On 18/10/13 21:08, Le_Forgeron wrote:
> Le 18/10/2013 20:36, Orchid Win7 v1 nous fit lire :
>> On 18/10/2013 10:36 AM, scott wrote:
>>> You should be grateful with what you have :-P On a good day I can get
>>> just above 3 Mb/s...
>>
>> Yeah, I was under the impression most of the country uses ADSL2, which
>> tops out at 8 Mb/s. I'm not actually sure how it's even *possible* to
>> have 40 Mb/s...
> 
> ADSL2+ tops at 20 Mb/s IP (or 28Mb/s ATM) for download, max 1Mb/s upload
> France allowed VDSL2 since 1 October 2013... if you are shorter than
> 1200m, it can provide far better rate. IIRC, 200Mb/s down and 50Mb/s
> up... if you are next to the NRA and the NRA is VDSL2 compatible...
> Half them for reality at less than 500 m of the NRA.
> 
> 
> Next to the NRA: rather: have direct access to it, your line being
> inside it!
> 
> Now, the usual NRA is up to 6000 m radius large, so the probability that
> you are less than 1200m from it is about 1/25 : 1 out of 25 house will
> be happy of VDSL2. On a city of 20 000 houses, that's not a so big
> number. (800)
> 
> 
Please note, I said 36-48 Mb/s _not_ MB/s

-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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>> Basically each wall is a sheet of plasterboard. So, looks pretty, but no
>> sound damping, and you can't make any holes in it. (It'll just snap in
>> half.)
>
> I imagine the landlord won't let you put holes in it, though it certainly
> is possible to drill holes in it.  But hanging stuff from the holes can
> be a bit tricky unless you use an anchor. :)

Some of the stuff already on the wall is falling off it. :-S

> Yeah, curtains should probably be on your "to buy" list sooner rather
> than later.

Indeed. Actually, since my grandparents owned their own company making 
custom curtains sold the world over, I think I know where I can get 
quality curtains. Trouble is, the flimsy little curtain poles I've got 
would be ripped straight off the wall. (Besides, who the hell wants 
their curtains hanging a foot away from the wall so it lets the light in 
around the edges??) I need to buy and put up some proper curtain rails. 
Looks like the space above the windows might actually be structural, so 
I can attach stuff to it...

>> Having said that, it's warmer since I turned my PC back on and set four
>> instances of POV-Ray running. (I've lost about two weeks of render time
>> due to this move...)
>
> That's one way to get the temperature up.  What kind of temperature do
> you find you sleep best at?

It seems I feel some comfortable (day and night) when the thermometer 
says between 21°C and 23°C. Below 20°C and I'm actually shivering. Above 
24°C is too hot.

> Wouldn't you know, I couldn't sleep with the heat on?  I have to have it
> around 55 degrees F in order to get a decent night's sleep.

Hehe, you Americans and your obsolete measurement systems...

>> Weird thing is, it says Honeywell on it - I thought they went out of
>> business about 30 years ago...
>
> Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to middle
> school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their manufacturing
> plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.

Mmm, OK.

Is it true they once made computational devices? Because that seems like 
a pretty random product combination - heating systems and computers...

> Some programmable thermostats have a removable front panel that has basic
> instructions on it (we've got two that are like that, but different makes/
> models).  If anything, there'll be a model number on it somewhere that
> you can get to without taking it off the wall.  Usually there's a
> battery, too (unless in the UK they run off a 220v circuit, which seems
> unlikely), so sometimes looking inside the battery cover might help find
> that info.

No instructions, but under the front plate there's a model number. I 
imagine it shouldn't be hard to locate the instructions. That's what we 
did with the washing machine. (Which, incidentally, has a drying 
function. I've never heard of such a thing before...)

>>> Oh, no, property values can (and do) go up.  I bought my first place
>>> out here in the mid-90's, paid about $89K for it (well, the bank did,
>>> and I paid them back when I sold the place and we moved in 2001.  The
>>> new place cost roughly double that (I think about $160K when all was
>>> said and done), and our realtor tells us that we should be able to get
>>> about $325K for it when we finish the last few little things that need
>>> finishing (a couple hardwood floors to professionally clean and
>>> refinish, and a little bit of painting).
>>
>> How does that work out after you correct for inflation?
>
> I'll still end up ahead.  We'll have about a year's worth of spare change
> in the bank.  The thing is, when you take a loan out for property, the
> loan is for the purchase price, and that doesn't adjust with inflation.

No, but the interest on the loan is 18x inflation. ;-)

>> I figure if you buy a property that's almost brand-new, once you sell
>> it, it's not brand-new any more, hence drastically less desirable. Also
>> half this block of flats appears to be empty currently, so...
>
> So you shouldn't have many noise complaints from your neighbors if you
> decide to listen to some music or watch TV. ;)

Having been threatened with physical violence for DARING to park in 
somebody else's space, I'm not going to risk it.

> Our house was built in 1912, with an addition added in the 1960's.  Real
> estate valuation is different than, say, a car (which generally
> depreciates).

Few things depreciate faster than computers. ;-) I bought a £250 CPU. I 
was thinking about selling it - until I realised that AMD still 
manufacture it, and you can buy it retail boxed for £21.

That's 1/11th of the original price I paid. *Clearly* no sane person is 
going to buy a second-hand CPU when they can get it brand new with 
manufacturer's guarantee for less than the cost of postage...

But, in general, most things seem to become more worthless the older 
they are. (Including me, sadly...)

> Again, it's supply and demand.  If there are 10 people who
> want to move into a neighborhood where there are only 3 houses up for
> sale, those 10 people will determine the value of the property simply
> because there's more demand than supply.  That can actually drive
> property values up.

And if there's already lots of empty flats?

> But there are other things that add to property value - local schools,
> available public transport, crime levels, access to parks and other green
> spaces, "walkability" (ie, can you get to the shops by walking or do you
> need to drive somewhere to get your groceries?), proximity to local
> employers, and so on.  The value isn't entirely in the specific property,
> but in the surrounding neigbourhood.  That's one reason why a real estate
> agent will pull "comps" - prices on nearby "comparable" properties that
> have recently sold.  That gives the agent an idea as to what the going
> prices are for houses like yours.

OK, so I now live on the shore of an artificial lake in an idyllic green 
parkland, with various water-sports centres and so forth. This end of 
the city is still fairly green in general, although they're slowing 
building on it.

Since this grid-square is half under water, there are no local shops. 
I've yet to work out where the nearest local shop is. There are various 
supermarkets in various directions, if you want to drive. Basically I 
don't really know my way around this side of the city yet; I've lived in 
the western corner all my life, and never really come out this way much. 
(As I say, there's not much here.)

Everybody seems to *say* this is a low-crime area. Then again, none of 
those people live hear. Last weekend some lovely chaps smashed several 
glass bottles in the middle of the car park, which I then had to drive 
over. But overall it seems *reasonably* low-crime.

> Then, too, there's improvements (as I mentioned before).

It's a block of flats. You can't really do much to it.

> Also, not everyone wants "new".  Some people prefer an older property
> with "character".

I'm not sure a government-funded block of cheap flats is what most 
people would call "character".

But hey, I ain't trying to sell this place just yet!

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On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:54:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> I imagine the landlord won't let you put holes in it, though it
>> certainly is possible to drill holes in it.  But hanging stuff from the
>> holes can be a bit tricky unless you use an anchor. :)
> 
> Some of the stuff already on the wall is falling off it. :-S

Probably no anchors for the stuff. :)

>> Yeah, curtains should probably be on your "to buy" list sooner rather
>> than later.
> 
> Indeed. Actually, since my grandparents owned their own company making
> custom curtains sold the world over, I think I know where I can get
> quality curtains. Trouble is, the flimsy little curtain poles I've got
> would be ripped straight off the wall. (Besides, who the hell wants
> their curtains hanging a foot away from the wall so it lets the light in
> around the edges??) I need to buy and put up some proper curtain rails.
> Looks like the space above the windows might actually be structural, so
> I can attach stuff to it...

Normally across the top of a window you'll find structural wood that's 
sufficient for attaching the rails.  Building codes being what they are, 
you can't have a hole in the wall (which is what a window is) without 
structure to hold the rest of the wall up.  Have you seen pictures of 
building construction (or, for that matter, buildings being constructed)?

You can pick out where the windows are even if they're not installed yet 
because of how the structure is built.

>>> Having said that, it's warmer since I turned my PC back on and set
>>> four instances of POV-Ray running. (I've lost about two weeks of
>>> render time due to this move...)
>>
>> That's one way to get the temperature up.  What kind of temperature do
>> you find you sleep best at?
> 
> It seems I feel some comfortable (day and night) when the thermometer
> says between 21°C and 23°C. Below 20°C and I'm actually shivering. Above
> 24°C is too hot.

But when you go to sleep, you have blankets and sheets, too.  A cooler 
temperature is usually a good thing.

>> Wouldn't you know, I couldn't sleep with the heat on?  I have to have
>> it around 55 degrees F in order to get a decent night's sleep.
> 
> Hehe, you Americans and your obsolete measurement systems...

It's what we're used to.  You use miles rather than kilometers, so you're 
only partially on a sensible system.  We inherited our system from you. ;)

~11°C - though maybe 60°F (~14°C), if you must. ;)  (Not precise - if you 
want that, Google can convert it for you - I'm just doing a quick 
conversion with a division by 2 rather than multiplying by 9/5 because 
I'm lazy).

>>> Weird thing is, it says Honeywell on it - I thought they went out of
>>> business about 30 years ago...
>>
>> Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to
>> middle school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their
>> manufacturing plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.
> 
> Mmm, OK.
> 
> Is it true they once made computational devices? Because that seems like
> a pretty random product combination - heating systems and computers...

Yep, they did/do.  They're a technology company, but the consumer 
products most people run into are thermostats.

>> Some programmable thermostats have a removable front panel that has
>> basic instructions on it (we've got two that are like that, but
>> different makes/
>> models).  If anything, there'll be a model number on it somewhere that
>> you can get to without taking it off the wall.  Usually there's a
>> battery, too (unless in the UK they run off a 220v circuit, which seems
>> unlikely), so sometimes looking inside the battery cover might help
>> find that info.
> 
> No instructions, but under the front plate there's a model number. I
> imagine it shouldn't be hard to locate the instructions. That's what we
> did with the washing machine. (Which, incidentally, has a drying
> function. I've never heard of such a thing before...)

A combo washer/dryer - that sounds handy.  I think that's what our 
friends in High Wycombe have.

But good, that's a step in the right direction to figuring out how to use 
the thing.

>>>> Oh, no, property values can (and do) go up.  I bought my first place
>>>> out here in the mid-90's, paid about $89K for it (well, the bank did,
>>>> and I paid them back when I sold the place and we moved in 2001.  The
>>>> new place cost roughly double that (I think about $160K when all was
>>>> said and done), and our realtor tells us that we should be able to
>>>> get about $325K for it when we finish the last few little things that
>>>> need finishing (a couple hardwood floors to professionally clean and
>>>> refinish, and a little bit of painting).
>>>
>>> How does that work out after you correct for inflation?
>>
>> I'll still end up ahead.  We'll have about a year's worth of spare
>> change in the bank.  The thing is, when you take a loan out for
>> property, the loan is for the purchase price, and that doesn't adjust
>> with inflation.
> 
> No, but the interest on the loan is 18x inflation. ;-)

No, because the interest is calculated based on the purchase price.  
6.25% of 140,000 is the same regardless of the rate of inflation.

>>> I figure if you buy a property that's almost brand-new, once you sell
>>> it, it's not brand-new any more, hence drastically less desirable.
>>> Also half this block of flats appears to be empty currently, so...
>>
>> So you shouldn't have many noise complaints from your neighbors if you
>> decide to listen to some music or watch TV. ;)
> 
> Having been threatened with physical violence for DARING to park in
> somebody else's space, I'm not going to risk it.

That's reasonable, though it seems that the threat of physical violence 
is a bit over the top.  I might be disinclined to invite that particular 
neighbor over to the housewarming party.  Then again, maybe they were 
having a bad day (it's not like that never happens).

>> Our house was built in 1912, with an addition added in the 1960's. 
>> Real estate valuation is different than, say, a car (which generally
>> depreciates).
> 
> Few things depreciate faster than computers. ;-) I bought a £250 CPU. I
> was thinking about selling it - until I realised that AMD still
> manufacture it, and you can buy it retail boxed for £21.
> 
> That's 1/11th of the original price I paid. *Clearly* no sane person is
> going to buy a second-hand CPU when they can get it brand new with
> manufacturer's guarantee for less than the cost of postage...

That's because of the advance in technology, and people buying computers 
value the latest and greatest.

People buying real estate, though, have other factors they're considering.

The counterexample to your CPU example is the Mona Lisa, or a Stradavarius 
violin.  Obviously those items are things that the value has not gone 
down for over the years.

> But, in general, most things seem to become more worthless the older
> they are. (Including me, sadly...)

OK, knock that shit off right now.  I mean it. :)

>> Again, it's supply and demand.  If there are 10 people who want to move
>> into a neighborhood where there are only 3 houses up for sale, those 10
>> people will determine the value of the property simply because there's
>> more demand than supply.  That can actually drive property values up.
> 
> And if there's already lots of empty flats?

Then the price is lower, but it still is higher now than it was 20 years 
ago, partially because of inflation, and partly because of other 
environmental factors (see below).

>> But there are other things that add to property value - local schools,
>> available public transport, crime levels, access to parks and other
>> green spaces, "walkability" (ie, can you get to the shops by walking or
>> do you need to drive somewhere to get your groceries?), proximity to
>> local employers, and so on.  The value isn't entirely in the specific
>> property, but in the surrounding neigbourhood.  That's one reason why a
>> real estate agent will pull "comps" - prices on nearby "comparable"
>> properties that have recently sold.  That gives the agent an idea as to
>> what the going prices are for houses like yours.
> 
> OK, so I now live on the shore of an artificial lake in an idyllic green
> parkland, with various water-sports centres and so forth. This end of
> the city is still fairly green in general, although they're slowing
> building on it.

Sounds like a nice area.

> Since this grid-square is half under water, there are no local shops.
> I've yet to work out where the nearest local shop is. There are various
> supermarkets in various directions, if you want to drive. Basically I
> don't really know my way around this side of the city yet; I've lived in
> the western corner all my life, and never really come out this way much.
> (As I say, there's not much here.)

Some people prefer having the shops farther away, too - because it means 
you don't have non-local traffic in the neighborhood (which can affect 
crime).  We had a big argument in our local community about the grocery 
store that's half a mile or so up the road from us putting in a fuel 
station.  The concern was that the neighborhood would see a lot more 
traffic from outside the neighborhood because of the gas station, and we 
already have parking problems here (there are shops up there as well, and 
there's insufficient parking).  The businesses love it, generally, 
because it's drawing more customers in for them.  But the residents 
generally don't like it because - especially for those who live near the 
shops - if they park on the street, there may be customers parked in 
front of their house.  Harder to have visitors over, etc.

> Everybody seems to *say* this is a low-crime area. Then again, none of
> those people live hear. Last weekend some lovely chaps smashed several
> glass bottles in the middle of the car park, which I then had to drive
> over. But overall it seems *reasonably* low-crime.

Well, yeah, "low-crime" doesn't mean "crime-free".  Our neighborhood is 
generally a low crime area as well, but we've had a string of burglaries 
(in fact, on Thursday we think someone attempted to burgle our home - but 
we were here, much to their surprise).  The technique used requires two 
people - one person rings the front bell, the other goes around to the 
back door.  If they don't get an answer, they assume the owners aren't 
home, and they break in and steal jewelry (typically - easier to hide 
than other stuff).

But we don't tend to answer our door if we're not expecting anyone, 
because we don't deal with door-to-door salespeople, missionaries, etc 
(we have a "no solicitations" sign up in the front window).

Amy answered the back door when they started knocking on it, and the 
woman there asked for directions to an address over a mile away from here 
- and SLC streets are a grid, so finding an address is trivially easy.  
If you're on 1000 S 900 E and the address is at 500 E 700 S, finding the 
address is pretty easy - 4 blocks west (900 E - 500 E) and 3 blocks north 
(1000 S - 700 S).  You have to be pretty dumb not to understand that.

And besides, who goes around to the back door of a house to ask for 
directions when the front door isn't answered?

The woman at the front door rang the bell a second time, and I answered 
it, and got a completely different story.  She was asking for a 
"Kimberly" (nobody here by that name), and then changed stories and said 
that she'd dropped her kid sister off here 3 days ago and hadn't heard 
from her since.  But if you have a missing family member, you don't go 
looking after 3 days, you call the cops and file a missing persons report.

Then the one from the back left and got in a car, and her accomplice at 
the front door left at that point and got into the same car and they 
drove off.

>> Then, too, there's improvements (as I mentioned before).
> 
> It's a block of flats. You can't really do much to it.

Well, yeah, flats are different than a house.

>> Also, not everyone wants "new".  Some people prefer an older property
>> with "character".
> 
> I'm not sure a government-funded block of cheap flats is what most
> people would call "character".
>
> But hey, I ain't trying to sell this place just yet!

When you do get ready to, just ask the landlord what you can/can't do.  :)

Jim

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On 19/10/2013 8:02 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:54:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
>>> Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to
>>> middle school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their
>>> manufacturing plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.
>>
>> Mmm, OK.
>>
>> Is it true they once made computational devices? Because that seems like
>> a pretty random product combination - heating systems and computers...
>
> Yep, they did/do.  They're a technology company, but the consumer
> products most people run into are thermostats.
>

My first real job was with Honeywell, testing PCBs for the H 316.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_316

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 21:10:15 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 19/10/2013 8:02 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:54:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>
>>>> Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to
>>>> middle school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their
>>>> manufacturing plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.
>>>
>>> Mmm, OK.
>>>
>>> Is it true they once made computational devices? Because that seems
>>> like a pretty random product combination - heating systems and
>>> computers...
>>
>> Yep, they did/do.  They're a technology company, but the consumer
>> products most people run into are thermostats.
>>
>>
> My first real job was with Honeywell, testing PCBs for the H 316.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_316

Now you mention it, I think you'd mentioned that before. :)  They have/
had locations all over the place - I've got a friend in Arizona who 
worked for them there as well - about 30 years ago.

Jim

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On 18/10/13 22:32, Jim Henderson wrote:

> plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.
> 
Not the one in my living room. It's  failed.

I am, of course, kidding. It's failed (its very old) but failed _on_
which is better than failing _off_ - I'd rather cook than freeze. With a
bit of luck the engineer will turn up on time on Monday.

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 23:47:31 +0100, Doctor John wrote:

> On 18/10/13 22:32, Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.
>> 
> Not the one in my living room. It's  failed.
> 
> I am, of course, kidding. It's failed (its very old) but failed _on_
> which is better than failing _off_ - I'd rather cook than freeze. With a
> bit of luck the engineer will turn up on time on Monday.

That someone's coming out, though, is nice - we've replaced ours 
ourselves in the past. :)

Jim

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On 20/10/13 00:53, Jim Henderson wrote:
> That someone's coming out, though, is nice - we've replaced ours 
> ourselves in the past. :)
> 
> Jim
> 

Keeping my fingers crossed

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

Post a reply to this message

On 19/10/2013 11:03 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 21:10:15 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>>>
>> My first real job was with Honeywell, testing PCBs for the H 316.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_316
>
> Now you mention it, I think you'd mentioned that before. :)  They have/
> had locations all over the place - I've got a friend in Arizona who
> worked for them there as well - about 30 years ago.
>

I have a soft spot for the company, I learned boolean logic, how to 
solder and made my first amplifier there. (We we encouraged to do 
"homers" as it increased our skills.)


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

>>> That's one way to get the temperature up.  What kind of temperature do
>>> you find you sleep best at?
>>
>> It seems I feel some comfortable (day and night) when the thermometer
>> says between 21°C and 23°C. Below 20°C and I'm actually shivering. Above
>> 24°C is too hot.
>
> But when you go to sleep, you have blankets and sheets, too.  A cooler
> temperature is usually a good thing.

I find if it's below 20°C or so, I have a still neck the next day.

>> Hehe, you Americans and your obsolete measurement systems...
>
> It's what we're used to.  You use miles rather than kilometers, so you're
> only partially on a sensible system.  We inherited our system from you. ;)

Yeah, well, we're working on it. ;-)

>> No instructions, but under the front plate there's a model number. I
>> imagine it shouldn't be hard to locate the instructions. That's what we
>> did with the washing machine. (Which, incidentally, has a drying
>> function. I've never heard of such a thing before...)
>
> A combo washer/dryer - that sounds handy.  I think that's what our
> friends in High Wycombe have.

Yeah, from what I hear, having a machine with both functions just means 
it does each of them less well than a dedicated device. But hey, it took 
a while to clean it, but it now seems to wash my clothes quite well. 
(Initially they came out dirtier than they went in!)

>> Few things depreciate faster than computers. ;-) I bought a £250 CPU. I
>> was thinking about selling it - until I realised that AMD still
>> manufacture it, and you can buy it retail boxed for £21.
>
> That's because of the advance in technology, and people buying computers
> value the latest and greatest.
>
> People buying real estate, though, have other factors they're considering.
>
> The counterexample to your CPU example is the Mona Lisa, or a Stradavarius
> violin.  Obviously those items are things that the value has not gone
> down for over the years.

Thing is, they don't constantly produce new Mona Lisas - in fact, there 
is only one in the entire world. Houses, on the other hand, are 
constantly being built. (Though, again, location counts for something.)

>> Since this grid-square is half under water, there are no local shops.
>
> Some people prefer having the shops farther away, too - because it means
> you don't have non-local traffic in the neighborhood (which can affect
> crime).

In MK, what they generally do is that each residential grid square has 
its own bunch of shops. So everybody just goes to their own local shops. 
(And then there are the retail grid squares, which have larger shops 
that people travel to. But nobody lives there.) It's actually quite an 
efficient system - which is why the county council is dedicated to 
getting rid of it ASAP.

>>> Then, too, there's improvements (as I mentioned before).
>>
>> It's a block of flats. You can't really do much to it.
>
> Well, yeah, flats are different than a house.

Well hey, like I said, I hopefully won't be selling it for a very long 
time. I haven't finished moving in yet!

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