>> That's a great story. Pity I don't know anybody like that...
>
> You don't know that.
>
> Just with the 4 contacts I have in the UK (with a quick filter - and I
> know there are more in the UK who for some reason aren't showing up as
> being there - ah, because there is a city filter as well), you're a step
> away from knowing one of the product release managers at Applied Card
> Technologies, someone who works at T-Systems, and the owner and CEO of
> b2lateral (which is a training/consultancy).
>
> I also know someone who's the systems engineering team leader at City
> College in Brighton, people who work at both Cambridge and Oxford
> universities (including a research professor who's not on LinkedIn - he's
> worked very hard to keep a very small online footprint).

That's impressive and everything, but... why would any of these people 
give a damn about me? I'm nobody.

(I'm also not sure what you mean by "one step away"...)

> Spend some time looking at the companies represented in your broader
> network and see what looks like it might be moderately interesting.
>
> Then see what positions those companies have posted on LinkedIn, and if
> you find something that looks interesting, ask the person you know there
> to introduce you to the person they know ho works there.

It's literally news to me that LinkedIn lets you do this. I didn't 
realise it /had/ jobs listings, or company data, or anything remotely 
like that...

Post a reply to this message

>>>>> How to properly use google?<scnr>
>>>>
>>>> You laugh, but this is actually non-trivial.
>>>
>>> Not in my experience.
>>
>> The double-negatives make this ambiguous.
>
> I find it to be trivial.

Wow. OK, that's impressive. Next time I can't find something, I'll know 
who to ask...

(Oh, wait, I can't do that. Warp will yell at me. :-P )

> One thing that helps tremendously is to just use keywords, not to write a
> novel as the question.

Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's what 
makes them KEY words...

>> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH MY
>> MUM, that's for sure. ;-)
>
> Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.

Like I said, everywhere else I've seen is really old and dilapidated...

>>> But yeah, there are probably jobs there, just perhaps not in the fields
>>> you're interested in.
>>
>> Perhaps. I very much doubt anyone here wants computer programmers. But
>> the guy who looks after the computers? Surely any company that has a lot
>> of computers will want one of those. (Doesn't mean they need a new one
>> though...)
>
> Yes, but if there are largely small companies, they may typically hire
> some kid recently out of school (often times before they've been to uni)
> because they know the kid because he/she fixed their computer once.

We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a 
brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who works 
for them; she reckons that should be my next target...

>> Sure. And if a job was in, say, Northampton, that would be fine.
>> Anything that's within a reasonable commuting distance of where I live.
>
> What distance would you consider?

Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at 
least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.

>> Interesting...
>
> You don't recall that?

Vaguely. I still don't get how anybody can /buy/ a house outright, but 
renting seems plausible, if you make a lot of money.

>> And hey, I've actually /met/ a tiny few of the people on here, so...
>> (Damn, if only I could remember their names!)
>
> Don't worry about remembering names - I never remember names myself,

Everywhere I go, I can never remember anybody's names, and yet they all 
seem to know exactly who I am. It's weird...

(Or maybe *I* am weird, which is why everybody knows me.)

>> It seems to be classic Internet bubble type stuff. Everybody is really
>> excited about how much money Facebook is going to start making ANY DAY
>> NOW... and yet, where's the money?
>
> Indeed, the IPO happened and the stock has been pretty much declining
> since.

Heh. Burn, baby, burn...

>> The idea that somebody actually knows the guy who does the hiring just
>> seems... really, really far-out.
>
> When you only are networked to 7 people directly, the chances are pretty
> small.  When you are networked to 500+ people, the chances get
> significantly larger.

Yeah, I suppose so.

>> Actually, you know what? What /really/ sounds far-fetched to me is that
>> somebody would know somebody who needs to make a hire, and that person
>> would think that *I* am even worth mentioning. I have no skills useful
>> in a workplace. I find it hard to imagine anybody wanting to hire me...
>
> It's a question of scale.  And you don't be someone worth mentioning, you
> have to pursue it.  Most HR professionals say that they're not interested
> in hiring someone who doesn't show initiative.  You don't say to an HR
> person "if you see something that looks like a good fit, get in touch
> with me".

I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".

>> So in the interview, they always seem to ask you something along the
>> lines of "what excites you about our company?" or "why did you choose
>> us?" or something similar.
>
> Yep.  So you have to find something to be excited about - and there has
> to be something that interests you beyond the paycheck, or there's little
> reason for you to stay.  Hiring people is expensive, so they want to hire
> people who have a peripheral interest.

I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company for 
any reason other than the money.

>> Why did I pick this company? The honest truth is obviously "this is all
>> I could find".
>
> m-/
>
> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so there
> must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".

In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's 
not as if job openings grow on trees...

> You have to find something about what they do that piques your interest.

Sounds infeasible to me.

> You don't have to pretend about it.

Oh really?

> I left college for a job in their MIS department.  What excited me about
> the job?  Flexible hours, the ability to build new systems and to affect
> the bottom line indirectly.  I did my first large-scale project (only
> $30,000, but it was a full rewiring of the building for voice/network),
> and had a chance to learn from someone I came to respect how to make a
> business case so I could do the things I wanted to do.

> The point is that while yeah - it's a job and you need the money - there
> should be something about the job or the company that makes you /want/ to
> get up and go to work in the morning.

I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS 
EXCITED about doing a job...

> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.

I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is 
hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They 
don't SELL anything!

(People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of these 
adverts that they purportedly sell?)

Post a reply to this message

On 9-6-2012 20:57, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's what
> makes them KEY words...
>
>>> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH MY
>>> MUM, that's for sure. ;-)
>>
>> Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.
>
> Like I said, everywhere else I've seen is really old and dilapidated...

That is precisely the point: you haven't seen much.

>> I left college for a job in their MIS department. What excited me about
>> the job? Flexible hours, the ability to build new systems and to affect
>> the bottom line indirectly. I did my first large-scale project (only
>> $30,000, but it was a full rewiring of the building for voice/network),
>> and had a chance to learn from someone I came to respect how to make a
>> business case so I could do the things I wanted to do.
>
>> The point is that while yeah - it's a job and you need the money - there
>> should be something about the job or the company that makes you /want/ to
>> get up and go to work in the morning.
>
> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
> EXCITED about doing a job...

Sorry to correct you here, but there are quite a few of those in this 
group. Or you may not count that as meeting. If you restrict yourself to 
actually physically meeting, you might have a point, but only by not 
interacting with people from outside your isolated community. It may 
look pretty and comfortable to you, but it is not the place where 
interesting things happen.

Post a reply to this message

On 09/06/2012 8:42 PM, andrel wrote:
>> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
>> EXCITED about doing a job...
>
> Sorry to correct you here, but there are quite a few of those in this
> group. Or you may not count that as meeting. If you restrict yourself to
> actually physically meeting, you might have a point, but only by not
> interacting with people from outside your isolated community. It may
> look pretty and comfortable to you, but it is not the place where
> interesting things happen.

So true. I have had three careers and I would have paid money to do 
them, I enjoy(ed) them so much. Working 9 to 5 in a job that is only a 
means of getting money to live. Is my idea of hell, unless your social 
live makes up for it.
(My tuppence worth)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 19:57:21 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> I find it to be trivial.
> 
> Wow. OK, that's impressive. Next time I can't find something, I'll know
> who to ask...
> 
> (Oh, wait, I can't do that. Warp will yell at me. :-P )

Earlier today, I was looking for ways to analyse mbox headers.  Took a 
few tries and different combinations, but I found some scripts in about 
15 minutes that gave me a start.

>> One thing that helps tremendously is to just use keywords, not to write
>> a novel as the question.
> 
> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's what
> makes them KEY words...

And if one set of words doesn't work, you try a different set (see 
above).  It ain't rocket science.

>>> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH
>>> MY MUM, that's for sure. ;-)
>>
>> Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.
> 
> Like I said, everywhere else I've seen is really old and dilapidated...

Dubai?  Minneapolis?  Sydney?  Switzerland?

Surely you've seen pictures of those places.

>> Yes, but if there are largely small companies, they may typically hire
>> some kid recently out of school (often times before they've been to
>> uni) because they know the kid because he/she fixed their computer
>> once.
> 
> We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a
> brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who works
> for them; she reckons that should be my next target...

That's a good start.  Look at the job postings, see if she knows someone 
in the department (or knows someone who knows someone in the department, 
odds are she does if she doesn't herself) for a job that looks 
interesting to you.

>>> Sure. And if a job was in, say, Northampton, that would be fine.
>>> Anything that's within a reasonable commuting distance of where I
>>> live.
>>
>> What distance would you consider?
> 
> Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at
> least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.

Well, sure, it isn't proportional, but usually you can't say "show me 
companies that are within 30 minutes of a location at 8 AM and 5 PM" and 
get useful results.  So distance is as good a measure as anything.

25 miles isn't very much.  My last full-time job (and possibly my next 
full-time job) has an office 45 miles away, but I telecommuted most of 
the time.

Something to consider.

>>> Interesting...
>>
>> You don't recall that?
> 
> Vaguely. I still don't get how anybody can /buy/ a house outright, 

Most people don't.  They get a mortgage.  Our 30-year mortgage (IIRC) is 
about $1,300/month.

> but
> renting seems plausible, if you make a lot of money.

Or if you room with someone else.  My stepson and his girlfriend are 
looking at renting with a couple friends of theirs.  Round here, rent's 
not too bad, about $700/mo on average IIRC.

>>> And hey, I've actually /met/ a tiny few of the people on here, so...
>>> (Damn, if only I could remember their names!)
>>
>> Don't worry about remembering names - I never remember names myself,
> 
> Everywhere I go, I can never remember anybody's names, and yet they all
> seem to know exactly who I am. It's weird...

It's not weird.  I've known people who could remember names and faces 
very well.  I've met literally thousands of people at tradeshows, and 
they always remember me, but if they're not wearing a nametag, I usually 
don't remember them unless I've spent time talking to them away from the 
show.

Though often when they tell me their name, I'll remember them - maybe 
it's more the association of names and faces that I have trouble with.

> (Or maybe *I* am weird, which is why everybody knows me.)

You do have some /interesting/ traits that make you memorable.  Not in a 
bad way, either.

>> It's a question of scale.  And you don't be someone worth mentioning,
>> you have to pursue it.  Most HR professionals say that they're not
>> interested in hiring someone who doesn't show initiative.  You don't
>> say to an HR person "if you see something that looks like a good fit,
>> get in touch with me".
> 
> I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".

Find a job that looks interesting, contact someone you know at the 
company and say "Hey, I saw this job at your company, and I'm interested 
in it".  If you've previously interviewed there, contact the person you 
interviewed with and say "I know this other position didn't work out, but 
I found another one that looks like a better fit, could you give me a 
hand with it?" - especially if you did a screening interview with the HR 
department in the past.

Persistence pays off.

Sending a CV and saying "contact me if there's a good fit" - not showing 
initiative.  Showing that you know something about the company, finding a 
position, and then getting hold of someone you've talked to before there 
and saying "hey, this is something I'm interested in, and I'd be a good 
fit for it and here's why" (and then framing 'why' in terms of what they 
do - show that you know what they do) - that is a good thing.

>>> So in the interview, they always seem to ask you something along the
>>> lines of "what excites you about our company?" or "why did you choose
>>> us?" or something similar.
>>
>> Yep.  So you have to find something to be excited about - and there has
>> to be something that interests you beyond the paycheck, or there's
>> little reason for you to stay.  Hiring people is expensive, so they
>> want to hire people who have a peripheral interest.
> 
> I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company for
> any reason other than the money.

Wouldn't it be fun, for example, if you found a company that worked on/
with Haskell?  Sure, the money is an important thing, but working on 
something you find interesting - that's a reason to be interested in a 
particular organisation.

>>> Why did I pick this company? The honest truth is obviously "this is
>>> all I could find".
>>
>> m-/
>>
>> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so
>> there must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".
> 
> In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's
> not as if job openings grow on trees...

You just said unemployment is quite low where you are.  As population 
grows, if unemployment stays the same or drops, then jobs are in fact 
growing.

>> You have to find something about what they do that piques your
>> interest.
> 
> Sounds infeasible to me.

Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you are, 
and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.

>> You don't have to pretend about it.
> 
> Oh really?

Really.  I took on teaching because I was interested in helping people 
learn how to use the product.  I'd never done formal instruction before 
(presented at conferences a few times, but that's different from 
constructing and delivering a 3-day classroom experience with hands-on 
labs).

>> The point is that while yeah - it's a job and you need the money -
>> there should be something about the job or the company that makes you
>> /want/ to get up and go to work in the morning.
> 
> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
> EXCITED about doing a job...

A fair number of people get excited about doing a job.  Many people 
derive meaning in their lives based on the job they do, and it helps 
define who they are.

For people who fall into that category, not being excited about the job 
is like not being alive.

>> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.
> 
> I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is
> hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They
> don't SELL anything!

Subscribers to Google Docs - there is a business edition.  Ads.  I'm sure 
Darren could tell you all sorts of things they sell.

> (People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of these
> adverts that they purportedly sell?)

Sure, I have.  AdWords is all over the 'net.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 19:42:53 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> I also know someone who's the systems engineering team leader at City
>> College in Brighton, people who work at both Cambridge and Oxford
>> universities (including a research professor who's not on LinkedIn -
>> he's worked very hard to keep a very small online footprint).
> 
> That's impressive and everything, but... why would any of these people
> give a damn about me? I'm nobody.

You have skills.  Perhaps they need your skills.  If you're a fit for a 
job and can do it for a price they can afford, then they benefit from 
hiring you.

> (I'm also not sure what you mean by "one step away"...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

That's a good place to start.

>> Spend some time looking at the companies represented in your broader
>> network and see what looks like it might be moderately interesting.
>>
>> Then see what positions those companies have posted on LinkedIn, and if
>> you find something that looks interesting, ask the person you know
>> there to introduce you to the person they know ho works there.
> 
> It's literally news to me that LinkedIn lets you do this. I didn't
> realise it /had/ jobs listings, or company data, or anything remotely
> like that...

You've been away from three years, assuming it's never changing. <shrug>  
It's changed, and that's part of what's changed about it.  If you've put 
enough information in, it can even recommend jobs you may be interested 
in.

That's how I found the one I almost got in Portland.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's what
>> makes them KEY words...
>
> And if one set of words doesn't work, you try a different set (see
> above).  It ain't rocket science.

Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

>>>> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH
>>>> MY MUM, that's for sure. ;-)
>>>
>>> Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.
>>
>> Like I said, everywhere else I've seen is really old and dilapidated...
>
> Dubai?  Minneapolis?  Sydney?  Switzerland?
>
> Surely you've seen pictures of those places.

Hell, I've *visited* Switzerland.

It's a pleasant enough place to visit, but I wouldn't want to /live/ 
there...

>> We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a
>> brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who works
>> for them; she reckons that should be my next target...
>
> That's a good start.  Look at the job postings, see if she knows someone
> in the department (or knows someone who knows someone in the department,
> odds are she does if she doesn't herself) for a job that looks
> interesting to you.

I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position. Basically she told 
me to go look at their openings and see what they want. Apparently 
they're in the middle of a multi-million pound expansion plan. (Which 
seems bizarre, when you consider that IT'S NETWORK RAIL!)

>>> What distance would you consider?
>>
>> Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at
>> least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.

> 25 miles isn't very much.  My last full-time job (and possibly my next
> full-time job) has an office 45 miles away, but I telecommuted most of
> the time.
>
> Something to consider.

Well, yeah, it's the distance I have to travel that's important, not 
where their registered office nominally is...

>> (Or maybe *I* am weird, which is why everybody knows me.)
>
> You do have some /interesting/ traits that make you memorable.  Not in a
> bad way, either.

I'm very spessial. :-/

>> I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".
>
> Find a job that looks interesting, contact someone you know at the
> company and say "Hey, I saw this job at your company, and I'm interested
> in it".  If you've previously interviewed there, contact the person you
> interviewed with and say "I know this other position didn't work out, but
> I found another one that looks like a better fit, could you give me a
> hand with it?" - especially if you did a screening interview with the HR
> department in the past.
>
> Persistence pays off.
>
> Sending a CV and saying "contact me if there's a good fit" - not showing
> initiative.  Showing that you know something about the company, finding a
> position, and then getting hold of someone you've talked to before there
> and saying "hey, this is something I'm interested in, and I'd be a good
> fit for it and here's why" (and then framing 'why' in terms of what they
> do - show that you know what they do) - that is a good thing.

IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the 
end. I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've 
been interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's 
contact details.

>> I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company for
>> any reason other than the money.
>
> Wouldn't it be fun, for example, if you found a company that worked on/
> with Haskell?  Sure, the money is an important thing, but working on
> something you find interesting - that's a reason to be interested in a
> particular organisation.

There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in 
Haskell. The one in the UK consists of 3 people, and their registered 
office is somebody's house. If they want a Haskell programmer, they have 
the entire global community to choose from, and therefore they will not 
be hiring me.

Sure, a tiny handful of people out there have really cool jobs. These 
are vanishingly rare. Us mere mortals have to accept that only the sucky 
jobs are open to us.

>>> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so
>>> there must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".
>>
>> In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's
>> not as if job openings grow on trees...
>
> You just said unemployment is quite low where you are.

Sure. I've also said, many times, that *I* have great difficulty finding 
job openings. Surely they must be out there, but apparently I suck at 
finding them.

>>> You have to find something about what they do that piques your
>>> interest.
>>
>> Sounds infeasible to me.
>
> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you are,
> and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.

I am /not/ working in London. End of story.

>> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
>> EXCITED about doing a job...
>
> A fair number of people get excited about doing a job.  Many people
> derive meaning in their lives based on the job they do, and it helps
> define who they are.
>
> For people who fall into that category, not being excited about the job
> is like not being alive.

Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...

>>> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.
>>
>> I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is
>> hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They
>> don't SELL anything!
>
> Subscribers to Google Docs - there is a business edition.  Ads.  I'm sure
> Darren could tell you all sorts of things they sell.

I thought they closed down Docs? (Or am I thinking of Google Wave?)

>> (People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of these
>> adverts that they purportedly sell?)
>
> Sure, I have.  AdWords is all over the 'net.

You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...

Post a reply to this message

On 10/06/2012 10:57 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

The engineering.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 6/10/2012 2:57, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
   "Don't panic. There's beans and filters
    in the cabinet."

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 10:57:55 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's
>>> what makes them KEY words...
>>
>> And if one set of words doesn't work, you try a different set (see
>> above).  It ain't rocket science.
> 
> Incidentally... what's so hard about rocket science anyway?

I'm sure a rocket scientist could answer that question.  Closest I get is 
a couple of people I know with their PhDs and Masters degress in nuclear 
physics.

>> Dubai?  Minneapolis?  Sydney?  Switzerland?
>>
>> Surely you've seen pictures of those places.
> 
> Hell, I've *visited* Switzerland.
> 
> It's a pleasant enough place to visit, but I wouldn't want to /live/
> there...

Did you see all of it?  There may well be places that meet your criteria 
that you haven't visited.  But you've closed your mind to even the idea 
of there being another place on the entire planet where you might be 
happy.

>>> We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a
>>> brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who
>>> works for them; she reckons that should be my next target...
>>
>> That's a good start.  Look at the job postings, see if she knows
>> someone in the department (or knows someone who knows someone in the
>> department, odds are she does if she doesn't herself) for a job that
>> looks interesting to you.
> 
> I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position. Basically she told
> me to go look at their openings and see what they want. Apparently
> they're in the middle of a multi-million pound expansion plan. (Which
> seems bizarre, when you consider that IT'S NETWORK RAIL!)

(a) you don't know that she knows someone who's hiring until you ask, and 
(b) you don't know if she knows someone who knows someone who's hiring.

As they're expanding, it's a good time to look.  So go look already.

Very often in larger companies, the person who refers someone who gets 
hired gets a bonus (usually after the hiree has been on staff for 6 
months or so) - so there's incentive for staff to recruit from outside 
the company.  So not only could she help you get a new job, she might be 
eligible for a bonus for finding you - which would make it in her 
interest to help you as well.  (It's not a universal practice, but it's 
far from uncommon IME).

>>>> What distance would you consider?
>>>
>>> Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at
>>> least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.
> 
>> 25 miles isn't very much.  My last full-time job (and possibly my next
>> full-time job) has an office 45 miles away, but I telecommuted most of
>> the time.
>>
>> Something to consider.
> 
> Well, yeah, it's the distance I have to travel that's important, not
> where their registered office nominally is...

Of course.  (BTW, that company's "registered office" - ie corporate HQ - 
was in Boston in my case.  Just the local office was 45 miles away).

>>> I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".
>>
>> Find a job that looks interesting, contact someone you know at the
>> company and say "Hey, I saw this job at your company, and I'm
>> interested in it".  If you've previously interviewed there, contact the
>> person you interviewed with and say "I know this other position didn't
>> work out, but I found another one that looks like a better fit, could
>> you give me a hand with it?" - especially if you did a screening
>> interview with the HR department in the past.
>>
>> Persistence pays off.
>>
>> Sending a CV and saying "contact me if there's a good fit" - not
>> showing initiative.  Showing that you know something about the company,
>> finding a position, and then getting hold of someone you've talked to
>> before there and saying "hey, this is something I'm interested in, and
>> I'd be a good fit for it and here's why" (and then framing 'why' in
>> terms of what they do - show that you know what they do) - that is a
>> good thing.
> 
> IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the
> end. 

That's because you use the "normal" way of applying, which doesn't work 
for the applicant.

> I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've
> been interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's
> contact details.

You know someone at Unisys, you said.

So in my case - I know someone (a few people, actually) who work at 
VMware, and one who works at Mozy (both are divisions of EMC).  My friend 
at VMware pointed me to someone in their HR department - so now I know 
someone in the HR department there.

There was a position in a division called "SpringSource" that I was 
interested in and interviewed for, but in the end they found someone who 
met the job requirements and knew the product already (otherwise I was a 
very good fit for what they were looking for - a technical writer).

The next time I saw a job there that looked interesting, I pinged the guy 
in HR, and he said the job was in a different division so he couldn't 
help other than by giving me the name and e-mail address of his 
counterpart in that division.

That's how it's done.

>>> I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company
>>> for any reason other than the money.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be fun, for example, if you found a company that worked on/
>> with Haskell?  Sure, the money is an important thing, but working on
>> something you find interesting - that's a reason to be interested in a
>> particular organisation.
> 
> There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in
> Haskell. The one in the UK consists of 3 people, and their registered
> office is somebody's house. If they want a Haskell programmer, they have
> the entire global community to choose from, and therefore they will not
> be hiring me.

You're missing my point.  It's not about Haskell, it's about finding 
something you like doing or are good at doing and using that as a 
criteria for finding a job.

And no, there aren't "roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to 
code in Haskell" - that's the sort of absurd comment that makes people 
pound their heads on their desks.

A search on Google turned up this page:

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Jobs

Which lists 5 companies and some academic places.  That was with a 5-
second quick search on "Haskell programming jobs" and was the first hit 
(and I'm betting not every company that hires Haskell programmers has 
posted to that page).

If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry lists a 
significant number of companies that use Haskell (probably still not an 
exhaustive list) including AT&T and Facebook.

> Sure, a tiny handful of people out there have really cool jobs. These
> are vanishingly rare. Us mere mortals have to accept that only the sucky
> jobs are open to us.

Many people are happy in their jobs and like their jobs.  There's nothing 
particularly "cool" about being a technical instructor or a program 
manager - but those are both jobs I enjoyed doing.  I'm not going to be 
an astronaut or a F1 race car driver, so I've found what I'm good at and 
applied that to a number of different types of positions over the years.

>>>> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so
>>>> there must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".
>>>
>>> In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's
>>> not as if job openings grow on trees...
>>
>> You just said unemployment is quite low where you are.
> 
> Sure. I've also said, many times, that *I* have great difficulty finding
> job openings. Surely they must be out there, but apparently I suck at
> finding them.

It starts with search criteria and methods.

>>>> You have to find something about what they do that piques your
>>>> interest.
>>>
>>> Sounds infeasible to me.
>>
>> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you
>> are, and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.
> 
> I am /not/ working in London. End of story.

I didn't say London.  But consider the possibility of working for a 
company based in London but working from home.  As you said earlier, it's 
not where the company is based but where you have to drive to.  If your 
commute is 25 feet to your home office, who cares if the office is in 
London - even if you have to go there once a month?

>>> I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS
>>> EXCITED about doing a job...
>>
>> A fair number of people get excited about doing a job.  Many people
>> derive meaning in their lives based on the job they do, and it helps
>> define who they are.
>>
>> For people who fall into that category, not being excited about the job
>> is like not being alive.
> 
> Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...

Not in my experience.  It helps one do the job well if one can get up in 
the morning and be looking forward to what they're going to do.

>>>> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.
>>>
>>> I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is
>>> hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They
>>> don't SELL anything!
>>
>> Subscribers to Google Docs - there is a business edition.  Ads.  I'm
>> sure Darren could tell you all sorts of things they sell.
> 
> I thought they closed down Docs? (Or am I thinking of Google Wave?)

Yes, you're thinking of wave.  Docs has been incorporated into Google 
Drive now.

If you followed the news, you'd know that Google hosts e-mail and office 
suite software for businesses (it was/is called "Docs for Business", I 
think).

>>> (People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of
>>> these adverts that they purportedly sell?)
>>
>> Sure, I have.  AdWords is all over the 'net.
> 
> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...

m-/

Do you use an ad blocker?

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> Hell, I've *visited* Switzerland.
>>
>> It's a pleasant enough place to visit, but I wouldn't want to /live/
>> there...
>
> Did you see all of it?  There may well be places that meet your criteria
> that you haven't visited.  But you've closed your mind to even the idea
> of there being another place on the entire planet where you might be
> happy.

Well, in the case of Switzerland, it's the language barrier more than 
anything. (Yes, I realise that almost all Swiss people speak English 
better than I will ever speak French.)

>> I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position.
>
> (a) you don't know that she knows someone who's hiring until you ask, and
> (b) you don't know if she knows someone who knows someone who's hiring.

Given that we were discussing my next career move, don't you think if 
she knew who I need to speak to, she might have mentioned this exact fact?

> As they're expanding, it's a good time to look.  So go look already.

Sure.

>> IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the
>> end.
>
> That's because you use the "normal" way of applying, which doesn't work
> for the applicant.

I assumed it's just that I'm not worth hiring...

>> I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've
>> been interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's
>> contact details.
>
> You know someone at Unisys, you said.

I don't think I did...

> So in my case - I know someone (a few people, actually) who work at
> VMware, and one who works at Mozy (both are divisions of EMC).  My friend
> at VMware pointed me to someone in their HR department - so now I know
> someone in the HR department there.
>
> There was a position in a division called "SpringSource" that I was
> interested in and interviewed for, but in the end they found someone who
> met the job requirements and knew the product already (otherwise I was a
> very good fit for what they were looking for - a technical writer).
>
> The next time I saw a job there that looked interesting, I pinged the guy
> in HR, and he said the job was in a different division so he couldn't
> help other than by giving me the name and e-mail address of his
> counterpart in that division.
>
> That's how it's done.

>> There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in
>> Haskell.
>
> You're missing my point.  It's not about Haskell, it's about finding
> something you like doing or are good at doing and using that as a
> criteria for finding a job.

Well, that's why I'm in computing, after all. But nobody is going to pay 
me to do what I like doing; they're going to pay me for the work that 
actually needs to be done, whether I enjoy that or not. And what 
actually needs to be done is almost by definition doomed to be something 
extremely dull. It's pointless to pretend that a mere /job/ is ever 
going to fire my imagination or anything like that.

> And no, there aren't "roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to
> code in Haskell" - that's the sort of absurd comment that makes people
> pound their heads on their desks.

If I can't convince anybody to hire me to write Java (pro tip: Java is 
popular), then nobody is ever going to hire me to write Haskell.

> If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.

For twenty years, it /was/ that unpopular.

Things don't have to be popular in order to exist. /Products/ have to be 
popular to continue to be produced. But a piece of software? Doesn't 
have to be popular. Heck, I wrote Logic Box in Java. Logic Box is not 
popular. Yet, it exists. QED.

> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry lists a
> significant number of companies that use Haskell (probably still not an
> exhaustive list) including AT&T and Facebook.

Sure, but nobody works for AT&T or Facebook. (Actually, given our 
earlier discussion, I wouldn't /want/ to work for Facebook...)

>> Sure, a tiny handful of people out there have really cool jobs. These
>> are vanishingly rare. Us mere mortals have to accept that only the sucky
>> jobs are open to us.
>
> Many people are happy in their jobs and like their jobs.  There's nothing
> particularly "cool" about being a technical instructor or a program
> manager - but those are both jobs I enjoyed doing.  I'm not going to be
> an astronaut or a F1 race car driver, so I've found what I'm good at and
> applied that to a number of different types of positions over the years.

There are people who don't hate their job, sure. But I can't imagine 
many people are truly /excited/ about their job. And in an interview, 
they don't ask you "so what parts of this job do you think /don't/ 
completely suck?"

>>> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you
>>> are, and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.
>>
>> I am /not/ working in London. End of story.
>
> I didn't say London.

No, that's just where *all* of the main computer jobs are.

Actually, take out "computer" - that's where almost all the advertised 
jobs are.

> But consider the possibility of working for a
> company based in London but working from home.

That I could live with.

>> Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...
>
> Not in my experience.  It helps one do the job well if one can get up in
> the morning and be looking forward to what they're going to do.

I'm not arguing that liking your job isn't a good thing. I'm arguing 
that it isn't a common thing.

>> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...
>
> m-/
>
> Do you use an ad blocker?

Not until recently.

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:16:44 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> Well, in the case of Switzerland, it's the language barrier more than
> anything. (Yes, I realise that almost all Swiss people speak English
> better than I will ever speak French.)

So then it's not really a language barrier, is it?

One of the companies I've applied to is based in Germany.  I don't speak 
German.  The position specifically calls for an English-speaking/writing 
candidate, though.

>>> I don't think she knows anybody in a hiring position.
>>
>> (a) you don't know that she knows someone who's hiring until you ask,
>> and (b) you don't know if she knows someone who knows someone who's
>> hiring.
> 
> Given that we were discussing my next career move, don't you think if
> she knew who I need to speak to, she might have mentioned this exact
> fact?

Not necessarily.  In fact, if she were to get a referral bonus, I'd 
expect her not to tell you, but to take your info and submit it 
internally herself.

>>> IME, you apply to a company, never hear back from them ever again, the
>>> end.
>>
>> That's because you use the "normal" way of applying, which doesn't work
>> for the applicant.
> 
> I assumed it's just that I'm not worth hiring...

We've talked about this before, Andy.  If you go through the front door, 
you're on the same level as everyone else applying for the job.  One way 
to get an advantage - and to show initiative - is to find other ways to 
get your info in front of the hiring manager.

>>> I'm not sure how you would "know somebody there". Even if you've been
>>> interviewed before, I'm not sure how you'd have the person's contact
>>> details.
>>
>> You know someone at Unisys, you said.
> 
> I don't think I did...

Um, not the person that you above said "I don't think she knows anybody 
in a hiring position."?

Yes, you did actually say you know someone who works at Unisys.  She may 
not be the person who's hiring, but she certainly is better placed to 
pass info along to a hiring manager than you are.

>>> There are roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to code in
>>> Haskell.
>>
>> You're missing my point.  It's not about Haskell, it's about finding
>> something you like doing or are good at doing and using that as a
>> criteria for finding a job.
> 
> Well, that's why I'm in computing, after all. But nobody is going to pay
> me to do what I like doing; they're going to pay me for the work that
> actually needs to be done, whether I enjoy that or not. And what
> actually needs to be done is almost by definition doomed to be something
> extremely dull. It's pointless to pretend that a mere /job/ is ever
> going to fire my imagination or anything like that.

What do you /like/ doing?  You might be surprised at what people will 
actually pay for.

>> And no, there aren't "roughly 3 companies globally that pay people to
>> code in Haskell" - that's the sort of absurd comment that makes people
>> pound their heads on their desks.
> 
> If I can't convince anybody to hire me to write Java (pro tip: Java is
> popular), then nobody is ever going to hire me to write Haskell.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  If you're competent in Haskell and that's what 
they're looking for, then being one of a smaller number of developers who 
write in a language that they're using is far, far better than being one 
of the billion people (yes, hyperbole, but there are a /lot/ of Java 
programmers out there) who can write code in Java.

>> If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.
> 
> For twenty years, it /was/ that unpopular.

Yet it still exists.

> Things don't have to be popular in order to exist. /Products/ have to be
> popular to continue to be produced. But a piece of software? Doesn't
> have to be popular. Heck, I wrote Logic Box in Java. Logic Box is not
> popular. Yet, it exists. QED.

Now you're just being silly.

There are a fair number of companies that write and use Haskell for 
production systems.

>> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry lists a
>> significant number of companies that use Haskell (probably still not an
>> exhaustive list) including AT&T and Facebook.
> 
> Sure, but nobody works for AT&T or Facebook. (Actually, given our
> earlier discussion, I wouldn't /want/ to work for Facebook...)

"Nobody works for AT&T or Facebook" - are you /serious/?  AT&T is one of 
the larger companies in the world.  Facebook has a fairly significant 
sized staff.  Those server rooms don't take care of themselves, and 
people don't do it for no pay.

AT&T:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:T

Number of employees:  252,330

Facebook:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=fb

Number of employees:  3,539

Far from "nobody".

> There are people who don't hate their job, sure. But I can't imagine
> many people are truly /excited/ about their job. And in an interview,
> they don't ask you "so what parts of this job do you think /don't/
> completely suck?"

No, because they want to know what you're interested in, not what you 
hate about them.

So if programming in Haskell is something that interests you, you're not 
going to want to say "well, it wouldn't suck to write code in Haskell", 
you'd say "I'd enjoy writing code in Haskell."

>>>> Maybe you need to extend your search beyond 25 miles from where you
>>>> are, and consider that moving where you are might well be beneficial.
>>>
>>> I am /not/ working in London. End of story.
>>
>> I didn't say London.
> 
> No, that's just where *all* of the main computer jobs are.
> 
> Actually, take out "computer" - that's where almost all the advertised
> jobs are.

It makes sense there would be more jobs where there is a population 
center, that's true.

But you also might find something that wouldn't require a daily commute.  
It's worth looking into.

>> But consider the possibility of working for a company based in London
>> but working from home.
> 
> That I could live with.

So that would make it worth exploring the option.

>>> Sure. But that must be a really, really small category...
>>
>> Not in my experience.  It helps one do the job well if one can get up
>> in the morning and be looking forward to what they're going to do.
> 
> I'm not arguing that liking your job isn't a good thing. I'm arguing
> that it isn't a common thing.

I've worked in companies with 200 employees and companies with 250,000 
employees.  Most of the people I have known in those companies have liked 
their jobs.

I had a conversation once with a software engineer in Bangalore who said 
that he took the job because he had to - he found it interesting, but he 
held a similar view to yours - that not everyone loves their job or has 
the potential to take a job that they love (in his case, he liked the job 
well enough and was good at it - but in India, that's where the money is, 
and he has a family to take care of, so that was the primary reason he 
took it).

But all the people I know in the UK also seem to really enjoy what they 
do.  Now I don't know everyone in the UK, probably not even enough to 
constitute a statistical sample - but of the ones I know, you're the only 
one who actively /hates/ his job.

>>> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...
>>
>> m-/
>>
>> Do you use an ad blocker?
> 
> Not until recently.

Then you must not use Google a lot.  Oh, wait....

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> Given that we were discussing my next career move, don't you think if
>> she knew who I need to speak to, she might have mentioned this exact
>> fact?
>
> Not necessarily.  In fact, if she were to get a referral bonus, I'd
> expect her not to tell you, but to take your info and submit it
> internally herself.

Well, she didn't offer to do that either. She just said "you should 
totally apply here".

>> I assumed it's just that I'm not worth hiring...
>
> We've talked about this before, Andy.  If you go through the front door,
> you're on the same level as everyone else applying for the job.  One way
> to get an advantage - and to show initiative - is to find other ways to
> get your info in front of the hiring manager.

Given that I don't even really understand the correct procedure for 
getting in the front door, it seems unlikely that I'd succeed trying to 
talk my way in through the back. And, at the end of the day, if I'm not 
worth hiring, they aren't going to hire me, no matter what I do.

>>> You know someone at Unisys, you said.
>>
>> I don't think I did...
>
> Um, not the person that you above said "I don't think she knows anybody
> in a hiring position."?

No. Network Rail.

> What do you /like/ doing?  You might be surprised at what people will
> actually pay for.

Nobody is going to pay me to write a ray-tracer. Because, as cool as 
that is, it's a solved problem. Similarly, nobody is going to pay me to 
sit around playing with compression algorithms or designing weak ciphers 
or generating pretty pictures from sound signals or... you know what? 
These things are all very cool, but none of them actually generate 
money. What people /actually/ want is somebody who can migrate their SQL 
Server database to Oracle, or find a way to run a legacy MS-DOS program 
on a shiny new server farm, or something like that.

>> If I can't convince anybody to hire me to write Java (pro tip: Java is
>> popular), then nobody is ever going to hire me to write Haskell.
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong.  If you're competent in Haskell and that's what
> they're looking for, then being one of a smaller number of developers who
> write in a language that they're using is far, far better than being one
> of the billion people (yes, hyperbole, but there are a /lot/ of Java
> programmers out there) who can write code in Java.

It puts me in a smaller pool of employees, but it also puts them in a 
smaller pool of employers.

>>> If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.
>>
>> For twenty years, it /was/ that unpopular.
>
> Yet it still exists.

See, the thing is, when you're not making a product for profit, it 
doesn't /matter/ whether it's popular or not. It doesn't /need/ to be 
popular in order to exist.

>> Sure, but nobody works for AT&T or Facebook. (Actually, given our
>> earlier discussion, I wouldn't /want/ to work for Facebook...)
>
> "Nobody works for AT&T or Facebook" - are you /serious/?  AT&T is one of
> the larger companies in the world.  Facebook has a fairly significant
> sized staff.  Those server rooms don't take care of themselves, and
> people don't do it for no pay.
>
> AT&T:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:T
>
> Number of employees:  252,330
>
> Facebook:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=fb
>
> Number of employees:  3,539
>
> Far from "nobody".

OK, so let me get this straight: Out of all the people IN THE ENTIRE 
WORLD, only three thousand of them work for Facebook? And only a quarter 
of a million of them work for AT&T? Yeah, those are some huge percentages...

>> I'm not arguing that liking your job isn't a good thing. I'm arguing
>> that it isn't a common thing.
>
> I've worked in companies with 200 employees and companies with 250,000
> employees.  Most of the people I have known in those companies have liked
> their jobs.

> But all the people I know in the UK also seem to really enjoy what they
> do.  Now I don't know everyone in the UK, probably not even enough to
> constitute a statistical sample - but of the ones I know, you're the only
> one who actively /hates/ his job.

I guess when The Bangles sang "Manic Monday", nobody could relate to 
waking up on Monday morning and dreading going to work, which explains 
why the song sold to well.

>>>> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...
>>>
>>> m-/
>>>
>>> Do you use an ad blocker?
>>
>> Not until recently.
>
> Then you must not use Google a lot.  Oh, wait....

Alternatively, maybe there aren't many adverts actually related to 
"transfinite cardinal numbers" or something...

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:17:22 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> Given that we were discussing my next career move, don't you think if
>>> she knew who I need to speak to, she might have mentioned this exact
>>> fact?
>>
>> Not necessarily.  In fact, if she were to get a referral bonus, I'd
>> expect her not to tell you, but to take your info and submit it
>> internally herself.
> 
> Well, she didn't offer to do that either. She just said "you should
> totally apply here".

Then you should do that.  Or ask her if she might be able to help/gets a 
referral bonus.

>>> I assumed it's just that I'm not worth hiring...
>>
>> We've talked about this before, Andy.  If you go through the front
>> door, you're on the same level as everyone else applying for the job. 
>> One way to get an advantage - and to show initiative - is to find other
>> ways to get your info in front of the hiring manager.
> 
> Given that I don't even really understand the correct procedure for
> getting in the front door, it seems unlikely that I'd succeed trying to
> talk my way in through the back. And, at the end of the day, if I'm not
> worth hiring, they aren't going to hire me, no matter what I do.

You'd probably do better with the back door rather than doing the same 
thing everyone else is doing.

>>>> You know someone at Unisys, you said.
>>>
>>> I don't think I did...
>>
>> Um, not the person that you above said "I don't think she knows anybody
>> in a hiring position."?
> 
> No. Network Rail.

That makes no sense to me.

>> What do you /like/ doing?  You might be surprised at what people will
>> actually pay for.
> 
> Nobody is going to pay me to write a ray-tracer. [...]

You didn't answer my question.  What do you /like/ doing?

>>> If I can't convince anybody to hire me to write Java (pro tip: Java is
>>> popular), then nobody is ever going to hire me to write Haskell.
>>
>> Wrong, wrong, wrong.  If you're competent in Haskell and that's what
>> they're looking for, then being one of a smaller number of developers
>> who write in a language that they're using is far, far better than
>> being one of the billion people (yes, hyperbole, but there are a /lot/
>> of Java programmers out there) who can write code in Java.
> 
> It puts me in a smaller pool of employees, but it also puts them in a
> smaller pool of employers.

It's not the size of the pool of employees or the size of the pool of 
employers, it's the relative sizes of each and whether there's *one* 
opportunity that's a good fit.

And unless you're willing to take the time to *look* and *do* something, 
you'll never know.

>>>> If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.
>>>
>>> For twenty years, it /was/ that unpopular.
>>
>> Yet it still exists.
> 
> See, the thing is, when you're not making a product for profit, it
> doesn't /matter/ whether it's popular or not. It doesn't /need/ to be
> popular in order to exist.

*sigh*  It's survived for 20 years.  It hasn't died out.  People use it 
for stuff.  Corporations use it for stuff.  Corporations pay people to 
program in it.  That means YOU CAN GET A JOB DOING IT.

>>> Sure, but nobody works for AT&T or Facebook. (Actually, given our
>>> earlier discussion, I wouldn't /want/ to work for Facebook...)
>>
>> "Nobody works for AT&T or Facebook" - are you /serious/?  AT&T is one
>> of the larger companies in the world.  Facebook has a fairly
>> significant sized staff.  Those server rooms don't take care of
>> themselves, and people don't do it for no pay.
>>
>> AT&T:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:T
>>
>> Number of employees:  252,330
>>
>> Facebook:  https://www.google.com/finance?q=fb
>>
>> Number of employees:  3,539
>>
>> Far from "nobody".
> 
> OK, so let me get this straight: Out of all the people IN THE ENTIRE
> WORLD, only three thousand of them work for Facebook? And only a quarter
> of a million of them work for AT&T? Yeah, those are some huge
> percentages...

*sigh*

How many people work for the company you CURRENTLY work for?

One of the companies I worked for was about the size of AT&T.  I was one 
of about 2 dozen systems engineers when I was hired.

And one of about 600 in the IT department as a whole (which included a 
lot of developers).

It's not about the percentage of the global population that works for the 
organisation.  Again, it's about finding a position.

You can continue to despair that nobody's going to hire you and just give 
up, or you can put the effort in to try to find something.

The latter is more productive.  It takes time, it takes rejection, but 
eventually, YOU WILL GET A BETTER JOB IF YOU WORK AT IT.

>> But all the people I know in the UK also seem to really enjoy what they
>> do.  Now I don't know everyone in the UK, probably not even enough to
>> constitute a statistical sample - but of the ones I know, you're the
>> only one who actively /hates/ his job.
> 
> I guess when The Bangles sang "Manic Monday", nobody could relate to
> waking up on Monday morning and dreading going to work, which explains
> why the song sold to well.

Of course people sometimes don't want to get up in the morning and go to 
work on Monday.  *Some* people even do that every Monday.  I know people 
who love their jobs who don't want to work on Mondays.  That doesn't mean 
they don't love their jobs.  It means they're human.

It also doesn't mean there aren't days that they don't bounce out of bed 
in the morning and look forward to what they're going to do.

>>>>> You say "adwords", but I've yet to see it...
>>>>
>>>> m-/
>>>>
>>>> Do you use an ad blocker?
>>>
>>> Not until recently.
>>
>> Then you must not use Google a lot.  Oh, wait....
> 
> Alternatively, maybe there aren't many adverts actually related to
> "transfinite cardinal numbers" or something...

You'd see other types of ads.  They don't just display ads related to 
your searches; if your searches are frequently things that they don't 
advertise for, you'll get generic ads.

Jim

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Le 2012-06-09 10:27, Orchid Win7 v1 a écrit :
> On 09/06/2012 03:11 PM, Francois Labreque wrote:
>> Le 2012-06-08 06:18, Invisible a écrit :
>>> I don't know that there are any sites that do /exactly/ what Linked-In
>>> does. But there are plenty of sites that let you search humans for
>>> various reasons. (Exhibit A: Monster.)
>>>
>>
>> Monster is nothing like LinkedIn. Linked-In is much closer to Facebook
>> than Monster.
>
> Both LinkedIn and Monster let you search for humans for work-related
> purposes though. That was the comparison I was going for.
>
>> In Linked-in, you are supposed to build a network of contacts (school
>> buddies, coworkers, family, etc...), which then lets you get introduced
>> to THEIR contacts, etc... Hopefully helping you on your quest to find a
>> good job. E.g.: There's this guy in your dance classes that works in
>> accounting at a big company. You become a contact in LinkedIn. While
>> taking a break, he mentions the sad state of their IT. YOu say: "I
>> betcha I could help improve things." The next day, you ask him over
>> LinkedIn to introduce you to his HR rep or IT manager. you get
>> introduced, you go on an interview, you may not get hired, but the HR
>> person knows you exist, and when the time comes to hire an Haskell
>> expert, she'll have one in her network already.
>
> That's a great story. Pity I don't know anybody like that...
>

How do you know that no one you know works for a company that is looking 
for a sysadmin, a programmer, a desk-side support technician, or a 
church organ player?

There was an article posted here a while back, by Darren I think, that 
included this sentence that is very appropriate: "Job offers move at the 
speed of beer".  This means that simply putting your resumé on Monster 
or your blogspot page is not enough, you need to network.  If you are 
looking for work, you need to BUILD and MAINTAIN relationships with 
other people who will (a) let you know of opportunities and (b) may even 
put in a good word about you.

>> Just like Facebook or Myspace, LinkedIn lets post blog-like messages;
>> you can make recommendations on books, seminars, speeches, and other
>> people's work. You can also participate in various forums on a variety
>> of topics.
>>
>> You can (and could back in 2007, when I joined! so it must have been
>> there when you did too) also join trade groups, alumni groups, interest
>> groups, etc... All have mailing lists that will let you know of other
>> group members' postings, forum discussions, etc...
>
> 1. I had no idea that any of this functionality existed.
>
> 2. I'm not really sure how you would use such functionality to do
> anything "useful". (Not that I'm saying you can't, I'm just saying I'm
> not sure how.)
>

Posting in say, a Haskell forum, or general programming forum, might get 
you noticed by the recruiters who scour the site looking for potential 
candidates, or by other programmers who might say "Boss, I don't have 
time to work on this project, but I might know just the guy for you!"

-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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Le 2012-06-09 14:42, Orchid Win7 v1 a écrit :
> That's impressive and everything, but... why would any of these people
> give a damn about me? I'm nobody.
>

HE'S JUST A POOR BOY FORM A POOR FAMILY
SPARE HIM HIS LIFE FROM THIS MONSTROSISTY!


-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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Le 2012-06-11 04:17, Invisible a écrit :
> Nobody is going to pay me to write a ray-tracer. Because, as cool as
> that is, it's a solved problem.  Similarly, nobody is going to pay me to
> sit around playing with compression algorithms or designing weak ciphers
> or generating pretty pictures from sound signals or...you know what?
 > These things are all very cool, but none of them actually generate
 > money.

I just spend 8 hours looking at a foetal cardiac / contraction monitor. 
  They were using a custom software made for hospitals.  Do you think 
the company that made this software made it out of the goodness of their 
heart?  No.  They made it for money.

Right before my wife told me we needed to go to the hospital to see if 
everything is ok (it was!  we're back home), I was watching expensive 
cars go reaaaaallly fast around a racetrack.  The tv channel had a cool 
graph that shoew the RPMs of the engines based on the pitch of their 
sound.  Do you think that the company that made this software, made it 
for fun?  No.  They were paid for it.

Making pretty pictures out of sounds DOES make money.


> What people /actually/ want is somebody who can migrate their SQL
> Server database to Oracle, or find a way to run a legacy MS-DOS program
> on a shiny new server farm, or something like that.
>

While these might be in higher demand, there's sometimes demand for 
quirkier skills.

>>> If I can't convince anybody to hire me to write Java (pro tip: Java is
>>> popular), then nobody is ever going to hire me to write Haskell.
>>
>> Wrong, wrong, wrong. If you're competent in Haskell and that's what
>> they're looking for, then being one of a smaller number of developers who
>> write in a language that they're using is far, far better than being one
>> of the billion people (yes, hyperbole, but there are a /lot/ of Java
>> programmers out there) who can write code in Java.
>
> It puts me in a smaller pool of employees, but it also puts them in a
> smaller pool of employers.
>

Most entreprise grade software solution, from HR, to accounts 
payable/receivable, to inventory management, to industrial control 
system has some java-based doohickie somewhere.

>>>> If the language were that unpopular, it would cease to exist.
>>>
>>> For twenty years, it /was/ that unpopular.
>>
>> Yet it still exists.
>
> See, the thing is, when you're not making a product for profit, it
> doesn't /matter/ whether it's popular or not. It doesn't /need/ to be
> popular in order to exist.
>

It's not like every single web site out there uses java, or anything 
like that...

-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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On 11/06/2012 02:47 PM, Francois Labreque wrote:

> HE'S JUST A POOR BOY FORM A POOR FAMILY
> SPARE HIM HIS LIFE FROM THIS MONSTROSISTY!

Galileo?

Post a reply to this message

On 6/11/2012 6:46, Francois Labreque wrote:
> There was an article posted here a while back, by Darren I think, that
> included this sentence that is very appropriate: "Job offers move at th
e
> speed of beer".

I don't remember that, but it's certainly true. :-)

 > This means that simply putting your resumé on Monster or
> your blogspot page is not enough, you need to network. If you are looki
ng
> for work, you need to BUILD and MAINTAIN relationships with other peopl
e who
> will (a) let you know of opportunities and (b) may even put in a good w
ord
> about you.

As an aside, I have had exactly three jobs in my career that I got by 
applying for them without already knowing the people I'd be working for. 

I've had a dozen or more because some guy I knew needed someone who could
 do 
what I do, and called me up and said "come work here."

> Posting in say, a Haskell forum, or general programming forum, might ge
t you
> noticed by the recruiters who scour the site looking for potential
> candidates, or by other programmers who might say "Boss, I don't have t
ime
> to work on this project, but I might know just the guy for you!"

And I'd suggest giving your writings a wider distribution too.

For example, go to reddit.com/r/programming and post them there, marked "
OC" 
(Original Content). There are hundreds or thousands of people there starv
ing 
to read about cool stuff like that, as an example, and lots of them work 
at 
places better than your place!

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
   "Don't panic. There's beans and filters
    in the cabinet."

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On 16/06/2012 05:32 PM, Darren New wrote:

> And I'd suggest giving your writings a wider distribution too.
>
> For example, go to reddit.com/r/programming and post them there, marked
> "OC" (Original Content). There are hundreds or thousands of people there
> starving to read about cool stuff like that, as an example, and lots of
> them work at places better than your place!

I'd ask "what the heck is reddit", but no doubt everybody will just tell 
me to Google it. (As if that explains anything...)

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On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:16:53 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> On 16/06/2012 05:32 PM, Darren New wrote:
> 
>> And I'd suggest giving your writings a wider distribution too.
>>
>> For example, go to reddit.com/r/programming and post them there, marked
>> "OC" (Original Content). There are hundreds or thousands of people
>> there starving to read about cool stuff like that, as an example, and
>> lots of them work at places better than your place!
> 
> I'd ask "what the heck is reddit", but no doubt everybody will just tell
> me to Google it. (As if that explains anything...)

First hit of searching points to the reddit site, and includes the text 
(from the page):

"User-generated news links. Votes promote stories to the front page."

So yeah, that does explain something about it. :P

Jim

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On 6/16/2012 13:16, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> I'd ask "what the heck is reddit", but no doubt everybody will just tell me
> to Google it. (As if that explains anything...)

Or you could, you know, go to the URL I gave to see what's there.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
   "Don't panic. There's beans and filters
    in the cabinet."

Post a reply to this message