Apparently Halloween has its roots in Samhain, which was a Gaelic harvest
festival originally practiced mostly in Ireland and Scotland. It's strongly
associated with the celtic culture and its paganistic religious practices.

  Finland has never been a celtic cultural area, not before nor after
Christianity, and there are very little to no celtic historical customs here.
Finland has its own pre-Christian rich mythologic and folkloric history and
customs. Of course modern Finnish culture is mostly filled with Christian
customs, none of which are celtic in origin (AFAIK).

  Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland. We knew
about Halloween only from movies and TV series. It has never been a part
of Finnish culture, and it has always been a holiday of distant lands.

  Something like five years ago somebody, I don't know who exactly, seemingly
wanted to change this and forcibly introduce Halloween to Finland. Suddenly
all kinds of Halloween parafernalia started appearing on shops in October.
I was like "WTF? Are they kidding?"

  Since then every year such parafernalia appears on shops in October. And
apparently at least *some* people are buying it (and not only in the literal
sense of the word). What grinds my gears about this is that this is such a
blatant attempt at cashing in on a foreign custom, for no other reason
whatsoever, and some people are buying it. As if Finland didn't have its
own culture and its own holidays and festivals already.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 10/29/2011 1:45 AM, Warp wrote:
>    Apparently Halloween has its roots in Samhain, which was a Gaelic harvest
> festival originally practiced mostly in Ireland and Scotland. It's strongly
> associated with the celtic culture and its paganistic religious practices.
>
>    Finland has never been a celtic cultural area, not before nor after
> Christianity, and there are very little to no celtic historical customs here.
> Finland has its own pre-Christian rich mythologic and folkloric history and
> customs. Of course modern Finnish culture is mostly filled with Christian
> customs, none of which are celtic in origin (AFAIK).
>
>    Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland. We knew
> about Halloween only from movies and TV series. It has never been a part
> of Finnish culture, and it has always been a holiday of distant lands.
>
>    Something like five years ago somebody, I don't know who exactly, seemingly
> wanted to change this and forcibly introduce Halloween to Finland. Suddenly
> all kinds of Halloween parafernalia started appearing on shops in October.
> I was like "WTF? Are they kidding?"
>
>    Since then every year such parafernalia appears on shops in October. And
> apparently at least *some* people are buying it (and not only in the literal
> sense of the word). What grinds my gears about this is that this is such a
> blatant attempt at cashing in on a foreign custom, for no other reason
> whatsoever, and some people are buying it. As if Finland didn't have its
> own culture and its own holidays and festivals already.
>
What ever it may have *once been*, its no longer based on that at all. 
Its more like Christmas, with candy, instead of presents, and celebrated 
by nearly everyone. Mind, some wackos in the US "celebrate" it by 
blaring religious propaganda over loud speakers against witchcraft (or 
did a few years back in my city), and running "haunted houses" dedicated 
to telling little kids all of the sinful things, including Halloween, 
which will send them to hell, if they do them. And, its had paranoia, 
lies, and "captive audience" BS shoveled over it so much that, in most 
places, its rare to see people going door to door with their kids any 
more, like they used to. But, yeah, its pretty much not a "holy day" for 
anyone any more.

Interestingly, its changed over time. At one time it was only the adults 
that wore costumes, and partied, then it changed to a kids festival, and 
now.. its still mostly kids, but you see some adult stuff happening too 
again. In any case, other than a few kooks, and a few neo-pagans and new 
agers (same thing in this day), who don't follow a damn thing like what 
they "imagine" the past was, or people did, or believed, its just 
something for fun.

All said, Finland isn't going to be the first or last to "complain" 
about the "commercialization", and promotion in new markets, of it. 
There is a long standing assertion that certain "holidays" are nothing 
more than marketing for people selling candy and card, etc. No doubt, if 
Christianity hadn't gotten *started* in Europe, someone would be trying 
to sell Santa Claus suits, Yule logs and greeting cards there now too. 
For someone not "into" the "holiday", what ever much of it exists, it 
seems to me to be a bit like complaining that Star Wars merchandise was 
showing up on the shelves, one day out of the year, as the result of the 
creation of a new "George Lucas day", or something.

Maybe a valid point, but.. a bit silly, and this is coming from someone 
that lives in the most idiot friendly country on the planet, the good 
old USA.

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On 10/29/2011 13:32, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> What ever it may have *once been*, its no longer based on that at all.

Well, except for the people for whom it actually *is* a religious holiday.

> more like Christmas, with candy, instead of presents, and celebrated by
> nearly everyone.

True, but just like Christians still go to church on christmas and easter 
even if nobody else does, actual pagans do actually celebrate halloween. 
Fortunately, they're rather more good natured about everyone dressing up as 
witches. I suspect I'd get fired if I showed up to work near Christmas time 
wearing a plastic crown of thorns and with fake blood spots on my palms.

> Mind, some wackos in the US "celebrate" it by blaring
> religious propaganda over loud speakers against witchcraft (or did a few
> years back in my city), and running "haunted houses" dedicated to telling
> little kids all of the sinful things, including Halloween, which will send
> them to hell, if they do them.

Those are the wackos that are interested enough in religion to recognise 
it's still a religious holiday for various groups.

> yeah, its pretty much not a "holy day" for anyone any more.

You should disabuse yourself of that notion. Just because you don't get 
invited doesn't mean they don't celebrate their religious holidays.

> In any case, other than a few kooks, and a few neo-pagans and new
> agers (same thing in this day), who don't follow a damn thing like what they
> "imagine" the past was, or people did, or believed, its just something for fun.

You should be aware that would be exceedingly rude in front of someone who 
actually is pagan. However, pagans generally don't advertise the fact, so 
you you won't actually know you're calling your boss a kook when you say 
something like this in front of him.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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Am 30.10.2011 20:27, schrieb Darren New:

> I suspect I'd get fired if I showed up to work
> near Christmas time wearing a plastic crown of thorns and with fake
> blood spots on my palms.

I wouldn't blame them, if you're so out of touch with reality that 
you're dressing in an Easter-time costume during Christmas season :-P

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On 10/29/2011 4:45 AM, Warp wrote:
>
>    Something like five years ago somebody, I don't know who exactly, seemingly
> wanted to change this and forcibly introduce Halloween to Finland. Suddenly
> all kinds of Halloween parafernalia started appearing on shops in October.
> I was like "WTF? Are they kidding?"
>
>    Since then every year such parafernalia appears on shops in October. And
> apparently at least *some* people are buying it (and not only in the literal
> sense of the word). What grinds my gears about this is that this is such a
> blatant attempt at cashing in on a foreign custom, for no other reason
> whatsoever, and some people are buying it. As if Finland didn't have its
> own culture and its own holidays and festivals already.
>

Be glad that it starts showing up in October.  Here it starts showing up 
in August.  Then in mid September the Christmas stuff is out already 
replacing the Halloween stuff.

I was in Luxembourg last year at this time and my family there was 
stating that Halloween was something newer to them.  It was only in the 
last few years that people really started to go out trick-or-treating.

It is a holiday that makes money.  It is easy to emphasize an aspect of 
it and get people to part with their money.  Candy & costumes.... and 
lately large expensive decorations.

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On 10/30/2011 18:19, clipka wrote:
> Am 30.10.2011 20:27, schrieb Darren New:
>
>> I suspect I'd get fired if I showed up to work
>> near Christmas time wearing a plastic crown of thorns and with fake
>> blood spots on my palms.
>
> I wouldn't blame them, if you're so out of touch with reality that you're
> dressing in an Easter-time costume during Christmas season :-P

Bazinga. You have a point. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 10/29/2011 1:45, Warp wrote:
>    Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland.

Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and 
Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is, 
except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it was 
the pagan version of the holiday.

If Finland does *not* have a harvest celebration, that'll make it the second 
piece of evidence it would be too cold there for my tastes. ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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Th Dutch situation is a bit more complex (or perhaps not). There are two 
track and treat traditions here (children sing and get candy, no matter 
how badly they sing or what they sing. (some things would not get past 
an American censor)). One where I live on Sept 11th and one in the south 
on Jan 6th. It is unclear what Haloween has to offer additionally. 
Perhaps in areas where neither tradition is present. I haven't seen 
anything in the shops, but that might just be because I wasn't in any 
shop over the last few months,
Carnival is the time to dress up, at least in the south, so no need to 
import a foreign tradition either.
I think it is celebrated by some younger adults as an excuse to have a 
party and dress up. I don't see it become very popular in the near 
future here. If it does, shops will start selling at least 2 or 3 months 
in advance, they do for all other festivities like Eastern Sinterklaas 
(dec 6th) and Christmas (although some people get angry if Christmas 
things are in shops before dec 6th)

On 30-10-2011 20:27, Darren New wrote:
>> yeah, its pretty much not a "holy day" for anyone any more.
>
> You should disabuse yourself of that notion. Just because you don't get
> invited doesn't mean they don't celebrate their religious holidays.

I try to observe towel day and at least pay some attention to talk like 
a pirate day, but they do not seem very popular. Probably because of no 
merchandising push.


-- 
Thanks to Darren New, the over the counter example.

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On 31-10-2011 20:37, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/29/2011 1:45, Warp wrote:
>> Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland.
>
> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it
> was the pagan version of the holiday.
>
> If Finland does *not* have a harvest celebration, that'll make it the
> second piece of evidence it would be too cold there for my tastes. ;-)

we don't have one either and I am pretty sure many countries on the 
equator won't have one too.


-- 
Darren New. he just counts the examples.

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> On 10/29/2011 1:45, Warp wrote:
> >    Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland.

> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and 
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is, 
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it was 
> the pagan version of the holiday.

> If Finland does *not* have a harvest celebration, that'll make it the second 
> piece of evidence it would be too cold there for my tastes. ;-)

  Curiously Finland indeed does not have any end-of-harvest celebration
tradition, even though Finnish agricultural history goes way back to the
medieval ages and beyond.

  The major non-Christian celebration of pagan origins still celebrated
in Finland (which even has an official holiday status) is the midsummer
festival, with its own rich traditions (the most visible one of them being
the burning of a bonfire). There have been, of course, other celebrations
in the past, but most of them have been either lost or assimilated into
Christian festivities, Christmas and Easter being the two most prominent
ones. (AFAIK, like in most of the rest or Europe, there were some
traditions and festivities related to the winter solstice, all of which
got either lost or assimilated into Christmas traditions.)

  The tradition that mostly resembles Halloween in Finland happens in
Easter, especially in some parts of Finland. AFAIK this is a combination
of two distinct traditions, one of them of Christian and the other of
pagan origin (but neither directly related to Easter):

  In some parts of Finland (especially in the East) it was traditional at
Easter time to bless homes by waving catkins at them (seemingly originally
representing palm tree branches), especially by children. The owner of the
home would then give treats to them as a sign of gratitude.

  In other parts of Finland Easter time was, for some reason, associated
with witches (I think this is a more international phenomenon than Finland
only).

  At some point these two traditions got merged, so we have children dressing
as witches (in some parts boys would dress as their cats) and going from
home to home blessing them with the catkins, the homeowners giving them
treats. It is customary for the children to ask permission first. This
largely resembles the Halloween tradition (but has completely different
origins).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 31/10/2011 7:37 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it
> was the pagan version of the holiday.

I beg to differ.
Hallowe'en is a Christian festival, the Eve of All Hallows. All Saints' 
Day is a day when the dead are remembered. In Scotland and Ireland it 
was thought that the dead could walk on the evening before that day.
Samhain was a harvest festival. The ghosts and goolies did not appear 
until after Christianity had been established for several centuries.

As for poor Finland being infected by the American version of 
Hallowe’en, I sympathise. I can’t stand the crass commercialisation of 
what should IMO be small celebrations. What next, cakes and cards for a 
tooth extraction?
When I was young, in Scotland, Hallowe'en was for children. When we went 
guising we had to perform a trick, a song or a poem, before we got a 
treat. Lots of thought went in to our disguises.


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 10/31/2011 12:37 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/29/2011 1:45, Warp wrote:
>> Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland.
>
> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it
> was the pagan version of the holiday.
>
Yeah, basically what they did, more or less. Would be, actually, more 
accurate to say that, all over Europe, and I doubt Finland was any 
different, if there was a harvest festival, and it was pagan, they 
*claimed* it was Satanic, involved witchcraft, and therefor, as per the 
re-write done in the KJV, one shouldn't suffer such people to live. The 
only reason I can see Finland not having such a day is if its a) at a 
different time, or b) the Christians where actually successful at ending 
them. Mostly, they almost managed that everyplace, but, for various 
reasons, new superstitions replaced the old ones, and instead of 
celebrating "harvest" they started dressing up to scare off, or confuse, 
"demons". One thing Christianity was almost as good at as the Romans was 
mangling other people's festivals, distorting their meaning, then 
co-opting them for their own purposes. But, in the end, *any* harvest 
festival pretty much "is" Halloween, we just ended up with the version 
that included costumes and candy.

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On 10/31/2011 1:46 PM, Warp wrote:
>    The tradition that mostly resembles Halloween in Finland happens in
> Easter, especially in some parts of Finland. AFAIK this is a combination
> of two distinct traditions, one of them of Christian and the other of
> pagan origin (but neither directly related to Easter):
>
Technically, there is no "Christian" version of it, unless you include 
some lame, misplaced (chronologically it can't fit where it got put, if 
you follow the Bible's supposed sequence of events), story about Jesus 
and some church services attached. Nothing done on the date, other than 
the churchy stuff, at least any place I have heard of, isn't 100% pagan. 
Its one of the cases where they stole the thing, lock, stock, and 
barrel, but their followers refused to give up all the stuff that went 
with it.

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> Technically, there is no "Christian" version of it, unless you include 
> some lame, misplaced (chronologically it can't fit where it got put, if 
> you follow the Bible's supposed sequence of events), story about Jesus 
> and some church services attached. Nothing done on the date, other than 
> the churchy stuff, at least any place I have heard of, isn't 100% pagan. 
> Its one of the cases where they stole the thing, lock, stock, and 
> barrel, but their followers refused to give up all the stuff that went 
> with it.

  When I say "Christian" I'm not exclusively talking about biblical
tradition. I also include everything that has come after it in the
name of Christianity.

  Most Christian holidays are wild mixups of biblical, ecclesiastical and
pagan traditions. Curiously, the first one of those sources actually plays
by far the least significant role in most of the cases. (For instance, the
only modern Christian holiday that is actually mentioned and defined in the
Bible is the passover, from which Easter is derived. And even that is quite
completely different in the Bible than it is today.)

  Blessing houses by waving catkins at them isn't found in the Bible, of
course. However, I still consider to be of Christian origin because it was,
AFAIK, invented in the name of Christianity, rather than having its roots
in a pagan tradition. (Although it certainly *sounds* like it could have been
a pagan tradition that simply got relabelled as Christian tradition, but
I have not found any reference to this.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>   In other parts of Finland Easter time was, for some reason, associated
> with witches (I think this is a more international phenomenon than Finland
> only).

>   At some point these two traditions got merged, so we have children dressing
> as witches (in some parts boys would dress as their cats) and going from
> home to home blessing them with the catkins, the homeowners giving them
> treats.

  Btw, in this case the witches refer to the traditional (both real and
mythological) witches of Lapland (northern Finland), not the pointy-hat
wearing broom-riding witches (although some dress as those as well). In
other words, like this:

http://www.seutulansuuralue.net/upload/virpojat.jpg

  Notice the references to traditional rural and lapponian gear, such as
the lapponian hat, headscarf and the metallic milk jug (and overall dressing
like a rural old woman).

  In old Finnish mythology Lapland witches had all kinds of supernatural
powers, such as being able to fly and turn invisible. There were many
traditions related to warding them off (such as throwing a knife to the
wind, believed to be a witch trying to steal the harvest).

  There were also real people considered to be witches. They served a
role akin to shamans and wise women, who were often herbalists and who
were believed to be able to inflict curses and hexes, as well as remove
them. The traditional witch costume (resembling a rural old woman) is
probably derived from these.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>   Btw, in this case the witches refer to the traditional (both real and
> mythological) witches of Lapland (northern Finland), not the pointy-hat
> wearing broom-riding witches (although some dress as those as well).

  Apparently nobody is interested in Finnish culture. Bummer. And I poured
my soul into writing this.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 01/11/2011 7:36 PM, Warp wrote:
> Warp<war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  wrote:
>>    Btw, in this case the witches refer to the traditional (both real and
>> mythological) witches of Lapland (northern Finland), not the pointy-hat
>> wearing broom-riding witches (although some dress as those as well).
>
>    Apparently nobody is interested in Finnish culture. Bummer. And I poured
> my soul into writing this.
>

Not so. I thought that the photographs were very interesting, they 
looked like Spey Wives, to me. Very young Spey Wives, that is. ;-)
Your description reminds me of a cross between Hallowe'en and Hogmanay.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 11/1/2011 12:36 PM, Warp wrote:
>    Apparently nobody is interested in Finnish culture. Bummer. And I poured
> my soul into writing this.

I thought it was really interesting -- I just didn't have anything to add.

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Kevin Wampler <wam### [at] uwashingtonedu> wrote:
> On 11/1/2011 12:36 PM, Warp wrote:
> >    Apparently nobody is interested in Finnish culture. Bummer. And I poured
> > my soul into writing this.

> I thought it was really interesting -- I just didn't have anything to add.

  I was expecting a 100-post thread about the subtleties of Finnish
mythology and an analysis of how it connects to other mythologies and
cultures...

  Just joking, of course. Was expecting *some* comments, though. :)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 10/31/2011 13:05, andrel wrote:
> I try to observe towel day and at least pay some attention to talk like a
> pirate day,

I must say I was very confused on halloween when one of our programs started 
sending out a bunch of confirmation reports like "Arrr, matey, one o' your 
programs are be havin' the errors!"

Turns out the reporting program started re-sending reports about bugs 
submitted on talk-like-a-pirate day, and the bug tracker automatically 
translates bugs into pirate talk on talk like a pirate day.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 10/31/2011 13:21, andrel wrote:
> we don't have one either and I am pretty sure many countries on the equator
> won't have one too.

Well, that's a fair point, yes. But given that Warp said in Finland anything 
above freezing is short-sleeve weather, I rather think if Finland lacks a 
harvest festival, it's not because it's always a warm and prosperous growing 
season. ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 10/31/2011 13:46, Warp wrote:
>    In other parts of Finland Easter time was, for some reason, associated
> with witches (I think this is a more international phenomenon than Finland
> only).

The earliest it was reasonable to dance naked in the forest? :-)

>    At some point these two traditions got merged,

Cool traditions. Somehow I'd always thought that Europe had more generally 
homogenous cultures in things like that, but I guess that's just the Ugly 
American(tm) in me. :)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 11/1/2011 12:36, Warp wrote:
>    Apparently nobody is interested in Finnish culture. Bummer. And I poured
> my soul into writing this.

I'm finding it fascinating, but you apparently posted it after I had lunch 
and before I got home from work. :-) *You* might have slept, but many of us 
are on the other side o the world. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 11/1/2011 1:33, Warp wrote:
>    Btw, in this case the witches refer to the traditional (both real and
> mythological) witches of Lapland (northern Finland),

Sounds like Discworld witches. :-)

? not the pointy-hat
> wearing broom-riding witches (although some dress as those as well).

I wonder if the pointy hat black cloak witch was entirely an invention of 
the Wizard of Oz movie. I think I remember old woodcuts with broom-riding 
women, but they were always pagan-naked.


-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 10/31/2011 23:41, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> in the end, *any* harvest festival pretty much "is" Halloween, we just ended
> up with the version that included costumes and candy.

Actually, we got American Thanksgiving, too. So double-plus there.



-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 11/1/2011 2:32 PM, Warp wrote:
>
>    Just joking, of course. Was expecting *some* comments, though. :)
>

I often find that posts on the internet which are interesting and well 
thought out get very few replies -- particularly if they're outside of 
everyone's area of expertise.  I suppose it's because none of the 
potential respondents has anything relevant and of substance to add, and 
comments like "wow, that's neat!" you'd typically hear in normal 
conversation don't flow as well in a non-chat-oriented medium.  At least 
that's the case with me and this post, and I assume with others as well. 
  I agree it can be discouraging though since from the poster's end 
there's no way to differentiate between "interested but don't have 
anything to add" and "not interested".

In order to get replies, it seems best to post something incorrect in an 
area where plenty of people have enough knowledge to point out your mistake.

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On 11/1/2011 7:04 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 11/1/2011 1:33, Warp wrote:
>> Btw, in this case the witches refer to the traditional (both real and
>> mythological) witches of Lapland (northern Finland),
>
> Sounds like Discworld witches. :-)
>
> ? not the pointy-hat
>> wearing broom-riding witches (although some dress as those as well).
>
> I wonder if the pointy hat black cloak witch was entirely an invention
> of the Wizard of Oz movie. I think I remember old woodcuts with
> broom-riding women, but they were always pagan-naked.
>
>
Of course they where. Porn might have been frowned on, but porn as a 
social statement about the "evils of witches", would be OK. lol

Post a reply to this message

Kevin Wampler <wam### [at] uwashingtonedu> wrote:
> In order to get replies, it seems best to post something incorrect in an 
> area where plenty of people have enough knowledge to point out your mistake.

  But that would derail the conversation.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> On 10/31/2011 23:41, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > in the end, *any* harvest festival pretty much "is" Halloween, we just ended
> > up with the version that included costumes and candy.

> Actually, we got American Thanksgiving, too. So double-plus there.

  What do you need two harvest festivals for?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> On 10/31/2011 13:46, Warp wrote:
> >    In other parts of Finland Easter time was, for some reason, associated
> > with witches (I think this is a more international phenomenon than Finland
> > only).

> The earliest it was reasonable to dance naked in the forest? :-)

  The typical image of a Lapland witch was a rural very old wrinkled woman.
I don't think "dancing naked" was part of the imago... :P

  To be honest, I have no idea at what age the real-life "witches" started
their "profession" back when they were still active. I suppose they had
some kind of apprentices, if not even daughters that would succeed them.

  I also don't know when the practice was completely eradicated, but I think
they prevailed up until surprisingly recently. AFAIK even in 1950's there
were still some such women up there far in the north.

> >    At some point these two traditions got merged,

> Cool traditions. Somehow I'd always thought that Europe had more generally 
> homogenous cultures in things like that, but I guess that's just the Ugly 
> American(tm) in me. :)

  Europe is not the United States. The cultures are extremely varied, both
in the north-nouth axis and the east-west axis.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 11/1/2011 11:27 PM, Warp wrote:
> Kevin Wampler<wam### [at] uwashingtonedu>  wrote:
>> In order to get replies, it seems best to post something incorrect in an
>> area where plenty of people have enough knowledge to point out your mistake.
>
>    But that would derail the conversation.

Heh, indeed it often seems to.  I most assuredly wasn't making a 
recommendation -- I much prefer well researched and thought-out posts 
(within reason, this isn't Wikipedia so more conversational stuff is 
nice too).  I was just making an observation.

Thanks again for the Finnish culture posts, I quite liked them!

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Kevin Wampler <wam### [at] uwashingtonedu> wrote:
> Thanks again for the Finnish culture posts, I quite liked them!

  Now in return you'll have to tell me something I didn't know about the
culture of your country. :)

  (From your sender address I'm assuming that would be the US. That
probably makes the task a bit difficult, given how much Americans have
spread knowledge of your culture through Hollywood and TV... :) But I'm
sure there's something I didn't know already.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 2-11-2011 2:55, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/31/2011 13:21, andrel wrote:
>> we don't have one either and I am pretty sure many countries on the
>> equator
>> won't have one too.
>
> Well, that's a fair point, yes. But given that Warp said in Finland
> anything above freezing is short-sleeve weather, I rather think if
> Finland lacks a harvest festival, it's not because it's always a warm
> and prosperous growing season. ;-)
>

I think we had one (and still have remnants in some forms, e.g. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloemencorso ) and most probably Finland 
did also, it is just that the tradition died out. Using my thumb as a 
reliable source of hypotheses, it might have been that the focus shifted 
to the cities and it became outdated and considered backwards.

-- 
Darren, please put your examples on the counter

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and 
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is, 
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it was 
> the pagan version of the holiday.

  Btw, now that you mention it and I looked it up, All Saints Day actually
*is* an official holiday in Finland. De jure, at least. It's in the saturday
between october 31 and november 6.

  However, it's a purely Christian holiday with its origin in Catholicism,
rather than being a traditional harvest festival.

  In practice nobody celebrates this. Not that I know of. (Perhaps some
churches might.) IIRC you don't even get a day off work (iow. it's not
*that* official).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 11/2/2011 7:50 AM, Warp wrote:
>    Now in return you'll have to tell me something I didn't know about the
> culture of your country. :)
>
>    (From your sender address I'm assuming that would be the US. That
> probably makes the task a bit difficult, given how much Americans have
> spread knowledge of your culture through Hollywood and TV... :) But I'm
> sure there's something I didn't know already.)

As you expected, I'm having quite a bit of trouble thinking of anything. 
  Not only because you already seem to know a fair bit about America, 
but because much of American culture (particularly on the west coast 
where I live) is so young.  It's seems odd to talk about something 
that's only been going on for 10 years as "culture".  Of course there 
are very old Native American cultural traditions, but they're not really 
something I caa speak to with authority.  To further complicate matters, 
US culture varies a great deal depending on where in the US you are.

I guess the best thing I can think of is that in many areas in America 
seem to delight in other cultures.  I'd estimate that 1/2 to 2/3 of the 
restaurants within a few miles of where I live are based on food from 
somewhere else (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, Russian, 
Mexican, Italian, German, Ecuadorian, Malay, Ethiopian, etc.).  In the 
summer I'll also expect to see several festivals or parades celebrating 
other countries/cultures.  In some semi-paradoxical sense, I tend to one 
of the most "American" cultural traits to be the way in which other 
cultures are brought together and combined.  I assume you were already 
aware of this though, but it's the main thing that came to mind.

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On 11/1/2011 14:32, Warp wrote:
>    Just joking, of course. Was expecting *some* comments, though. :)

Now you know how Andrew feels after writing a five page essay on Haskell? :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 11/1/2011 23:32, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> On 10/31/2011 23:41, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>> in the end, *any* harvest festival pretty much "is" Halloween, we just ended
>>> up with the version that included costumes and candy.
>
>> Actually, we got American Thanksgiving, too. So double-plus there.
>
>    What do you need two harvest festivals for?

One came with the europeans, one is (essentially) left over from the native 
americans.

The one called "Thanksgiving" is traditionally represented by a bunch of 
pilgrims and a bunch of indians (i.e., native americans) sitting down and 
eating native american food like turkeys and pumpkins, and smoking tobacco. 
The folklore is that it was the immigrant settlers making peace with the 
natives, being helped through the bad winter by the more worldly native 
americans because they hadn't harvested enough on their own.

Halloween might have come from the spanish immigrants or something? 
day-of-the-dead sort of thing, or as you say from the irish immigrants many 
years later.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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Kevin Wampler <wam### [at] uwashingtonedu> wrote:
> I assume you were already 
> aware of this though, but it's the main thing that came to mind.

  One thing I have noticed is that Americans seem to be good at inventing
unhealthy food... For example I saw this video where they were trying
different foods at a State Fair, and they had things like corn dogs
covered in liquid chocolate. :P

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 11/3/2011 12:00 AM, Warp wrote:
>    One thing I have noticed is that Americans seem to be good at inventing
> unhealthy food... For example I saw this video where they were trying
> different foods at a State Fair, and they had things like corn dogs
> covered in liquid chocolate. :P

It sort of depends on where you are.  Where I live the food is actually 
pretty healthy.  For instance there's quite a bit of vegetarian food and 
the most common meat is probably fish.  Southern cooking (by which I 
mean the south-east US) is quite another story though.  Do a youtube 
search for "Paula Deen" to see what I mean.  State fairs are also sort 
of known as a place where you can expect to get the unhealthiest food 
imaginable, particularly deep fried things and food-on-a-stick.  For 
instance, I've heard of fried Coca-Cola, fried ice cream, fried 
Twinkies, and probably the worst, fried butter on a stick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUJjW3I65e4

Really though, this sort of food in pretty rare and you'll only find it 
at a few state fairs.

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On 03/11/2011 07:00 AM, Warp wrote:

>    One thing I have noticed is that Americans seem to be good at inventing
> unhealthy food...

Chocolate-coated lard, anyone? ;-)

I remember our GM telling us they went out to eat and were given chips 
that were first fried in lard, and then second-fried in duck-fat for 
"extra flavour"...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Le 03/11/2011 16:21, Orchid XP v8 a écrit :
> I remember our GM telling us they went out to eat and were given chips
> that were first fried in lard, and then second-fried in duck-fat for
> "extra flavour"...

Chips in pork's fat... then duck's fat.
What happened to the only reasonnable beef's fat ?

(well, if you want extra flavor, there is of course the option of
horse's fat, now that's one with a real strong flavor & taste)

IMHO, pork's fat is good for low temperature, long cooking.
Duck's fat hold high temperature quite good, but does not endure it too
long.

Ducks & covers for the vegetable oils coming soon to make bad chips...

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same here in Brazil.  Cultural goodies exports... called here "dia das 
bruxas", "day of the witches"

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On 11/2/2011 11:09 AM, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
>> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
>> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it was
>> the pagan version of the holiday.
>
>    Btw, now that you mention it and I looked it up, All Saints Day actually
> *is* an official holiday in Finland. De jure, at least. It's in the saturday
> between october 31 and november 6.
>
>    However, it's a purely Christian holiday with its origin in Catholicism,
> rather than being a traditional harvest festival.
>
>    In practice nobody celebrates this. Not that I know of. (Perhaps some
> churches might.) IIRC you don't even get a day off work (iow. it's not
> *that* official).
>
Don't get off work for Halloween here either. Not sure of government 
workers though, those lazy asses seem to get everything off, which makes 
using public transport, in places where its government run, pretty damn 
useless on nearly every "holiday". I am sometimes surprised their isn't 
a government, "We just don't feel like working today.", holiday. lol

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On 11/3/2011 12:22, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> "We just don't feel like working today.", holiday. lol

You mean like Labor Day, where we celebrate everyone who works hard by 
taking the day off?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 11/3/2011 10:37 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 11/3/2011 12:22, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> "We just don't feel like working today.", holiday. lol
>
> You mean like Labor Day, where we celebrate everyone who works hard by
> taking the day off?
>
Umm. No, actually Labor Day was a day set aside to remember how "Labor 
Unions" helped save the US from child labor, 12+ hour work days, unsafe 
work conditions, and helped us recover from the "last" depression. It 
seems somehow fitting that the idiots now want us to think its for 
"working people and corporations", and that, "labor unions are 
destroying the nation". But, you can be forgiven, I suppose, for 
drinking the coolaid, since it is "herbal" coolaid, and being "natural", 
no one bothered to verify the ingredients for safety, or content. lol

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On 11/4/2011 21:11, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> you can be forgiven, I suppose, for drinking the coolaid,

Uh, it's a pretty classic joke, dude.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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