Le 18/10/2013 20:36, Orchid Win7 v1 nous fit lire :
> On 18/10/2013 10:36 AM, scott wrote:
>> You should be grateful with what you have :-P On a good day I can get
>> just above 3 Mb/s...
> 
> Yeah, I was under the impression most of the country uses ADSL2, which
> tops out at 8 Mb/s. I'm not actually sure how it's even *possible* to
> have 40 Mb/s...

ADSL2+ tops at 20 Mb/s IP (or 28Mb/s ATM) for download, max 1Mb/s upload
France allowed VDSL2 since 1 October 2013... if you are shorter than
1200m, it can provide far better rate. IIRC, 200Mb/s down and 50Mb/s
up... if you are next to the NRA and the NRA is VDSL2 compatible...
Half them for reality at less than 500 m of the NRA.


Next to the NRA: rather: have direct access to it, your line being
inside it!

Now, the usual NRA is up to 6000 m radius large, so the probability that
you are less than 1200m from it is about 1/25 : 1 out of 25 house will
be happy of VDSL2. On a city of 20 000 houses, that's not a so big
number. (800)

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On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 19:52:34 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> On 17/10/2013 11:34 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Ah, now if I'd known that, I could've sent you some bookcases we just
>> gave away. ;)
> 
> My mother has a shelf obsession, not me! My flat is quite full of
> furniture as it is; I don't need any more.

If you've ever seen "Waiting for God" - this made me think of Geoffrey.  
If you haven't, that won't make any sense, though. :)

I don't think we could afford the shipping. :)

> The walls are made of cardboard, so you can't actually attach anything
> to them. (Not if you don't want the entire wall to crack in half,
> anyway.) So everything has to be bookcases and the like.

Ah, yes, paneling - we've got some of that in our place - it's attached 
to sheetrock, but I could see that being a problem.

>> Good curtains are a good thing - we've got some windows in the back of
>> our place that don't have interior coverings (we have exterior shades
>> on three of the bigger windows - they help keep the place cool in the
>> summer).
> 
> I'm hoping this place will be cool in summer - the Sun never faces it.
> But it's not very warm right now with no curtains... I'd turn the
> heating on more, but without curtains I'm just pouring money down the
> drain.

Are the windows single- or double-glazed?  Curtains may not make that 
much difference if they're double.

>>> I especially enjoyed that the paperwork for the flat contains the
>>> manual for the previous boiler, and not the one presently fitted. :-D
>>
>> That sounds familiar.  When we moved in here, we found several old
>> instruction manuals for all sorts of stuff that was no longer here.
> 
> The flat comes with an owner's manual of sorts - a folder with sections
> for everything you would ever need to know. Trouble is, it was clearly
> compiled by the builders. So it contains the manual for the boiler they
> installed, not the new one it was replaced with.

Got a model number and manufacturer for the new one?  Usually there's 
something printed on a metal plate (or otherwise) on the side of the 
thing that has that info - I find most manuals can be found online these 
days, but if not, having the manufacturer and the make means you can get 
hold of someone at the company and ask for one if you really need it.  
That's what we ended up doing with the ancient boiler our place came with.

> But I think the thing I most enjoyed was the section entitled "meter
> locations". It is entirely empty.

LOL

>> I don't know about in the UK, but here in the US, it's been my
>> experience that with that type of gathering, people tend to come and
>> go.  Put some music on, get some light snacks (chips, dip, pizza, that
>> sort of thing - and drinks, of course) and invite people to come over. 
>> Get to know and invite your neighbors as well - that's a great way to
>> reduce the chances of a noise complaint from them. :)
>>
>> People tend to just gather and socialize, have a drink or two, and then
>> may wander off.  My son did something like this when he and his SO got
>> their place - with only a couch, they got a bunch of pillows/cushions
>> so people could sit on the floor.  They played video games and such as
>> well.
> 
> We'll see what I can set up. According to the terms of the lease, I'm
> not allowed to play music though. (Which is unsurprising, given the
> walls are made of cardboard. If the guy next door takes a dump, I can
> tell you if it's one lump or two!) I'm also not allowed to use a TV,
> although I'm damned sure I've heard other people doing so. Oh, and I'm
> not allowed to play a musical instrument OR SING!

TMI on your neighbor ;) - but you might talk to the landlord and see what 
accommodation they're able to/willing to make for a housewarming party.
> 
>>> My last bank statement was scary. It's alarming to see the money out
>>> column has MORE DIGITS in it than the money in column. :-S Welcome to
>>> never having any money ever again. ;-)
>>
>> I know *that* story. ;)  It's been over 2 years since I was laid off
>> and started working for myself.  While I could make a lot per month if
>> I put in a full work week each week, I tend to work about 4 hours a day
>> on average, really just enough to keep paying the bills.
> 
> No matter what your woes, somebody else always has a bigger problem.
> Why, I just spoke to my ex-girlfriend, and her sister died yesterday.
> What do you even SAY to something like that??

"I'm sorry for your loss" or "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that" is usually a 
good place to start.  That is sad news indeed.  I find that some people 
enjoy talking about the person who passed away, others want to be 
distracted.  Listening is usually good.

> 
>>> Oh, and my boss tells me I might want to update my CV, because the
>>> company *may* go under shortly. O_O
>>>
>>> (NOW you tell me?!)
>>
>> Eep.  Always a good thing to keep the CV current, just in case.  I wish
>> I'd done that in the years leading up to my layoff - it was much harder
>> to remember and provide specifics on projects I worked on (things like
>> savings, revenue impacts, that sort of thing - if you work on stuff
>> where you have that information available).
> 
> Fortunately, I now have a goodly list of stuff I've single-handedly done
> here. And more to the point, last time around everybody who interviewed
> me was wowed by the stuff I put on my CV, but then completely lost
> interest when I said I have no commercial experience. Now I have a year
> of solid experience, so...

That'll certainly help. :)

>> We're looking to probably move to Seattle by the end of the year
> 
> Sometimes I like to think of moving from one American state to another
> as being like moving between European countries. I gather they're
> approximately the same size...

Depends on the state.  Here in Salt Lake City (and the surrounding towns) 
there's about a million people.  Seattle's about the same size, but 
different politics, climate, ... pretty much everything. :)

>> That's one of the nice things about owning a place and fixing it up -
>> you can make money on it when you sell it. :)
> 
> Interesting. I assumed that you always lose a huge chunk of money when
> you sell a property - pretty much like anything else you can buy...

Oh, no, property values can (and do) go up.  I bought my first place out 
here in the mid-90's, paid about $89K for it (well, the bank did, and I 
paid them back when I sold the place and we moved in 2001.  The new place 
cost roughly double that (I think about $160K when all was said and 
done), and our realtor tells us that we should be able to get about $325K 
for it when we finish the last few little things that need finishing (a 
couple hardwood floors to professionally clean and refinish, and a little 
bit of painting).

A lot of it has to do with supply and demand.  Right now around here, 
it's a seller's market (there are more people wanting to move in than are 
wanting to leave), so you can ask a higher price.

We also had a 50-year roof put on the place while we were here - at a 
cost of about $20K (we had equity built up in the property because we 
bought it below market value, so we put the equity up as collateral for a 
loan).  So the next people to own the place (and possibly a few after 
them) won't have to have the roof done.  That's got value, too.

New heating system (the "ancient" boiler has been replaced with a high-
efficiency multi-zone radiant heating system), restoration work in the 
living areas, completely refinished the addition.  The costs add up, but 
the return is pretty good.  I could point you at before and after 
pictures if you were interested. :)

Jim

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On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:36:26 +0100, scott wrote:

>> So, about the same speed that I get in Westminster. Mine varies between
>> 36 and 48 Mb/s. OTOH we haven't been given optical fibre yet, which is
>> a bit odd considering the number of MPs etc who live here. When BT
>> finally gets around to doing us, I expect speeds to increase by an
>> order of magnitude.
> 
> You should be grateful with what you have :-P On a good day I can get
> just above 3 Mb/s...

About the same here, too...

Jim

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>> The walls are made of cardboard, so you can't actually attach anything
>> to them. (Not if you don't want the entire wall to crack in half,
>> anyway.) So everything has to be bookcases and the like.
>
> Ah, yes, paneling - we've got some of that in our place - it's attached
> to sheetrock, but I could see that being a problem.

Basically each wall is a sheet of plasterboard. So, looks pretty, but no 
sound damping, and you can't make any holes in it. (It'll just snap in 
half.)

My mum's house is made of, you know, BRICKS and stuff. At night I do 
feel a little bit vulnerable sitting in this cardboard display case with 
no curtains and nothing but some plaster between me and the big bad 
world out there...

>> I'm hoping this place will be cool in summer - the Sun never faces it.
>> But it's not very warm right now with no curtains... I'd turn the
>> heating on more, but without curtains I'm just pouring money down the
>> drain.
>
> Are the windows single- or double-glazed?  Curtains may not make that
> much difference if they're double.

It's all double-glazed. Never the less, the bedroom is significantly 
colder than the rest of the flat. And the single tiny radiator there 
takes much longer to get warm - presumably since it's at the opposite 
end of the building. So right now my kitchen is like a sauna, but the 
place where I actually want to sleep is still too cold. (And cools down 
rather quickly once I turn the heating off, which is the alarming part.)

Having said that, it's warmer since I turned my PC back on and set four 
instances of POV-Ray running. (I've lost about two weeks of render time 
due to this move...)

>> The flat comes with an owner's manual of sorts - a folder with sections
>> for everything you would ever need to know. Trouble is, it was clearly
>> compiled by the builders. So it contains the manual for the boiler they
>> installed, not the new one it was replaced with.
>
> Got a model number and manufacturer for the new one?

Well, I found the manual for the actual boiler laying around in a 
cupboard. I still don't have a manual for the timer controls though.

Weird thing is, it says Honeywell on it - I thought they went out of 
business about 30 years ago...

>> No matter what your woes, somebody else always has a bigger problem.
>> Why, I just spoke to my ex-girlfriend, and her sister died yesterday.
>> What do you even SAY to something like that??
>
> "I'm sorry for your loss" or "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that" is usually a
> good place to start.  That is sad news indeed.  I find that some people
> enjoy talking about the person who passed away, others want to be
> distracted.  Listening is usually good.

When I heard she had leukaemia, I wasn't sure what to say. A few months 
later they diagnosed liver cancer. Last week they added brain cancer to 
the list... There's really not a lot you can say to that. And now she's 
actually dead. Everyone responds differently; I think Lynn just wants to 
be left alone right now. She's probably got a dozen people offering her 
their sympathies.

On a happier note, she visited my flat last weekend, and seemed 
impressed with it. And hopefully I've got another visitor tomorrow...

>> Sometimes I like to think of moving from one American state to another
>> as being like moving between European countries. I gather they're
>> approximately the same size...
>
> Depends on the state.  Here in Salt Lake City (and the surrounding towns)
> there's about a million people.  Seattle's about the same size, but
> different politics, climate, ... pretty much everything. :)

...just like another country. ;-)

>>> That's one of the nice things about owning a place and fixing it up -
>>> you can make money on it when you sell it. :)
>>
>> Interesting. I assumed that you always lose a huge chunk of money when
>> you sell a property - pretty much like anything else you can buy...
>
> Oh, no, property values can (and do) go up.  I bought my first place out
> here in the mid-90's, paid about $89K for it (well, the bank did, and I
> paid them back when I sold the place and we moved in 2001.  The new place
> cost roughly double that (I think about $160K when all was said and
> done), and our realtor tells us that we should be able to get about $325K
> for it when we finish the last few little things that need finishing (a
> couple hardwood floors to professionally clean and refinish, and a little
> bit of painting).

How does that work out after you correct for inflation?

> A lot of it has to do with supply and demand.  Right now around here,
> it's a seller's market (there are more people wanting to move in than are
> wanting to leave), so you can ask a higher price.

I figure if you buy a property that's almost brand-new, once you sell 
it, it's not brand-new any more, hence drastically less desirable. Also 
half this block of flats appears to be empty currently, so...

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On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:50:21 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> The walls are made of cardboard, so you can't actually attach anything
>>> to them. (Not if you don't want the entire wall to crack in half,
>>> anyway.) So everything has to be bookcases and the like.
>>
>> Ah, yes, paneling - we've got some of that in our place - it's attached
>> to sheetrock, but I could see that being a problem.
> 
> Basically each wall is a sheet of plasterboard. So, looks pretty, but no
> sound damping, and you can't make any holes in it. (It'll just snap in
> half.)

I imagine the landlord won't let you put holes in it, though it certainly 
is possible to drill holes in it.  But hanging stuff from the holes can 
be a bit tricky unless you use an anchor. :)

> My mum's house is made of, you know, BRICKS and stuff. At night I do
> feel a little bit vulnerable sitting in this cardboard display case with
> no curtains and nothing but some plaster between me and the big bad
> world out there...

Yeah, curtains should probably be on your "to buy" list sooner rather 
than later.

>>> I'm hoping this place will be cool in summer - the Sun never faces it.
>>> But it's not very warm right now with no curtains... I'd turn the
>>> heating on more, but without curtains I'm just pouring money down the
>>> drain.
>>
>> Are the windows single- or double-glazed?  Curtains may not make that
>> much difference if they're double.
> 
> It's all double-glazed. Never the less, the bedroom is significantly
> colder than the rest of the flat. And the single tiny radiator there
> takes much longer to get warm - presumably since it's at the opposite
> end of the building. So right now my kitchen is like a sauna, but the
> place where I actually want to sleep is still too cold. (And cools down
> rather quickly once I turn the heating off, which is the alarming part.)



> Having said that, it's warmer since I turned my PC back on and set four
> instances of POV-Ray running. (I've lost about two weeks of render time
> due to this move...)

That's one way to get the temperature up.  What kind of temperature do 
you find you sleep best at?  After growing up in Minnesota with my dad - 
"the miser" (he grew up during the great depression) - he'd turn the heat 
off at night.  I froze my butt off every night, and swore than when I got 
my own place, I'd not turn the heat off.

Wouldn't you know, I couldn't sleep with the heat on?  I have to have it 
around 55 degrees F in order to get a decent night's sleep.

>>> The flat comes with an owner's manual of sorts - a folder with
>>> sections for everything you would ever need to know. Trouble is, it
>>> was clearly compiled by the builders. So it contains the manual for
>>> the boiler they installed, not the new one it was replaced with.
>>
>> Got a model number and manufacturer for the new one?
> 
> Well, I found the manual for the actual boiler laying around in a
> cupboard. I still don't have a manual for the timer controls though.
> 
> Weird thing is, it says Honeywell on it - I thought they went out of
> business about 30 years ago...

Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to middle 
school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their manufacturing 
plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.

Some programmable thermostats have a removable front panel that has basic 
instructions on it (we've got two that are like that, but different makes/
models).  If anything, there'll be a model number on it somewhere that 
you can get to without taking it off the wall.  Usually there's a 
battery, too (unless in the UK they run off a 220v circuit, which seems 
unlikely), so sometimes looking inside the battery cover might help find 
that info.

>>> No matter what your woes, somebody else always has a bigger problem.
>>> Why, I just spoke to my ex-girlfriend, and her sister died yesterday.
>>> What do you even SAY to something like that??
>>
>> "I'm sorry for your loss" or "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that" is usually
>> a good place to start.  That is sad news indeed.  I find that some
>> people enjoy talking about the person who passed away, others want to
>> be distracted.  Listening is usually good.
> 
> When I heard she had leukaemia, I wasn't sure what to say. A few months
> later they diagnosed liver cancer. Last week they added brain cancer to
> the list... There's really not a lot you can say to that. And now she's
> actually dead. Everyone responds differently; I think Lynn just wants to
> be left alone right now. She's probably got a dozen people offering her
> their sympathies.

Yeah, there really isn't much to say about it beyond "I'm sorry to hear 
that, let me know if there's anything I can do for you".  While she may 
have lots of people offering sympathies, it generally never hurts to 
acknowledge other people's pain.  Sometimes not doing so can be seen as 
being unsympathetic, too.

> On a happier note, she visited my flat last weekend, and seemed
> impressed with it. And hopefully I've got another visitor tomorrow...

That sounds good. :)

>>> Sometimes I like to think of moving from one American state to another
>>> as being like moving between European countries. I gather they're
>>> approximately the same size...
>>
>> Depends on the state.  Here in Salt Lake City (and the surrounding
>> towns)
>> there's about a million people.  Seattle's about the same size, but
>> different politics, climate, ... pretty much everything. :)
> 
> ...just like another country. ;-)

Yep. :)

>>>> That's one of the nice things about owning a place and fixing it up -
>>>> you can make money on it when you sell it. :)
>>>
>>> Interesting. I assumed that you always lose a huge chunk of money when
>>> you sell a property - pretty much like anything else you can buy...
>>
>> Oh, no, property values can (and do) go up.  I bought my first place
>> out here in the mid-90's, paid about $89K for it (well, the bank did,
>> and I paid them back when I sold the place and we moved in 2001.  The
>> new place cost roughly double that (I think about $160K when all was
>> said and done), and our realtor tells us that we should be able to get
>> about $325K for it when we finish the last few little things that need
>> finishing (a couple hardwood floors to professionally clean and
>> refinish, and a little bit of painting).
> 
> How does that work out after you correct for inflation?

I'll still end up ahead.  We'll have about a year's worth of spare change 
in the bank.  The thing is, when you take a loan out for property, the 
loan is for the purchase price, and that doesn't adjust with inflation.  
So, we moved in here 12 years ago and had a loan for $145K or so (we had 
enough of a down payment from the sale of the previous place that we 
didn't have to borrow the entire amount).  Today, we still owe on that 
initial principal - about $120K or so, as I recall.  So, when we pay the 
loan off with the proceeds of the sale, we'll have about $200K from which 
we'll pay the realtor's commission (about 5%-6% of the sale price 
normally), a chunk comes out to pay off the equity line of credit that 
paid for the roof and some of the other stuff, some to pay off other 
debts we have, and our moving expenses.  We figure we'll have enough to 
replace our 14-year-old car as well and to pay rent on a flat in Seattle 
that we think looks good to us for about a year - if I don't work at all 
in that year (which I will).

We'd keep the car going if we could, but the brand was discontinued a few 
years ago, and our mechanics (who used to work for the dealership we 
bought it from) have said they're now starting to have trouble finding 
parts.  It's entirely possible we'll sell it to them to use as parts, but 
I don't expect we'll get much for it.

>> A lot of it has to do with supply and demand.  Right now around here,
>> it's a seller's market (there are more people wanting to move in than
>> are wanting to leave), so you can ask a higher price.
> 
> I figure if you buy a property that's almost brand-new, once you sell
> it, it's not brand-new any more, hence drastically less desirable. Also
> half this block of flats appears to be empty currently, so...

So you shouldn't have many noise complaints from your neighbors if you 
decide to listen to some music or watch TV. ;)

Our house was built in 1912, with an addition added in the 1960's.  Real 
estate valuation is different than, say, a car (which generally 
depreciates).  Again, it's supply and demand.  If there are 10 people who 
want to move into a neighborhood where there are only 3 houses up for 
sale, those 10 people will determine the value of the property simply 
because there's more demand than supply.  That can actually drive 
property values up.

But there are other things that add to property value - local schools, 
available public transport, crime levels, access to parks and other green 
spaces, "walkability" (ie, can you get to the shops by walking or do you 
need to drive somewhere to get your groceries?), proximity to local 
employers, and so on.  The value isn't entirely in the specific property, 
but in the surrounding neigbourhood.  That's one reason why a real estate 
agent will pull "comps" - prices on nearby "comparable" properties that 
have recently sold.  That gives the agent an idea as to what the going 
prices are for houses like yours.

Then, too, there's improvements (as I mentioned before).  The house I'm 
in was built in 1912, but the roof was added in 2005 or so.  The addition 
was put on the house in the '60s, but we redid the floors, repainted the 
walls, and modernized it.  We fixed bad wiring (in fact the last of the 
electrical work we need to do was done today), added an electrical sub-
panel and outlets to places where there weren't any previously.

So the outside walls are 1912, the floors are 1912, and many of the 
interior walls are 1912, but some of the flooring is 2012/2013, some of 
the interior design work is post-Y2K, we have original 1912 windows 
(extremely rare, I understand) that were bricked over that we opened up.  
There's a lot of space, and it can sell as a 4-bedroom house with a full 
bath and two half-baths (no bathtub, just a shower in the two halves).

Also, not everyone wants "new".  Some people prefer an older property 
with "character".  So value is also assigned based on what people want - 
do they want to restore an old home, or live somewhere modern?  We 
actually *thought* we wanted to do a restoration, and we did (well, our 
neighbor did a lot of the work, but that's another story), but it turns 
out we want something modern and energy-efficient - and with a secure 
entry area so strangers aren't coming up and knocking on our doors (like 
happened yesterday, in what we can only work out was an attempt to see if 
anyone was home so they could burgle the place - which is yet another 
story).

Jim

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On 18/10/13 21:08, Le_Forgeron wrote:
> Le 18/10/2013 20:36, Orchid Win7 v1 nous fit lire :
>> On 18/10/2013 10:36 AM, scott wrote:
>>> You should be grateful with what you have :-P On a good day I can get
>>> just above 3 Mb/s...
>>
>> Yeah, I was under the impression most of the country uses ADSL2, which
>> tops out at 8 Mb/s. I'm not actually sure how it's even *possible* to
>> have 40 Mb/s...
> 
> ADSL2+ tops at 20 Mb/s IP (or 28Mb/s ATM) for download, max 1Mb/s upload
> France allowed VDSL2 since 1 October 2013... if you are shorter than
> 1200m, it can provide far better rate. IIRC, 200Mb/s down and 50Mb/s
> up... if you are next to the NRA and the NRA is VDSL2 compatible...
> Half them for reality at less than 500 m of the NRA.
> 
> 
> Next to the NRA: rather: have direct access to it, your line being
> inside it!
> 
> Now, the usual NRA is up to 6000 m radius large, so the probability that
> you are less than 1200m from it is about 1/25 : 1 out of 25 house will
> be happy of VDSL2. On a city of 20 000 houses, that's not a so big
> number. (800)
> 
> 
Please note, I said 36-48 Mb/s _not_ MB/s

-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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>> Basically each wall is a sheet of plasterboard. So, looks pretty, but no
>> sound damping, and you can't make any holes in it. (It'll just snap in
>> half.)
>
> I imagine the landlord won't let you put holes in it, though it certainly
> is possible to drill holes in it.  But hanging stuff from the holes can
> be a bit tricky unless you use an anchor. :)

Some of the stuff already on the wall is falling off it. :-S

> Yeah, curtains should probably be on your "to buy" list sooner rather
> than later.

Indeed. Actually, since my grandparents owned their own company making 
custom curtains sold the world over, I think I know where I can get 
quality curtains. Trouble is, the flimsy little curtain poles I've got 
would be ripped straight off the wall. (Besides, who the hell wants 
their curtains hanging a foot away from the wall so it lets the light in 
around the edges??) I need to buy and put up some proper curtain rails. 
Looks like the space above the windows might actually be structural, so 
I can attach stuff to it...

>> Having said that, it's warmer since I turned my PC back on and set four
>> instances of POV-Ray running. (I've lost about two weeks of render time
>> due to this move...)
>
> That's one way to get the temperature up.  What kind of temperature do
> you find you sleep best at?

It seems I feel some comfortable (day and night) when the thermometer 
says between 21°C and 23°C. Below 20°C and I'm actually shivering. Above 
24°C is too hot.

> Wouldn't you know, I couldn't sleep with the heat on?  I have to have it
> around 55 degrees F in order to get a decent night's sleep.

Hehe, you Americans and your obsolete measurement systems...

>> Weird thing is, it says Honeywell on it - I thought they went out of
>> business about 30 years ago...
>
> Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to middle
> school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their manufacturing
> plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.

Mmm, OK.

Is it true they once made computational devices? Because that seems like 
a pretty random product combination - heating systems and computers...

> Some programmable thermostats have a removable front panel that has basic
> instructions on it (we've got two that are like that, but different makes/
> models).  If anything, there'll be a model number on it somewhere that
> you can get to without taking it off the wall.  Usually there's a
> battery, too (unless in the UK they run off a 220v circuit, which seems
> unlikely), so sometimes looking inside the battery cover might help find
> that info.

No instructions, but under the front plate there's a model number. I 
imagine it shouldn't be hard to locate the instructions. That's what we 
did with the washing machine. (Which, incidentally, has a drying 
function. I've never heard of such a thing before...)

>>> Oh, no, property values can (and do) go up.  I bought my first place
>>> out here in the mid-90's, paid about $89K for it (well, the bank did,
>>> and I paid them back when I sold the place and we moved in 2001.  The
>>> new place cost roughly double that (I think about $160K when all was
>>> said and done), and our realtor tells us that we should be able to get
>>> about $325K for it when we finish the last few little things that need
>>> finishing (a couple hardwood floors to professionally clean and
>>> refinish, and a little bit of painting).
>>
>> How does that work out after you correct for inflation?
>
> I'll still end up ahead.  We'll have about a year's worth of spare change
> in the bank.  The thing is, when you take a loan out for property, the
> loan is for the purchase price, and that doesn't adjust with inflation.

No, but the interest on the loan is 18x inflation. ;-)

>> I figure if you buy a property that's almost brand-new, once you sell
>> it, it's not brand-new any more, hence drastically less desirable. Also
>> half this block of flats appears to be empty currently, so...
>
> So you shouldn't have many noise complaints from your neighbors if you
> decide to listen to some music or watch TV. ;)

Having been threatened with physical violence for DARING to park in 
somebody else's space, I'm not going to risk it.

> Our house was built in 1912, with an addition added in the 1960's.  Real
> estate valuation is different than, say, a car (which generally
> depreciates).

Few things depreciate faster than computers. ;-) I bought a £250 CPU. I 
was thinking about selling it - until I realised that AMD still 
manufacture it, and you can buy it retail boxed for £21.

That's 1/11th of the original price I paid. *Clearly* no sane person is 
going to buy a second-hand CPU when they can get it brand new with 
manufacturer's guarantee for less than the cost of postage...

But, in general, most things seem to become more worthless the older 
they are. (Including me, sadly...)

> Again, it's supply and demand.  If there are 10 people who
> want to move into a neighborhood where there are only 3 houses up for
> sale, those 10 people will determine the value of the property simply
> because there's more demand than supply.  That can actually drive
> property values up.

And if there's already lots of empty flats?

> But there are other things that add to property value - local schools,
> available public transport, crime levels, access to parks and other green
> spaces, "walkability" (ie, can you get to the shops by walking or do you
> need to drive somewhere to get your groceries?), proximity to local
> employers, and so on.  The value isn't entirely in the specific property,
> but in the surrounding neigbourhood.  That's one reason why a real estate
> agent will pull "comps" - prices on nearby "comparable" properties that
> have recently sold.  That gives the agent an idea as to what the going
> prices are for houses like yours.

OK, so I now live on the shore of an artificial lake in an idyllic green 
parkland, with various water-sports centres and so forth. This end of 
the city is still fairly green in general, although they're slowing 
building on it.

Since this grid-square is half under water, there are no local shops. 
I've yet to work out where the nearest local shop is. There are various 
supermarkets in various directions, if you want to drive. Basically I 
don't really know my way around this side of the city yet; I've lived in 
the western corner all my life, and never really come out this way much. 
(As I say, there's not much here.)

Everybody seems to *say* this is a low-crime area. Then again, none of 
those people live hear. Last weekend some lovely chaps smashed several 
glass bottles in the middle of the car park, which I then had to drive 
over. But overall it seems *reasonably* low-crime.

> Then, too, there's improvements (as I mentioned before).

It's a block of flats. You can't really do much to it.

> Also, not everyone wants "new".  Some people prefer an older property
> with "character".

I'm not sure a government-funded block of cheap flats is what most 
people would call "character".

But hey, I ain't trying to sell this place just yet!

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:54:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> I imagine the landlord won't let you put holes in it, though it
>> certainly is possible to drill holes in it.  But hanging stuff from the
>> holes can be a bit tricky unless you use an anchor. :)
> 
> Some of the stuff already on the wall is falling off it. :-S

Probably no anchors for the stuff. :)

>> Yeah, curtains should probably be on your "to buy" list sooner rather
>> than later.
> 
> Indeed. Actually, since my grandparents owned their own company making
> custom curtains sold the world over, I think I know where I can get
> quality curtains. Trouble is, the flimsy little curtain poles I've got
> would be ripped straight off the wall. (Besides, who the hell wants
> their curtains hanging a foot away from the wall so it lets the light in
> around the edges??) I need to buy and put up some proper curtain rails.
> Looks like the space above the windows might actually be structural, so
> I can attach stuff to it...

Normally across the top of a window you'll find structural wood that's 
sufficient for attaching the rails.  Building codes being what they are, 
you can't have a hole in the wall (which is what a window is) without 
structure to hold the rest of the wall up.  Have you seen pictures of 
building construction (or, for that matter, buildings being constructed)?

You can pick out where the windows are even if they're not installed yet 
because of how the structure is built.

>>> Having said that, it's warmer since I turned my PC back on and set
>>> four instances of POV-Ray running. (I've lost about two weeks of
>>> render time due to this move...)
>>
>> That's one way to get the temperature up.  What kind of temperature do
>> you find you sleep best at?
> 
> It seems I feel some comfortable (day and night) when the thermometer
> says between 21°C and 23°C. Below 20°C and I'm actually shivering. Above
> 24°C is too hot.

But when you go to sleep, you have blankets and sheets, too.  A cooler 
temperature is usually a good thing.

>> Wouldn't you know, I couldn't sleep with the heat on?  I have to have
>> it around 55 degrees F in order to get a decent night's sleep.
> 
> Hehe, you Americans and your obsolete measurement systems...

It's what we're used to.  You use miles rather than kilometers, so you're 
only partially on a sensible system.  We inherited our system from you. ;)

~11°C - though maybe 60°F (~14°C), if you must. ;)  (Not precise - if you 
want that, Google can convert it for you - I'm just doing a quick 
conversion with a division by 2 rather than multiplying by 9/5 because 
I'm lazy).

>>> Weird thing is, it says Honeywell on it - I thought they went out of
>>> business about 30 years ago...
>>
>> Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to
>> middle school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their
>> manufacturing plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.
> 
> Mmm, OK.
> 
> Is it true they once made computational devices? Because that seems like
> a pretty random product combination - heating systems and computers...

Yep, they did/do.  They're a technology company, but the consumer 
products most people run into are thermostats.

>> Some programmable thermostats have a removable front panel that has
>> basic instructions on it (we've got two that are like that, but
>> different makes/
>> models).  If anything, there'll be a model number on it somewhere that
>> you can get to without taking it off the wall.  Usually there's a
>> battery, too (unless in the UK they run off a 220v circuit, which seems
>> unlikely), so sometimes looking inside the battery cover might help
>> find that info.
> 
> No instructions, but under the front plate there's a model number. I
> imagine it shouldn't be hard to locate the instructions. That's what we
> did with the washing machine. (Which, incidentally, has a drying
> function. I've never heard of such a thing before...)

A combo washer/dryer - that sounds handy.  I think that's what our 
friends in High Wycombe have.

But good, that's a step in the right direction to figuring out how to use 
the thing.

>>>> Oh, no, property values can (and do) go up.  I bought my first place
>>>> out here in the mid-90's, paid about $89K for it (well, the bank did,
>>>> and I paid them back when I sold the place and we moved in 2001.  The
>>>> new place cost roughly double that (I think about $160K when all was
>>>> said and done), and our realtor tells us that we should be able to
>>>> get about $325K for it when we finish the last few little things that
>>>> need finishing (a couple hardwood floors to professionally clean and
>>>> refinish, and a little bit of painting).
>>>
>>> How does that work out after you correct for inflation?
>>
>> I'll still end up ahead.  We'll have about a year's worth of spare
>> change in the bank.  The thing is, when you take a loan out for
>> property, the loan is for the purchase price, and that doesn't adjust
>> with inflation.
> 
> No, but the interest on the loan is 18x inflation. ;-)

No, because the interest is calculated based on the purchase price.  
6.25% of 140,000 is the same regardless of the rate of inflation.

>>> I figure if you buy a property that's almost brand-new, once you sell
>>> it, it's not brand-new any more, hence drastically less desirable.
>>> Also half this block of flats appears to be empty currently, so...
>>
>> So you shouldn't have many noise complaints from your neighbors if you
>> decide to listen to some music or watch TV. ;)
> 
> Having been threatened with physical violence for DARING to park in
> somebody else's space, I'm not going to risk it.

That's reasonable, though it seems that the threat of physical violence 
is a bit over the top.  I might be disinclined to invite that particular 
neighbor over to the housewarming party.  Then again, maybe they were 
having a bad day (it's not like that never happens).

>> Our house was built in 1912, with an addition added in the 1960's. 
>> Real estate valuation is different than, say, a car (which generally
>> depreciates).
> 
> Few things depreciate faster than computers. ;-) I bought a £250 CPU. I
> was thinking about selling it - until I realised that AMD still
> manufacture it, and you can buy it retail boxed for £21.
> 
> That's 1/11th of the original price I paid. *Clearly* no sane person is
> going to buy a second-hand CPU when they can get it brand new with
> manufacturer's guarantee for less than the cost of postage...

That's because of the advance in technology, and people buying computers 
value the latest and greatest.

People buying real estate, though, have other factors they're considering.

The counterexample to your CPU example is the Mona Lisa, or a Stradavarius 
violin.  Obviously those items are things that the value has not gone 
down for over the years.

> But, in general, most things seem to become more worthless the older
> they are. (Including me, sadly...)

OK, knock that shit off right now.  I mean it. :)

>> Again, it's supply and demand.  If there are 10 people who want to move
>> into a neighborhood where there are only 3 houses up for sale, those 10
>> people will determine the value of the property simply because there's
>> more demand than supply.  That can actually drive property values up.
> 
> And if there's already lots of empty flats?

Then the price is lower, but it still is higher now than it was 20 years 
ago, partially because of inflation, and partly because of other 
environmental factors (see below).

>> But there are other things that add to property value - local schools,
>> available public transport, crime levels, access to parks and other
>> green spaces, "walkability" (ie, can you get to the shops by walking or
>> do you need to drive somewhere to get your groceries?), proximity to
>> local employers, and so on.  The value isn't entirely in the specific
>> property, but in the surrounding neigbourhood.  That's one reason why a
>> real estate agent will pull "comps" - prices on nearby "comparable"
>> properties that have recently sold.  That gives the agent an idea as to
>> what the going prices are for houses like yours.
> 
> OK, so I now live on the shore of an artificial lake in an idyllic green
> parkland, with various water-sports centres and so forth. This end of
> the city is still fairly green in general, although they're slowing
> building on it.

Sounds like a nice area.

> Since this grid-square is half under water, there are no local shops.
> I've yet to work out where the nearest local shop is. There are various
> supermarkets in various directions, if you want to drive. Basically I
> don't really know my way around this side of the city yet; I've lived in
> the western corner all my life, and never really come out this way much.
> (As I say, there's not much here.)

Some people prefer having the shops farther away, too - because it means 
you don't have non-local traffic in the neighborhood (which can affect 
crime).  We had a big argument in our local community about the grocery 
store that's half a mile or so up the road from us putting in a fuel 
station.  The concern was that the neighborhood would see a lot more 
traffic from outside the neighborhood because of the gas station, and we 
already have parking problems here (there are shops up there as well, and 
there's insufficient parking).  The businesses love it, generally, 
because it's drawing more customers in for them.  But the residents 
generally don't like it because - especially for those who live near the 
shops - if they park on the street, there may be customers parked in 
front of their house.  Harder to have visitors over, etc.

> Everybody seems to *say* this is a low-crime area. Then again, none of
> those people live hear. Last weekend some lovely chaps smashed several
> glass bottles in the middle of the car park, which I then had to drive
> over. But overall it seems *reasonably* low-crime.

Well, yeah, "low-crime" doesn't mean "crime-free".  Our neighborhood is 
generally a low crime area as well, but we've had a string of burglaries 
(in fact, on Thursday we think someone attempted to burgle our home - but 
we were here, much to their surprise).  The technique used requires two 
people - one person rings the front bell, the other goes around to the 
back door.  If they don't get an answer, they assume the owners aren't 
home, and they break in and steal jewelry (typically - easier to hide 
than other stuff).

But we don't tend to answer our door if we're not expecting anyone, 
because we don't deal with door-to-door salespeople, missionaries, etc 
(we have a "no solicitations" sign up in the front window).

Amy answered the back door when they started knocking on it, and the 
woman there asked for directions to an address over a mile away from here 
- and SLC streets are a grid, so finding an address is trivially easy.  
If you're on 1000 S 900 E and the address is at 500 E 700 S, finding the 
address is pretty easy - 4 blocks west (900 E - 500 E) and 3 blocks north 
(1000 S - 700 S).  You have to be pretty dumb not to understand that.

And besides, who goes around to the back door of a house to ask for 
directions when the front door isn't answered?

The woman at the front door rang the bell a second time, and I answered 
it, and got a completely different story.  She was asking for a 
"Kimberly" (nobody here by that name), and then changed stories and said 
that she'd dropped her kid sister off here 3 days ago and hadn't heard 
from her since.  But if you have a missing family member, you don't go 
looking after 3 days, you call the cops and file a missing persons report.

Then the one from the back left and got in a car, and her accomplice at 
the front door left at that point and got into the same car and they 
drove off.

>> Then, too, there's improvements (as I mentioned before).
> 
> It's a block of flats. You can't really do much to it.

Well, yeah, flats are different than a house.

>> Also, not everyone wants "new".  Some people prefer an older property
>> with "character".
> 
> I'm not sure a government-funded block of cheap flats is what most
> people would call "character".
>
> But hey, I ain't trying to sell this place just yet!

When you do get ready to, just ask the landlord what you can/can't do.  :)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 19/10/2013 8:02 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:54:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
>>> Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to
>>> middle school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their
>>> manufacturing plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.
>>
>> Mmm, OK.
>>
>> Is it true they once made computational devices? Because that seems like
>> a pretty random product combination - heating systems and computers...
>
> Yep, they did/do.  They're a technology company, but the consumer
> products most people run into are thermostats.
>

My first real job was with Honeywell, testing PCBs for the H 316.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_316

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 21:10:15 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 19/10/2013 8:02 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:54:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>
>>>> Nope, Honeywell is a Minnesota-based company, in fact - I went to
>>>> middle school ("Jr. High" as we called it then) near one of their
>>>> manufacturing plants.  They make pretty decent thermostats.
>>>
>>> Mmm, OK.
>>>
>>> Is it true they once made computational devices? Because that seems
>>> like a pretty random product combination - heating systems and
>>> computers...
>>
>> Yep, they did/do.  They're a technology company, but the consumer
>> products most people run into are thermostats.
>>
>>
> My first real job was with Honeywell, testing PCBs for the H 316.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_316

Now you mention it, I think you'd mentioned that before. :)  They have/
had locations all over the place - I've got a friend in Arizona who 
worked for them there as well - about 30 years ago.

Jim

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