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OK, as some of you may remember, I have been to 2 job interviews in my
life so far. On Wednesday, I'm going to number 3.
Don't worry. I already know I won't get the job. This isn't just an
interview; they're talking about having a panel of 4 department bosses
grill me for 2 hours, and then they're giving me a test, and then
there's some kind of team interaction exercise, and then there's
something else after that, and at the end I'm supposed to give a
presentation. /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
getting this job.
On the other hand, presumably it'll be good interview experience. When
you think about it, most of my competitors will have been to hundreds of
thousands of interviews. They are all interview experts. Compared to
that, I don't stand a chance. So getting more interview experience has
to be a good thing, right?
Looking over the job description again, it says "junior developer
analyst". The "analyst" part worries me. But we'll see. Reading the
description, they want a degree in CS or similar, and ideally 1+ years
of commercial development experience. Conspicuous by its absence is any
mention of /what technology/ they're using. Is this a C++ application?
Java? VB? C#? COBOL? FORTRAN? APL??? It doesn't say. (Neither does the
product website, but then, /that/ isn't unusual.)
OK, so I know vaguely what the product they sell actually does. I know
where the building is. I need to figure out what to wear. Is there
anything else I can actually do to "prepare" for this?
(I mean, aside from practising being given the third degree by the
Spanish Inquisition. :-P )
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On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:44:04 +0100, Invisible wrote:
> OK, as some of you may remember, I have been to 2 job interviews in my
> life so far. On Wednesday, I'm going to number 3.
Good luck with it, Andy. Remember to breathe, and one of the best pieces
of advice I received from a friend of the family before my last in-person
interview was this: keep your pants on. ;)
The only people who are "interview experts" are people who can't keep a
job.
Jim
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On 20/08/2012 3:44 PM, Invisible wrote:
> I'm supposed to give a presentation. /Clearly/ I don't stand a
> snowball's chance in hell of getting this job.
Here is an idea: Prepare beforehand a presentation about something you
know very well, say Haskell. Make it short and keep it simple. If you
can do some power point slides then save them onto a flash drive. It is
good to say that you have done some preparation. They might not be used
but brownie points anyway. Don't over prepare, though, send a maximum of
a couple of hours on it.
Good luck and the best of British. :-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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Invisible <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> Don't worry. I already know I won't get the job.
Good. Now that you got rid of that pressure for not failing, you can fail so
epically and beautifully that they feel hard-pressed to give you a chance.
Instead of trying and failing to be another bozo in a suit, just try your best
to show them you are a computer geek at heart.
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Am 20.08.2012 20:14, schrieb nemesis:
> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Don't worry. I already know I won't get the job.
>
> Good. Now that you got rid of that pressure for not failing, you can fail so
> epically and beautifully that they feel hard-pressed to give you a chance.
> Instead of trying and failing to be another bozo in a suit, just try your best
> to show them you are a computer geek at heart.
Word!
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On 20/08/2012 07:14 PM, nemesis wrote:
> Good. Now that you got rid of that pressure for not failing, you can fail so
> epically and beautifully that they feel hard-pressed to give you a chance.
> Instead of trying and failing to be another bozo in a suit, just try your best
> to show them you are a computer geek at heart.
Hmm. In every job that must be done, these is an element of fun. You
/find/ the fun, and SNAP... the interviewer's gone insane!
No, wait...
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On 20/08/2012 04:19 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Good luck with it, Andy. Remember to breathe, and one of the best pieces
> of advice I received from a friend of the family before my last in-person
> interview was this: keep your pants on. ;)
Marcus suggested the following: At least they can't string you up by
your balls with a cheese wire.
That guy is slightly odd...
> The only people who are "interview experts" are people who can't keep a
> job.
I didn't say they're good employees. I said they are more likely to get
hired.
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On 20/08/2012 06:59 PM, Stephen wrote:
> Here is an idea: Prepare beforehand a presentation about something you
> know very well, say Haskell. Make it short and keep it simple. If you
> can do some power point slides then save them onto a flash drive. It is
> good to say that you have done some preparation. They might not be used
> but brownie points anyway. Don't over prepare, though, send a maximum of
> a couple of hours on it.
Heh, I remember that time I had to do a presentation at uni. You
remember the old projectors with the light table and the mirror? Do you
know what it looks like when you puke on one? :-S
At any rate, it might be amusing to try to put together a presentation.
I very much doubt I could do it in front of actual humans though. (How
do you get over the fact that your audience doesn't give a damn, for
example?)
> Good luck and the best of British. :-)
Heh, thanks.
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Am 21.08.2012 11:17, schrieb Invisible:
> On 20/08/2012 06:59 PM, Stephen wrote:
>> Here is an idea: Prepare beforehand a presentation about something you
>> know very well, say Haskell. Make it short and keep it simple. If you
>> can do some power point slides then save them onto a flash drive. It is
>> good to say that you have done some preparation. They might not be used
>> but brownie points anyway. Don't over prepare, though, send a maximum of
>> a couple of hours on it.
>
> Heh, I remember that time I had to do a presentation at uni. You
> remember the old projectors with the light table and the mirror? Do you
> know what it looks like when you puke on one? :-S
Please, tell me you didn't! >_<
> At any rate, it might be amusing to try to put together a presentation.
> I very much doubt I could do it in front of actual humans though. (How
> do you get over the fact that your audience doesn't give a damn, for
> example?)
If you're positively excited about it, you might have a chance.
Best advice when standing in front of a crowd looking at you: Find a
friendly face. (And then talk to that face, or whatever other friendly
ones you can find. Don't address the audience - address the individual
people sitting there.)
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>> Heh, I remember that time I had to do a presentation at uni. You
>> remember the old projectors with the light table and the mirror? Do you
>> know what it looks like when you puke on one? :-S
>
> Please, tell me you didn't! >_<
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exMCfpUG5r4
>> (How
>> do you get over the fact that your audience doesn't give a damn, for
>> example?)
>
> If you're positively excited about it, you might have a chance.
Perhaps. But it's difficult to come across as excited and passionate
when you're terrified to your mortal core.
> Best advice when standing in front of a crowd looking at you: Find a
> friendly face. (And then talk to that face, or whatever other friendly
> ones you can find. Don't address the audience - address the individual
> people sitting there.)
I don't know, man. If you're in a small gathering of people and you're
having a private conversation with just one of them, that might come
across as rude.
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Invisible wrote:
> >> (How
> >> do you get over the fact that your audience doesn't give a damn, for
> >> example?)
> >
> > If you're positively excited about it, you might have a chance.
>
> Perhaps. But it's difficult to come across as excited and passionate
> when you're terrified to your mortal core.
People have empathy. If you are excited and passionate, those in your audience
will feel some of that themselves. Having been in your situation themselves,
they will also understand your nervousness.
> > Best advice when standing in front of a crowd looking at you: Find a
> > friendly face. (And then talk to that face, or whatever other friendly
> > ones you can find. Don't address the audience - address the individual
> > people sitting there.)
One of the best things I learned at instructor school is that it is normal to be
nervous.
And indeed, after a few months of daily presentations, I found that I'd give a
lousy lecture if I didn't feel any butterflies at the lectern. Since then I
cultivate a small degree of stage fright, if necessary.
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On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 10:14:02 +0100, Invisible wrote:
> On 20/08/2012 04:19 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Good luck with it, Andy. Remember to breathe, and one of the best
>> pieces of advice I received from a friend of the family before my last
>> in-person interview was this: keep your pants on. ;)
>
> Marcus suggested the following: At least they can't string you up by
> your balls with a cheese wire.
>
> That guy is slightly odd...
>
>> The only people who are "interview experts" are people who can't keep a
>> job.
>
> I didn't say they're good employees. I said they are more likely to get
> hired.
Maybe before they've had a bunch of short-term jobs, but employers tend
to look at employment history, and being a 'job hopper' tends to rate a
prospective employee much lower. There are costs to bringing someone
onboard that if they don't think they'll make that back, they're less
likely to make the investment.
Jim
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On 21/08/2012 10:17 AM, Invisible wrote:
> On 20/08/2012 06:59 PM, Stephen wrote:
>
> Heh, I remember that time I had to do a presentation at uni. You
> remember the old projectors with the light table and the mirror?
Oh! Yes.
> Do you know what it looks like when you puke on one? :-S
>
And you said that Marcus is slightly odd. :-P
> At any rate, it might be amusing to try to put together a presentation.
> I very much doubt I could do it in front of actual humans though. (How
> do you get over the fact that your audience doesn't give a damn, for
> example?)
>
That is a difficult one. I crack jokes and try to interact with the
audience. But the thing I don't do is worry about it.
The first time I had to speak to an audience I was totally unprepared.
It was at a union meeting and someone else was chairing it. He said "I
cannot stay but Stevie will take over."
Bar Steward!
So I stood up and talked (or was that gabbled?)
One trick is to pick someone and talk to them but remember to change the
person often.
>> Good luck and the best of British. :-)
>
> Heh, thanks.
In the present climate I don't know if that is the best wish. ;-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 21/08/2012 11:52 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> Best advice when standing in front of a crowd looking at you: Find a
>> friendly face. (And then talk to that face, or whatever other friendly
>> ones you can find. Don't address the audience - address the individual
>> people sitting there.)
>
> I don't know, man. If you're in a small gathering of people and you're
> having a private conversation with just one of them, that might come
> across as rude.
No it is not. If your audience have any feelings at all the person that
you pick will help you by looking encouraging. They don't want you to
fail they want to get the best out of you.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 20/08/2012 03:44 PM, Invisible wrote:
> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
> getting this job.
Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
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Am 22.08.2012 13:06, schrieb Orchid Win7 v1:
> On 20/08/2012 03:44 PM, Invisible wrote:
>> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
>> getting this job.
>
> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
:-D
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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On 20/08/2012 03:44 PM, Invisible wrote:
> > /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
> > getting this job.
>
> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
see? I knew the übber geek with no social skillz strategy would win out!
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On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:06:23 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 20/08/2012 03:44 PM, Invisible wrote:
>> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting this
>> job.
>
> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
Sounds promising. How about that - you have a shot at a job after being
made redundant but before you actually finished up; I was made redundant
16 months ago, and am still looking for full-time employment. :)
I may need to get some advice from you as the new "interview expert". ;)
Jim
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Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 20/08/2012 03:44 PM, Invisible wrote:
> > /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
> > getting this job.
>
> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
Excellent news, indeed!
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On 22/08/2012 05:35 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> I may need to get some advice from you as the new "interview expert". ;)
Ask me /after/ I actually /get/ the job. :-/
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On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:17:04 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 22/08/2012 05:35 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I may need to get some advice from you as the new "interview expert".
>> ;)
>
> Ask me /after/ I actually /get/ the job. :-/
It sounds promising - good luck!
Jim
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On 22/08/2012 12:06 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 20/08/2012 03:44 PM, Invisible wrote:
>> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
>> getting this job.
>
> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
I hope so too. When will you find out?
--
Regards
Stephen
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>> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
>
> I hope so too. When will you find out?
That's a good question...
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On 22/08/2012 8:45 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
>>
>> I hope so too. When will you find out?
>
> That's a good question...
It is good that you came away from the interview feeling positive. What
did they say that gave you the opinion that they might hire you?
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 22/08/2012 09:16 PM, Stephen wrote:
> It is good that you came away from the interview feeling positive. What
> did they say that gave you the opinion that they might hire you?
Well, they seemed convinced of my technical capabilities. If anything,
they seemed more worried that I'd get bored and leave in five minutes
flat. But seriously, everything they had a problem with, I gave them an
answer that appeared to satisfy them. They seemed pretty on-board with
what I'm saying.
Usually an interview leaves you feeling that you did absolutely
everything wrong. This is the only interview I've ever seen where it
seemed that it could hardly have gone much better. I mean, the interview
itself; the job could /always/ be better somehow.
It'll be interesting to see whether my assessment of the interview is in
any way correlated to reality, of course...
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On 22-8-2012 23:19, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 22/08/2012 09:16 PM, Stephen wrote:
>> It is good that you came away from the interview feeling positive. What
>> did they say that gave you the opinion that they might hire you?
>
> Well, they seemed convinced of my technical capabilities. If anything,
> they seemed more worried that I'd get bored and leave in five minutes
> flat.
If they need an informed opinion about that, they can ask here. We can
all testify that you will never leave your job, no matter how boring and
underpaid.
--
Women are the canaries of science. When they are underrepresented
it is a strong indication that non-scientific factors play a role
and the concentration of incorruptible scientists is also too low
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On 23/08/2012 6:37 PM, andrel wrote:
> On 22-8-2012 23:19, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> On 22/08/2012 09:16 PM, Stephen wrote:
>>> It is good that you came away from the interview feeling positive. What
>>> did they say that gave you the opinion that they might hire you?
>>
>> Well, they seemed convinced of my technical capabilities. If anything,
>> they seemed more worried that I'd get bored and leave in five minutes
>> flat.
>
> If they need an informed opinion about that, they can ask here. We can
> all testify that you will never leave your job, no matter how boring and
> underpaid.
>
>
LOL
Meow! ;-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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Le 2012-08-22 07:06, Orchid Win7 v1 a écrit :
> On 20/08/2012 03:44 PM, Invisible wrote:
>> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
>> getting this job.
>
> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
So you didn't puke on the projector, I take it?
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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>> Well, they seemed convinced of my technical capabilities. If anything,
>> they seemed more worried that I'd get bored and leave in five minutes
>> flat.
>
> If they need an informed opinion about that, they can ask here. We can
> all testify that you will never leave your job, no matter how boring and
> underpaid.
Oh, I think they're already convinced of that. 10 years working for one
company will do that... ;-)
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>> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
>> getting this job.
>
> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
I just got a letter today.
Apparently I am not good enough. (!)
At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could
have done...
Oh well, I guess I'm back to being bereft of hope.
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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
> >> getting this job.
> >
> > Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
>
> I just got a letter today.
>
> Apparently I am not good enough. (!)
>
> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could
> have done...
>
> Oh well, I guess I'm back to being bereft of hope.
you need a tattoo and a nose ring
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Am 24.08.2012 18:29, schrieb Orchid Win7 v1:
>>> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
>>> getting this job.
>>
>> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
>
> I just got a letter today.
>
> Apparently I am not good enough. (!)
>
> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could
> have done...
>
> Oh well, I guess I'm back to being bereft of hope.
You may well have been good enough for the job. Possibly there was just
someone a bit better this time.
Keep on going!
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Am 24.08.2012 19:59, schrieb nemesis:
> Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>>> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of
>>>> getting this job.
>>>
>>> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
>>
>> I just got a letter today.
>>
>> Apparently I am not good enough. (!)
>>
>> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could
>> have done...
>>
>> Oh well, I guess I'm back to being bereft of hope.
>
> you need a tattoo and a nose ring
Or instead of a tattoo, get a branding along with the nose ring; that
way, you can still make a living as a piece of cattle if all else
fails... >_<
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On 24-8-2012 9:43, Invisible wrote:
>>> Well, they seemed convinced of my technical capabilities. If anything,
>>> they seemed more worried that I'd get bored and leave in five minutes
>>> flat.
>>
>> If they need an informed opinion about that, they can ask here. We can
>> all testify that you will never leave your job, no matter how boring and
>> underpaid.
>
> Oh, I think they're already convinced of that. 10 years working for one
> company will do that... ;-)
No, I am working now for 23 years in this hospital. People will
correctly assume it is a interesting job with daily new developments and
a great assortment of fantastic colleagues.
They will assume the same from you, unless you have explicitly told them
otherwise. (Which would be extremely foolish, so I wouldn't be surprised
if you did ;) )
--
Women are the canaries of science. When they are underrepresented
it is a strong indication that non-scientific factors play a role
and the concentration of incorruptible scientists is also too low
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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> On 24-8-2012 9:43, Invisible wrote:
> >>> Well, they seemed convinced of my technical capabilities. If anything,
> >>> they seemed more worried that I'd get bored and leave in five minutes
> >>> flat.
> >>
> >> If they need an informed opinion about that, they can ask here. We can
> >> all testify that you will never leave your job, no matter how boring and
> >> underpaid.
> >
> > Oh, I think they're already convinced of that. 10 years working for one
> > company will do that... ;-)
>
> No, I am working now for 23 years in this hospital. People will
> correctly assume it is a interesting job with daily new developments and
> a great assortment of fantastic colleagues.
are you telling me it is not as in "Scrubs"?
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On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:29:28 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>> /Clearly/ I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting this
>>> job.
>>
>> Holy hell... I think they might actually hire me! o_O
>
> I just got a letter today.
>
> Apparently I am not good enough. (!)
>
> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could
> have done...
>
> Oh well, I guess I'm back to being bereft of hope.
Dust your pants off and move on to the next one. Interviewing isn't
about the jobs you don't get, it's about the one you eventually *do* get.
But I know exactly how you feel - I told you about the company in Oregon
that I flew out to interview with, and even after the interview (but
before meeting up with the HR person and the hiring manager), I thought
things went very well. I was quite stunned as well. My conculsion:
They weren't the right company for me, and if they had offered something,
I probably wouldn't have been happy there.
Why did I come to this conclusion? Because I felt I did everything right
and presented what they had specifically asked for. So, if I did things
the way I would've done them as an employee, they'd have not been happy
with the results, AND I might've relocated for a job that wasn't going to
last long because of the working conditions.
So in my case (and as yours) - it's their loss.
Jim
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On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:01:24 +0200, clipka wrote:
> You may well have been good enough for the job. Possibly there was just
> someone a bit better this time.
That's also a possibility. Another position I'd applied for I was
considered a very strong candidate, but they found someone who was just
as strong a writer *and* who had worked with the software before (I
hadn't - but now I have, a little bit).
It happens.
Jim
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Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
> Apparently I am not good enough. (!)
>
> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could
> have done...
>
I repeat my earlier words:
"If you don't get the job, it doesn't mean you failed nor you are
hopeless - it *just* means they liked someone more than you."
So keep on going, eventually you'll catch the firm that you want and
that wants you.
-Aero
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One thing I detest about job interviews is that you have to lie even if
you really mean to be honest. You have to lie in order to convey your
true skill properly. (Not that I have extensive experience on job
interviews, but this is from what I have gathered.)
For example, suppose that you are an experienced programmer and have a
good grasp of how imperative/OO languages (either compiled or scripting)
work, and have extensive experience on some languages, but only a very
modest understanding of PHP in particular: You know the basics, you have
perhaps written a hundred of lines of it in total, but you know how it
works and what it offers. Most importantly, if you had to, you could
quickly learn to use it proficiently and competently.
However, job interviews don't generally ask you that. Instead, they ask
you how much you have programmed in PHP.
You have two choices: Tell the truth, or "stretch it a bit".
If you tell them that you have only minimal experience of PHP in particular,
they will probably mark you as not a very good candidate for a PHP
programming job. Your assurances that you can learn the language quickly
and that's not just BS will probably not help much.
The other possibility is to outright lie: You can claim that you have
programmed in PHP quite a lot.
In a sense you are not "lying" per se. Rather, you are answering the
question that they *really* want to ask, rather than the question they
*think* they want to ask. What they really want to know is how easily
you could start programming in PHP, not how much you have programmed
with it in the past.
However, in order to convey your true expertise you have to lie. The bad
thing about this is that you can get caught redhanded. If they start asking
some minutia about PHP you might not know the answers on the spot, and you
will end up looking like an opportunistic liar.
They might well end up hiring someone who has programmed more in PHP (or
at least claims to be) but who's not very good at it.
--
- Warp
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On 24-8-2012 23:38, nemesis wrote:
> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> On 24-8-2012 9:43, Invisible wrote:
>>>>> Well, they seemed convinced of my technical capabilities. If anything,
>>>>> they seemed more worried that I'd get bored and leave in five minutes
>>>>> flat.
>>>>
>>>> If they need an informed opinion about that, they can ask here. We can
>>>> all testify that you will never leave your job, no matter how boring and
>>>> underpaid.
>>>
>>> Oh, I think they're already convinced of that. 10 years working for one
>>> company will do that... ;-)
>>
>> No, I am working now for 23 years in this hospital. People will
>> correctly assume it is a interesting job with daily new developments and
>> a great assortment of fantastic colleagues.
>
> are you telling me it is not as in "Scrubs"?
What is "Scrubs"?
GIYF
probably not. I am doing research. IME there is even in the hospital not
enough going on to write a drama series about. There is a lot you could
make interesting television out of, but that won't sell because it is
too scary, and I am not talking blood here. ;)
--
Women are the canaries of science. When they are underrepresented
it is a strong indication that non-scientific factors play a role
and the concentration of incorruptible scientists is also too low
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On 25/08/2012 08:18 AM, Warp wrote:
> They might well end up hiring someone who has programmed more in PHP (or
> at least claims to be) but who's not very good at it.
This is what I hate about IT jobs in particular.
If I wanted to hire a carpenter to build me a decorative oak chest, I
might grab a bunch of carpenters and ask each of them if they've ever
built decorative furniture before, or perhaps whether they've ever built
a chest before.
If an IT manager did it, he would grab a bunch of carpenters and say
"have you ever built anything out of oak before?"
One guy might be a master carpenter who's spent 30 years building
high-end decorative furniture from just about every wood you can name,
BUT NOT OAK. Another guy might be some rookie who barely knows what he's
doing, has only ever put up shelves or fitted window frames, knows
NOTHING about making furniture, never mind DECORATIVE furniture
(slapping some sheets of wood together is completely different to
curving a beautiful masterpiece), but the guy DID once nail some sheets
of oak together.
Obviously, I would hire the first guy, because he has the skills that
matter. But the IT manager? He's a ****ing moron, so he would hire the
second guy. Just because the second guy has some superficial attribute
which is nearly completely unimportant.
Likewise, when an IT manager wants to hire a C# programmer, the first
thing they do is throw away all the CVs that don't say C# on them somewhere.
Now, to be fair, there are people who go to college or whatever, learn
Java, do the minimum amount of work to get their shiny qualification,
and then STOP LEARNING. They then spend the next 20 years writing Java
from 9 to 5. And when they go home, they stop thinking about
programming. They never make any attempt to learn anything new. And if,
for example, Java were to suddenly vanish, these people would have to
spend years painfully "retraining" (by which I mean learning to program
from scratch all over again).
You do NOT want to hire one of these people for a C# role. And by
filtering out CVs that don't say C# on them, you achieve that.
But then you come to somebody like me. My CV has, like, a dozen
programming languages on it. But it doesn't say C#. And, indeed, I have
never written any C# at all. But give me a few months, and I could
/learn/ it. Quite easily, I imagine. I don't know C#, but I have
something vastly more important to offer: I'm a skilled programmer. Not
some drone who learned to copy the examples from a lecture handout with
a few minor tweaks.
But, because my CV does not say C# on it, I would never even be
/interviewed/ for such a job. Which sucks, frankly.
Having just said all that, the interview I went to on Wednesday was
refreshing in that the interviewers had actually studied my CV, and it
was perfectly clear to them that I had the technical aptitude for what
they wanted. They never once questioned my technical skills. Their only
questions were about other things - how well I would work in a team, etc.
The interview went really well; I was able to tell them all about
LogicBox, and in a handful of sentences make them understand what it
does and why that's interesting. I think I impressed them with my
descriptive skills.
And yet... I still don't have a job. And from the postdate on the
letter, it took only an hour or two for them to decide. Apparently I was
that bad. (The letter says something about it being a "difficult
decision" due to the "extremely high calibre of the applicants". But
they probably say that to everybody.)
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On 24/08/2012 5:29 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
> I just got a letter today.
>
> Apparently I am not good enough. (!)
>
> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could
> have done...
>
> Oh well, I guess I'm back to being bereft of hope.
I commiserate but that is life. It is their loss as well.
The thing to do is not to brood about it and go for the next one.
> And yet... I still don't have a job. And from the postdate on the
> letter, it took only an hour or two for them to decide. Apparently I
> was that bad.
No, no, no. They just thought that someone else fitted better, that is all.
> (The letter says something about it being a "difficult
> decision" due to the "extremely high calibre of the applicants". But
> they probably say that to everybody.)
No, not true. Although it is a polite lie it is not always the case.
You came away from the interview feeling that you were in the running so
you probably were. It is just unfortunate (for you) that someone else
got the job. It may have been something trivial such as he lived two
miles away.
When I was working at Motorola my boss told me that he wasn't going to
hire someone because he had a copy of the daily mail in his pocket. Work
that one out. o_O
Anyway don't despair and keep trying.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 25/08/2012 10:25 AM, Stephen wrote:
> When I was working at Motorola my boss told me that he wasn't going to
> hire someone because he had a copy of the daily mail in his pocket. Work
> that one out. o_O
Personally, the story I like is this one:
The hiring manager goes over to the pile of CVs, grabs half of it,
and chucks it in the bin. "Well, the LAST thing this company needs is
unlucky people!"
Debate among yourselves which half was the "lucky" half. :-P
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Le 2012-08-25 04:35, Orchid Win7 v1 a écrit :
>
> Likewise, when an IT manager wants to hire a C# programmer, the first
> thing they do is throw away all the CVs that don't say C# on them
> somewhere.
>
No. Having had to do some serious recruiting before, I can tell you
that this is not the case. The IT manager will know that someone who
has a lot of C, C++ or Java experience will be able to pick up on C#
rather quickly. The HR person who receives all the CVs and doesn't know
the difference between C#, CICS/IMS, and TCP/IP apart from the fact that
"they're both buzzwords the IT folks use" is the one who will only send
the ones that have "C#" in them to the IT manager.
My girlfriend in the late 90s was that HR person. She had to review
hundreds of CVs every week for the various Y2K projects her employer was
driving, and she would come home at night with dozens CVs that she would
put in different piles after going through them for 3-4 seconds each.
"Blah blah blah DB/2 blah blah Oracle ... ok this one goes in the DBA
pile", "Blah blah pc support blah blah linux blah blah Solaris blah ...
This one's for the Unix pile", etc...
I once joked to her that I would pirnt my CV under an assumed named and
would love to see in which pile i ended up.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
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/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:35:00 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Obviously, I would hire the first guy, because he has the skills that
> matter. But the IT manager? He's a ****ing moron, so he would hire the
> second guy. Just because the second guy has some superficial attribute
> which is nearly completely unimportant.
It's not really unimportant when hiring for a programming position,
though - if there's existing code that needs to be maintained, you would
want someone who knows the language it was written in.
Jim
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To continue the story a bit, even the "Thanks, but no thanks" -letter
isn't always the end of the story.
I received such letter ~10 years ago myself. Couple of weeks after that
I received a phone call - a lady called me asking me "Even though we
already sent you this letter, would you still be intrested to come to
interview?". That lady appeared to be my future boss, since that
interview got me the job as IT-assistant, starting 16.10.2002. ~3 years
after that my title was changed to IT-specialist and at 2007 I got
asked, if I'd like a transfer to the headquarters of the firm.
In october we'll have a party, since then I've worked 10 years for the firm.
Don't count on it, but stay aware that anything can happen. Be
open-minded for the situations that come up, it helps a lot.
-Aero
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>> Obviously, I would hire the first guy, because he has the skills that
>> matter. But the IT manager? He's a ****ing moron, so he would hire the
>> second guy. Just because the second guy has some superficial attribute
>> which is nearly completely unimportant.
>
> It's not really unimportant when hiring for a programming position,
> though - if there's existing code that needs to be maintained, you would
> want someone who knows the language it was written in.
If you need something done in a real hurry, then having somebody who can
hit the ground running can be very important. But most of the time, what
you want is somebody who can be trained to do a job well. An aptitude
for learning and a willingness to do so ought to be a higher priority
than merely having some of the relevant knowledge already.
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On 8/24/2012 9:29, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could have
> done...
Remember, it's entirely possible *their* situation changed. They might not
need your skills or have the money at this point.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
"Don't panic. There's beans and filters
in the cabinet."
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On 8/24/2012 14:41, Jim Henderson wrote:
> So in my case (and as yours) - it's their loss.
An astute observation.
Or maybe the boss' nephew just lost his job and asked to cut to the front of
the line.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
"Don't panic. There's beans and filters
in the cabinet."
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On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:11:17 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 8/24/2012 14:41, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> So in my case (and as yours) - it's their loss.
>
> An astute observation.
>
> Or maybe the boss' nephew just lost his job and asked to cut to the
> front of the line.
I know that didn't happen in my case - they called a former coworker
(who'd already been eliminated in an earlier round), talked to him for an
extra 30 minutes, told him again that he was not up for consideration,
and then closed the position without filling it.
But that certainly could be the case in Andy's situation.
Jim
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