On 10/6/2011 17:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Though given that you said Ubuntu, I'm guessing it's not openSUSE....

Technically, it's goobuntu.  Everything at google starts with a G. It's 
actually somewhat disturbing.

> Some people have success IIRC by removing pulseaudio.  That seems to
> cause more issues than it resolves.

Meh. I'll just reset it whenever it happens, and bitch about it.  I should 
probably track down the command line options it would take to make it even 
more automated than it is, but like I have bunches of free time these days...

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 18:48:29 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/6/2011 17:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Though given that you said Ubuntu, I'm guessing it's not openSUSE....
> 
> Technically, it's goobuntu.  Everything at google starts with a G. It's
> actually somewhat disturbing.

Ah, right, I forgot that you recently changed jobs. :)

You don't know anything about ChromeOS, do you?  I'm trying to play with 
it on a Dell laptop (using the hexxeh builds) and looking for some 
troubleshooting.  It's locked down to a point of not really being able to 
"fix" it, at least not when I boot from the flash drive.

Just playing with it mostly to see if I can get the Netflix streaming 
plugin to actually work, since it's supposed to with ChromeOS but not 
with just Chrome on Linux (which seems silly, but I don't blame Google 
for that, I blame MPAA and IFPI for that restriction).

>> Some people have success IIRC by removing pulseaudio.  That seems to
>> cause more issues than it resolves.
> 
> Meh. I'll just reset it whenever it happens, and bitch about it.  I
> should probably track down the command line options it would take to
> make it even more automated than it is, but like I have bunches of free
> time these days...

LOL, as long as you realize that there are loads of people for whom it's 
not a problem. :)

Jim

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On 10/6/2011 21:13, Jim Henderson wrote:
> You don't know anything about ChromeOS, do you?

Only what I've heard people talking about at lunch. Nothing that would help 
any more than my complaining about Linux does. ;-)

> LOL, as long as you realize that there are loads of people for whom it's
> not a problem. :)

I think of all the areas, "audio" and "usability" are recognized as being 
low on the list for Linux. And by "usability", I mean things like "give the 
focus to the window I just opened, instead of some random window on some 
other workspace" and "when I plug in a USB audio device, yeah, I probably 
want to use that one without launching an xterm to select it. Oh, and by the 
way, the volume control slider? Probably a good idea to set the volume of 
the audio device to the setting of the volume control slider without me 
having to go and manually slide it up and down a bit to get it to apply to 
the newly selected audio device."   Just dumb crap like that that isn't 
worth fixing if nobody is paying you to do so.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 21:35:07 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/6/2011 21:13, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> You don't know anything about ChromeOS, do you?
> 
> Only what I've heard people talking about at lunch. Nothing that would
> help any more than my complaining about Linux does. ;-)

:)

>> LOL, as long as you realize that there are loads of people for whom
>> it's not a problem. :)
> 
> I think of all the areas, "audio" and "usability" are recognized as
> being low on the list for Linux. And by "usability", I mean things like
> "give the focus to the window I just opened, instead of some random
> window on some other workspace" and "when I plug in a USB audio device,
> yeah, I probably want to use that one without launching an xterm to
> select it. Oh, and by the way, the volume control slider? Probably a
> good idea to set the volume of the audio device to the setting of the
> volume control slider without me having to go and manually slide it up
> and down a bit to get it to apply to the newly selected audio device."  
> Just dumb crap like that that isn't worth fixing if nobody is paying you
> to do so.

Audio certainly is an area that's recognised as being problematic.

For your usability comments:

1.  Never had a problem with focus going someplace I didn't expect (or if 
I have, it's been a long time).  I do have windows set to auto-raise on 
my system, which may make a difference.

2.  The rest is audio related, which really falls under what I said above.

Jim

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>>> Mine never turns off on its own.  Just switched between several VTs and
>>> my X session, the state didn't change at all.
>>
>> OK, well I guess it varies by distro then. This was, IIRC, Debian
>> "potato".
>
> Possible.  At the very least, there are ways to configure it to not do
> what you're seeing, but not knowing Debian, I couldn't tell you how on
> that distribution.

Quite. As I recall, stopping the shell doing this involved editing 
~/.bashrc and setting an environment variable or something like that.

>>> "in the shell" - do you mean on a VT?  Or is it changing when you open
>>> a term window in X?
>>
>> I mean in the text-mode screen that appears before you tell X Windows to
>> start up. (I didn't have it configured to run at startup.)
>
> That's a "virtual terminal" or VT.  aka the "Console".

Oh, right. I thought that refers only to when you run an X application 
that emulates a terminal in a window.

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On 06/10/2011 11:32 PM, Stephen wrote:

> Actually I can’t be bothered to learn another OS and like Andrew I’ve
> got lots of s/ware that works on Windoze.

It's worth learning just to see how it does stuff different. (At least, 
if you're curious about stuff like I am.) Whether it's worth /using/ is 
another matter entirely...

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> Audio certainly is an area that's recognised as being problematic.

Really? I thought that was Wi-Fi.

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>> LOL, as long as you realize that there are loads of people for whom it's
>> not a problem. :)
>
> I think of all the areas, "audio" and "usability" are recognized as
> being low on the list for Linux.

Required XKCD quote: http://xkcd.com/619/

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On 07/10/2011 02:48 AM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/6/2011 17:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Though given that you said Ubuntu, I'm guessing it's not openSUSE....
>
> Technically, it's goobuntu. Everything at google starts with a G. It's
> actually somewhat disturbing.

I am disturbed. o_O

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>> In Windoze:
>>
>> Start>  type calc [enter]

Actually, I put that on the Quick Launch bar so I can always access it 
quickly.

> In Linux:
>
> In the already running terminal window (on my system, I always have one
> running), "bc".

1. How do you get it so a terminal is always available? (Most distros 
I've seen make the terminal program one of the hardest things to find. 
It's easy to find Firefox or Evolution or Jabba, but the terminal window 
is usually somewhere under "advanced"... It's almost as if I'm using a 
Microsoft OS!)

2. Why type "bc" when you can type "ghci"? ;-)

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On 06/10/2011 11:52 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> I rather have a shopping list.:)
>
> And for something like a running total, round numbers are "good enough".
>

I do and it is. But knowing what to round and in what direction requires 
a little effort.

> But one of the trends in learning in general is that people tend to not
> try to remember facts because they can be looked up so easily.  This is
> analogous to people not being able to do basic arithmetic because of the
> ubiquity of technology that makes it unnecessary.
>

And is that a good trend? If you don't exercise your memory then you run 
the risk of not being able to use it when you need it. It is all very 
well being able to look things up but if you can't remember what it is 
that you want to know.
Another case is in social interaction. It gives a poor impression if you 
can't remember who the current prime minister or president is but say 
just a minute while I Google that.

> I'm not saying it's a particularly good thing, but it's the way people
> tend to behave.

They also like to sit on a couch and eat potatoes. ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 06/10/2011 11:52 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> In Windoze:
>> >
>> >  Start>  type calc [enter]
> In Linux:
>
> In the already running terminal window (on my system, I always have one
> running), "bc".

Better than short cuts on the desktop IMO.
But then it (unreasonably) pisses me off watching some other people use 
their computers. Their slow deliberate use of the mouse and context menu 
makes me want to shove them aside and drive myself. Lord! I'm getting to 
be a crusty old man. :-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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>> But one of the trends in learning in general is that people tend to not
>> try to remember facts because they can be looked up so easily. This is
>> analogous to people not being able to do basic arithmetic because of the
>> ubiquity of technology that makes it unnecessary.
>
> And is that a good trend?

I doubt it.

> If you don't exercise your memory then you run
> the risk of not being able to use it when you need it. It is all very
> well being able to look things up but if you can't remember what it is
> that you want to know.

For some reason, every single time I'm in a car, I think up an endless 
list of things I want to look up. And then when I get to my computer, I 
can't remember any of it. Apparently I'm stupid.

> Another case is in social interaction. It gives a poor impression if you
> can't remember who the current prime minister or president is but say
> just a minute while I Google that.

In other news: I have absolutely no idea who is in charge of this 
country at the moment. Then again, given the minimal impact it has had 
on my life, I suppose that might be why.

>> I'm not saying it's a particularly good thing, but it's the way people
>> tend to behave.
>
> They also like to sit on a couch and eat potatoes. ;-)

"Hey Andrew, aren't you going to come and watch Strictly Come Dancing 
with me?"

"Erm, no. I'm going to go out with my friends and ACTUALLY DANCE. Not 
sit on a couch and merely WATCH people dance. :-P But hey, you enjoy 
your evening."

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> But then it (unreasonably) pisses me off watching some other people use
> their computers. Their slow deliberate use of the mouse and context menu
> makes me want to shove them aside and drive myself. Lord! I'm getting to
> be a crusty old man. :-)

No, that was already annoying me 20 years ago...

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On 06/10/2011 11:54 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Ye’r not biased by any chance?
> Oh, yes, I'm biased, and I don't try to hide it.:)
>

I know, I know. :-)

>> >  Actually I can’t be bothered to learn another OS and like Andrew I’ve
>> >  got lots of s/ware that works on Windoze.
> Whereas I can't be bothered to use Windows for the vast majority of what
> I use a computer for these days, and I don't have a collection of Windows
> software holding me back.<gd&rvvvf>
>
That is another point. I need the M$ Office Suite for work and 
complained bitterly when they changed to Office 2007. Which reminds me 
of the faux quote attributed to Petronius Arbiter.

"We trained hard... but it seemed that every time we were beginning to 
form up into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life 
that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful 
method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing 
confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."

> But my point above was that if you're citing "numlock doesn't behave the
> way I'm used to" as "another reason to give Linux a miss", it's not
> really that great of a reason.;)

It is no reason at all, at all. :-D

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 07/10/2011 9:11 AM, Invisible wrote:
> On 06/10/2011 11:32 PM, Stephen wrote:
>
>> Actually I can’t be bothered to learn another OS and like Andrew I’ve
>> got lots of s/ware that works on Windoze.
>
> It's worth learning just to see how it does stuff different. (At least,
> if you're curious about stuff like I am.) Whether it's worth /using/ is
> another matter entirely...

That is a good point. But I've reached a point where I feel that 
computers and their software are no longer devices that need to be 
studied, understood and mastered but used as tools. My life and 
interests have changed over time.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 07/10/2011 9:47 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> But then it (unreasonably) pisses me off watching some other people use
>> their computers. Their slow deliberate use of the mouse and context menu
>> makes me want to shove them aside and drive myself. Lord! I'm getting to
>> be a crusty old man. :-)
>
> No, that was already annoying me 20 years ago...

I'm just getting round to saying it out loud.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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> That is another point. I need the M$ Office Suite for work and
> complained bitterly when they changed to Office 2007. Which reminds me
> of the faux quote attributed to Petronius Arbiter.

I've just spent all week replacing Office 2003 with Office 2010 on all 
of our PCs. Now nobody can find any of the buttons! :-D

Oh, they're all still there. They're just in different locations. 
Because, let's face it, MS has been selling essentially the same office 
suite for 20 years now. They have to do *something* to make it appear 
that the expensive new version is actually different to the previous ones...

Post a reply to this message

>>> Actually I can’t be bothered to learn another OS and like Andrew I’ve
>>> got lots of s/ware that works on Windoze.
>>
>> It's worth learning just to see how it does stuff different. (At least,
>> if you're curious about stuff like I am.) Whether it's worth /using/ is
>> another matter entirely...
>
> That is a good point. But I've reached a point where I feel that
> computers and their software are no longer devices that need to be
> studied, understood and mastered but used as tools. My life and
> interests have changed over time.

Fair enough.

As I'm fond of saying, "life is all about priorities".

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On 07/10/2011 9:45 AM, Invisible wrote:
>
> For some reason, every single time I'm in a car, I think up an endless
> list of things I want to look up. And then when I get to my computer, I
> can't remember any of it.

It was either a lie or not important.

The internet is a wonderful way of wasting time. Last night my wife 
asked me what the phrase “The Orange Squeeze” meant wrt William and Mary 
(1689 to 1702). I spent the rest of the evening listing to folk music. 
Starting with The Skye Boat Song then the Mingulay Boat Song going on to 
the Chieftains and ending up with Robin Hall and Jimmie Macgregor. A 
trip down memory lane although I had never heard of the Red Hot Chilli 
Pipers before.


> Apparently I'm stupid.

Yes you are. Now are you happy? :-P

>
> In other news: I have absolutely no idea who is in charge of this
> country at the moment. Then again, given the minimal impact it has had
> on my life, I suppose that might be why.
>

You might just be wrong on it having no impact on your life.


>>
>> They also like to sit on a couch and eat potatoes. ;-)
>
> "Hey Andrew, aren't you going to come and watch Strictly Come Dancing
> with me?"
>

N.B. Others. Andrew not Andy.

> "Erm, no. I'm going to go out with my friends and ACTUALLY DANCE. Not
> sit on a couch and merely WATCH people dance. :-P But hey, you enjoy
> your evening."

Good for you.
-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 07/10/2011 10:57 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> That is another point. I need the M$ Office Suite for work and
>> complained bitterly when they changed to Office 2007. Which reminds me
>> of the faux quote attributed to Petronius Arbiter.
>
> I've just spent all week replacing Office 2003 with Office 2010 on all
> of our PCs. Now nobody can find any of the buttons! :-D
>

Life's a b*gger!

> Oh, they're all still there. They're just in different locations.
> Because, let's face it, MS has been selling essentially the same office
> suite for 20 years now. They have to do *something* to make it appear
> that the expensive new version is actually different to the previous
> ones...

So cynical for one so young. :-P

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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>> For some reason, every single time I'm in a car, I think up an endless
>> list of things I want to look up. And then when I get to my computer, I
>> can't remember any of it.
>
> It was either a lie or not important.

Most of my /life/ is unimportant. :-(

> The internet is a wonderful way of wasting time.

Required XKCD quote: http://xkcd.com/214/

>> Apparently I'm stupid.
>
> Yes you are. Now are you happy? :-P

No, just disappointed.

Required XKCD quote: http://xkcd.com/903/

>> In other news: I have absolutely no idea who is in charge of this
>> country at the moment. Then again, given the minimal impact it has had
>> on my life, I suppose that might be why.
>
> You might just be wrong on it having no impact on your life.

Voting is such a fun time! I can vote for this lying, cheating, 
self-centered hypocrite, or I can vote for a completely different lying, 
cheating, self-centered hypocrite. Isn't that wonderful?

(Naturally, I vote mainly to avoid the raving loonies coming to power, 
rather than because I actually like the guys we ended up with.)

>> "Erm, no. I'm going to go out with my friends and ACTUALLY DANCE. Not
>> sit on a couch and merely WATCH people dance. :-P But hey, you enjoy
>> your evening."
>
> Good for you.

It feels good to 0wn people. :-)

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>> Oh, they're all still there. They're just in different locations.
>> Because, let's face it, MS has been selling essentially the same office
>> suite for 20 years now. They have to do *something* to make it appear
>> that the expensive new version is actually different to the previous
>> ones...
>
> So cynical for one so young. :-P

Young? :-P

Seriously. Name /one thing/ that Word 2010 has that Word 2 for 
Workgroups didn't have. Sometime around Word 97 or so that added 
antialiased text. Word has had styles for ages, but in Word 2007 and 
later they're /most obvious/ in the GUI, and you can change the styling 
of the whole document at the flick of a button. (And there are default 
styles supplied.) That's about all I can think of. With 20 years of 
development, that's a pretty unimpressive list.

How about Excel 2010? Well, Excel 2 had charts. They looked horrid, but 
they were there. Each new release of Excel adds a few more chart types. 
In Excel 2007, they changed charts to look nice. (They have antialias at 
last! And decent colour schemes. And so forth.) If that's all they've 
managed to do in 20 years of development, again that's pretty thin.

I don't even use Access or PowerPoint heavily enough to comment 
meaningfully. PowerPoint seems to get a few new slide transition effects 
and slide templates with each release, but that's about it. Access 
doesn't appear to have changed /in any way/ since V2.

And then there's Outlook. (Not Outlook Express, because that's an 
unrelated product.) The oldest version I've seen is Outlook 2000. The 
only difference I'm aware of with Outlook 2010 is that they /finally/ 
made it so it automatically knows where the email server is, without me 
having to manually configure that for every user on every PC on the 
entire network one at a time. Thanks for that.

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On 07/10/2011 11:44 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Seriously. Name /one thing/ that Word 2010 has that Word 2 for
> Workgroups didn't have. Sometime around Word 97 or so that added
> antialiased text. Word has had styles for ages, but in Word 2007 and
> later they're /most obvious/ in the GUI, and you can change the styling
> of the whole document at the flick of a button. (And there are default
> styles supplied.) That's about all I can think of. With 20 years of
> development, that's a pretty unimpressive list.
>

They have added the ability to embed another document inside word 
instead of just linking to it. Very handy if you want to create a 
document locally and upload it to a secure server.

> How about Excel 2010? Well, Excel 2 had charts. They looked horrid, but
> they were there. Each new release of Excel adds a few more chart types.
> In Excel 2007, they changed charts to look nice. (They have antialias at
> last! And decent colour schemes. And so forth.) If that's all they've
> managed to do in 20 years of development, again that's pretty thin.
>

Talking about charts, the ability to get trend lines from your data and 
display the equation, is useful. Before you had to use Power Point for that.

> I don't even use Access or PowerPoint heavily enough to comment
> meaningfully. PowerPoint seems to get a few new slide transition effects
> and slide templates with each release, but that's about it. Access
> doesn't appear to have changed /in any way/ since V2.
>

I've not used Access for yonks and Power Point makes me fall asl... 
zzzzz ;-)

> And then there's Outlook. (Not Outlook Express, because that's an
> unrelated product.) The oldest version I've seen is Outlook 2000. The
> only difference I'm aware of with Outlook 2010 is that they /finally/
> made it so it automatically knows where the email server is, without me
> having to manually configure that for every user on every PC on the
> entire network one at a time. Thanks for that.

If you have ever used Lotus Notes you would not be complaining. ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 07/10/2011 11:38 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Most of my /life/ is unimportant. :-(
>

Dinkums!

It is what you make it.


>>> Apparently I'm stupid.
>>
>> Yes you are. Now are you happy? :-P
>
> No, just disappointed.
>

What that I agreed with you? (Lordy! Lordy! There is no pleasing some 
people. :-P


>
> Voting is such a fun time! I can vote for this lying, cheating,
> self-centered hypocrite, or I can vote for a completely different lying,
> cheating, self-centered hypocrite. Isn't that wonderful?

See you are not stupid you can tell when a politician is lying.

A. Their lips are moving. ;-)


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 07/10/2011 03:29 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 07/10/2011 11:44 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> Seriously. Name /one thing/ that Word 2010 has that Word 2 for
>> Workgroups didn't have.
>
> They have added the ability to embed another document inside word
> instead of just linking to it. Very handy if you want to create a
> document locally and upload it to a secure server.

I'm fairly sure Office v2 had that. I may be wrong. Certainly Office 97 
definitely had that. And that was, what, 14 years ago?

>> How about Excel 2010? Well, Excel 2 had charts. They looked horrid, but
>> they were there. Each new release of Excel adds a few more chart types.
>
> Talking about charts, the ability to get trend lines from your data and
> display the equation, is useful. Before you had to use Power Point for
> that.

Excel 97 had trend lines. Again, 14 years ago.

> I've not used Access for yonks and Power Point makes me fall asl...
> zzzzz ;-)

I think that's an issue with the kind of people who use PowerPoint, 
rather than an issue with the software itself. ;-)

>> And then there's Outlook.
>
> If you have ever used Lotus Notes you would not be complaining. ;-)

Outlook is quite nice. Exchange is a hellish nightmare. (Or at least, 
the version I used was. That was a while ago now...)

In fairness, I'm not aware of anything else that does what Outlook and 
Exchange do.

Post a reply to this message

>> Most of my /life/ is unimportant. :-(
>
> Dinkums!
>
> It is what you make it.

And apparently most of what I make it is surfing the net to pass the 
time. (Mainly because it's intractably difficult to actually /achieve/ 
anything...)

>>>> Apparently I'm stupid.
>>>
>>> Yes you are. Now are you happy? :-P
>>
>> No, just disappointed.
>
> What that I agreed with you?

No. I'm unhappy that I'm stupid. (And fat, and unfit, and unattractive, 
and...)

> See you are not stupid you can tell when a politician is lying.
>
> A. Their lips are moving. ;-)

No, no. See, even their non-verbal communication is a lie!

See that guy smiling? It isn't because our country has a bright future 
now...

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On 07/10/2011 3:36 PM, Invisible wrote:
> I'm fairly sure Office v2 had that. I may be wrong. Certainly Office 97
> definitely had that. And that was, what, 14 years ago?
>

May be but it works now. The number of projects I've been on and when 
you try to read the embedded docs from a server and can't, are legion.


>
> Excel 97 had trend lines. Again, 14 years ago.
>

But would it tell you what the equation was? Of course I could be in my 
dotage and it was that long ago.


>
> I think that's an issue with the kind of people who use PowerPoint,
> rather than an issue with the software itself. ;-)
>

Okay, I'll give you that.

>>> And then there's Outlook.
>>
>> If you have ever used Lotus Notes you would not be complaining. ;-)
>
> Outlook is quite nice. Exchange is a hellish nightmare. (Or at least,
> the version I used was. That was a while ago now...)
>

It's not got any better IME.

> In fairness, I'm not aware of anything else that does what Outlook and
> Exchange do.

For big companies, you are probably right.
-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 07/10/2011 3:38 PM, Invisible wrote:
>
> No. I'm unhappy that I'm stupid. (And fat, and unfit, and unattractive,
> and...)

O_O

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:

> In fairness, I'm not aware of anything else that does what Outlook and
> Exchange do.


Sledgehammer?  ... C6?   ... Sidewinder missle?

Post a reply to this message

On 10/7/2011 7:36 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Outlook is quite nice. Exchange is a hellish nightmare. (Or at least,
> the version I used was. That was a while ago now...)
>
> In fairness, I'm not aware of anything else that does what Outlook and
> Exchange do.
What, install viruses? Sorry, haven't used it myself for some time, so I 
have no clue what "special feature" these are supposed to have. lol

Post a reply to this message

On 10/7/2011 1:47 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> But then it (unreasonably) pisses me off watching some other people use
>> their computers. Their slow deliberate use of the mouse and context menu
>> makes me want to shove them aside and drive myself. Lord! I'm getting to
>> be a crusty old man. :-)
>
> No, that was already annoying me 20 years ago...
Sigh.. You people are the cause of things like Blender being a damn 
nightmare of hotkeys you have to memorize to do shit, even in the new 
version, instead of a damn toolbar, and controls that are in places that 
make some slight sense. Though.. I suppose it is marginally better than 
K-3D, which seems to use the toolbar to insert animation elements, while 
using a right click menu for the "actual" build functions (with 
identical names)... I mean, how the frak are you supposed to scroll 
through 900 damn menu items to find something, often with some bizarre 
name, instead of using the toolbar to just pick the "bend this" 
function? I seriously wonder some times about the sanity of the people 
that write some of these applications.

Still. For someone that doesn't have enough money to shell out $4,000 in 
software, to get the applications that are the top line out there, I ask 
just one question, "Why they hell isn't there anything that comes even 
'vaguely' close to Rhinoceros?" At least Photoshop has both Gimp, and 
the cheaper, but still not free, but close enough, Paintshop Pro. But, 
you want Nurbs... Good luck finding one that fully supports it, and 
isn't an, "all in one, so we do everything incompletely, and in the most 
confusing way possible", application.

And, somehow, using Wings, just isn't going to be real fun. The only up 
side is, I am looking for one to export to a non-nurbs mesh, and/or 
directly to Collada (or how ever its spelled), because Linden Labs 
"finally" got off their asses and supported mesh imports, instead of the 
nightmare displacement map idiocy they called "sculpties", and everyone 
else called "prim torture". lol

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>> In fairness, I'm not aware of anything else that does what Outlook and
>> Exchange do.

> What, install viruses?

I've heard Word used to do that a lot. I've never seen it actually 
happen with Outlook though.

> Sorry, haven't used it myself for some time, so I
> have no clue what "special feature" these are supposed to have. lol

I've seen plenty of software that gives you a calendar, to-do list, and 
so on. I've seen software that lets you send email via SMTP, and receive 
it via IMAP or POP3. I've seen server software to go on the other end.

But the combination of Outlook and Exchange does far more than that. 
Exchange stores email (and more) in a central database, with online 
backup and restore features, quotas and so forth. Outlook lets you read 
your email directly off the server. You don't have to "download" it as 
you do with normal email protocols. The server database and the client 
database are kept automatically synchronised, without you having to 
manually micro-manage it. You can send an email to somebody else without 
it ever leaving the server. You can get a list of all the servers on the 
server, and you can email somebody just by typing their real name. You 
can request notifications, so you know when somebody has read the email 
you sent them. You can create shared folders, which receive external 
email and multiple people can access it, see which messages have been 
read, etc. You can do shared calendars. You can design a form, email it 
to a bunch of people, and the server will collate the results. You can 
do email processing rules ON THE SERVER, rather than at your particular 
client.

I haven't seen anything else that can do half this stuff.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:37:46 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 06/10/2011 11:52 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I rather have a shopping list.:)
>>
>> And for something like a running total, round numbers are "good
>> enough".
>>
>>
> I do and it is. But knowing what to round and in what direction requires
> a little effort.

Certainly. :)

>> But one of the trends in learning in general is that people tend to not
>> try to remember facts because they can be looked up so easily.  This is
>> analogous to people not being able to do basic arithmetic because of
>> the ubiquity of technology that makes it unnecessary.
>>
>>
> And is that a good trend? If you don't exercise your memory then you run
> the risk of not being able to use it when you need it. It is all very
> well being able to look things up but if you can't remember what it is
> that you want to know.

Well, I didn't say it was a good trend, but it is the way it is.  People 
tend to want 'just in time' information these days, rather than having to 
remember pesky facts.

> Another case is in social interaction. It gives a poor impression if you
> can't remember who the current prime minister or president is but say
> just a minute while I Google that.

Sure, amongst our age classes.  Amongst younger age groups, though, value 
knowing how to find out stuff rather than having to remember it all.  
Good or bad, it is what it is.

>> I'm not saying it's a particularly good thing, but it's the way people
>> tend to behave.
> 
> They also like to sit on a couch and eat potatoes. ;-)

True.  Speaking of which, I need to get some lunch. :)

Jim

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On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:25:56 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> In Windoze:
>>>
>>> Start>  type calc [enter]
> 
> Actually, I put that on the Quick Launch bar so I can always access it
> quickly.
> 
>> In Linux:
>>
>> In the already running terminal window (on my system, I always have one
>> running), "bc".
> 
> 1. How do you get it so a terminal is always available? (Most distros
> I've seen make the terminal program one of the hardest things to find.

Alt-F2 -> gnome-terminal.

Done.

> It's easy to find Firefox or Evolution or Jabba, but the terminal window
> is usually somewhere under "advanced"... It's almost as if I'm using a
> Microsoft OS!)

It's usually under "system tools", which is appropriate.

> 2. Why type "bc" when you can type "ghci"? ;-)

Because 'bc' actually does something on my system - namely, it starts an 
arbitrary precision calculator. :)

Jim

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On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:44:44 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 06/10/2011 11:52 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> In Windoze:
>>> >
>>> >  Start>  type calc [enter]
>> In Linux:
>>
>> In the already running terminal window (on my system, I always have one
>> running), "bc".
> 
> Better than short cuts on the desktop IMO. But then it (unreasonably)
> pisses me off watching some other people use their computers. Their slow
> deliberate use of the mouse and context menu makes me want to shove them
> aside and drive myself. Lord! I'm getting to be a crusty old man. :-)

I know what you mean (about both statements!)

I find myself often trying to drive someone else's computer by using my 
voice.  I tell you, voice control of another person's computer with them 
interpreting is probably one of the more frustrating things to do.

Or when my mom starts reading an error message to me - and after three 
words, I know what the next thing is and what to do next.

Jim

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I'll top post as I'm sure nobody wants to read all that again.

What do you mean?

On 07/10/2011 6:51 PM, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 10/7/2011 1:47 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>> But then it (unreasonably) pisses me off watching some other people use
>>> their computers. Their slow deliberate use of the mouse and context menu
>>> makes me want to shove them aside and drive myself. Lord! I'm getting to
>>> be a crusty old man. :-)
>>
>> No, that was already annoying me 20 years ago...
> Sigh.. You people are the cause of things like Blender being a damn
> nightmare of hotkeys you have to memorize to do shit, even in the new
> version, instead of a damn toolbar, and controls that are in places that
> make some slight sense. Though.. I suppose it is marginally better than
> K-3D, which seems to use the toolbar to insert animation elements, while
> using a right click menu for the "actual" build functions (with
> identical names)... I mean, how the frak are you supposed to scroll
> through 900 damn menu items to find something, often with some bizarre
> name, instead of using the toolbar to just pick the "bend this"
> function? I seriously wonder some times about the sanity of the people
> that write some of these applications.
>
> Still. For someone that doesn't have enough money to shell out $4,000 in
> software, to get the applications that are the top line out there, I ask
> just one question, "Why they hell isn't there anything that comes even
> 'vaguely' close to Rhinoceros?" At least Photoshop has both Gimp, and
> the cheaper, but still not free, but close enough, Paintshop Pro. But,
> you want Nurbs... Good luck finding one that fully supports it, and
> isn't an, "all in one, so we do everything incompletely, and in the most
> confusing way possible", application.
>
> And, somehow, using Wings, just isn't going to be real fun. The only up
> side is, I am looking for one to export to a non-nurbs mesh, and/or
> directly to Collada (or how ever its spelled), because Linden Labs
> "finally" got off their asses and supported mesh imports, instead of the
> nightmare displacement map idiocy they called "sculpties", and everyone
> else called "prim torture". lol


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 10:25:55 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 06/10/2011 11:54 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Ye’r not biased by any chance?
>> Oh, yes, I'm biased, and I don't try to hide it.:)
>>
>>
> I know, I know. :-)

Well, I know how it is when age starts creeping in.  My dad always said 
that memory was the second thing to go. (Can't remember if I've told that 
one here before or not - but I probably have <g>)

>>> >  Actually I can’t be bothered to learn another OS and like Andrew
>>> >  I’ve got lots of s/ware that works on Windoze.
>> Whereas I can't be bothered to use Windows for the vast majority of
>> what I use a computer for these days, and I don't have a collection of
>> Windows software holding me back.<gd&rvvvf>
>>
> That is another point. I need the M$ Office Suite for work and
> complained bitterly when they changed to Office 2007. Which reminds me
> of the faux quote attributed to Petronius Arbiter.
> 
> "We trained hard... but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
> form up into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life
> that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful
> method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing
> confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."

Yeah, and that is a good quote, faux or not. :)

>> But my point above was that if you're citing "numlock doesn't behave
>> the way I'm used to" as "another reason to give Linux a miss", it's not
>> really that great of a reason.;)
> 
> It is no reason at all, at all. :-D

Well, exactly. :)

Jim

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On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:15:06 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>> Audio certainly is an area that's recognised as being problematic.
> 
> Really? I thought that was Wi-Fi.

Nah, Wi-Fi is pretty easy - either it works or it doesn't.  Either you 
have the firmware necessary or you don't.

Audio is so horribly complex on Linux because there's at least 3 
different systems to use it, and nobody's standardised on one.  OSS.  
Alsa.  PulseAudio.  The standards were all not standardised, so they 
decided to fix the problem by creating ANOTHER STANDARD.

Gah.

Jim

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On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:08:25 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>>> Mine never turns off on its own.  Just switched between several VTs
>>>> and my X session, the state didn't change at all.
>>>
>>> OK, well I guess it varies by distro then. This was, IIRC, Debian
>>> "potato".
>>
>> Possible.  At the very least, there are ways to configure it to not do
>> what you're seeing, but not knowing Debian, I couldn't tell you how on
>> that distribution.
> 
> Quite. As I recall, stopping the shell doing this involved editing
> ~/.bashrc and setting an environment variable or something like that.

An environment variable on its own wouldn't do anything.  It's got to be 
used by something, obviously. :)

>>>> "in the shell" - do you mean on a VT?  Or is it changing when you
>>>> open a term window in X?
>>>
>>> I mean in the text-mode screen that appears before you tell X Windows
>>> to start up. (I didn't have it configured to run at startup.)
>>
>> That's a "virtual terminal" or VT.  aka the "Console".
> 
> Oh, right. I thought that refers only to when you run an X application
> that emulates a terminal in a window.

That's technically called a 'pseudoterminal' - pts.  "man pts" is 
interesting reading, if you like that sort of thing.

Jim

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On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:10:33 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> I'll top post as I'm sure nobody wants to read all that again.
> 
> What do you mean?

LOL

Post a reply to this message

>>> Audio certainly is an area that's recognised as being problematic.
>>
>> Really? I thought that was Wi-Fi.
>
> Nah, Wi-Fi is pretty easy - either it works or it doesn't.  Either you
> have the firmware necessary or you don't.
>
> Audio is so horribly complex on Linux because there's at least 3
> different systems to use it, and nobody's standardised on one.  OSS.
> Alsa.  PulseAudio.

Ah yes, that's fun.

I especially like the way that installing one GNOME application installs 
the entire GNOME system, including the GNOME sound daemon. And all I 
actually wanted to do was run gedit...

> The standards were all not standardised, so they
> decided to fix the problem by creating ANOTHER STANDARD.
>
> Gah.

Required XKCD quote: http://xkcd.com/927/

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>> 1. How do you get it so a terminal is always available? (Most distros
>> I've seen make the terminal program one of the hardest things to find.
>
> Alt-F2 ->  gnome-terminal.
>
> Done.

I presume that only works if GNOME is your WM?

>> It's easy to find Firefox or Evolution or Jabba, but the terminal window
>> is usually somewhere under "advanced"... It's almost as if I'm using a
>> Microsoft OS!)
>
> It's usually under "system tools", which is appropriate.

With Ubuntu, it's "accessories". With OpenSUSE, it was somewhere else. I 
forget where the heck it was with Debian.

KNOPPIX put it right on the desktop though. Smart guys...

>> 2. Why type "bc" when you can type "ghci"? ;-)
>
> Because 'bc' actually does something on my system - namely, it starts an
> arbitrary precision calculator. :)

Yeah, I wasn't entirely serious with that one. ;-)

Typing "ghci" starts the Glasgow Haskell Compiler in Interactive mode - 
i.e., an REPL for Haskell. Which has arbitrary math support backed by 
the GMP [which is probably what powers bc, I wouldn't be surprised...] 
But it's also a full Turing-complete programming language, not just a 
calculator.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 07/10/2011 06:51 PM, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 10/7/2011 1:47 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>> But then it (unreasonably) pisses me off watching some other people use
>>> their computers. Their slow deliberate use of the mouse and context menu
>>> makes me want to shove them aside and drive myself. Lord! I'm getting to
>>> be a crusty old man. :-)
>>
>> No, that was already annoying me 20 years ago...
> Sigh.. You people are the cause of things like Blender being a damn
> nightmare of hotkeys you have to memorize to do shit, even in the new
> version, instead of a damn toolbar, and controls that are in places that
> make some slight sense.

No - that's just poor program design. Everybody has that... ;-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 10/7/2011 12:15, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Oh, right. I thought that refers only to when you run an X application
>> that emulates a terminal in a window.
>
> That's technically called a 'pseudoterminal' - pts.  "man pts" is
> interesting reading, if you like that sort of thing.

No, that's an xterminal or a terminal window. A pts (actually, ptty) is a 
device driver that isn't a terminal but exposes the same ioctls as a 
terminal (and in particular can belong to a process group). Because UNIX 
never figured out the concept of a "login".

Unless a pts is different from a ptty?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/7/2011 7:36, Invisible wrote:
> I'm fairly sure Office v2 had that. I may be wrong. Certainly Office 97
> definitely had that. And that was, what, 14 years ago?

Pretty sure they didn't have .NET integration, integration with SQL server, 
or cooperative shared editting.

> In fairness, I'm not aware of anything else that does what Outlook and
> Exchange do.

And that is why the world still runs Microsoft. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/7/2011 2:38, Stephen wrote:
> That is a good point. But I've reached a point where I feel that computers
> and their software are no longer devices that need to be studied, understood
> and mastered but used as tools. My life and interests have changed over time.

Plus, Linux vs Windows isn't really that big a difference, if you really 
want to study something new. Learn how Lisp Machines worked, or how AmigaOS 
was organized, or how Singularity works, rather than studying two OSes that 
are at this point overall pretty similar.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/7/2011 12:07, Jim Henderson wrote:
> It's usually under "system tools", which is appropriate.

Funny enough, people will bitch that Window's CLI sucks, and at the same 
time show off how far Linux has managed to get away from needing a CLI by 
hiding it under "advanced system tools." :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/7/2011 15:04, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> No - that's just poor program design. Everybody has that... ;-)

Actually, I think it stems from programmers targeting in-house experts. 
Remember that Blender started as a custom program.

Ever see a level-builder tool for a game that wasn't expecting to release 
the level-builder tools? They're nightmares too, because it was easier to 
teach the 10 people using it what the hotkeys were than it was to design 
something usable.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/7/2011 12:08, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Or when my mom starts reading an error message to me - and after three
> words, I know what the next thing is and what to do next.

"Tell me what the window says, Dad."

"Well, there's a picture of an E with a circle around it, then it says 
"Internet explor.."

"No, no. Below that. In the big space."

"Oh. It says Done and Internet Protected Mode On"

"No, Dad. That's the status bar. See that great big white space between the 
two? What's in there?"

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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