Sometimes I find myself wondering the strangest things. For example... 
How much is a live dairy cow actually worth? As far as I'm aware, 
there's no easy way of actually answering such obscure questions.



In a similar way, if I wanted somebody to go to an empty field and just 
*build* me a house, what would that cost? Obviously this one varies 
wildly depending on exactly what I want them to build, what 
infrastructure is already in place, etc. But let's take the astronomer's 
perspective: how many digits does the price tag have in it? (Assuming I 
want them to build a normal-sized house that isn't made of sure 
zirconium or anything weird like that.)




installed in my house. Which, when you consider the amount of metal 
involved, to say nothing of the quantity of wood, the carpentry, the 
hand-made, hand-voiced, hand-tuned pipework, and the custom design... In 
short, considering the amount of materials, labour and specialist skills 
involved, six grand seems pretty darn /cheap/!

Obviously we're not talking about an organ to rival Westminster Abbey. 
Actually, something more on the scale of this:

http://tinyurl.com/684mhku

Even so, if you think about what it would even cost just to make a 
/cabinet/ like that...



Potato batteries. OK, how the /hell/ can that possibly work? I mean, 
seriously. Lemon batteries work because lemons are filled with lemon 
juice, one of the most acidic foodstuffs known to Man. But potatoes? 
They hardly contain any liquid at all, and (if taste is anything to go 
by) it's not even /slightly/ acidic. Any yet, apparently it can generate 
an electrical potential. How?!



Are fungi poisonous on purpose, or is it just a side-effect of their 
unusual body chemistry?

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Potato batteries. OK, how the /hell/ can that possibly work? I mean, 
> seriously. Lemon batteries work because lemons are filled with lemon 
> juice, one of the most acidic foodstuffs known to Man. But potatoes? 
> They hardly contain any liquid at all, and (if taste is anything to go 
> by) it's not even /slightly/ acidic. Any yet, apparently it can generate 
> an electrical potential. How?!

  Ever heard of google? Or wikipedia?

  "The energy for the battery does not come from the lemon or potato,
  but rather the chemical change in the zinc (or other metal). The
  zinc is oxidized inside the lemon, exchanging some of its electrons
  in order to reach a lower energy state, and the energy released
  provides the power. The lemon or potato merely provides an environment
  where this can happen, but they are not used up in the process.

  In current practice, zinc is produced by electrowinning of zinc
  sulfate or pyrometallurgic reduction of zinc with carbon. The energy
  produced originates from this source."

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 9/14/2011 6:24 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Are fungi poisonous on purpose, or is it just a side-effect of their
> unusual body chemistry?

Nothing is "poisonous on purpose", everything is a side-effect of 
different body chemistry. It just happens that, in some cases, those 
side effects make them a lot bloody harder for other things to eat. In 
the case of Fungi, however, it may also lend itself to death near the 
fungi, and this more nutrients, or it might have a similar effect on 
other fungi, which are in competition, and just, by coincidence, happen 
to effect humans, and animals. Most often, the effected species are 
insects. Thus, anything that, for example, has a nervous system, is 
likely to have the unfortunate coincidence of also being harmed by 
something that originally only was lethal to insects.

As Darwin said, "No adaptation is ever for the explicit benefit, or 
harm, of another species. It can only benefit the species that has it, 
any effect it has on other species is happenstance."

Post a reply to this message

On 15/09/2011 03:38 AM, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 9/14/2011 6:24 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> Are fungi poisonous on purpose, or is it just a side-effect of their
>> unusual body chemistry?
>
> Nothing is "poisonous on purpose", everything is a side-effect of
> different body chemistry. It just happens that, in some cases, those
> side effects make them a lot bloody harder for other things to eat.

OK, but consider this: The venom of the Black Widow spider is "designed" 
to be lethal to insects - and indeed it is. To mammals, it's harmless. 
It has no effect on dogs, cats, mice... oh, but by freak coincidence, it 
happens to be deadly to humans. How unlikely is that?

Point being, humans aren't the target. It just happens to work on them. 
Insects are the target.

> In
> the case of Fungi, however, it may also lend itself to death near the
> fungi, and this more nutrients, or it might have a similar effect on
> other fungi, which are in competition, and just, by coincidence, happen
> to effect humans, and animals. Most often, the effected species are
> insects. Thus, anything that, for example, has a nervous system, is
> likely to have the unfortunate coincidence of also being harmed by
> something that originally only was lethal to insects.

You're aware that insects have an utterly different nervous system to 
mammals, right?

For example, permethrin is a lethal fast-acting nerve toxin... to 
insects. To mammals it's almost completely harmless. (Except cats, 
randomly.)

> As Darwin said, "No adaptation is ever for the explicit benefit, or
> harm, of another species. It can only benefit the species that has it,
> any effect it has on other species is happenstance."

Well, yes, to a degree that's true. It's also clear that, for example, 
snake venom is "obviously" designed to kill the things that snakes eat. 
I'm just wondering whether fungi deliberately manufacture substances for 
no other reason than to prevent them being eaten, or whether the stuff 
that makes them so poisonous is just a normal part of their internal 
chemistry.

Post a reply to this message

On 14/09/2011 07:49 PM, Warp wrote:
> Invisible<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> Potato batteries. OK, how the /hell/ can that possibly work? I mean,
>> seriously. Lemon batteries work because lemons are filled with lemon
>> juice, one of the most acidic foodstuffs known to Man. But potatoes?
>> They hardly contain any liquid at all, and (if taste is anything to go
>> by) it's not even /slightly/ acidic. Any yet, apparently it can generate
>> an electrical potential. How?!
>
>    Ever heard of google? Or wikipedia?

What, you don't think I didn't try that already?

>    "The energy for the battery does not come from the lemon or potato,
>    but rather the chemical change in the zinc (or other metal).

>    The lemon or potato merely provides an environment
>    where this can happen, but they are not used up in the process.
>
>    In current practice, zinc is produced by electrowinning of zinc
>    sulfate or pyrometallurgic reduction of zinc with carbon. The energy
>    produced originates from this source."

 From that description, it sounds like zinc itself contains energy. 
Which raises a few questions:

1. Why do you need a fruit at all? Why can't you just extract the energy 
from the zinc?

2. Why does the other electrode need to be copper? If the energy comes 
from the zinc, surely *any* metal will do?

3. Why does using a potato work, but using a glass of water doesn't?

More questions than answers...

Post a reply to this message

On 14/09/2011 02:24 PM, Invisible wrote:

> Potato batteries. OK, how the /hell/ can that possibly work?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_potato_museums

Yes, you read that correctly. Wikipedia has a list of "museums about 
potatoes". WTF?

Post a reply to this message

On 15/09/2011 9:24 AM, Invisible wrote:
> I'm just wondering whether fungi deliberately manufacture substances for
> no other reason than to prevent them being eaten,

Do you believe in a god?

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Le 15/09/2011 11:32, Stephen a écrit :
> On 15/09/2011 9:24 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> I'm just wondering whether fungi deliberately manufacture substances for
>> no other reason than to prevent them being eaten,
> 
> Do you believe in a god?
> 
Yes. Mamma always told me to believe in me.

Post a reply to this message

Le 15/09/2011 11:09, Invisible a écrit :
> From that description, it sounds like zinc itself contains energy. Which
> raises a few questions:
> 
> 1. Why do you need a fruit at all? Why can't you just extract the energy
> from the zinc?
> 

Please go to a chemistry class about oxydo-reduction.


> 2. Why does the other electrode need to be copper? If the energy comes
> from the zinc, surely *any* metal will do?

Yep, as long as it has a different value for Redox-potential than zinc.
The tension will also be different. But using something not copper means
that you will also have more junctions to take into account (especially
if your lines are still made of copper).

> 
> 3. Why does using a potato work, but using a glass of water doesn't?

It might be related to the speed of oxydation of zinc: the surface get
quickly covered in a glass of water (if not already in the air) and it
isolate the core.
Inside a potato, the mechanical insertion might strips the surface of
its oxyd and then it may protect it from free oxygen.


> 
> More questions than answers...


-- 
Software is like dirt - it costs time and money to change it and move it
around.

Just because you can't see it, it doesn't weigh anything,
and you can't drill a hole in it and stick a rivet into it doesn't mean
it's free.

Post a reply to this message

On 15/09/2011 10:32 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 15/09/2011 9:24 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> I'm just wondering whether fungi deliberately manufacture substances for
>> no other reason than to prevent them being eaten,
>
> Do you believe in a god?

*sigh*

OK, well if you want to split hairs...

I'm just wondering whether the fact that many fungi are poisonous to 
large mammals is positively selected for, or a neutral trait.

(Which is /obviously/ what I asked in the first place, to anybody who 
actually understands how evolution works.)

The tea tree manufactures caffeine for no reason other than to control 
pests. It is of no "use" to the plant itself, it's just poisonous to 
certain insects that try to eat the plant. If there were no insects, the 
tree wouldn't need to make caffeine at all. This is "deliberate toxicity".

Other substances, however, are manufactured as part of an organism's 
internal metabolic processes. As hormones, as intermediate compounds, as 
storage, whatever. A few of these just happen to be toxic to other 
species. This is "accidental toxicity".

None of this is intended to imply /actual concious intent/. It's just a 
figure of speech. Sheesh...

Post a reply to this message