If you have been following any of the crazy things that are happening
in the United States, one of the latest fads is this prophecy that the
end of the world, as told by the bible, is going to happen 21st of this
month, ie. two weeks from now. The people behind this "prophecy" are so
serious about it that it's not confined to the internet, but in the US
there are big billboards announcing it, not to talk about TV and other
media. They have made it a rather big thing. (I'm sure you'll find this
on google if you didn't know about it already.)

  I'll be taking bets on how they will explain it away when it will not
happen. (I suppose it will go something along the lines of "God, in his
infinite mercy, took pity on us and has given us more time to repent
before the rapture really happens".)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 06/05/2011 15:47, Warp wrote:

>    I'll be taking bets on how they will explain it away when it will not
> happen.

How many times have people claimed that the world is days away from 
ending? I lose count...

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On 06/05/2011 15:47, Warp wrote:

> >    I'll be taking bets on how they will explain it away when it will not
> > happen.

> How many times have people claimed that the world is days away from 
> ending? I lose count...

  Yeah, but this one must be real because they used math to calculate the
day.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

>> How many times have people claimed that the world is days away from
>> ending? I lose count...
>
>    Yeah, but this one must be real because they used math to calculate the
> day.

Oh, well, in that case...

Required XKCD quote: http://xkcd.com/704/

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On 5/6/2011 9:47 AM, Warp wrote:
>    If you have been following any of the crazy things that are happening
> in the United States, one of the latest fads is this prophecy that the
> end of the world, as told by the bible, is going to happen 21st of this
> month, ie. two weeks from now. The people behind this "prophecy" are so

Ah, dang. I better make sure my insurance is paid up.


-- 
~Mike

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no way, dude!  They are 1 year off according to the ancient Maya... :p

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On 5/6/2011 7:47, Warp wrote:
>    I'll be taking bets on how they will explain it away when it will not
> happen.

The same way as the other dozens of times they did something like this. I 
remember at least four in my lifetime alone.

 > Yeah, but this one must be real because they used math to calculate the
day.

In spite of passages in the Bible specifically saying "No man will know the 
time of the end" or some such.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

I'm still hoping to find someone to option their house to me for a nominal 
sum. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On 06/05/2011 5:58 PM, Darren New wrote:
> The same way as the other dozens of times they did something like this.
> I remember at least four in my lifetime alone.

The world ended in march 1982 IIRC when all the planets were on the same 
side of the sun.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 5/6/2011 7:47 AM, Warp wrote:
>    If you have been following any of the crazy things that are happening
> in the United States, one of the latest fads is this prophecy that the
> end of the world, as told by the bible, is going to happen 21st of this
> month, ie. two weeks from now. The people behind this "prophecy" are so
> serious about it that it's not confined to the internet, but in the US
> there are big billboards announcing it, not to talk about TV and other
> media. They have made it a rather big thing. (I'm sure you'll find this
> on google if you didn't know about it already.)
>
>    I'll be taking bets on how they will explain it away when it will not
> happen. (I suppose it will go something along the lines of "God, in his
> infinite mercy, took pity on us and has given us more time to repent
> before the rapture really happens".)
>
I think I like, sort of, the Assassin's Creed version of the event. Its 
the point where we finally sell ourselves permanently to the nut cases, 
allowing them to do all our thinking for us, or throw them out of power 
once and for all. So.. when are the elections coming? I don't think it 
was as soon as the 21st of this month...

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 06 May 2011 10:47:40 -0400, Warp wrote:

> one of the latest fads is this prophecy that the end of the world, as
> told by the bible, is going to happen 21st of this month,

Hmmm, guess I don't need to find a new job after all. ;)

Since my new social security card won't get here until the 20th (at the 
latest), and I need that to complete the paperwork to be hired by 
someone, that's just 1 workday.

Maybe I can find someone selling a Bugatti for a few dollars since they 
won't be needing it any more. ;)

Jim

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On 5/6/2011 14:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Since my new social security card won't get here until the 20th

Why do you need a new social security card? You're in the USA, yes?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 06 May 2011 16:47:40 +0200, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:

>   If you have been following any of the crazy things that are happening
> in the United States, one of the latest fads is this prophecy that the
> end of the world, as told by the bible, is going to happen 21st of this
> month, ie. two weeks from now. The people behind this "prophecy" are so
> serious about it that it's not confined to the internet, but in the US
> there are big billboards announcing it, not to talk about TV and other
> media. They have made it a rather big thing. (I'm sure you'll find this
> on google if you didn't know about it already.)
>
>   I'll be taking bets on how they will explain it away when it will not
> happen. (I suppose it will go something along the lines of "God, in his
> infinite mercy, took pity on us and has given us more time to repent
> before the rapture really happens".)
>

"It's the end of the world as we know it"

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 06 May 2011 16:52:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 5/6/2011 14:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Since my new social security card won't get here until the 20th
> 
> Why do you need a new social security card? You're in the USA, yes?

Yes.  All the jobs I've had in the past, when it came time to do the 
paperwork, they wanted the SS card.  At least that's what I remember, but 
if anything, it's an excuse to take a couple of weeks and not make a 
hasty decision.  I don't need to rush, for once, I can take my time while 
not having to focus on job responsibilities.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Definitely not any of the following:
21 May 2011
2012

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

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http://ddig.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/harold-camping-a-fraud/

Is Harold camping making money out of this somehow?
He first claimed the end of the world in 1994.

Why are Christians listening to some-one that ignores scriptures Matt.  

24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the ang
els in  

heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

-- 

-Nekar Xenos-

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> I'm still hoping to find someone to option their house to me for a nominal 
> sum. :-)

  Yeah, why don't the people behind this "prophecy" put their money where
their mouth is: If they are so damn sure that the end is in two weeks, why
don't they give all their property or sell it for a nominal sum? It's not
like they will need it for anything, if it really happens.

  If they don't, that's a clear sign that they don't *really* believe it
will happen.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Fri, 06 May 2011 16:52:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> > On 5/6/2011 14:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
> >> Since my new social security card won't get here until the 20th
> > 
> > Why do you need a new social security card? You're in the USA, yes?

> Yes.  All the jobs I've had in the past, when it came time to do the 
> paperwork, they wanted the SS card.  At least that's what I remember, but 
> if anything, it's an excuse to take a couple of weeks and not make a 
> hasty decision.  I don't need to rush, for once, I can take my time while 
> not having to focus on job responsibilities.

  I think the point of the question was why do you need a *new* SS card.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Nekar Xenos <nek### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Why are Christians listening to some-one that ignores scriptures Matt.  
> 24:36 ???But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in  
> heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

  I can hand-wave it: He was talking to his listeners. Nobody living then
would know when the world will end. However, there are other passages which
suggest that in the end of times God will reveal more and more information.
After all, it says in the book of Daniel 12:4:

"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time
of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Le 2011/05/07 01:21, Jim Henderson a écrit :
> On Fri, 06 May 2011 16:52:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>
>> On 5/6/2011 14:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Since my new social security card won't get here until the 20th
>>
>> Why do you need a new social security card? You're in the USA, yes?
>
> Yes.  All the jobs I've had in the past, when it came time to do the
> paperwork, they wanted the SS card.  At least that's what I remember, but
> if anything, it's an excuse to take a couple of weeks and not make a
> hasty decision.  I don't need to rush, for once, I can take my time while
> not having to focus on job responsibilities.
>
> Jim

Ok, but are'nt those cards have a life long validity? They never expire. 
I mean, you get one, you keep it indefinitely and never need to replace 
it unless somewho you destroy or loose it.

Post a reply to this message

Le 2011/05/07 01:15, Nekar Xenos a écrit :
> On Fri, 06 May 2011 16:47:40 +0200, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>
>> If you have been following any of the crazy things that are happening
>> in the United States, one of the latest fads is this prophecy that the
>> end of the world, as told by the bible, is going to happen 21st of this
>> month, ie. two weeks from now. The people behind this "prophecy" are so
>> serious about it that it's not confined to the internet, but in the US
>> there are big billboards announcing it, not to talk about TV and other
>> media. They have made it a rather big thing. (I'm sure you'll find this
>> on google if you didn't know about it already.)
>>
>> I'll be taking bets on how they will explain it away when it will not
>> happen. (I suppose it will go something along the lines of "God, in his
>> infinite mercy, took pity on us and has given us more time to repent
>> before the rapture really happens".)
>>
>
> "It's the end of the world as we know it"
>
...and I feel fine :)

Post a reply to this message

On 5/6/2011 22:21, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Yes.  All the jobs I've had in the past, when it came time to do the
> paperwork, they wanted the SS card.

No, they want proof of permission to work in the USA. So you either need a 
SS card plus photo ID, or proof of citizenship. Get a passport instead. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On 5/7/2011 2:27, Warp wrote:
>    I can hand-wave it: He was talking to his listeners.

Very impressive.


-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

http://i.imgur.com/FrJq1.jpg

Actually, my primary gripe with all these people is they think this is a 
*good* thing. If you're crazy enough to believe the end of the world is 
good, I really don't want you in government, in the media, or anywhere else 
you might have some influence.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> http://i.imgur.com/FrJq1.jpg

> Actually, my primary gripe with all these people is they think this is a 
> *good* thing. If you're crazy enough to believe the end of the world is 
> good, I really don't want you in government, in the media, or anywhere else 
> you might have some influence.

  Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPd-SY6OhLY

  The death toll of the Japan earthquake is already 10000+ people and
with at least that many still missing (which means that the toll is only
going to raise). And that girl is simply ecstatic and overjoyed by this.

  "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things
and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things,
that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Am Sat, 07 May 2011 15:39:05 -0400 schrieb Warp:
> 
>   Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPd-SY6OhLY
> 
>   The death toll of the Japan earthquake is already 10000+ people and
> with at least that many still missing (which means that the toll is only
> going to raise). And that girl is simply ecstatic and overjoyed by this.
> 

Or trolling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9ImnZasEAQ

Not sure what would be worse though

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On 07/05/2011 7:48 PM, Darren New wrote:
> I really don't want you in government,

I don't want them parking outside my house.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 07/05/2011 8:39 PM, Warp wrote:
>    Reminds me of this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPd-SY6OhLY
>
She needs re-educating.
Or maybe just educating.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Sat, 07 May 2011 16:30:05 +0200, Alain <aze### [at] qwertyorg> wrote:

> Le 2011/05/07 01:15, Nekar Xenos a écrit :
>> On Fri, 06 May 2011 16:47:40 +0200, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:

>>
>>> If you have been following any of the crazy things that are happenin
g
>>> in the United States, one of the latest fads is this prophecy that t
he
>>> end of the world, as told by the bible, is going to happen 21st of t
his
>>> month, ie. two weeks from now. The people behind this "prophecy" are
 so
>>> serious about it that it's not confined to the internet, but in the 
US
>>> there are big billboards announcing it, not to talk about TV and oth
er
>>> media. They have made it a rather big thing. (I'm sure you'll find t
his
>>> on google if you didn't know about it already.)
>>>
>>> I'll be taking bets on how they will explain it away when it will no
t
>>> happen. (I suppose it will go something along the lines of "God, in 
his
>>> infinite mercy, took pity on us and has given us more time to repent

>>> before the rapture really happens".)
>>>
>>
>> "It's the end of the world as we know it"
>>
> ...and I feel fine :)

  All together now...

-- 

-Nekar Xenos-

Post a reply to this message

On 5/7/2011 7:29 AM, Alain wrote:
> Le 2011/05/07 01:21, Jim Henderson a écrit :
>> On Fri, 06 May 2011 16:52:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/6/2011 14:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> Since my new social security card won't get here until the 20th
>>>
>>> Why do you need a new social security card? You're in the USA, yes?
>>
>> Yes. All the jobs I've had in the past, when it came time to do the
>> paperwork, they wanted the SS card. At least that's what I remember, but
>> if anything, it's an excuse to take a couple of weeks and not make a
>> hasty decision. I don't need to rush, for once, I can take my time while
>> not having to focus on job responsibilities.
>>
>> Jim
>
> Ok, but are'nt those cards have a life long validity? They never expire.
> I mean, you get one, you keep it indefinitely and never need to replace
> it unless somewho you destroy or loose it.
Possible he lost it? Lot of places take photocopies of the stuff you 
provide, to have it on record that you actually gave a card, not just 
filled in some numbers.

Post a reply to this message

Stephen <mcavoys_at@aoldotcom> wrote:
> On 07/05/2011 7:48 PM, Darren New wrote:
> > I really don't want you in government,

> I don't want them parking outside my house.

  Be careful, or they'll play the victimization card: If someone makes
even the slightest suggestion that their right to shout their views should
perhaps be limited in some ways, they will immediately start shouting that
they are being discriminated against and that there's a nationwide attack
against christianity.

  (Never mind that if someone dares to make any such public display about
atheism, they will be outraged. They will be completely oblivious to the
obvious double standard.)

  Which got me thinking: Many christians in the United States like to
emphasize how 80 or 90 or whatever percent of the nation consists of
christians, while at the same time they behave like the vast majority
consists of godless sinful heathens who need to be evangelized and saved.
Double-think much?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> Possible he lost it? Lot of places take photocopies of the stuff you 
> provide, to have it on record that you actually gave a card, not just 
> filled in some numbers.

  It's interesting how different this is between countries.

  In Spain (I have lived there) every single citizens has the same type of
official identity card. AFAIK it's mandatory to have one and I think it's
at least in principle even mandatory to have it with you at all times at
least if you are away from your home town. (If the police demands to see
your identity card and you don't have it, it might cause some repercussions.)

  In Finland it's much more relaxed. There's no one single official identity
card. There is an identity card, but it's not mandatory. There are many other
forms of identity documents that are equally valid, including a driver's
license and a passport. (In other words, even if the only form of official
identification you own is a driver's license, it's enough. You don't need
anything else.)

  I lived many years without any unexpired official identification document.
(AFAIK this would be unthinkable in Spain.) Had to then get one for practical
reasons (you can't open bank accounts, get credit cards, etc. without such
an ID).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Sat, 07 May 2011 11:03:13 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 5/6/2011 22:21, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Yes.  All the jobs I've had in the past, when it came time to do the
>> paperwork, they wanted the SS card.
> 
> No, they want proof of permission to work in the USA. So you either need
> a SS card plus photo ID, or proof of citizenship. Get a passport
> instead. :-)

Passport is expired, renewal is something like $85.  SS card replacement 
is free. :)

Though I do have a certified copy of my birth certificate, too....

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 07 May 2011 10:29:33 -0400, Alain wrote:

> Ok, but are'nt those cards have a life long validity? They never expire.
> I mean, you get one, you keep it indefinitely and never need to replace
> it unless somewho you destroy or loose it.

Yes, they are - but I lost mine.  Hard to present if I can't find it. :)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 07 May 2011 05:21:07 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 May 2011 16:52:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> 
>> > On 5/6/2011 14:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> >> Since my new social security card won't get here until the 20th
>> > 
>> > Why do you need a new social security card? You're in the USA, yes?
> 
>> Yes.  All the jobs I've had in the past, when it came time to do the
>> paperwork, they wanted the SS card.  At least that's what I remember,
>> but if anything, it's an excuse to take a couple of weeks and not make
>> a hasty decision.  I don't need to rush, for once, I can take my time
>> while not having to focus on job responsibilities.
> 
>   I think the point of the question was why do you need a *new* SS card.

I lost my old one.  I suppose I should have said "replacement" rather 
than "new". :)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 07/05/2011 10:00 PM, Warp wrote:
>> I don't want them parking outside my house.
>    Be careful, or they'll play the victimization card: If someone makes
> even the slightest suggestion that their right to shout their views should
> perhaps be limited in some ways, they will immediately start shouting that
> they are being discriminated against and that there's a nationwide attack
> against christianity.
>

There is only one thing I can say and it's "Go forth and multiply".

>    (Never mind that if someone dares to make any such public display about
> atheism, they will be outraged. They will be completely oblivious to the
> obvious double standard.)
>

http://therationalviewpoint.blogspot.com/2010/11/atheism-bus-campaign.html

>    Which got me thinking: Many christians in the United States like to
> emphasize how 80 or 90 or whatever percent of the nation consists of
> christians, while at the same time they behave like the vast majority
> consists of godless sinful heathens who need to be evangelized and saved.
> Double-think much?

Don't think about religion, just take it on faith.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Florian Pesth <fpe### [at] gmxde> wrote:
> Am Sat, 07 May 2011 15:39:05 -0400 schrieb Warp:
> > 
> >   Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPd-SY6OhLY
> > 
> >   The death toll of the Japan earthquake is already 10000+ people and
> > with at least that many still missing (which means that the toll is only
> > going to raise). And that girl is simply ecstatic and overjoyed by this.
> > 

> Or trolling:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9ImnZasEAQ

> Not sure what would be worse though

  Even if it's a parody (rather then she just claiming so because of all
the backlash), the interesting thing is that most people don't see it as
parody because that kind of mentality is, in fact, plausible.

  Oftentimes it's difficult to distinguish parody from seriousness. For
example this is parody (relatively obvious, but many people still get
fooled): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi8q9jeyfeo

  This is not parody, even though it could very well be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 5/7/2011 14:08, Warp wrote:
>    I lived many years without any unexpired official identification document.

In the USA it's kind of interesting. Most places that need ID need "a 
government-issued ID."  Most people use a driver's license; but remember 
that we have at least 50 different kinds of drivers licenses, because 
driving rules are state rules, not federal rules. People in the military 
often use their military ID. And there's passports, but surprisingly few 
people actually have a passport. (I heard that less than half the people in 
*Congress* have a passport.)  Of course, you need a passport to get back 
into the country if you leave(*), so that means most people making our laws 
have never even vacationed in a different country.

"Social security" is basically a federal tax. It started out being *just* 
government guaranteed retirement benefits. Now, of course, the ID number is 
used for pretty much every financial identification, in spite of originally 
being guaranteed to only be used for social security.

But, basically, "social security number" means the ID number that associates 
the payer of taxes with the payments. So to work, you have to pay income 
taxes, and to prove you're allowed to work, you have to provide a social 
security number. So, you have to prove you're allowed to work, which 
involves proving you have a social security number (and hence a SSN card 
plus a photo ID) or proving you're a citizen (hence a passport or birth 
certificate).  Since it's possible to get a driver's license without having 
permission to work, just having ID isn't enough to work.

Other than that, there's very little need to have an "ID" as such. We don't 
even require IDs for voting. (Primarily because we had slaves for much 
longer than most modern civilized countries, and when the slaves got freed, 
none of them had IDs. We also don't have any sorts of tests (history, 
literacy, etc) for voting, for pretty much the same reasons.)

You need a driver's license to drive. You need a passport to pass ports. Of 
course, you also need a credit card to charge something, a prescription to 
get controlled drugs, etc. But you don't really need ID on a normal basis.

(*) Other than, in the past, Mexico and Canada. You'd still need ID, but not 
a passport.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On 5/7/2011 14:17, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Passport is expired, renewal is something like $85.  SS card replacement
> is free. :)

That's a fair reason. Personally, I feel better having a passport. ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On 5/7/2011 15:12, Warp wrote:
>    Oftentimes it's difficult to distinguish parody from seriousness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 07 May 2011 16:43:05 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 5/7/2011 14:17, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Passport is expired, renewal is something like $85.  SS card
>> replacement is free. :)
> 
> That's a fair reason. Personally, I feel better having a passport. ;-)

Oh, I do as well.  Once I've secured something our passports are getting 
renewed.

I found I needed to get my SS card replaced back in September (needed it 
for a drivers' license renewal), but the DMV could take a W2 form.  I 
needed my license to get the SS card replaced, and the passport was 
expired, so I was potentially in some trouble for letting too much go for 
too long.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 07 May 2011 16:42:14 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> We
> don't even require IDs for voting.

That's true in some states, but not in Utah.  In Utah they require an ID, 
and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that 
constitutes a poll tax or not.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 5/7/2011 16:48, Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's true in some states, but not in Utah.  In Utah they require an ID,
> and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that
> constitutes a poll tax or not.

Oh, I forgot to add, you can almost always get a government ID for free, or 
the government would have a hard time requiring you to have an ID to get 
various services. E.g., most anywhere you get a driver's license, you can go 
to get a non-driver ID using the same evidence you use to prove your ID.

So, in other words, the ID isn't to ID you. It's to prove you're allowed to 
do whatever the ID is allowing you to do, here. You never actually have to 
prove you are who you say you are, AFAIK. You only have to prove you have a 
right to get what you're after, and sometimes that involves providing some 
sort of ID that can be checked. If the police stop you just walking down the 
road, you don't have to prove who you are, even if they decide to arrest you 
for something.  (The whole "right to not incriminate yourself" is about as 
well supported as the "right to free speech" bit here, unlike many other of 
the supposedly involatile rights.)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 08/05/2011 12:42 AM, Darren New wrote:
> "Social security" is basically a federal tax. It started out being
> *just* government guaranteed retirement benefits. Now, of course, the ID
> number is used for pretty much every financial identification, in spite
> of originally being guaranteed to only be used for social security.

Interesting fact about SSN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#SSNs_invalidated_by_use_in_advertising

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Le 2011/05/07 17:08, Warp a écrit :
> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcablecom>  wrote:
>> Possible he lost it? Lot of places take photocopies of the stuff you
>> provide, to have it on record that you actually gave a card, not just
>> filled in some numbers.
>
>    It's interesting how different this is between countries.
>
>    In Spain (I have lived there) every single citizens has the same type of
> official identity card. AFAIK it's mandatory to have one and I think it's
> at least in principle even mandatory to have it with you at all times at
> least if you are away from your home town. (If the police demands to see
> your identity card and you don't have it, it might cause some repercussions.)
>
>    In Finland it's much more relaxed. There's no one single official identity
> card. There is an identity card, but it's not mandatory. There are many other
> forms of identity documents that are equally valid, including a driver's
> license and a passport. (In other words, even if the only form of official
> identification you own is a driver's license, it's enough. You don't need
> anything else.)
>
>    I lived many years without any unexpired official identification document.
> (AFAIK this would be unthinkable in Spain.) Had to then get one for practical
> reasons (you can't open bank accounts, get credit cards, etc. without such
> an ID).
>

In Canada, we also have Social Security cards. They only have your name 
and 3 x 3 digits.

Officialy, it's the only card you need and the only legal card. You need 
to write that number on your tax reports, and it should be the only 
place it's used.

In practice, almost nobody have the right to ask you that card, and it's 
not considered acceptable to prove your identity. If fact, a prospective 
employer don't realy have the right to ask for it, but it's tolerated as 
an established practice.
Other than that, nobody have any right to ask you to show it.

As we have provincialy managed universal health care, and that those 
cards now have a photo, it's the de facto universal identity card.
You can also use your driver license, that also have your photo.
Those are also the only ID that can legaly be asked and used as proof of 
your age.



Alain

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On Sat, 07 May 2011 17:23:31 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 5/7/2011 16:48, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's true in some states, but not in Utah.  In Utah they require an
>> ID, and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that
>> constitutes a poll tax or not.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to add, you can almost always get a government ID for free,
> or the government would have a hard time requiring you to have an ID to
> get various services. E.g., most anywhere you get a driver's license,
> you can go to get a non-driver ID using the same evidence you use to
> prove your ID.

Oh, sure - my stepson had a state-issued ID because he hadn't done 
drivers ed.  But I don't think it was free, there still was a cost 
involved.

> So, in other words, the ID isn't to ID you. It's to prove you're allowed
> to do whatever the ID is allowing you to do, here. You never actually
> have to prove you are who you say you are, AFAIK. You only have to prove
> you have a right to get what you're after, and sometimes that involves
> providing some sort of ID that can be checked. If the police stop you
> just walking down the road, you don't have to prove who you are, even if
> they decide to arrest you for something.  (The whole "right to not
> incriminate yourself" is about as well supported as the "right to free
> speech" bit here, unlike many other of the supposedly involatile
> rights.)

That's an interesting point of view, not something I've really thought 
of.  Of course, in order to determine if you're allowed to do something 
or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified 
(ie, proving that you are who you say you are) is important.  Otherwise, 
fake IDs wouldn't be a problem - maybe.  Not really thinking as clearly 
at the moment just because of other stuff going on.

Jim

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On 5/7/2011 19:56, Jim Henderson wrote:
> or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified

No, that's my point. You only have to prove how old you are, not who you are.

Now, in practice, there isn't really any ID that can prove how old you are 
without also saying who you are, but there's no theoretical reason there 
couldn't be an ID that gives your age and your photo without your name. And 
for this sort of thing, people check your ID but don't record who you are, 
so it's pretty much the same thing.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 5/7/2011 18:47, Alain wrote:
> In practice, almost nobody have the right to ask you that card, and it's not

To clarify, I haven't had a social security *card* since like 
1980-something. I got a passport, misplaced the "card", and never needed a 
new one. One needs to give the number to the employer to have taxes taken 
out of wages, but one doesn't need to show the actual card if one has proof 
of citizenship in the USA.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Of course, you need a passport to get back 
> into the country if you leave(*)

  That would be unconstitutional here. You can't stop a citizen from
entering the country.

  (Of course if you try to enter the country with some other form of ID
than your passport, it will probably take longer than the usual 10 seconds
it takes with a passport. I don't know what it would involve, but probably
more scrutiny, perhaps even paperwork. If you don't have *any* form of ID,
it will probably take a lot longer to prove your citizenship in some other
way. However, constitutionally you are allowed to enter the country as a
matter of course, if you are a citizen. The constitution does not mention
passports as a requirement.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Sat, 07 May 2011 23:28:15 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 5/7/2011 19:56, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified
> 
> No, that's my point. You only have to prove how old you are, not who you
> are.

But one's age is one property of one's self.  If your identity can't be 
verified, then how does one know the information on this 'ID' is yours 
and not somebody elses?

> Now, in practice, there isn't really any ID that can prove how old you
> are without also saying who you are, but there's no theoretical reason
> there couldn't be an ID that gives your age and your photo without your
> name. And for this sort of thing, people check your ID but don't record
> who you are, so it's pretty much the same thing.

I don't think it's a matter of recording it or not.  To issue a state ID, 
you have to prove who you are - without that proof, the ID is meaningless 
and the state won't issue it.

Jim

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