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Invisible <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> To be fair, while the US is legendary for stupidity, there are plenty of
> stupid people in other countries too. Visit any shop while the computers
> are down and watch the poor checkout girl struggle to compute £2.99 +
> £4.85. Watch, and sigh.
Can you blame them?
When was the last time you wrote something on paper with a pen, other
than your name / other personal information / signature?
--
- Warp
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On 04/10/2011 08:21 PM, Warp wrote:
> Invisible<voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> To be fair, while the US is legendary for stupidity, there are plenty of
>> stupid people in other countries too. Visit any shop while the computers
>> are down and watch the poor checkout girl struggle to compute £2.99 +
>> £4.85. Watch, and sigh.
>
> Can you blame them?
Um, YES?
3 + 5 = 8. The result is approximately £8. How hard is that?
(Also... what's up with the character encoding?)
> When was the last time you wrote something on paper with a pen, other
> than your name / other personal information / signature?
Lamentably, about 2 hours ago...
(I'm required to write often quite verbose items of data for
documentation purposes on a regular basis.)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 4 Oct 2011 15:39:52
Message: <4e8b6108@news.povray.org>
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On 04/10/2011 8:21 PM, Warp wrote:
> Invisible<voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> To be fair, while the US is legendary for stupidity, there are plenty of
>> stupid people in other countries too. Visit any shop while the computers
>> are down and watch the poor checkout girl struggle to compute £2.99 +
>> £4.85. Watch, and sigh.
>
> Can you blame them?
>
Yes, the above sum is mental arithmetic. It does not need pencil and paper.
> When was the last time you wrote something on paper with a pen, other
> than your name / other personal information / signature?
>
For me it was a shopping list a couple of hours ago. Also I often make
drawings at work to either clear my mind or to explain something.
--
Regards
Stephen
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 4 Oct 2011 15:56:58
Message: <4e8b650a$1@news.povray.org>
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On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:21:46 -0400, Warp wrote:
> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> To be fair, while the US is legendary for stupidity, there are plenty
>> of stupid people in other countries too. Visit any shop while the
>> computers are down and watch the poor checkout girl struggle to compute
>> £2.99 + £4.85. Watch, and sigh.
>
> Can you blame them?
>
> When was the last time you wrote something on paper with a pen, other
> than your name / other personal information / signature?
Well, I can't speak for Andy, but I do nearly every day. I use a
dayplanner and when I have many tasks to do, I find it an easier way to
track stuff - and I don't have to worry about the battery dying on me.
Jim
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> > When was the last time you wrote something on paper with a pen, other
> > than your name / other personal information / signature?
> Lamentably, about 2 hours ago...
I don't remember when was the last time I wrote something on paper.
--
- Warp
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On 04/10/2011 09:25 PM, Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8<voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> When was the last time you wrote something on paper with a pen, other
>>> than your name / other personal information / signature?
>
>> Lamentably, about 2 hours ago...
>
> I don't remember when was the last time I wrote something on paper.
In addition: I quite often write formulas on paper. It's much quicker to
do algebra on paper than try to fight some computer software to make it
produce mathematical notation.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 10/4/2011 12:21, Warp wrote:
> When was the last time you wrote something on paper with a pen, other
> than your name / other personal information / signature?
I take pen and paper notes all the time, myself.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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On 04/10/2011 08:39 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 04/10/2011 8:21 PM, Warp wrote:
>> Invisible<voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> To be fair, while the US is legendary for stupidity, there are plenty of
>>> stupid people in other countries too. Visit any shop while the computers
>>> are down and watch the poor checkout girl struggle to compute £2.99 +
>>> £4.85. Watch, and sigh.
>>
>> Can you blame them?
>>
>
> Yes, the above sum is mental arithmetic. It does not need pencil and paper.
To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to write
it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil sharpeners which
are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
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On 05/10/2011 8:55 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>> Can you blame them?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, the above sum is mental arithmetic. It does not need pencil and
>> paper.
>
> To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to write
> it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil sharpeners which
> are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is to
blame.
--
Regards
Stephen
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>> To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to write
>> it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil sharpeners which
>> are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
>
> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is to
> blame.
Um... part of the job of the education system is to teach people who to
do arithmetic. If people can't do arithmetic, that's *totally* within
the failure of the system!
Although arguably our culture deserves part of the blame. It seems we
live in an age where possessing intelligence or skill is seen as
pointless and stupid. Only losers are good at maths, right? *Real*
people win stuff on game shows, and that's the thing to aspire to...
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 5 Oct 2011 10:58:23
Message: <4e8c708f$1@news.povray.org>
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 11:05:44 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 05/10/2011 8:55 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>>> Can you blame them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yes, the above sum is mental arithmetic. It does not need pencil and
>>> paper.
>>
>> To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to
>> write it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil sharpeners
>> which are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
>
> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is to
> blame.
Technology. Why should one have to figure out how to do sums when
everyone has a phone with a calculator built into it?
Jim
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>>> To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to
>>> write it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil sharpeners
>>> which are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
>>
>> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is to
>> blame.
>
> Technology. Why should one have to figure out how to do sums when
> everyone has a phone with a calculator built into it?
Heh. My phone has a calculator, but it'll take you five minutes to
figure out which submenu it's burried under. And then to remember which
key you have to hold for 3 seconds to make the various mathematical
operators appear...
(Then again, it'll take you 20 seconds just to cancel out of the random
submenu that the phone has opened in your pocket for no defined reason.)
It still amuses me when I see people in the lab sitting in front of a PC
with a 3 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor, and using a desktop calculator
to work out what numbers to key into the computer. ;-)
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 5 Oct 2011 11:50:34
Message: <4e8c7cca$1@news.povray.org>
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:03:07 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>>> To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to
>>>> write it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil sharpeners
>>>> which are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
>>>
>>> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is
>>> to blame.
>>
>> Technology. Why should one have to figure out how to do sums when
>> everyone has a phone with a calculator built into it?
>
> Heh. My phone has a calculator, but it'll take you five minutes to
> figure out which submenu it's burried under. And then to remember which
> key you have to hold for 3 seconds to make the various mathematical
> operators appear...
>
> (Then again, it'll take you 20 seconds just to cancel out of the random
> submenu that the phone has opened in your pocket for no defined reason.)
Well, that's why I put a shortcut on the screen for it. :)
> It still amuses me when I see people in the lab sitting in front of a PC
> with a 3 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor, and using a desktop calculator
> to work out what numbers to key into the computer. ;-)
It's all about familiarity. They probably are much faster on a
calculator keypad. :)
Jim
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On 5-10-2011 17:50, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:03:07 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>
>>>>> To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to
>>>>> write it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil sharpeners
>>>>> which are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
>>>>
>>>> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is
>>>> to blame.
>>>
>>> Technology. Why should one have to figure out how to do sums when
>>> everyone has a phone with a calculator built into it?
>>
>> Heh. My phone has a calculator, but it'll take you five minutes to
>> figure out which submenu it's burried under. And then to remember which
>> key you have to hold for 3 seconds to make the various mathematical
>> operators appear...
>>
>> (Then again, it'll take you 20 seconds just to cancel out of the random
>> submenu that the phone has opened in your pocket for no defined reason.)
>
> Well, that's why I put a shortcut on the screen for it. :)
>
>> It still amuses me when I see people in the lab sitting in front of a PC
>> with a 3 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor, and using a desktop calculator
>> to work out what numbers to key into the computer. ;-)
>
> It's all about familiarity. They probably are much faster on a
> calculator keypad. :)
Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad? That most
calculators use this and that you can copy paste answers.
Indeed they didn't.
--
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per
citizen per day.
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>> It still amuses me when I see people in the lab sitting in front of a PC
>> with a 3 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor, and using a desktop calculator
>> to work out what numbers to key into the computer. ;-)
>
> It's all about familiarity. They probably are much faster on a
> calculator keypad. :)
Well, at least you don't have to worry about it lagging out because the
scheduled antivirus scan just kicked in... Even so, there's something
deeply broken about purchasing a powerful computational device and then
purchasing another one to do the actual math for you.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 5 Oct 2011 14:16:44
Message: <4e8c9f0c$1@news.povray.org>
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:38:30 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> It still amuses me when I see people in the lab sitting in front of a
>>> PC with a 3 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor, and using a desktop
>>> calculator to work out what numbers to key into the computer. ;-)
>>
>> It's all about familiarity. They probably are much faster on a
>> calculator keypad. :)
>
> Well, at least you don't have to worry about it lagging out because the
> scheduled antivirus scan just kicked in... Even so, there's something
> deeply broken about purchasing a powerful computational device and then
> purchasing another one to do the actual math for you.
Sometimes a simpler tool is a better tool. :)
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 5 Oct 2011 14:18:18
Message: <4e8c9f6a$1@news.povray.org>
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:42:47 +0200, andrel wrote:
> On 5-10-2011 17:50, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:03:07 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>
>>>>>> To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to
>>>>>> write it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil
>>>>>> sharpeners which are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
>>>>>
>>>>> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is
>>>>> to blame.
>>>>
>>>> Technology. Why should one have to figure out how to do sums when
>>>> everyone has a phone with a calculator built into it?
>>>
>>> Heh. My phone has a calculator, but it'll take you five minutes to
>>> figure out which submenu it's burried under. And then to remember
>>> which key you have to hold for 3 seconds to make the various
>>> mathematical operators appear...
>>>
>>> (Then again, it'll take you 20 seconds just to cancel out of the
>>> random submenu that the phone has opened in your pocket for no defined
>>> reason.)
>>
>> Well, that's why I put a shortcut on the screen for it. :)
>>
>>> It still amuses me when I see people in the lab sitting in front of a
>>> PC with a 3 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor, and using a desktop
>>> calculator to work out what numbers to key into the computer. ;-)
>>
>> It's all about familiarity. They probably are much faster on a
>> calculator keypad. :)
>
> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
Not on my laptop. And compared to a calculator, the numeric keypad's
numbers are reversed (1-3 at the bottom rather than at the top).
> That most
> calculators use this and that you can copy paste answers. Indeed they
> didn't.
Sure, there are benefits. I'd have to be stupid not to know *that*.
Jim
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On 9/30/2011 11:59 AM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
> What worries me is the possibility of a theory not being taken seriously
> because nobody likes it, rather than because the theory doesn't work...
>
That has happened before, and it will happen again.
--
~Mike
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On 10/5/2011 9:42, andrel wrote:
> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
Back when spreadsheets were the killer app, people were annoyed that the
number keys and the arrow keys were the same keys. So now we have two sets
of number keys *and* two sets of arrow keys.
Me, I'm about to buy a keyboard with no numpad, and with the insert/home/etc
and the arrow keys in ... odd positions, just so it's small enough I don't
have to put my mouse on a different desk just to fit all they keys I never use.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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>> What worries me is the possibility of a theory not being taken seriously
>> because nobody likes it, rather than because the theory doesn't work...
>
> That has happened before, and it will happen again.
Any concrete examples?
Every example I know of where a theory wasn't believed because it seemed
too silly, eventually facts won out.
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From: Invisible
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 04:02:03
Message: <4e8d607b@news.povray.org>
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>> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
>
> Not on my laptop.
My new laptop does though. ;-)
> And compared to a calculator, the numeric keypad's
> numbers are reversed (1-3 at the bottom rather than at the top).
From what I've seen, both layouts are equally common.
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On 06/10/2011 02:10 AM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/5/2011 9:42, andrel wrote:
>> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
>
> Back when spreadsheets were the killer app, people were annoyed that the
> number keys and the arrow keys were the same keys. So now we have two
> sets of number keys *and* two sets of arrow keys.
I'm still trying to figure out how to make it permanently impossible to
ever turn numlock off under any circumstances. Every single ****ing time
I use Linux, I seem to have to turn numlock back on every 20 seconds. I
DO NOT EVER WANT IT TO TURN OFF!!! >_<
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From: Invisible
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 04:06:27
Message: <4e8d6183@news.povray.org>
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>> Well, at least you don't have to worry about it lagging out because the
>> scheduled antivirus scan just kicked in... Even so, there's something
>> deeply broken about purchasing a powerful computational device and then
>> purchasing another one to do the actual math for you.
>
> Sometimes a simpler tool is a better tool. :)
Dude, that's like saying that sometimes a 1/4 lb planishing hammer is
better than a 6 lb sledgehammer!
Oh, wait...
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On 10/6/2011 1:02, Invisible wrote:
> From what I've seen, both layouts are equally common.
AT&T actually studied about 20 or 25 different keyboard layouts, including
2x5, circular, all four rectangles, etc, to see how fast people could dial
each one. You got the one that won out.
I don't know if similar studies were ever done for calculators, but I'd
expect not. I suspect it's more that they had the low numbers lower on the
keyboard for consistency with older mechanical calculators where the low
numbers had to be physically farther from the display.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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From: Alain
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 13:18:57
Message: <4e8de301@news.povray.org>
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Le 2011/10/05 14:18, Jim Henderson a écrit :
> On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:42:47 +0200, andrel wrote:
>
>> On 5-10-2011 17:50, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:03:07 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> To be fair, if there were a few more items, you'd probably need to
>>>>>>> write it down just to keep track of it all. But two pencil
>>>>>>> sharpeners which are £1.95 each shouldn't trouble anybody...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is
>>>>>> to blame.
>>>>>
>>>>> Technology. Why should one have to figure out how to do sums when
>>>>> everyone has a phone with a calculator built into it?
>>>>
>>>> Heh. My phone has a calculator, but it'll take you five minutes to
>>>> figure out which submenu it's burried under. And then to remember
>>>> which key you have to hold for 3 seconds to make the various
>>>> mathematical operators appear...
>>>>
>>>> (Then again, it'll take you 20 seconds just to cancel out of the
>>>> random submenu that the phone has opened in your pocket for no defined
>>>> reason.)
>>>
>>> Well, that's why I put a shortcut on the screen for it. :)
>>>
>>>> It still amuses me when I see people in the lab sitting in front of a
>>>> PC with a 3 GHz dual-core 64-bit processor, and using a desktop
>>>> calculator to work out what numbers to key into the computer. ;-)
>>>
>>> It's all about familiarity. They probably are much faster on a
>>> calculator keypad. :)
>>
>> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
>
> Not on my laptop. And compared to a calculator, the numeric keypad's
> numbers are reversed (1-3 at the bottom rather than at the top).
>
>> That most
>> calculators use this and that you can copy paste answers. Indeed they
>> didn't.
>
> Sure, there are benefits. I'd have to be stupid not to know *that*.
>
> Jim
I've never ever seen any calculator with the 1 2 3 keys at the top.
Phones, yes, always, calculators, never.
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 13:28:04
Message: <4e8de524$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:03:53 +0100, Invisible wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 02:10 AM, Darren New wrote:
>> On 10/5/2011 9:42, andrel wrote:
>>> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
>>
>> Back when spreadsheets were the killer app, people were annoyed that
>> the number keys and the arrow keys were the same keys. So now we have
>> two sets of number keys *and* two sets of arrow keys.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out how to make it permanently impossible to
> ever turn numlock off under any circumstances. Every single ****ing time
> I use Linux, I seem to have to turn numlock back on every 20 seconds. I
> DO NOT EVER WANT IT TO TURN OFF!!! >_<
It never changes state here for me automatically.
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 13:29:44
Message: <4e8de588$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:02:33 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
>>
>> Not on my laptop.
>
> My new laptop does though. ;-)
I've seen a few laptops that have them, but the vast majority (especially
if you have a 'standard' (as opposed to 'wide') screen.
>> And compared to a calculator, the numeric keypad's numbers are reversed
>> (1-3 at the bottom rather than at the top).
>
> From what I've seen, both layouts are equally common.
Not on a computer - at least not that I've ever seen. On a calculator,
that may be true - I've only got 2 or 3 actual calculators here.
But I did learn to do 10-key on a cash register, and the keys there (and
on touch-tone phones and most calculators) are the other way round.
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 13:30:11
Message: <4e8de5a3$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:06:40 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>> Well, at least you don't have to worry about it lagging out because
>>> the scheduled antivirus scan just kicked in... Even so, there's
>>> something deeply broken about purchasing a powerful computational
>>> device and then purchasing another one to do the actual math for you.
>>
>> Sometimes a simpler tool is a better tool. :)
>
> Dude, that's like saying that sometimes a 1/4 lb planishing hammer is
> better than a 6 lb sledgehammer!
>
> Oh, wait...
Bingo! ;)
Jim
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>>>> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
>>>
>>> Not on my laptop.
>>
>> My new laptop does though. ;-)
>
> I've seen a few laptops that have them, but the vast majority (especially
> if you have a 'standard' (as opposed to 'wide') screen.
Uh... I /think/ I understand what you wrote...
>> From what I've seen, both layouts are equally common.
>
> Not on a computer - at least not that I've ever seen. On a calculator,
> that may be true - I've only got 2 or 3 actual calculators here.
Yeah, the whole keyboard layout on an IBM PC is pretty much standard. I
meant more generally on devices with 10-digit input. Telephones,
calculators, combination locks, etc.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> I'm still trying to figure out how to make it permanently impossible to
>> ever turn numlock off under any circumstances. Every single ****ing time
>> I use Linux, I seem to have to turn numlock back on every 20 seconds. I
>> DO NOT EVER WANT IT TO TURN OFF!!!>_<
>
> It never changes state here for me automatically.
Interesting. Every time I boot the PC, it turns off. Every time I log in
to the shell, it turns off. Every time I start X, it turns off. Every
time I stop X, it turns off. Every time I log out of the shell, it turns
off. It /constantly/ turns off.
Wait for the PC to boot up, turn on numlock, log in, turn numlock back
on, start X, turn numlock back on /again/. Teach the X configuration.
Stop X. Turn numlock back on. Start KDM. Turn numlock back on. Log in as
a user. Turn numlock on again. See the pattern here?
I did once see somebody from the local LUG explain how to keep numlock
permanently enabled in the shell, but it didn't seem to affect X.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 13:59:26
Message: <4e8dec7e$2@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 13:18:55 -0400, Alain wrote:
>> Sure, there are benefits. I'd have to be stupid not to know *that*.
>>
>> Jim
>
> I've never ever seen any calculator with the 1 2 3 keys at the top.
> Phones, yes, always, calculators, never.
*headdesk*
You're right - I'm wrong. That's what I get for not having a calculator
in front of me. ;)
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 14:00:08
Message: <4e8deca8$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:36:04 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>>> Ever noticed that the keyboard has a calculator side pad?
>>>>
>>>> Not on my laptop.
>>>
>>> My new laptop does though. ;-)
>>
>> I've seen a few laptops that have them, but the vast majority
>> (especially if you have a 'standard' (as opposed to 'wide') screen.
>
> Uh... I /think/ I understand what you wrote...
The laptops that have them tend to be widescreen laptops, as that gives
more room for an extended keyboard.
>>> From what I've seen, both layouts are equally common.
>>
>> Not on a computer - at least not that I've ever seen. On a calculator,
>> that may be true - I've only got 2 or 3 actual calculators here.
>
> Yeah, the whole keyboard layout on an IBM PC is pretty much standard. I
> meant more generally on devices with 10-digit input. Telephones,
> calculators, combination locks, etc.
Yes, those do tend to vary.
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 14:04:58
Message: <4e8dedca$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:38:22 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> I'm still trying to figure out how to make it permanently impossible
>>> to ever turn numlock off under any circumstances. Every single ****ing
>>> time I use Linux, I seem to have to turn numlock back on every 20
>>> seconds. I DO NOT EVER WANT IT TO TURN OFF!!!>_<
>>
>> It never changes state here for me automatically.
>
> Interesting. Every time I boot the PC, it turns off. Every time I log in
> to the shell, it turns off. Every time I start X, it turns off. Every
> time I stop X, it turns off. Every time I log out of the shell, it turns
> off. It /constantly/ turns off.
Mine never turns off on its own. Just switched between several VTs and
my X session, the state didn't change at all.
Now in YaST (openSUSE here, so it'll be somewhere else in other distros),
under the system keyboard, there is a setting for numlock state. Mine's
set to use the BIOS settings. Perhaps your setting is set to turn it on/
off or to leave it untouched. That might get you fixed for it.
> Wait for the PC to boot up, turn on numlock, log in, turn numlock back
> on, start X, turn numlock back on /again/. Teach the X configuration.
> Stop X. Turn numlock back on. Start KDM. Turn numlock back on. Log in as
> a user. Turn numlock on again. See the pattern here?
>
> I did once see somebody from the local LUG explain how to keep numlock
> permanently enabled in the shell, but it didn't seem to affect X.
"in the shell" - do you mean on a VT? Or is it changing when you open a
term window in X?
Jim
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On 06/10/2011 6:38 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Interesting. Every time I boot the PC, it turns off.
IIRC there should be a setting in the BIOS to turn it on at start up.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 06/10/2011 07:05 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 6:38 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Interesting. Every time I boot the PC, it turns off.
>
> IIRC there should be a setting in the BIOS to turn it on at start up.
There is. And when the BIOS runs, numlock is on. Once the Linux kernel
finishes loading, it turns off. (And if you press the key to turn it
back on, it stays on until you log into something...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> Interesting. Every time I boot the PC, it turns off. Every time I log in
>> to the shell, it turns off. Every time I start X, it turns off. Every
>> time I stop X, it turns off. Every time I log out of the shell, it turns
>> off. It /constantly/ turns off.
>
> Mine never turns off on its own. Just switched between several VTs and
> my X session, the state didn't change at all.
OK, well I guess it varies by distro then. This was, IIRC, Debian "potato".
>> I did once see somebody from the local LUG explain how to keep numlock
>> permanently enabled in the shell, but it didn't seem to affect X.
>
> "in the shell" - do you mean on a VT? Or is it changing when you open a
> term window in X?
I mean in the text-mode screen that appears before you tell X Windows to
start up. (I didn't have it configured to run at startup.)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 06/10/2011 7:48 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> There is. And when the BIOS runs, numlock is on. Once the Linux kernel
> finishes loading, it turns off. (And if you press the key to turn it
> back on, it stays on until you log into something...)
Another reason to give Linux a miss.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 06/10/2011 07:56 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 7:48 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> There is. And when the BIOS runs, numlock is on. Once the Linux kernel
>> finishes loading, it turns off. (And if you press the key to turn it
>> back on, it stays on until you log into something...)
>
> Another reason to give Linux a miss.
Linux is OK. The main reason I don't use it is that I have thousands of
pounds worth of software that only runs on Windows.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 18:23:13
Message: <4e8e2a51$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:56:26 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 7:48 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> There is. And when the BIOS runs, numlock is on. Once the Linux kernel
>> finishes loading, it turns off. (And if you press the key to turn it
>> back on, it stays on until you log into something...)
>
> Another reason to give Linux a miss.
<shrug> Works just fine for 99% of the users I've talked to. And I've
talked to a lot of Linux users. :)
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 18:24:19
Message: <4e8e2a93@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:50:34 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Interesting. Every time I boot the PC, it turns off. Every time I log
>>> in to the shell, it turns off. Every time I start X, it turns off.
>>> Every time I stop X, it turns off. Every time I log out of the shell,
>>> it turns off. It /constantly/ turns off.
>>
>> Mine never turns off on its own. Just switched between several VTs and
>> my X session, the state didn't change at all.
>
> OK, well I guess it varies by distro then. This was, IIRC, Debian
> "potato".
Possible. At the very least, there are ways to configure it to not do
what you're seeing, but not knowing Debian, I couldn't tell you how on
that distribution.
>>> I did once see somebody from the local LUG explain how to keep numlock
>>> permanently enabled in the shell, but it didn't seem to affect X.
>>
>> "in the shell" - do you mean on a VT? Or is it changing when you open
>> a term window in X?
>
> I mean in the text-mode screen that appears before you tell X Windows to
> start up. (I didn't have it configured to run at startup.)
That's a "virtual terminal" or VT. aka the "Console".
Jim
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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 18:32:19
Message: <4e8e2c73@news.povray.org>
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On 06/10/2011 11:23 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:56:26 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 06/10/2011 7:48 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> There is. And when the BIOS runs, numlock is on. Once the Linux kernel
>>> finishes loading, it turns off. (And if you press the key to turn it
>>> back on, it stays on until you log into something...)
>>
>> Another reason to give Linux a miss.
>
> <shrug> Works just fine for 99% of the users I've talked to. And I've
> talked to a lot of Linux users. :)
>
Ye’r not biased by any chance?
Actually I can’t be bothered to learn another OS and like Andrew I’ve
got lots of s/ware that works on Windoze.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 05/10/2011 3:58 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is to
>> > blame.
> Technology. Why should one have to figure out how to do sums when
> everyone has a phone with a calculator built into it?
Basics?
And you don't want to look like a tosser walking around a supermarket
with a calculator. Keep a running total in your head.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 05/10/2011 4:50 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> (Then again, it'll take you 20 seconds just to cancel out of the random
>> > submenu that the phone has opened in your pocket for no defined reason.)
> Well, that's why I put a shortcut on the screen for it.:)
>
In Windoze:
Start > type calc [enter]
--
Regards
Stephen
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 18:52:08
Message: <4e8e3118@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 23:34:11 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 05/10/2011 3:58 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> I blame the education system. I don’t know what for but something is
>>> to
>>> > blame.
>> Technology. Why should one have to figure out how to do sums when
>> everyone has a phone with a calculator built into it?
>
> Basics?
>
> And you don't want to look like a tosser walking around a supermarket
> with a calculator. Keep a running total in your head.
I rather have a shopping list. :)
And for something like a running total, round numbers are "good enough".
But one of the trends in learning in general is that people tend to not
try to remember facts because they can be looked up so easily. This is
analogous to people not being able to do basic arithmetic because of the
ubiquity of technology that makes it unnecessary.
I'm not saying it's a particularly good thing, but it's the way people
tend to behave.
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 18:52:54
Message: <4e8e3146$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 23:37:23 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 05/10/2011 4:50 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> (Then again, it'll take you 20 seconds just to cancel out of the
>>> random
>>> > submenu that the phone has opened in your pocket for no defined
>>> > reason.)
>> Well, that's why I put a shortcut on the screen for it.:)
>>
>>
> In Windoze:
>
> Start > type calc [enter]
In Linux:
In the already running terminal window (on my system, I always have one
running), "bc".
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 18:54:34
Message: <4e8e31aa$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 23:32:15 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 11:23 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:56:26 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/10/2011 7:48 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> There is. And when the BIOS runs, numlock is on. Once the Linux
>>>> kernel finishes loading, it turns off. (And if you press the key to
>>>> turn it back on, it stays on until you log into something...)
>>>
>>> Another reason to give Linux a miss.
>>
>> <shrug> Works just fine for 99% of the users I've talked to. And
>> I've talked to a lot of Linux users. :)
>>
> Ye’r not biased by any chance?
Oh, yes, I'm biased, and I don't try to hide it. :)
> Actually I can’t be bothered to learn another OS and like Andrew I’ve
> got lots of s/ware that works on Windoze.
Whereas I can't be bothered to use Windows for the vast majority of what
I use a computer for these days, and I don't have a collection of Windows
software holding me back. <gd&rvvvf>
But my point above was that if you're citing "numlock doesn't behave the
way I'm used to" as "another reason to give Linux a miss", it's not
really that great of a reason. ;)
Jim
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On 10/6/2011 15:23, Jim Henderson wrote:
> <shrug> Works just fine for 99% of the users I've talked to.
Other than audio and a couple other things, where I have a text file on the
desktop with the command lines to fix the f'ing problem the three or four
times a week it crops up.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 19:55:25
Message: <4e8e3fed$1@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 16:38:21 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/6/2011 15:23, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> <shrug> Works just fine for 99% of the users I've talked to.
>
> Other than audio and a couple other things, where I have a text file on
> the desktop with the command lines to fix the f'ing problem the three or
> four times a week it crops up.
Which problem, numlock for you too?
I've got openSUSE or SLE installed on 4 systems here and never have had a
problem with the numlock, and I can't recall ever seeing anyone ask a
question about it on the openSUSE forums.
Jim
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On 10/6/2011 16:55, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 16:38:21 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>
>> On 10/6/2011 15:23, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> <shrug> Works just fine for 99% of the users I've talked to.
>>
>> Other than audio and a couple other things, where I have a text file on
>> the desktop with the command lines to fix the f'ing problem the three or
>> four times a week it crops up.
>
> Which problem, numlock for you too?
No. Audio, and a few other things I probably shouldn't talk about. Along
with random weird-ass flakiness in the alert bar thing, randomly moving
things around, truncating them, duplicating them, etc. (The thing by default
in the top-right corner of Ubuntu, for example, with the date and the login
and the battery info, which just arbitrarily decides not to work on
occasion. Almost as fucked as Windows Sidebar. :-)
Randomly deciding which audio device it's going to use is rather annoying
when I'm trying to dial into a conference and I have to power-cycle the
machine to get it to recognize USB ports again.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
How come I never get only one kudo?
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Is this the end of the world as we know it?
Date: 6 Oct 2011 20:04:33
Message: <4e8e4211@news.povray.org>
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 16:58:36 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/6/2011 16:55, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 16:38:21 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/6/2011 15:23, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> <shrug> Works just fine for 99% of the users I've talked to.
>>>
>>> Other than audio and a couple other things, where I have a text file
>>> on the desktop with the command lines to fix the f'ing problem the
>>> three or four times a week it crops up.
>>
>> Which problem, numlock for you too?
>
> No. Audio, and a few other things I probably shouldn't talk about. Along
> with random weird-ass flakiness in the alert bar thing, randomly moving
> things around, truncating them, duplicating them, etc. (The thing by
> default in the top-right corner of Ubuntu, for example, with the date
> and the login and the battery info, which just arbitrarily decides not
> to work on occasion. Almost as fucked as Windows Sidebar. :-)
>
> Randomly deciding which audio device it's going to use is rather
> annoying when I'm trying to dial into a conference and I have to
> power-cycle the machine to get it to recognize USB ports again.
If it's openSUSE, we've got a guy who's really good with audio issues who
probably can work out what the issue is.
Though given that you said Ubuntu, I'm guessing it's not openSUSE....
Some people have success IIRC by removing pulseaudio. That seems to
cause more issues than it resolves.
Jim
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