Every now and then, Wikipedia throws up something utterly baffling. 
Today, it gave me this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sedlec_Ossuary_chandelier.JPG

I don't... OK, wow. Just wow.

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Every now and then, Wikipedia throws up something utterly baffling.
> Today, it gave me this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sedlec_Ossuary_chandelier.JPG
>
> I don't... OK, wow. Just wow.

Generally speaking, I find it rather macabre. As a dedicated punster, however, I
can appreciate that it has humerus aspects as well.

Best Regards,
Mike C.

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> Generally speaking, I find it rather macabre.

Hell yes! o_O

> As a dedicated punster, however, I
> can appreciate that it has humerus aspects as well.

I can't believe you just did that. >_<

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 7/14/2011 7:51, Invisible wrote:
> I don't... OK, wow. Just wow.

It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place 
is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 07/14/2011 02:09 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Generally speaking, I find it rather macabre.
>
> Hell yes! o_O
>
>> As a dedicated punster, however, I
>> can appreciate that it has humerus aspects as well.
>
> I can't believe you just did that. >_<
>
make no bones about it ... i agree!
yeah ok ... thud

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place 
> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.

  Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 15/07/2011 06:54 AM, Warp wrote:

>    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?

In addition to being just creepy.

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On 07/15/2011 02:54 AM, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>
>    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?
>
would much rather have a bit of respect while alive ... who cares what 
people think of my bones when I'm gone ;-)

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Jim Holsenback <nom### [at] nomailcom> wrote:
> On 07/15/2011 02:54 AM, Warp wrote:
> > Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
> >> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
> >> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
> >
> >    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?
> >
> would much rather have a bit of respect while alive ... who cares what 
> people think of my bones when I'm gone ;-)

  Of course the deceased doesn't care anymore what happens to his body,
but it's not a question of that. *Other people* care what is done to
deceased people's bodies, and that shouldn't be underestimated. It's a
deeply rooted psychological and cultural thing.

  Just as an absolutely extreme example, imagine if some people played
football with a decapitated baby's head. Everybody would unanimously agree
that would be completely sick and horrendous. The argument "who cares, the
baby certainly doesn't, it's dead" would not help; on the contrary, it would
make the whole thing even worse, if that's even possible.

  Now, how is using a person's bones to decorate a church any less sick?
If you think about it, there isn't all that much of a difference, really.

  There's a certain amount of decency and respect that we should maintain
towards deceased people's remains, just as a cultural and psychological
thing.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 15/07/2011 11:11 AM, Warp wrote:

>    There's a certain amount of decency and respect that we should maintain
> towards deceased people's remains, just as a cultural and psychological
> thing.

I think the whole thing is creepy as hell. On the other hand, what is 
considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by 
culture. I'm told there are places where it is traditional to eat the 
flesh of the deceased as a mark of respect, and to not do so would be a 
great dishonour. It makes no sense to me, but then I'm not from that 
culture...

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On 07/15/2011 07:33 AM, Invisible wrote:
> On 15/07/2011 11:11 AM, Warp wrote:
>
>> There's a certain amount of decency and respect that we should maintain
>> towards deceased people's remains, just as a cultural and psychological
>> thing.
>
> I think the whole thing is creepy as hell. On the other hand, what is
> considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by
> culture. I'm told there are places where it is traditional to eat the
> flesh of the deceased as a mark of respect, and to not do so would be a
> great dishonour. It makes no sense to me, but then I'm not from that
> culture...

Oh hey ... don't get me wrong, no disrespect intended towards any 
cultures death rituals in any way shape or form. But really since it's 
only a shell, I just have a tough time wrapping my head around all the 
fuss some of these rituals entail. LOL ... have any of you been to a 
full blown Irish wake? Not witnessed this example personally, but I've 
heard tell of propping up the open coffin in the corner whilst the rest 
proceed to get blasted. BTW: no slam intended with my choice of example 
... there just might been a drop or two of Irish blood in these old 
veins ;-)

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Le 2011-07-15 01:54, Warp a écrit :
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>
>    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?
>
Different cultures have different traditions, I guess.

For example, when visiting Austria, I was quite surprised by the choices 
of sculptures people used to put on tombstones.  Instead of showing the 
dead at their best, there were multitudes or old, sickly, and frail 
people, skulls with snakes crawling in and out of the bones, etc...  It 
looked like what you'd find in a cartoon depiction of Dracula's castle, 
or a death metal album cover.

-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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Jim Holsenback <nom### [at] nomailcom> wrote:
> On 07/15/2011 07:33 AM, Invisible wrote:
> > On 15/07/2011 11:11 AM, Warp wrote:
> >
> >> There's a certain amount of decency and respect that we should maintain
> >> towards deceased people's remains, just as a cultural and psychological
> >> thing.
> >
> > I think the whole thing is creepy as hell. On the other hand, what is
> > considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by
> > culture. I'm told there are places where it is traditional to eat the
> > flesh of the deceased as a mark of respect, and to not do so would be a
> > great dishonour. It makes no sense to me, but then I'm not from that
> > culture...
>
> Oh hey ... don't get me wrong, no disrespect intended towards any
> cultures death rituals in any way shape or form. But really since it's
> only a shell, I just have a tough time wrapping my head around all the
> fuss some of these rituals entail. LOL ... have any of you been to a
> full blown Irish wake? Not witnessed this example personally, but I've
> heard tell of propping up the open coffin in the corner whilst the rest
> proceed to get blasted. BTW: no slam intended with my choice of example
> ... there just might been a drop or two of Irish blood in these old
> veins ;-)

My own personal ethnic background (which is not something I focus on much at all
in terms of my own self-concept) happens to be 50% Polish in two seperate
quarters. I always hear the follwing joke at least once at every wedding or
funeral:

(SILLY ETHNIC HUMOR WARNING: If it bothers you, turn away now.)

Q: What's the difference between a Polish wedding and a Polish Funeral?
A: One less drunk.

My Irish friends tell me we stole that joke from them.

May you be in Heaven a full three rounds before the Devil knows you've eaten
your last pierogi,

Mike C.

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On 7/14/2011 22:54, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>
>    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?

You mean as a tourist, or as someone constructing the place?

I would imagine since it's the monks doing it to other monks, they don't 
think it's disrespectful.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 7/15/2011 3:11, Warp wrote:
>    Now, how is using a person's bones to decorate a church any less sick?

I'd say because it's a church. There's an actual firm belief you're 
somewhere else. And the monks dedicated their lives to the church.

I think it's hard to be disrespectful if the dead person wanted you to do 
that. Is it more or less disrespectful than donating your organs for 
transplants?  The monks knew it would happen, probably asked for it, 
possibly even indicated what part of the church they wanted to be decorating 
for the rest of eternity. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 15-7-2011 7:54, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>
>    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?

I don't think it is. As others have remarked, different cultures have 
different ideas about these things.
I think the monks would see it in the same light as I would think about 
leaving my body to science. But even here that meets with various 
responses. Most of the staff, including the people that would prepare 
and dissect my body, think they would honour my last request, some 
however are dead against it.
In 'Stiff' that funny book by the incomparable Mary Roach, she tells 
that there is a university in Italy where they have a display of all the 
heads of the former heads of the anatomy department. That would probably 
match this example in creepiness for many here. Yet, I think it is a 
great custom, to keep the former heads 'alive'. Just as making a 
chandelier from bones of your former congregation members* keeps them 
with you all the time.
Besides, if they hadn't done that, the bones would now be gone. (One 
thing is certain however, these people did not believe in the rapture, 
as it would take some time to find your own bones. Of course they 
didn't, the concept was not invented yet, but that is another story.)

*) from the description in wiki I understand that the bones are not all 
from monks.

-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On the other hand, what is 
> considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by 
> culture.

  That's true, but this is Italy we are talking about, not some exotic
niche culture in some isolated place. In western European societies there
are certain norms and standards with respect to deceased people's remains
(which are, in fact, largely shared by most of the rest of the world as
well), and it can be generally assumed that if these standards are not
followed, it's considered abhorrent.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> I think it's hard to be disrespectful if the dead person wanted you to do 
> that. Is it more or less disrespectful than donating your organs for 
> transplants?  The monks knew it would happen, probably asked for it, 
> possibly even indicated what part of the church they wanted to be decorating 
> for the rest of eternity. :-)

  If I say "when I die I want my corpse to be displayed in the central square
of my town", I don't think I would get that. Some decency standards still
apply regardless of what the person himself wants.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Francois Labreque <fla### [at] videotronca> wrote:
> Le 2011-07-15 01:54, Warp a écrit :
> > Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
> >> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
> >> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
> >
> >    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?
> >
> Different cultures have different traditions, I guess.

  We are talking about Italy here, not an isolated exotic culture somewhere.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> (One 
> thing is certain however, these people did not believe in the rapture, 
> as it would take some time to find your own bones. Of course they 
> didn't, the concept was not invented yet, but that is another story.)

  That's a caricature of the rapture hypothesis (although, AFAIK, even some
Christians have a similar notion, even though it doesn't make any sense;
after all, your body will turn into dust, and graves are reused after a
certain time, so after a long time there really isn't anything left to
speak of.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 16/07/2011 07:00 AM, Warp wrote:
> Invisible<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> On the other hand, what is
>> considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by
>> culture.
>
>    That's true, but this is Italy we are talking about, not some exotic
> niche culture in some isolated place.

Granted. (Although I thought the details said Czechoslovakia, not 
Italy...) It still seems pretty weird to me.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 16-7-2011 8:03, Warp wrote:
> Francois Labreque<fla### [at] videotronca>  wrote:
>> Le 2011-07-15 01:54, Warp a écrit :
>>> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>   wrote:
>>>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
>>>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>>>
>>>     Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?
>>>
>> Different cultures have different traditions, I guess.
>
>    We are talking about Italy here, not an isolated exotic culture somewhere.
>

Indeed we are talking Italy here. What makes you think that 19th century 
Italians did think the same as a Finish guy in the 21st century? Other 
than assuming your point of view is a general standard for civilized 
people because everybody you know thinks like you.

I don't mean that unfriendly. Most people, including myself, assume that 
their own view is shared by almost every well educated person. But, as I 
said, that is because almost everybody we know is from our own culture. 
I know a couple of people the age of my parents that have remarked that 
somewhere in the 60s they suddenly discovered that there lived a 
sizeable amount of protestants in the Netherlands. I.e. the Roman 
Catholics discovered that, the protestants found out about the Roman 
Catholics.

BTW this was also why I remarked about the heads of heads of department. 
That was also Italy. A tradition (IIRC) older than this chandelier.
I assumed you would be shocked if you found out that in Austin Texas 
they had the stuffed head of Dijkstra on display. (I would only be 
surprised). Apparently there are indeed different cultures in the 
western world.

-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Indeed we are talking Italy here. What makes you think that 19th century 
> Italians did think the same as a Finish guy in the 21st century? Other 
> than assuming your point of view is a general standard for civilized 
> people because everybody you know thinks like you.

  I don't think 19th century Italians thought like 21st century Finns.
I think 19th century Italians had a pretty catholic culture, seeing that
catholicism has existed there for over a millenia, and I have never heard
decorating churches with dead bodies was part of catholic tradition. (Of
course not being a catholic myself, I could be wrong.)

> I assumed you would be shocked if you found out that in Austin Texas 
> they had the stuffed head of Dijkstra on display. (I would only be 
> surprised). Apparently there are indeed different cultures in the 
> western world.

  Well, what do you expect from a backwoods southern hillbilly state? ;)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 16-7-2011 15:30, Warp wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> Indeed we are talking Italy here. What makes you think that 19th century
>> Italians did think the same as a Finish guy in the 21st century? Other
>> than assuming your point of view is a general standard for civilized
>> people because everybody you know thinks like you.
>
>    I don't think 19th century Italians thought like 21st century Finns.
> I think 19th century Italians had a pretty catholic culture, seeing that
> catholicism has existed there for over a millenia, and I have never heard
> decorating churches with dead bodies was part of catholic tradition. (Of
> course not being a catholic myself, I could be wrong.)

I don't think this is about Catholicism, it is about a subculture at a 
certain place at a certain time. Just as wearing a headscarf or female 
genital mutilation or honour killings are not part of Islam, just of 
certain cultures that also happen to be (mostly) Islamic. Which does not 
mean that within those cultures there are people who would claim different.

>> I assumed you would be shocked if you found out that in Austin Texas
>> they had the stuffed head of Dijkstra on display. (I would only be
>> surprised). Apparently there are indeed different cultures in the
>> western world.
>
>    Well, what do you expect from a backwoods southern hillbilly state? ;)

I would have used the name of one of your professors at your university, 
had I known them and if they were deceased, but I think you got that.

-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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On 7/16/2011 0:39, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Granted. (Although I thought the details said Czechoslovakia, not Italy...)

There's one just like it in Rome, and I assumed that was the one pictured.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 7/15/2011 23:03, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> I think it's hard to be disrespectful if the dead person wanted you to do
>> that. Is it more or less disrespectful than donating your organs for
>> transplants?  The monks knew it would happen, probably asked for it,
>> possibly even indicated what part of the church they wanted to be decorating
>> for the rest of eternity. :-)
>
>    If I say "when I die I want my corpse to be displayed in the central square
> of my town", I don't think I would get that. Some decency standards still
> apply regardless of what the person himself wants.

Yeah, but this is a monastery, not an entire town. It's like your family 
honoring your request, rather than an entire city.

Besides, there's always Lynchbany.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 7/15/2011 23:07, Warp wrote:
> so after a long time there really isn't anything left to
> speak of.)

I think the word you're looking for is "miracle". ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 07/16/2011 10:30 AM, Warp wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> Indeed we are talking Italy here. What makes you think that 19th century
>> Italians did think the same as a Finish guy in the 21st century? Other
>> than assuming your point of view is a general standard for civilized
>> people because everybody you know thinks like you.
>
>    I don't think 19th century Italians thought like 21st century Finns.
> I think 19th century Italians had a pretty catholic culture, seeing that
> catholicism has existed there for over a millenia, and I have never heard
> decorating churches with dead bodies was part of catholic tradition. (Of
> course not being a catholic myself, I could be wrong.)
>
>> I assumed you would be shocked if you found out that in Austin Texas
>> they had the stuffed head of Dijkstra on display. (I would only be
>> surprised). Apparently there are indeed different cultures in the
>> western world.
>
>    Well, what do you expect from a backwoods southern hillbilly state? ;)
>

LOL ... Haven't you heard "Don't mess with Texas" before ... heck ya 
city slicker them's fightin' words! Austin Texas is too far west to be 
hillbilly them's folks are jest cowboyz ...  The hillbillies they r 
bein' in Tennessee and Kentucky ... shucks get it right ;-)

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On 7/16/2011 11:22, Jim Holsenback wrote:
> The hillbillies they r bein' in Tennessee
> and Kentucky ... shucks get it right ;-)

In particular, where the hills are, you see. Hence the name. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 7/15/2011 23:03, Warp wrote:
> Francois Labreque<fla### [at] videotronca>  wrote:
>> Le 2011-07-15 01:54, Warp a �crit :
>>> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>   wrote:
>>>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whol
e place
>>>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>>>
>>>     Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?
>>>
>> Different cultures have different traditions, I guess.
>
>    We are talking about Italy here, not an isolated exotic culture some
where.

Actually, we're talking about the inside of one specific monastery. One 
which is decorated with the bones of dead monks. It's not like anyone 
decorating the ceiling *or* looking at the ceiling is going to be surpris
ed 
at what they see.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Actually, we're talking about the inside of one specific monastery. One 
> which is decorated with the bones of dead monks. It's not like anyone 
> decorating the ceiling *or* looking at the ceiling is going to be surprised 
> at what they see.

  I just find it curious that there isn't eg. any law there that forbids
such a macabre practice (even back then, and especially today).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> On 7/15/2011 23:07, Warp wrote:
> > so after a long time there really isn't anything left to
> > speak of.)

> I think the word you're looking for is "miracle". ;-)

  Yes, but the actual details vary from denomination to denomination.
AFAIK the most common interpretation is that it's not the physical body
you had that is raptured, but a new "spiritual" body of sorts. After all,
it makes little sense to resurrect the old body because in most cases it
will have completely decomposed until there's nothing left of the original.
(After a sufficiently long time all of your the molecules in your body will
have been consumed by bacteria and fungi, scattered in the soil, which is
then scattered even more by rainwater and such, consumed by plants, which
is then consumed by animals, and so on.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 07/14/2011 11:51 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Every now and then, Wikipedia throws up something utterly baffling.
> Today, it gave me this:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sedlec_Ossuary_chandelier.JPG
>
> I don't... OK, wow. Just wow.

and interesting addition to the discussion?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14176471

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On 7/17/2011 6:57, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> Actually, we're talking about the inside of one specific monastery. One
>> which is decorated with the bones of dead monks. It's not like anyone
>> decorating the ceiling *or* looking at the ceiling is going to be surprised
>> at what they see.
>
>    I just find it curious that there isn't eg. any law there that forbids
> such a macabre practice (even back then, and especially today).

Sure. In the USA, it would be a religious practice, and therefore outside of 
what people would be allowed to legislate. I honestly don't know why the 
monks thought it reasonable or desirable to do this, really.  I'll have to 
look into that next time I see something like this.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 17-7-2011 15:57, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> Actually, we're talking about the inside of one specific monastery. One
>> which is decorated with the bones of dead monks. It's not like anyone
>> decorating the ceiling *or* looking at the ceiling is going to be surprised
>> at what they see.
>
>    I just find it curious that there isn't eg. any law there that forbids
> such a macabre practice (even back then, and especially today).

Really depends on what you think is macabre. Strangely enough, I don't 
think it is in this context.



-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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Le 17/07/2011 23:44, Darren New nous fit lire :
> On 7/17/2011 6:57, Warp wrote:
>> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>>> Actually, we're talking about the inside of one specific monastery. One
>>> which is decorated with the bones of dead monks. It's not like anyone
>>> decorating the ceiling *or* looking at the ceiling is going to be
>>> surprised
>>> at what they see.
>>
>>    I just find it curious that there isn't eg. any law there that forbids
>> such a macabre practice (even back then, and especially today).
> 
> Sure. In the USA, it would be a religious practice, and therefore
> outside of what people would be allowed to legislate. I honestly don't
> know why the monks thought it reasonable or desirable to do this,
> really.  I'll have to look into that next time I see something like this.
> 
I'd like to remind the lovely audience about the appearance of Vanitas
in the painting of 16 & 17th centuries, also common in other periods.

From the religious (christian/catholic) point of view, the soul is the
only eternal "thing". The corpse and its remains are not. Denying the
death of the corpse (such as forbidding its representation) would be a
bigger trouble than reminding it to everyone in the monastery.

On the same way as Vanitas, Ubi Sunt (qui ante nos fuerunt) are also
common poetry related to the shortness of life.

Moreover, usually there is 2 parts in a monastery: one only for the
monks and one shared with the male adults from the civil society.
(Female or children in a male monastery would not be tolerated unless a
responsible civil male do guard them, and even... well, depends on the
abbot and the rule of the order)

Which part of the monastery were the bones in ?

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Sure. In the USA, it would be a religious practice, and therefore outside of 
> what people would be allowed to legislate.

  That sounds like anything is allowed in the USA as long as it's religious
practice. I find it hard to believe that's the case.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 7/17/2011 23:40, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> Sure. In the USA, it would be a religious practice, and therefore outside of
>> what people would be allowed to legislate.
>
>    That sounds like anything is allowed in the USA as long as it's religious
> practice. I find it hard to believe that's the case.

No. The rule is basically that congress can't promote religion or restrict 
it. So if you want to bury sanitary bones in the attic, and that's your 
religion, you get to do that. They can't say "your burial customs are 
offensive." They'd actually have to cite some other law that has nothing to 
do with religion, like health regulations. Otherwise, the whole "you're 
offensive for putting a crucifix instead of a cross on your building" 
problem starts coming up.  Obviously they wouldn't be regulating religion if 
your religion says you're allowed to shoot people on the street, because the 
law about not shooting people has nothing to do with religion.

There are, for example, religions whose ceremonies include smoking 
hallucinogenic drugs that are illegal for anyone not of that religion. That 
comes up in court every once in a while, but last I heard it's still legal.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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Le 2011/07/16 02:00, Warp a écrit :
> Invisible<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> On the other hand, what is
>> considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by
>> culture.
>
>    That's true, but this is Italy we are talking about, not some exotic
> niche culture in some isolated place. In western European societies there
> are certain norms and standards with respect to deceased people's remains
> (which are, in fact, largely shared by most of the rest of the world as
> well), and it can be generally assumed that if these standards are not
> followed, it's considered abhorrent.
>

True, but those "standards" DID change a LOT over time, from regions to 
regions, and from common peoples, clergy and nobility.

There is also the fact that, over time, cemetaries become overcrowded, 
can't be extended and new can't be established. That's particularly true 
in Europe. They NEED to remove older remains from time to time. The 
removed remains are often placed in some ossuaries or catacombs.

In some religious orders, it's considered an honour to have his body 
momified and placed in niches. In others, that honour is having his 
remains incorporated in some religious construction.
It's strange, disturbing, for most of us, but it's perfectly normal for 
those conserned.



Alain

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Le 2011/07/17 17:44, Darren New a écrit :
> On 7/17/2011 6:57, Warp wrote:
>> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>>> Actually, we're talking about the inside of one specific monastery. One
>>> which is decorated with the bones of dead monks. It's not like anyone
>>> decorating the ceiling *or* looking at the ceiling is going to be
>>> surprised
>>> at what they see.
>>
>> I just find it curious that there isn't eg. any law there that forbids
>> such a macabre practice (even back then, and especially today).
>
> Sure. In the USA, it would be a religious practice, and therefore
> outside of what people would be allowed to legislate. I honestly don't
> know why the monks thought it reasonable or desirable to do this,
> really. I'll have to look into that next time I see something like this.
>

A very probable reason: For several centuries, they did NOT have any 
reliable access to a cemetary. They where probably required, by law or 
regulation, to only use a single, small, cemetary within the monastry 
confine. That cemetary got filled up.

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