be, intelligent at something?

I'm certainly not very intelligent at wording things very well...

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/2014 10:25 AM, scott wrote:
>>> If you're intelligent at something
>>
>> Can you be, intelligent at something?
>
> I'm certainly not very intelligent at wording things very well...

LOL Me too.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Am 15.01.2014 09:58, schrieb Stephen:
> On 14/01/2014 5:02 PM, scott wrote:
>> If you're intelligent at something
>
> Can you be, intelligent at something?
>
> And someone please explain to me, what IQ is?

IQ is a quantification of your intelligence in comparison to the average 
person of your age.

Intelligence is the fitness to perform well in a so-called intelligence 
test.

Post a reply to this message

Am 14.01.2014 23:10, schrieb Doctor John:

> However, and this not aimed at you, Andrew, it never ceases to amaze me
> how many people have a knee-jerk reaction to the subject of intelligence.
>
> If you can run 10,000 metres in under 27 minutes, you are a hero. If you
> can consistently knock a small white ball into a hole a few hundred
> metres distant, you are a hero and get paid $SILLYNUM for it. If you can
> string more than two words together, have a body like a god/dess and are
> willing to stand in front of a camera for interminable takes, everybody
> wants to have your babies. I also note that good athletes join athletics
> clubs, good soccer players join soccer clubs and Povray users eventually
> end up on news.povray.*. Where's the difference?

Interestingly, in Einstein's days there apparently wasn't. He was a kind 
of pop icon of his time.

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On 15-1-2014 9:39, Stephen wrote:
> On 15/01/2014 5:48 AM, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>> Unfortunately, they do allow
>>> women in
>>
>> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
>> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
>> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
>> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
>> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.
>>
> Hi Sherry, your annual visit? Good to see you.
>
> I don't think Patrick meant that the way you are taking it. I read it
> as, because they do let (and the word "let" is a signifier) women in.
> You can't criticise them for not letting women in. If you see what I mean?
>
> Hmm! Thinks before posting.
>
> That last sentence is more about my inability to express than your
> ability [as a woman {OMG (in these hallowed halls, what ever next?)} ;-)
> ] to understand.

Stephen, please, I know we don't have many women visitors here, but that 
is no reason to start to babble incoherently when one turns up.

[looking aside] Oh hi Sherry, good to see you again. I am assuming that 
my calendar starting to bleep your name today is just a coincidence that 
we won't have to look into further.


-- 
Everytime the IT department forbids something that a researcher deems
necessary for her work there will be another hole in the firewall.

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On 1/14/2014 4:40 PM, Doctor John wrote:
> Patrick, I give you a challenge. You have one year to learn the
> 'tricks'. We will then face up in a neutral environment and take the
> tests. If I win, you publicly apologise and if you win, I do the same. Deal?
>
Uh, no thanks. Really not interested. Mind... in 8th grade they had to 
send off for college levels tests to determine what my skill levels 
where (which where screwing up their, "we wedge everyone into the same 
box, then wonder why some of them get bored", theory of education, and 
my parents still won't tell me what the tests said. Not sure why, today 
it would just be information, but.. I suppose, back then my attitude 
tended to be that everyone else around me was a bloody idiot.

>> Its all well and good to have a club, but.. Mensa is a bit like a
>> "gentleman's club", it comes with the flawed assumption that they are
>> there because they are inherently better, and the ones not in the club,
>> thus, have huge, substantial, mental flaws.
>
> So, you've been a member, have you? Please don't make assumptions based
> on zero experience.
No, I just know how people act when they isolated themselves from the 
rest of society based on some attribute, *especially* if the attribute 
is something they can stand around with medals, rewards, trophies, or 
an, sometimes, inappropriate sense of being better and privileged.

> ...and how are we to judge ability then? A BA, MA or even PhD (or other
> qualifications) certificate says certain things about you. Apply for a
> job through me with one of those in your hand and I would be willing to
> give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I can't be arsed to
> prove it" then you won't even get through the front door.
>
Except, those things prove you worked at them, and presumably, achieved 
something. Being in Mensa.. means you passed a test, and then... maybe 
didn't do anything at all after. Mind, this may only be true of a small 
percentage, but.. its still not a sign of achievement, its being picked 
for the team, then, some of them just sit the bench, and gloat at being 
on the team.

Post a reply to this message

On 1/14/2014 10:48 PM, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Unfortunately, they do allow
>> women in
>
> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.
>
> --Sherry Shaw
>
>
This was intended to be sarcastic - as in, unlike gentleman's clubs, 
they don't exclude people based on sex, or get flustered, when they turn 
out to have brains.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:56:10 +0000, Stephen wrote:

>> Apply for a job through me with one of those in your hand and I would
>> be willing to give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I
>> can't be arsed to prove it"
> 
> Sad really that, that attitude still exists.

Boy, does it.  3 years, still looking for a full-time position because I 
don't have that damned piece of paper.

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 05:08:27 +0000, Doctor John wrote:

> On 15/01/14 01:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Well said, John.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Especially here in
>> the US, and as a smarter person in school growing up, I was ridiculed,
>> teased, and bullied (though my "bullying" wasn't anywhere near what
>> kids these days seem to be subjected to).
>> 
>> 
> I feel for the younger you. I was lucky in being strong enough to take
> care of myself. There are one or two people out there who will still
> remember the effect of a knee in the groin - not a dignified response,
> but effective just the same.

I was never quite brave (?) enough to try something like that.  There 
were a couple of kids on the football team (well, one in particular that 
I remember well) who were really good to me, but mostly I just didn't 
make friends easily because I was as I described.

>> All because I was smart, somewhat socially awkward, and "gifted" (gawd,
>> I *hate* that term) generally and at playing the violin.
>> 
>> 
> At last! Someone else who played the violin. Do you still play or did
> you do as I did and give up because of the bullying? I took up the
> guitar instead - gave me more street-cred.

I didn't give it up because of the bullying - I was actually pretty good 
(though I do say so myself).  I still have it, but I need to have some 
work done on it before I can play it again - a repair gone bad several 
years ago left the sound post stuck to the top face of the instrument, 
and it's got a really bad wolf on the E string (the open E, at that).

I haven't played in years, though, because of that.  One of our neighbors 
is a violin maker, even, but he said it'd cost about $400 to get it 
fixed, because he'd have to take the front off the instrument to fix it.

>> Meanwhile, we wonder (at least here in the US) why education is
>> failing.
>> 
>> I guess it's because we don't believe in God hard enough.  Yeah, that
>> must be it - it certainly can't be because STEM education standards
>> absolutely suck in a lot of the US.  It couldn't possibly have to do
>> with anything about believing that "creationism" is science and
>> "evolution" is a myth.  Couldn't f*cking have anything to do with that.
>> 
>> 
> We seem to be getting a similar mindset over here in UK.

Heh, I don't think you've got that disease to the extent we do in some 
parts of the US (Texas, I'm looking at you.  Mostly because Texas has 
enough pull that the Texas Board of Education ends up picking what goes 
in curriculum across the country).

>> Kinda a hot button for me, and I'm overtired and a bit stressed. 
>> Sorry, carry on. ;)
> 
> No need to apologise. I am aware of (some of) the complexities in your
> life.
> 
> John (raising a cup of coffee in Jim's direction)

Thanks, that helps.  Oooh, coffee. :)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:58:33 +0000, scott wrote:

>> Well said, John.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Especially here in
>> the US, and as a smarter person in school growing up, I was ridiculed,
>> teased, and bullied (though my "bullying" wasn't anywhere near what
>> kids these days seem to be subjected to).
>>
>> All because I was smart, somewhat socially awkward, and "gifted" (gawd,
>> I *hate* that term) generally and at playing the violin.
>>
>> But people who are good at bashing other people's heads in playing
>> football, or dunking a ball through a hoop with a net - they're
>> "heroes".
>>
>> Meanwhile, we wonder (at least here in the US) why education is
>> failing.
> 
> The problem is, and it's the same in the UK, it's "cool" to be dumb, or
> at least appear to be dumb. For what I've heard it's not so much like
> that in Asian countries though. I don't know how you would go about
> changing it, perhaps separate out by ability at a much earlier age?

In the US, all you have to do is look at politicians to see how cool it 
is to be dumb.  Being dumb gets you money and power.  Being smart?  Not 
so much, at least in politics (though clearly there are some *very* 
wealthy people over here who have a fair amount of brains).

But for popularity, one need look no further than, say, Sarah Palin (or 
pretty much any Fox News personality) to see that dumb/ignorant makes you 
popular.  Some of the personalities on Fox News are *highly* educated, 
but they say stupid things like "Santa is white.  That's just the way it 
is.  And so was Jesus" because ignorance plays to the masses.

Which results in people in the general population wanting things like 
"Government out of my Medicare" (Medicare is a government program. m-/ )

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> If you're intelligent at something, doesn't that just mean you've spent 
> more time than most other people studying that something?

I think you are confusing intelligence with experience and/or knowledge.

You can become good or knowledgeable about something, that that's not
what's usually meant by "intelligent". Intelligence is more like your
inborn talent at performing certain deductive or creative tasks.

You can certainly train your deductive skills, but people with a
higher intelligence often find it easier and become more proficient
at it.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/2014 6:42 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:56:10 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>>> Apply for a job through me with one of those in your hand and I would
>>> be willing to give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I
>>> can't be arsed to prove it"
>>
>> Sad really that, that attitude still exists.
>
> Boy, does it.  3 years, still looking for a full-time position because I
> don't have that damned piece of paper.
>

It is getting more prevalent here than it was when I was younger.
Fortunately, there is still the "proven track record" and "industrial 
experience" routes that allows my CV to get past the hurdles. After the 
Y2K slump I was desperate to get a permanent job but was never able to. 
Now I frequently get asked by agencies if I would consider one. I am not 
tempted to do the same work for lesser money and without the security 
permies had years ago. It is quite common for SAP consultants to be made 
redundant if their company cannot find them a new position within six 
months of finishing their last assignment.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Doctor John <j.g### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Where's the difference?

I suppose that people perceive the difference between a sports club
and Mensa in that you usually join a sports club because it benefits
and helps with your hobby, ie. there are practical benefits in joining,
while joining Mensa is (perceived by most people as) just a badge of
honor which you can tout about, with no useful or practical purpose
other than bragging.

(And let me emphasize that's not what I think. It's just how most
people perceive it.)

Also, feeling inferior in mental capacity is a much more touchy
subject than feeling inferior eg. in soccer or throwing a javelin.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/2014 5:15 PM, andrel wrote:
> Stephen, please, I know we don't have many women visitors here, but that
> is no reason to start to babble incoherently when one turns up.

I tell you what, Andrel. If Sherry does not see the humour in my 
writing. I will apologise unreservedly.
As for babbling, if you can cure the habit of lifetime. I am all ears.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:50:58 +0200, Doctor John <j.g### [at] gmailcom>  
wrote:

> On 15/01/14 05:48, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:

>> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
>> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
>> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
>> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
>> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.
>
> Hi, Sherry. Long time, no see.
> Unfortunately, there appear to be a few unreconstructed chauvinists on
> the group atm.

I think Gail left this group for the same reason...

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:50:53 +0200, clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:

> Am 14.01.2014 23:10, schrieb Doctor John:

> Interestingly, in Einstein's days there apparently wasn't. He was a kind  
> of pop icon of his time.
>
..even though he stopped in the middle of the road when the "Don't Walk"  
light lit up :)

I think it was his wild hair that made him cool ;)

.. and his personality of course.

I think not many people liked Nikola Tesla back then. A lot more "nerds"  
like him now.

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

Post a reply to this message

>> And someone please explain to me, what IQ is?
>
> IQ is a quantification of your intelligence in comparison to the average
> person of your age.

It is therefore fundamentally dependant on whatever the designer 
considers to be the "average person".

Also, I gather there are IQ systems with different standard deviation 
calibrations, and a score on one scale is not directly comparable with 
one on another scale.

Then again, whoever said intelligence was normally distributed?

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/2014 08:58 AM, scott wrote:
> The problem is, and it's the same in the UK, it's "cool" to be dumb, or
> at least appear to be dumb.

This seems to be pretty much the root of it all.

You know, there *was* a time when great mathematicians, engineers, 
scientists and so forth were like revered deities. What the heck happened??

> I don't know how you would go about
> changing it, perhaps separate out by ability at a much earlier age?

The only thing I can think of is that if somebody does well at school, 
people hate them out of jealousy - and there's where this "cool to be 
dumb" crap comes from. If that's the psychology behind this, then more 
separation would just make the problem worse...

The actual solution? I have no idea.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:11:31 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 15/01/2014 6:42 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:56:10 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>>> Apply for a job through me with one of those in your hand and I would
>>>> be willing to give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I
>>>> can't be arsed to prove it"
>>>
>>> Sad really that, that attitude still exists.
>>
>> Boy, does it.  3 years, still looking for a full-time position because
>> I don't have that damned piece of paper.
>>
>>
> It is getting more prevalent here than it was when I was younger.
> Fortunately, there is still the "proven track record" and "industrial
> experience" routes that allows my CV to get past the hurdles. After the
> Y2K slump I was desperate to get a permanent job but was never able to.
> Now I frequently get asked by agencies if I would consider one. I am not
> tempted to do the same work for lesser money and without the security
> permies had years ago. It is quite common for SAP consultants to be made
> redundant if their company cannot find them a new position within six
> months of finishing their last assignment.

The challenge here, especially with larger companies, seems to be that to 
not get eliminated early on, you have to have the degree, or your CV is 
never even reviewed by a human.

So I have to take my advice to Andy repeatedly - trying to find an 
insider to walk my CV to the appropriate person so they actually *see* it.

I found a position posted a couple days ago with a well-known online 
retailer that I'm pretty excited about - it has to do with an internal 
certification program that's being developed, and I've got the exact 
skill set they're looking for.  But I suspect that if I go in through the 
front door, the right person will never even see it, so I'm mining my 
professional network for a connection that can help (I know one person at 
this company, which is weird considering how large they are).

Because if I can get past that first automated screening hurdle, my 
experience and proven track record are what they really need to see to 
know that I'm exactly the person they're looking for.

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:00:54 +0000, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> On 15/01/2014 08:58 AM, scott wrote:
>> The problem is, and it's the same in the UK, it's "cool" to be dumb, or
>> at least appear to be dumb.
> 
> This seems to be pretty much the root of it all.
> 
> You know, there *was* a time when great mathematicians, engineers,
> scientists and so forth were like revered deities. What the heck
> happened??

Everybody became a winner.  At least that's part of it.  If being smart 
were important, then an inability to apply one's knowledge wouldn't be 
regarded as "still worthy of a trophy of participation".

It's more complicated than that, but at least here in the US, this idea 
that everyone's a winner and nobody ever fails is a dangerous, dangerous 
precedent.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 15-1-2014 21:36, Nekar Xenos wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:50:58 +0200, Doctor John <j.g### [at] gmailcom>
> wrote:
>
>> On 15/01/14 05:48, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
>
>>> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
>>> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
>>> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
>>> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
>>> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.
>>
>> Hi, Sherry. Long time, no see.
>> Unfortunately, there appear to be a few unreconstructed chauvinists on
>> the group atm.
>
> I think Gail left this group for the same reason...

I wasn't aware of that :( That would be a pity, because off-topic should 
be a place for as diverse a set of views as possible. I wouldn't know 
how you can have a broad conversation without women. Although I am also 
sometimes away for several days, because I do not always feel at home 
here anymore.

On women and computers. If I look at the people that I meet in that 
field, the majority are men and the majority of those with interesting 
views and knowledge and competence are women.
IME something has significantly changed over the last decade.
Is that because I am in the medical field or is that true also in the 
rest of the world?

There are still too many men in the field with the 'right' attitude but 
no significant skills. And that is especially true for the more 
management type of jobs. The qualified women are often just below that 
level and also often on a level below their abilities. (it is one of the 
reasons for the 'her' in my sig)

	Andrel

-- 
Everytime the IT department forbids something that a researcher deems
necessary for her work there will be another hole in the firewall.

Post a reply to this message

Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> And someone please explain to me, what IQ is?
> >
> > IQ is a quantification of your intelligence in comparison to the average
> > person of your age.

> It is therefore fundamentally dependant on whatever the designer 
> considers to be the "average person".

I don't think the idea is to define the "average person". The idea
is to measure tons of people and just take the average, and scale
the results so that the average gets 100 points.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/14 17:15, andrel wrote:
> Stephen, please, I know we don't have many women visitors here, but that
> is no reason to start to babble incoherently when one turns up.
> 
> [looking aside] Oh hi Sherry, good to see you again. I am assuming that
> my calendar starting to bleep your name today is just a coincidence that
> we won't have to look into further.
> 
> 

Super-big :-D
If you had met Stephen, you would know that he's a George Clooney
look-alike, albeit somewhat less than 160 cm tall ( a bit like Albert
Finney - and he was a real sex-god over here in the UK) He is also no
stranger to smooth talking. (Just kidding, Regan. Put down that axe. I
said put down that AAArgh)

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/14 23:07, andrel wrote:
> (it is one of the
> reasons for the 'her' in my sig)
> 
>     Andrel
> 

I missed that.

(Note to self: read the sig properly. It tells you a lot about the person)

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/14 19:32, Stephen wrote:
> I am all ears.
> 

Pardon?

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/14 18:49, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 05:08:27 +0000, Doctor John wrote:
> I was never quite brave (?) enough to try something like that.

I think you might mean stupid

> were a couple of kids on the football team (well, one in particular that 
> I remember well) who were really good to me, but mostly I just didn't 
> make friends easily because I was as I described.

Oddly, I've always pictured you as a typical US high school jock. You
know, 6 foot three and 190 lbs.

> 
> I didn't give it up because of the bullying - I was actually pretty good 
> (though I do say so myself).  I still have it, but I need to have some 
> work done on it before I can play it again - a repair gone bad several 
> years ago left the sound post stuck to the top face of the instrument, 
> and it's got a really bad wolf on the E string (the open E, at that).
> 
> I haven't played in years, though, because of that.  One of our neighbors 
> is a violin maker, even, but he said it'd cost about $400 to get it 
> fixed, because he'd have to take the front off the instrument to fix it.
> 

Good luck in selling the house then. House prices here in London seem to
be heading for the inflation levels of '74-76 with many buyers queuing
up to gazump each other.

> ...
> Thanks, that helps.  Oooh, coffee. :)
> 

<Looks at the time> A small snifter of the malt of your choice?

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/14 23:21, Doctor John wrote:
> If you had met Stephen, you would know that he's a George Clooney
> look-alike, albeit somewhat less than 160 cm tall ( a bit like Albert
> Finney 

Oops. I meant Alan Ladd
(Look up Billy Connoly and Weekend Soldier)

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

Post a reply to this message

On 15/01/14 19:11, Warp wrote:
> 
> Also, feeling inferior in mental capacity is a much more touchy
> subject than feeling inferior eg. in soccer or throwing a javelin.
> 

A perceptive answer. I need to consider this more.

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:00:54 +0000, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
> > On 15/01/2014 08:58 AM, scott wrote:
> >> The problem is, and it's the same in the UK, it's "cool" to be dumb, or
> >> at least appear to be dumb.
> >
> > This seems to be pretty much the root of it all.
> >
> > You know, there *was* a time when great mathematicians, engineers,
> > scientists and so forth were like revered deities. What the heck
> > happened??
>
> Everybody became a winner.  At least that's part of it.  If being smart
> were important, then an inability to apply one's knowledge wouldn't be
> regarded as "still worthy of a trophy of participation".
>
> It's more complicated than that, but at least here in the US, this idea
> that everyone's a winner and nobody ever fails is a dangerous, dangerous
> precedent.
>
> Jim
> --

Everyone is a winner and liked on fakebook for it

Post a reply to this message

Am 15.01.2014 21:51, schrieb Orchid Win7 v1:
>>> And someone please explain to me, what IQ is?
>>
>> IQ is a quantification of your intelligence in comparison to the average
>> person of your age.
>
> It is therefore fundamentally dependant on whatever the designer
> considers to be the "average person".

No, that's pretty well defined: The average person is the one that has a 
higher intelligence than 50% of the remaining population, and a lower 
one than the other 50%.

Post a reply to this message