On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:25:38 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 18/05/2012 8:57 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> LOL.:)   BTW, I was shocked (shocked, I say!)
> 
> Bzzz! Repetition.

Awwww. ;)

>> that there was no Mornington Crescent in the last series.
> 
> I did not really notice. It's one song to the tune of another that I
> look forward to.

We noticed, though I'm more partial to the Uxbridge English Dictionary.  
But OSttToA is also lots of fun. :)

Jim

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On Fri, 18 May 2012 23:27:38 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> I played for about 2 years, total. And that was 20 years ago...
>>
>> See, the impression you gave about this previously was that you had
>> many years' experience playing.  2 years isn't enough to get a lot of
>> expertise in playing an instrument.  You said you sucked at it.  You
>> didn't say that you only played for 2 years when you were<  11 years
>> old.
>>
>> That makes a difference.
> 
> I did say I wasn't much good in the first place. ;-)

No, you lamented how after years of practice, you weren't any good.  2 
years starting at age 9 doesn't constitute "years of practice". :P

> As you presumably know, the characteristic sound of the violin comes
> from playing with vibrato - which is absurdly difficult. They don't
> teach you how to do that until you're already a really good player.

Again, not something you learn at age 9.  I think my lessons started 
including vibrato in middle school.

At age 9, it's "absurdly difficult" because you don't generally have the 
necessary motor control at that age.

>> If it were /easy/, then everyone could play like Itzhak Perlman.
> 
> Uh... who?

World famous violinist from Israel, paralyzed from the waist down due to 
polio.  Did the solo work in Schindler's List, among other things.

Plays a Stradivarius and can really make it sing.

Wait a sec.  I forgot who I'm talking to. <facepalm>

> I did find some page on the Internet which shows you how to hold the
> violin itself and the bow. And then it says "already, bring on the
> Paganini!" As if anybody is going to be able to play Paganini after
> reading a few web pages...

And if you believe that .... well, I cannot stop you from believing such 
nonsense.

> What I'm saying is, you can pick up a guitar and make a half-decent
> sound with it in about ten minutes. Because a guitar is not a
> particularly sensitive instrument. A violin is much, much harder.
> Because it's very, very sensitive. That means you can do much more with
> it, but also that it takes far more effort.

It's not "very, very sensitive", but the nature of it being bowed means 
that it's not as simple to play as plucking a string.  If you play 
pizzicato on a violin and hold it like a guitar, you can actually get 
sound out of it (in fact, that's how I actually started playing, that was 
how they taught students where I went to school).

> Having just said all that, I haven't played a violin for 20 years. I
> wasn't that good in the first place. 

You had *2 bloody years* of instruction!!!!!  You *wouldn't* be very good 
at it in the first place with only 2 years of instruction, especially if 
your teacher was as crap as it sounds.

As much as you might like to believe it, there's absolutely NO WAY you're 
going to be playing Paganini after 2 years of instruction.  Not on the 
violin, not on the piano, not on the guitar.

> But I have now reached the point
> where, provided I stick to the key of D major, I can play simple
> melodies which sound more or less in tune, with a tone that isn't
> horrifyingly awful. When you consider how long it took to get that good
> the /first/ time around, that's not bad...
> 
>>> So far, I basically haven't used the E-string at all. The pressure of
>>> the bow on the string seems to be enough to put it out of tune. And as
>>> soon as I put a finger on it, it becomes almost completely mute.
>>
>> That tells me that the pegs are definitely not right for the peg holes,
>> and you should get someone to take a look at it.
> 
> It strikes me that this violin was probably on sale in a charity shop
> /for a reason/. ;-)

Very likely.  But it sounds repairable.

> I'm hoping to pay a visit to the local music shop tomorrow. (Like all
> shops, they deliberately open an hour after I leave for work, and shut
> an hour before I get home again.) I'll get them to take a look at it and
> see what they say. I might also be able to pick up a new violin and see
> if there's any noticeable difference in sound quality.

Given what you've said about your financial situation, it's not likely 
you'll be able to afford a violin that has good tonal qualities.  Back in 
the 80's when I started playing, when I was big enough for a full-size 
violin, my parents bought one.  It cost about $1500, but was on sale.

The bow that I have (which needs to be rehaired) was about $300 as I 
recall.

A violin that doesn't sound like crap costs a little bit of money.  
Mine's not a Stradivarius (it's a copy of a Guenari, though - according 
to the label - and Guenari studied under the same maker IIRC as 
Stradivarius did).

>>> Also, I have bruised fingertips now. :-/
>>
>> Yep, that'll happen until you get callouses on your fingertips.  That's
>> part of the reason I haven't played in several years - I don't have
>> those callouses, but I have the dexterity, and it does hurt to play. 
>> Feels like I'm cutting into my fingertips with a dull knife.
> 
> Even when I was being taught by professionals, I always hated the
> E-string. That thing is /basically/ a piece of cheese wire. That's what
> it is, you're pressing a cheese wire into your fingertips. Ouch! >_<

You get used to it after a while.  But I'd argue that you weren't "taught 
by professionals" if you didn't learn how to tune it.

> I'm really excited to have a violin in my life again. But everybody else
> I've told about it has said "urgh, I *hate* violin!" Ho hum. Forever
> unappreciated, eh? It would be nice to be able to play well, but
> realistically I doubt I have the time or money to make that a reality.
> So I'm just going to see how far I can get with it. We'll see what
> happens after that.

That's the spirit - as much as what I've said above here is somewhat out 
of frustration - you *shouldn't* care what my opinion is.  If you're 
having fun doing it, and aren't expecting a miracle in terms of learning 
speed, have fun with it.

> PS. Ever tried playing flute? That's pretty hard too. When I was first
> given one, it took the entire household about a month to collectively
> figure out how to get a single note out of it... ;-)

I haven't, but my stepson did for a while, and my wife has a friend who 
is now (AFAIK) playing with the New York Philharmonic.  From what I 
understand, playing flute is like blowing over the top of a soda bottle - 
that's how you get sound out of it.

My brother played/plays oboe.  And keyboards, but he really loves playing 
the oboe.  If you think flute is hard, you should try a double-reed 
instrument.  I tried making noise just with the reed once, and it was 
extremely difficult.

Jim

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>> I did say I wasn't much good in the first place. ;-)
>
> No, you lamented how after years of practice, you weren't any good.  2
> years starting at age 9 doesn't constitute "years of practice". :P

When did I say that?

The violin is a very hard instrument to play. I /know/ I was never that 
great at it, and I didn't expect to be. Something this hard takes a 
lifetime to master.

>> As you presumably know, the characteristic sound of the violin comes
>> from playing with vibrato - which is absurdly difficult. They don't
>> teach you how to do that until you're already a really good player.
>
> Again, not something you learn at age 9.  I think my lessons started
> including vibrato in middle school.
>
> At age 9, it's "absurdly difficult" because you don't generally have the
> necessary motor control at that age.

It looks pretty difficult for an adult to do too. Not that I've actually 
tried...

>> I did find some page on the Internet which shows you how to hold the
>> violin itself and the bow. And then it says "already, bring on the
>> Paganini!" As if anybody is going to be able to play Paganini after
>> reading a few web pages...
>
> And if you believe that .... well, I cannot stop you from believing such
> nonsense.

Clearly my sarcasm is not biting enough. :-P

> As much as you might like to believe it, there's absolutely NO WAY you're
> going to be playing Paganini after 2 years of instruction.  Not on the
> violin, not on the piano, not on the guitar.

I don't expect to /ever/ be playing Paganini - and I'm not sure how I 
gave the impression that I think otherwise...

> Given what you've said about your financial situation, it's not likely
> you'll be able to afford a violin that has good tonal qualities.

> A violin that doesn't sound like crap costs a little bit of money.

I'm fairly sure even a genuine Stradivarius would sound awful in my 
hands. But hey, it's not like I'm intending to join a concert orchestra. 
If I can get to the point where I can play a tune and have it sound 
reasonable, that'll do for me.

>> Even when I was being taught by professionals, I always hated the
>> E-string. That thing is /basically/ a piece of cheese wire. That's what
>> it is, you're pressing a cheese wire into your fingertips. Ouch!>_<
>
> You get used to it after a while.  But I'd argue that you weren't "taught
> by professionals" if you didn't learn how to tune it.

In fairness, I'd imagine they do teach you that a little later on. It's 
just that our music teacher retired, and then music lessons vanished off 
the school timetable. (All the instruments vanished too. Today, that 
school's music lessons consist of kids aimlessly bashing electronic 
keyboards while the teacher tries to make 'em pay attention...)

>> I'm really excited to have a violin in my life again. But everybody else
>> I've told about it has said "urgh, I *hate* violin!" Ho hum. Forever
>> unappreciated, eh? It would be nice to be able to play well, but
>> realistically I doubt I have the time or money to make that a reality.
>> So I'm just going to see how far I can get with it. We'll see what
>> happens after that.
>
> That's the spirit - as much as what I've said above here is somewhat out
> of frustration - you *shouldn't* care what my opinion is.  If you're
> having fun doing it, and aren't expecting a miracle in terms of learning
> speed, have fun with it.

I intend to. So far, I've only found one person who seems excited by 
this, which is a little disappointing. But hey, we'll see how it goes...

>> PS. Ever tried playing flute? That's pretty hard too.
>
> I haven't, but my stepson did for a while, and my wife has a friend who
> is now (AFAIK) playing with the New York Philharmonic.  From what I
> understand, playing flute is like blowing over the top of a soda bottle -
> that's how you get sound out of it.

If you just blow into it, nothing happens. It seems it works on the same 
principle as a pipe organ; you direct a narrow stream of air against a 
hard edge. In a pipe organ (or a recorder), you've got a vent to do that 
for you. With a flute, you have to do this weird contortion of your face 
where you blow downwards, and you need to hit the edge of the air hole. 
It's actually quite easy once you get the knack...

(Making it /sound good/ is probably a whole other matter. But I've only 
got a cheap little bamboo flute. It sounds pleasant enough.)

> My brother played/plays oboe.  And keyboards, but he really loves playing
> the oboe.  If you think flute is hard, you should try a double-reed
> instrument.  I tried making noise just with the reed once, and it was
> extremely difficult.

Ah, the oboe. Another expressive instrument. Yeah, I bet that's hard...

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On 19/05/2012 2:46 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> We noticed, though I'm more partial to the Uxbridge English Dictionary.

Since I am living in that fayre town, I'll look out for a copy of it for 
you. ;-)

> But OSttToA is also lots of fun.:)

I like it because I am so duff at music.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Sat, 19 May 2012 15:52:22 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 19/05/2012 2:46 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> We noticed, though I'm more partial to the Uxbridge English Dictionary.
> 
> Since I am living in that fayre town, I'll look out for a copy of it for
> you. ;-)

As it happens, I have a copy already. :)

>> But OSttToA is also lots of fun.:)
> 
> I like it because I am so duff at music.

I like it because of the creativity involved in getting the words to fit 
to a different tune, and how well it usually turns out.

Except for when Jeremy does it, of course.

Jim

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On Sat, 19 May 2012 10:56:09 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> I did say I wasn't much good in the first place. ;-)
>>
>> No, you lamented how after years of practice, you weren't any good.  2
>> years starting at age 9 doesn't constitute "years of practice". :P
> 
> When did I say that?

Well, I'd give a cite, but it's been a couple of years ago, and it may 
well just be that that was the impression you gave rather than saying it 
explicitly.

> The violin is a very hard instrument to play. I /know/ I was never that
> great at it, and I didn't expect to be. Something this hard takes a
> lifetime to master.

Ironically, the reason I started was because I saw a demonstration and 
said "that looks easy, I could do that", and I did.  And I was actually 
pretty good at it, too (hence the trip to the USSR to perform with the 
orchestra I was in).

>> Again, not something you learn at age 9.  I think my lessons started
>> including vibrato in middle school.
>>
>> At age 9, it's "absurdly difficult" because you don't generally have
>> the necessary motor control at that age.
> 
> It looks pretty difficult for an adult to do too. Not that I've actually
> tried...

This is another of those "it's not something you can pick up instantly" 
things.  It's actually pretty easy once you learn how.

>>> I did find some page on the Internet which shows you how to hold the
>>> violin itself and the bow. And then it says "already, bring on the
>>> Paganini!" As if anybody is going to be able to play Paganini after
>>> reading a few web pages...
>>
>> And if you believe that .... well, I cannot stop you from believing
>> such nonsense.
> 
> Clearly my sarcasm is not biting enough. :-P

Perhaps a variant of Poe's Law is in play here. :)

>> Given what you've said about your financial situation, it's not likely
>> you'll be able to afford a violin that has good tonal qualities.
> 
>> A violin that doesn't sound like crap costs a little bit of money.
> 
> I'm fairly sure even a genuine Stradivarius would sound awful in my
> hands. But hey, it's not like I'm intending to join a concert orchestra.
> If I can get to the point where I can play a tune and have it sound
> reasonable, that'll do for me.

There is certainly technique you'll need to acquire.  Figuring out the 
right amount of pressure and the corresponding speed to draw the bow so 
it doesn't sound scratchy, making sure you're moving the bow parallel to 
the bridge (and between the bridge and end of the fingerboard, with a few 
exceptions).  Hitting the right notes, of course - as a fretless 
instrument, it takes practice to build the muscle memory to consistently 
hit notes in tune.

The way I was taught was to put a little strip of tape in the normal 
positions for each finger.

>>> Even when I was being taught by professionals, I always hated the
>>> E-string. That thing is /basically/ a piece of cheese wire. That's
>>> what it is, you're pressing a cheese wire into your fingertips.
>>> Ouch!>_<
>>
>> You get used to it after a while.  But I'd argue that you weren't
>> "taught by professionals" if you didn't learn how to tune it.
> 
> In fairness, I'd imagine they do teach you that a little later on. It's
> just that our music teacher retired, and then music lessons vanished off
> the school timetable. (All the instruments vanished too. Today, that
> school's music lessons consist of kids aimlessly bashing electronic
> keyboards while the teacher tries to make 'em pay attention...)

Sounds like you could've been going to an American school with that 
progression.  ;)

>> That's the spirit - as much as what I've said above here is somewhat
>> out of frustration - you *shouldn't* care what my opinion is.  If
>> you're having fun doing it, and aren't expecting a miracle in terms of
>> learning speed, have fun with it.
> 
> I intend to. So far, I've only found one person who seems excited by
> this, which is a little disappointing. But hey, we'll see how it goes...

So don't get me wrong, I'm excited for you as well - it's hard to express 
that especially when sometimes you say things that are completely 
baffling. ;)  But just like when you figured out that you enjoy dancing, 
I'm happy that you've found something else that you can enjoy doing.  :)

>>> PS. Ever tried playing flute? That's pretty hard too.
>>
>> I haven't, but my stepson did for a while, and my wife has a friend who
>> is now (AFAIK) playing with the New York Philharmonic.  From what I
>> understand, playing flute is like blowing over the top of a soda bottle
>> -
>> that's how you get sound out of it.
> 
> If you just blow into it, nothing happens. It seems it works on the same
> principle as a pipe organ; you direct a narrow stream of air against a
> hard edge. In a pipe organ (or a recorder), you've got a vent to do that
> for you. With a flute, you have to do this weird contortion of your face
> where you blow downwards, and you need to hit the edge of the air hole.
> It's actually quite easy once you get the knack...

Yeah, almost exactly like making a soda bottle whistle.

> (Making it /sound good/ is probably a whole other matter. But I've only
> got a cheap little bamboo flute. It sounds pleasant enough.)
> 
>> My brother played/plays oboe.  And keyboards, but he really loves
>> playing the oboe.  If you think flute is hard, you should try a
>> double-reed instrument.  I tried making noise just with the reed once,
>> and it was extremely difficult.
> 
> Ah, the oboe. Another expressive instrument. Yeah, I bet that's hard...

The thing with Steve playing the oboe was he decided he wanted to play it 
at a very young age.  Too young, in fact - it requires a fair amount of 
strength in the embouchure, and he wanted to start when he was 8 or 9 
years old (2nd or 3rd grade), before his embouchure was developed enough 
to handle the physical forces involved.

So he started with piano, but he started on oboe in 4th grade (5th is 
when band instruments are usually started in the schools I went to), and 
he got very good at it very quickly.  So quickly, in fact, that by the 
time he was in the 6th grade (which was the last grade in elementary 
school at the time), he was completely bored with the music they were 
playing.

He had private lessons from an oboist in the Minnesota Orchestra, so that 
kept him challenged.

Jim

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> Ironically, the reason I started was because I saw a demonstration and
> said "that looks easy, I could do that", and I did.  And I was actually
> pretty good at it, too (hence the trip to the USSR to perform with the
> orchestra I was in).

Sounds like how I started playing pipe organ. I saw a guy play the Widor 
Toccata and decided to see if I could play it. Apparently, I can... 
(It's wicked hard, though.)

>> I'm fairly sure even a genuine Stradivarius would sound awful in my
>> hands.
>
> There is certainly technique you'll need to acquire.  Figuring out the
> right amount of pressure and the corresponding speed to draw the bow so
> it doesn't sound scratchy, making sure you're moving the bow parallel to
> the bridge (and between the bridge and end of the fingerboard, with a few
> exceptions).  Hitting the right notes, of course - as a fretless
> instrument, it takes practice to build the muscle memory to consistently
> hit notes in tune.
>
> The way I was taught was to put a little strip of tape in the normal
> positions for each finger.

Clearly I'm going to have to figure out how to get my hands on 
professional tuition...

>> I intend to. So far, I've only found one person who seems excited by
>> this, which is a little disappointing. But hey, we'll see how it goes...
>
> So don't get me wrong, I'm excited for you as well - it's hard to express
> that especially when sometimes you say things that are completely
> baffling. ;)  But just like when you figured out that you enjoy dancing,
> I'm happy that you've found something else that you can enjoy doing.  :)

I enjoy doing it. And then the day after, my fingers hate me... ;-)

>> Ah, the oboe. Another expressive instrument. Yeah, I bet that's hard...
>
> The thing with Steve playing the oboe was he decided he wanted to play it
> at a very young age.  Too young, in fact - it requires a fair amount of
> strength in the embouchure, and he wanted to start when he was 8 or 9
> years old (2nd or 3rd grade), before his embouchure was developed enough
> to handle the physical forces involved.
>
> So he started with piano, but he started on oboe in 4th grade (5th is
> when band instruments are usually started in the schools I went to), and
> he got very good at it very quickly.  So quickly, in fact, that by the
> time he was in the 6th grade (which was the last grade in elementary
> school at the time), he was completely bored with the music they were
> playing.
>
> He had private lessons from an oboist in the Minnesota Orchestra, so that
> kept him challenged.

It must be fantastic to actually be good at something. I can't imagine 
what that's like...

(Well, maybe I can. I've discovered that the more you learn how to do 
something - anything - the more you realise how drastically wrong you're 
doing it! And no matter how good you are, somebody else is always 
better. It's just a matter of how far you need to go to find that person...)

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On 19/05/2012 7:25 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Except for when Jeremy does it, of course.

My hero. :-D

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Sun, 20 May 2012 11:46:09 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 19/05/2012 7:25 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Except for when Jeremy does it, of course.
> 
> My hero. :-D

LOL

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 20 May 2012 10:39:36 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> Ironically, the reason I started was because I saw a demonstration and
>> said "that looks easy, I could do that", and I did.  And I was actually
>> pretty good at it, too (hence the trip to the USSR to perform with the
>> orchestra I was in).
> 
> Sounds like how I started playing pipe organ. I saw a guy play the Widor
> Toccata and decided to see if I could play it. Apparently, I can...
> (It's wicked hard, though.)

Some people have a knack for certain things. :)

>> The way I was taught was to put a little strip of tape in the normal
>> positions for each finger.
> 
> Clearly I'm going to have to figure out how to get my hands on
> professional tuition...

Private lessons might be the best way to go.  Not sure what pricing is 
like now, but a lot of professional musicians do offer private lessons 
(you could also look for University music students who give private 
lessons - often times those will be less expensive and the instruction 
will be good enough to get you going).

>> So don't get me wrong, I'm excited for you as well - it's hard to
>> express that especially when sometimes you say things that are
>> completely baffling. ;)  But just like when you figured out that you
>> enjoy dancing, I'm happy that you've found something else that you can
>> enjoy doing.  :)
> 
> I enjoy doing it. And then the day after, my fingers hate me... ;-)

That sounds about right for the first 6 months or so.

>> He had private lessons from an oboist in the Minnesota Orchestra, so
>> that kept him challenged.
> 
> It must be fantastic to actually be good at something. I can't imagine
> what that's like...

Actually, you don't have to imagine it.  You're good at some stuff - and 
nobody is good at everything.

You seem to have a good grasp on maths, programming, playing the pipe 
organ (as you said, there's something you play on it that's "wicked hard" 
- so clearly you don't /suck/ at it), writing, and dancing.  And that's 
just from what I've seen you post here about and blog about.

> (Well, maybe I can. I've discovered that the more you learn how to do
> something - anything - the more you realise how drastically wrong you're
> doing it! And no matter how good you are, somebody else is always
> better. It's just a matter of how far you need to go to find that
> person...)

It's certainly a truism that the more you know about something, the more 
you realize you don't know everything about it.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> Clearly I'm going to have to figure out how to get my hands on
>> professional tuition...
>
> Private lessons might be the best way to go.  Not sure what pricing is
> like now, but a lot of professional musicians do offer private lessons
> (you could also look for University music students who give private
> lessons - often times those will be less expensive and the instruction
> will be good enough to get you going).

I'll see what I can find.

>> I enjoy doing it. And then the day after, my fingers hate me... ;-)
>
> That sounds about right for the first 6 months or so.

Just like playing the guitar, or probably any other stringed instrument.

>> It must be fantastic to actually be good at something. I can't imagine
>> what that's like...
>
> Actually, you don't have to imagine it.  You're good at some stuff - and
> nobody is good at everything.
>
> You seem to have a good grasp on maths, programming, playing the pipe
> organ (as you said, there's something you play on it that's "wicked hard"
> - so clearly you don't /suck/ at it), writing, and dancing.  And that's
> just from what I've seen you post here about and blog about.

Well, there's being "good at" something, and then there's being "great 
at" something.

I can play the Widor toccata - just not very well. I can write computer 
programs, but according to Warp and Darren I suck at that. I'm competing 
in a national dance competition, but I don't exactly expect to be 
bringing home any medals. The list goes on. Basically there's a whole 
range of things that I'm vaguely good at, but nothing that's really 
going to /impress/ anybody.

It's a pity really, because impressing people seems to be what I'm 
hard-wired to want to do...

> It's certainly a truism that the more you know about something, the more
> you realize you don't know everything about it.

I know, right? So you go to a dance class, and you learn the Waltz. And 
there are, like, 3 steps in it, and nobody can do it. At all. And 
eventually, after a few months, you get to the point where you can do 
those 3 steps. And you think "hey, I can Waltz!"

And over time, you come to realise that, actually, to Waltz /properly/, 
you're supposed to stand a certain way, hold your arm a certain way, 
step in a certain way, sway a certain way, and basically that thing 
you're doing is NOTHING LIKE how a Waltz is actually supposed to look. 
You can't Waltz, you SUCK at the Waltz! :-/

It seems that everything is like that. When I was a kid, I used to write 
computer programs in BASIC, and I thought that made me a programmer. 
Then you have people tell you "hey, global variables are evil" and "GOTO 
is evil" and "your code is completely non-maintainable" and basically 
you realise that you're doing it HORRIBLY WRONG.

It seems in every sphere, the more you learn, the more you realise that 
there's so much stuff you don't know that it seems impossible that you 
could ever learn it all. You haven't even STARTED!

Truly, the greatest knowledge is in knowing that you know NOTHING.

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On Mon, 21 May 2012 09:54:36 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> I enjoy doing it. And then the day after, my fingers hate me... ;-)
>>
>> That sounds about right for the first 6 months or so.
> 
> Just like playing the guitar, or probably any other stringed instrument.

I don't have any experience with the guitar (so Warp will probably 
correct me as he does and is pretty good from what I've seen), but I 
think with the frets, you don't have to apply as much pressure as you do 
on a fretless instrument, so it probably doesn't induce the same amount 
of pain or trouble when you're out of practice.

But both probably build the callouses so you don't have the pain. :)

>> You seem to have a good grasp on maths, programming, playing the pipe
>> organ (as you said, there's something you play on it that's "wicked
>> hard"
>> - so clearly you don't /suck/ at it), writing, and dancing.  And that's
>> just from what I've seen you post here about and blog about.
> 
> Well, there's being "good at" something, and then there's being "great
> at" something.
> 
> I can play the Widor toccata - just not very well. I can write computer
> programs, but according to Warp and Darren I suck at that. I'm competing
> in a national dance competition, but I don't exactly expect to be
> bringing home any medals. The list goes on. Basically there's a whole
> range of things that I'm vaguely good at, but nothing that's really
> going to /impress/ anybody.

I'm impressed that you're willing to try different things.  A lot of 
people who get into your mindset stop trying new things because they're 
afraid of failure.  Courage isn't the same as being without fear.  
Courage is having fear and doing something anyway, taking the risk to try 
something new.

> It's a pity really, because impressing people seems to be what I'm
> hard-wired to want to do...

Most people want to impress people.  The trick is to just keep doing the 
thing you like doing and get better at it.  You're only 30 years old - 
contrary to what you believe, that doesn't make you an "old man".  You've 
got decades ahead of you, and there's a good chance that you'll (a) find 
something you feel you excel at, and (b) you'll be good enough at it that 
people will say "wow" often.

>> It's certainly a truism that the more you know about something, the
>> more you realize you don't know everything about it.
> 
> I know, right? So you go to a dance class, and you learn the Waltz. And
> there are, like, 3 steps in it, and nobody can do it. At all. And
> eventually, after a few months, you get to the point where you can do
> those 3 steps. And you think "hey, I can Waltz!"
> 
> And over time, you come to realise that, actually, to Waltz /properly/,
> you're supposed to stand a certain way, hold your arm a certain way,
> step in a certain way, sway a certain way, and basically that thing
> you're doing is NOTHING LIKE how a Waltz is actually supposed to look.
> You can't Waltz, you SUCK at the Waltz! :-/
> 
> It seems that everything is like that. When I was a kid, I used to write
> computer programs in BASIC, and I thought that made me a programmer.
> Then you have people tell you "hey, global variables are evil" and "GOTO
> is evil" and "your code is completely non-maintainable" and basically
> you realise that you're doing it HORRIBLY WRONG.
> 
> It seems in every sphere, the more you learn, the more you realise that
> there's so much stuff you don't know that it seems impossible that you
> could ever learn it all. You haven't even STARTED!
> 
> Truly, the greatest knowledge is in knowing that you know NOTHING.

They say "ignorance is bliss" - and there is a certain amount of truth in 
that.  But ignorance leads to lots of bad outcomes as well, and I for one 
would rather have a chance at a better outcome than to be blissfully 
unaware of facts.

Jim

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> I don't have any experience with the guitar (so Warp will probably 
> correct me as he does and is pretty good from what I've seen), but I 
> think with the frets, you don't have to apply as much pressure as you do 
> on a fretless instrument, so it probably doesn't induce the same amount 
> of pain or trouble when you're out of practice.

  I have never played a fretless instrument so I really don't know, but
I'm assuming there's not much difference in pressure needed.

  Fretless instruments certainly require more precision because pressing
even slightly on the wrong place will audibly alter the pitch, so you'll
sound like you are playing a badly tuned instrument.

  On the plus side, a fretless instrument allows much easier and richer
vibratos and pitch slides that are much more limited in fretted instruments.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 21/05/2012 07:34 PM, Warp wrote:

>    I have never played a fretless instrument so I really don't know, but
> I'm assuming there's not much difference in pressure needed.

I've found that if I don't press all that hard, the strings sound very 
muted. Presumably because I have soft squishy fingertips. If the string 
was resting against a hard metal fret, that wouldn't matter so much.

But yeah, I don't think there's a /massive/ difference in pressure...

>    Fretless instruments certainly require more precision because pressing
> even slightly on the wrong place will audibly alter the pitch, so you'll
> sound like you are playing a badly tuned instrument.

Oh hell yes! So far, I've spent almost all of my time and effort with 
this violin just trying to get the correct pitch. Pro tip: Notes that 
are out of tune sound GOD DAMNED AWFUL! >_<

>    On the plus side, a fretless instrument allows much easier and richer
> vibratos and pitch slides that are much more limited in fretted instruments.

And that, of course, is what the violin is famous for... ;-)

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> I'm impressed that you're willing to try different things.  A lot of
> people who get into your mindset stop trying new things because they're
> afraid of failure.

More like, failure is something I /expect/, as a matter of course. 
Success isn't something I see very often...

> Courage isn't the same as being without fear.
> Courage is having fear and doing something anyway, taking the risk to try
> something new.

Well now there's a true word.

>> It's a pity really, because impressing people seems to be what I'm
>> hard-wired to want to do...
>
> Most people want to impress people.  The trick is to just keep doing the
> thing you like doing and get better at it.  You're only 30 years old -
> contrary to what you believe, that doesn't make you an "old man".  You've
> got decades ahead of you, and there's a good chance that you'll (a) find
> something you feel you excel at, and (b) you'll be good enough at it that
> people will say "wow" often.

Heh, well, here's to hoping. Sadly, all the things I try seem to be 
things that don't impress anybody. :-(

>> Truly, the greatest knowledge is in knowing that you know NOTHING.
>
> They say "ignorance is bliss" - and there is a certain amount of truth in
> that.  But ignorance leads to lots of bad outcomes as well, and I for one
> would rather have a chance at a better outcome than to be blissfully
> unaware of facts.

Agreed.

(Speaking as somebody who's spent most of their life cluelessly unaware 
of everybody laughing behind my back...)

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On Mon, 21 May 2012 20:04:51 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> I'm impressed that you're willing to try different things.  A lot of
>> people who get into your mindset stop trying new things because they're
>> afraid of failure.
> 
> More like, failure is something I /expect/, as a matter of course.
> Success isn't something I see very often...

I think you need to define success as something less than perfection.  It 
sounds like you're convinced that anything less is failure - and that's 
not true.

>>> It's a pity really, because impressing people seems to be what I'm
>>> hard-wired to want to do...
>>
>> Most people want to impress people.  The trick is to just keep doing
>> the thing you like doing and get better at it.  You're only 30 years
>> old - contrary to what you believe, that doesn't make you an "old man".
>>  You've got decades ahead of you, and there's a good chance that you'll
>> (a) find something you feel you excel at, and (b) you'll be good enough
>> at it that people will say "wow" often.
> 
> Heh, well, here's to hoping. Sadly, all the things I try seem to be
> things that don't impress anybody. :-(

You seem to have missed the part where I said that you impress me by the 
fact that you're willing to take risks and try new things.

>>> Truly, the greatest knowledge is in knowing that you know NOTHING.
>>
>> They say "ignorance is bliss" - and there is a certain amount of truth
>> in that.  But ignorance leads to lots of bad outcomes as well, and I
>> for one would rather have a chance at a better outcome than to be
>> blissfully unaware of facts.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> (Speaking as somebody who's spent most of their life cluelessly unaware
> of everybody laughing behind my back...)

Hyperbole.

Jim

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> And that, of course, is what the violin is famous for... ;-)

  All this talk about violins makes be think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLgBejh5TLA

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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> More like, failure is something I /expect/, as a matter of course.
> Success isn't something I see very often...

To be successful you need to put in the practise, I learned this a long 
time ago.  I thought I would just pick up a guitar, learn the mechanics 
of how to play it and then be able to play songs.  Nope, it doesn't work 
like that.  The people you see able to play songs on instruments have 
practised for a long time, there's no way around it.

Think how much time you've spent on Haskell, I'm sure if you'd spent 
that time on the violin instead you'd be pretty expert by now.

Post a reply to this message

On 22/05/2012 09:22 AM, scott wrote:
>> More like, failure is something I /expect/, as a matter of course.
>> Success isn't something I see very often...
>
> To be successful you need to put in the practise, I learned this a long
> time ago. I thought I would just pick up a guitar, learn the mechanics
> of how to play it and then be able to play songs. Nope, it doesn't work
> like that. The people you see able to play songs on instruments have
> practised for a long time, there's no way around it.
>
> Think how much time you've spent on Haskell, I'm sure if you'd spent
> that time on the violin instead you'd be pretty expert by now.

Well, I've been playing keyboards since I was 9 years old. I mean, I'm 
OK, but I'm still not fantastic at it...

Post a reply to this message

> Well, I've been playing keyboards since I was 9 years old. I mean, I'm
> OK, but I'm still not fantastic at it...

I've also been walking for 30 years, but I'd never win an olympic 
walking event.  To become fantastic at something you need to practise 
properly.  This means always pushing yourself to the next level as hard 
as you can and not just endlessly repeating what you are already good 
at.  This is why you have a teacher or a coach to help you.  And also 
why I suck at guitar and keyboard - I spend ages learning one song and 
then just play that endlessly, much to the annoyance of everybody else :-)

Post a reply to this message

On 22/05/2012 10:44 AM, scott wrote:
>> Well, I've been playing keyboards since I was 9 years old. I mean, I'm
>> OK, but I'm still not fantastic at it...
>
> I've also been walking for 30 years, but I'd never win an olympic
> walking event.

Unrelated, but I saw a record-breaking moonwalk attempt. The... thing 
that won it was dressed exactly like Michael Jackson, and kept 
repeatedly grabbing itself and singing "we-heeeee!" in a bizarre 
high-pitched voice. And when they awarded it the new world record 
certificate, it wept and said "I did it for Michael".

True fact: Some people are really messed up.

> To become fantastic at something you need to practise
> properly. This means always pushing yourself to the next level as hard
> as you can and not just endlessly repeating what you are already good
> at. This is why you have a teacher or a coach to help you. And also why
> I suck at guitar and keyboard - I spend ages learning one song and then
> just play that endlessly, much to the annoyance of everybody else :-)

I'm not sure it /gets/ much more "next level" than Bach. ;-) But sure, I 
take your point.

Come to think of it, I'm trying to think of a talent I could even 
hypothetically possess which would actually impress anybody. It seems 
people are just hard to impress. "Oh, you can play violin? Sure, so can 
every orchestra I've ever seen. Big deal." "Oh, so you can dance? Big 
deal, Harry Judd learned how to do every dance there is in just 12 
weeks." "You can do maths? Yeah, so can every college teacher in the 
country." It's actually surprisingly difficult to come up with things 
that would impress the average person on the street...

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> Come to think of it, I'm trying to think of a talent I could even
> hypothetically possess which would actually impress anybody. It seems
> people are just hard to impress. "Oh, you can play violin? Sure, so can
> every orchestra I've ever seen. Big deal." "Oh, so you can dance? Big
> deal, Harry Judd learned how to do every dance there is in just 12
> weeks." "You can do maths? Yeah, so can every college teacher in the
> country." It's actually surprisingly difficult to come up with things
> that would impress the average person on the street...

People will be impressed if you state your level of expertise or actual 
achievements.  Not just I play violin, but I play in xxx orchestra or 
have played in xxx concert hall.  Not just I race karts at weekends, but 
I finished 3rd in the under 18 national championship.  Not just I write 
code, but I wrote code for a game/app that sold x million copies.

If you haven't got any achievements like that, then practise some more 
and push yourself to get some! (assuming you want to impress people)

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On 21/05/2012 08:45 PM, Warp wrote:
>    All this talk about violins makes be think of this:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLgBejh5TLA

OK, so I'm never playing that. If nothing else, because it sounds awful...

(Having said that, I do often find the bow bouncing like that when I 
don't actually want it to.)

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On 21/05/2012 08:45 PM, Warp wrote:
> >    All this talk about violins makes be think of this:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLgBejh5TLA

> OK, so I'm never playing that. If nothing else, because it sounds awful...

> (Having said that, I do often find the bow bouncing like that when I 
> don't actually want it to.)

  AFAIK that's the way it's written in the original score by Paganini.
It's too difficult to play for most violinists, which is why they don't.
Only a few people in the world can play it like Paganini did.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 22/05/2012 09:10 PM, Warp wrote:
> Orchid Win7 v1<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> On 21/05/2012 08:45 PM, Warp wrote:
>>>     All this talk about violins makes be think of this:
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLgBejh5TLA
>
>> OK, so I'm never playing that. If nothing else, because it sounds awful...
>
>> (Having said that, I do often find the bow bouncing like that when I
>> don't actually want it to.)
>
>    AFAIK that's the way it's written in the original score by Paganini.
> It's too difficult to play for most violinists, which is why they don't.
> Only a few people in the world can play it like Paganini did.

Yeah, the comments on the video said as much. And that /does/ sound like 
something Paganini would do...

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On Tue, 22 May 2012 16:10:47 -0400, Warp wrote:

>   AFAIK that's the way it's written in the original score by Paganini.
> It's too difficult to play for most violinists, which is why they don't.
> Only a few people in the world can play it like Paganini did.

Yep, ricochet bowing on that scale is incredibly difficult and not many 
people can sustain it like that.

As noted in the comments, it's more typical (but not correct with regards 
to how Paganini wrote it) to do this as a spiccato style instead.

Paganini was a sadist who must've had some horrible wrong done to him by 
a violinist once. ;)

Jim

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Wow, WTF?! o_O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY8h6FnjeuY

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On 03/06/2012 10:08 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Wow, WTF?! o_O

No, I take that back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4mX6C_qlDc

What bothers me is not so much the extreme dexterity, but the fact that 
class doesn't actually sound like that...

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