Want to run BB Desktop Manager once a month or so, but don't have a 
Windows install. Haven't had one in a while, actually, and don't know 
much about it anymore. Is there a cheap one I can buy somewhere or 
should I just pick up an old laptop?

  -Shay

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Post a reply to this message

On 2/12/2011 1:15 PM, Shay wrote:
> Want to run BB Desktop Manager once a month or so, but don't have a
> Windows install. Haven't had one in a while, actually, and don't know
> much about it anymore. Is there a cheap one I can buy somewhere or
> should I just pick up an old laptop?
>
> -Shay

I assume you mean something for a BlackBerry device? Would a virtual 
machine, like VirtualBox, run windows well enough to power it? Or did 
you just mean a cheap computer; there are plenty of those around that 
cost less than new smart phones.

Post a reply to this message

Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> On 2/12/2011 1:15 PM, Shay wrote:
>> Want to run BB Desktop Manager once a month or so, but don't have a
>> Windows install. Haven't had one in a while, actually, and don't know
>> much about it anymore. Is there a cheap one I can buy somewhere or
>> should I just pick up an old laptop?
>>
>> -Shay
> 
> I assume you mean something for a BlackBerry device? Would a virtual
> machine, like VirtualBox, run windows well enough to power it? Or did
> you just mean a cheap computer; there are plenty of those around that
> cost less than new smart phones.

VirtualBox doesn't include Windows, and Windows is not usually cheap.

Post a reply to this message

On 24/02/2011 09:21 PM, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> VirtualBox doesn't include Windows, and Windows is not usually cheap.

Yeah, I've been wondering about this. I want to set up a VM with Windows 
XP, but it's impossible to buy it even if I wanted to...

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>> VirtualBox doesn't include Windows, and Windows is not usually cheap.
>
> Yeah, I've been wondering about this. I want to set up a VM with Windows
> XP, but it's impossible to buy it even if I wanted to...

Where did you look?

Post a reply to this message

On 25/02/2011 09:08 AM, scott wrote:
>> Yeah, I've been wondering about this. I want to set up a VM with Windows
>> XP, but it's impossible to buy it even if I wanted to...
>
> Where did you look?

Well, given that MS stopped supplying XP several years ago, that means 
that you can't (legally) buy it.

The annoying thing is, I already *have* the software. Now if I could 
just obtain a legal license key...

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On 25/02/2011 9:23 AM, Invisible wrote:
> On 25/02/2011 09:08 AM, scott wrote:
>>> Yeah, I've been wondering about this. I want to set up a VM with Windows
>>> XP, but it's impossible to buy it even if I wanted to...
>>
>> Where did you look?
>
> Well, given that MS stopped supplying XP several years ago, that means
> that you can't (legally) buy it.
>

Are you sure? I see it for sale at £49 for the home edition.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Le 25/02/2011 10:23, Invisible a écrit :
> On 25/02/2011 09:08 AM, scott wrote:
>>> Yeah, I've been wondering about this. I want to set up a VM with Windows
>>> XP, but it's impossible to buy it even if I wanted to...
>>
>> Where did you look?
> 
> Well, given that MS stopped supplying XP several years ago, that means
> that you can't (legally) buy it.
> 
> The annoying thing is, I already *have* the software. Now if I could
> just obtain a legal license key...

Welcome in capitalist's IT. You pay for everything and yet you are not
in charge of what you bought.

Was it XP that introduced the wonderful activation code ?
The one with which if you upgrade too much, the system was to be
reactivated... or not!

It just eases maintenance & business, so it must be good (but not for you).

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>> Where did you look?
>
> Well, given that MS stopped supplying XP several years ago, that means
> that you can't (legally) buy it.

Oh yeh, I forgot MS also demanded every person in the world to destroy 
any copy of XP they had...

> The annoying thing is, I already *have* the software. Now if I could
> just obtain a legal license key...

If you refuse to believe that you can still legally buy XP, then I guess 
you'll just have to buy a Win7 license:

"Can I downgrade my OEM version of Windows 7 Professional to Windows 
Vista Business or Windows XP Professional?
Yes. OEM versions of Windows 7 Professional may be downgraded to either 
Windows Vista Business or Windows XP Professional."

From:

http://download.microsoft.com/download/6/8/9/68964284-864d-4a6d-aed9-f2c1f8f23e14/Downgrade_Rights.docx

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On 25/02/2011 09:39 AM, scott wrote:
>>> Where did you look?
>>
>> Well, given that MS stopped supplying XP several years ago, that means
>> that you can't (legally) buy it.
>
> Oh yeh, I forgot MS also demanded every person in the world to destroy
> any copy of XP they had...

It's against the terms of the EULA to resell an XP license if you've 
used it. (And let's face it, how many people will have paid hundreds of 
pounds for something and not used it?)

> If you refuse to believe that you can still legally buy XP, then I guess
> you'll just have to buy a Win7 license:
>
> Yes. OEM versions of Windows 7 Professional may be downgraded to either
> Windows Vista Business or Windows XP Professional."

Ooo, that's interesting. So now instead of the problem being a product 
that's unavailable, the problem is now merely one that's expensive.

Even more interesting... Checking the nearest website shows that you can 
now buy Windows 7 for less than £400.

Post a reply to this message

> It's against the terms of the EULA to resell an XP license if you've
> used it.

I very much doubt that (unless you got the OEM or some upgrade version).

 > (And let's face it, how many people will have paid hundreds of
> pounds for something and not used it?)

Quite a lot actually, it's called running a shop.

Post a reply to this message

On 25/02/2011 10:04 AM, scott wrote:
>> It's against the terms of the EULA to resell an XP license if you've
>> used it.
>
> I very much doubt that (unless you got the OEM or some upgrade version).

I don't think I've ever seen a PC with a non-OEM version of Windows 
installed. (As far as anyone can tell, "OEM" means "25% cheaper with no 
apparent difference in functionality".) However, checking the fine 
print, it does appear that there exist versions of Windows for which you 
*can* legitimately transfer the license. I didn't know that was possible.

>> (And let's face it, how many people will have paid hundreds of
>> pounds for something and not used it?)
>
> Quite a lot actually, it's called running a shop.

Uhuh. And how many of those copies will have been sold over the last 
FOUR YEARS?

Seriously, there's no chance that anybody has any [legal] copies left.

Post a reply to this message

> Seriously, there's no chance that anybody has any [legal] copies left.

Why don't you just try and buy one from amazon?  Once you receive it it 
would be easy to check if it's legal or not, and amazon have a very good 
returns service if it did turn out to be illegal (plus they'd also be 
pretty interested in closing down the source of illegal software they 
were advertising on their site).

Unless you have money to burn, then I'd just get a Win7 license and use 
that for XP.

Post a reply to this message

On 25/02/2011 10:23 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Seriously, there's no chance that anybody has any [legal] copies left.

You do yourself no good expressing those opinions in such a strong 
manor. It makes you sound narrow-minded and stupid and I know that you 
are not.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 25/02/2011 10:47 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 25/02/2011 10:23 AM, Invisible wrote:
>> Seriously, there's no chance that anybody has any [legal] copies left.
>
> You do yourself no good expressing those opinions in such a strong
> manor. It makes you sound narrow-minded and stupid and I know that you
> are not.

If the manufacturer stops making something, you can't buy it any more. 
(At least, not new.) I would have described this as an "obvious fact" 
rather than a mere "opinion".

Or am I actually that stupid that I've missed something?

Post a reply to this message

> If the manufacturer stops making something, you can't buy it any more.

Incorrect.  Take a car that hasn't been in production for the last 10 
years to a garage and ask for a new part (specific to that car) - 
they'll likely have a new one in stock somewhere.  Lots of companies 
specifically buy up lots of parts before production stops, exactly to be 
able to supply them to people at a later date.

I imagine lots of shops bought a load of XP licenses just before MS 
stopped supplying it, some might have even bought enough to last a 
couple of years, and so still have some to sell today.  (Or maybe some 
just overestimated how many XP licenses they would sell).  It doesn't 
seem that implausible to suggest that every XP you see for sale is illegal.

> (At least, not new.)

Does "not new" even make sense for a software license, are you worried 
that the last few digits of the license code might start to wear away? :-)

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On 25/02/2011 12:24 PM, scott wrote:
>> If the manufacturer stops making something, you can't buy it any more.
>
> Incorrect. Take a car that hasn't been in production for the last 10
> years to a garage and ask for a new part (specific to that car) -
> they'll likely have a new one in stock somewhere.

Presumably that's because other companies start making replacement parts 
if there's a demand for them.

> Lots of companies
> specifically buy up lots of parts before production stops, exactly to be
> able to supply them to people at a later date.
>
> I imagine lots of shops bought a load of XP licenses just before MS
> stopped supplying it

I know for a fact that ebuyer did this. However, that was over four 
years ago. They can't possibly have any stock left by now. (And, indeed, 
a quick search of their website reveals this to be the case.)

> It doesn't
> seem that implausible to suggest that every XP you see for sale is illegal.

I presume you meant the negation of that sentence?

>> (At least, not new.)
>
> Does "not new" even make sense for a software license, are you worried
> that the last few digits of the license code might start to wear away? :-)

No. I'm worried about buying second-hand goods from private individuals, 
rather than from a reputable company. Generally I don't buy anything 
(not just software) from private individuals.

Post a reply to this message

On 25/02/2011 12:05 PM, Invisible wrote:
> On 25/02/2011 10:47 AM, Stephen wrote:
>> On 25/02/2011 10:23 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>> Seriously, there's no chance that anybody has any [legal] copies left.
>>
>> You do yourself no good expressing those opinions in such a strong
>> manor. It makes you sound narrow-minded and stupid and I know that you
>> are not.
>
> If the manufacturer stops making something, you can't buy it any more.
> (At least, not new.) I would have described this as an "obvious fact"
> rather than a mere "opinion".
>

You would be wrong. You can generally buy new/unused/not pre-owned 
"things" for some time after they have been discontinued. Some people 
make a living out of it.

> Or am I actually that stupid that I've missed something?

You are not stupid but you make assumptions without checking properly. 
For instance I looked on ebay and can see over 100 XP OS for sale. Quite 
a lot of them are "buy it now" which probably means they are from a trader.


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

>> If the manufacturer stops making something, you can't buy it any more.
>> (At least, not new.) I would have described this as an "obvious fact"
>> rather than a mere "opinion".
>
> You would be wrong. You can generally buy new/unused/not pre-owned
> "things" for some time after they have been discontinued. Some people
> make a living out of it.

You can certainly by used items for a long time after it stops being 
made. But you cannot, for example, buy a "new" Pentium II. They don't 
make them any more.

>> Or am I actually that stupid that I've missed something?
>
> You are not stupid but you make assumptions without checking properly.
> For instance I looked on ebay

You saw software for sale on ebay, and you think it's *legal*??

Post a reply to this message

>> Incorrect. Take a car that hasn't been in production for the last 10
>> years to a garage and ask for a new part (specific to that car) -
>> they'll likely have a new one in stock somewhere.
>
> Presumably that's because other companies start making replacement parts
> if there's a demand for them.

No I'm talking about original parts, they estimate how many parts will 
be needed for the specified service life of the car (typically 12 years 
after end of mass production) and build that many before shutting the 
production line down.  It would be extraordinarily expensive to produce 
just a handful of parts later down the line for a few replacements on 
one car.

> I know for a fact that ebuyer did this. However, that was over four
> years ago. They can't possibly have any stock left by now.

According to Wikipedia MS was still selling the OEM version of XP in 
2009.  Anyway, just because ebuyer have sold everything they stocked up 
on doesn't mean everyone else has too.  It would be quite unlikely that 
out of all the shops in the world none overestimated how many copies of 
XP they were going to sell.

> No. I'm worried about buying second-hand goods from private individuals,
> rather than from a reputable company. Generally I don't buy anything
> (not just software) from private individuals.

Buy one from Amazon then.

Post a reply to this message

On 25/02/2011 1:38 PM, Invisible wrote:
>
> You can certainly by used items for a long time after it stops being
> made. But you cannot, for example, buy a "new" Pentium II. They don't
> make them any more.
>

Look at:
http://tinyurl.com/6l4w67o

>>
>> You are not stupid but you make assumptions without checking properly.
>> For instance I looked on ebay
>
> You saw software for sale on ebay, and you think it's *legal*??

Most likely yes. Why do you think it wouldn't be?
I know it is a big bad world but not everyone is dishonest. In my 
experience most people are honest. I've even met Nigerians who although 
will make a profit are basically honest.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

>> You can certainly by used items for a long time after it stops being
>> made. But you cannot, for example, buy a "new" Pentium II. They don't
>> make them any more.
>
> Look at:
> http://tinyurl.com/6l4w67o

"Refurbished" isn't the same as "new". I didn't say you can't buy it, I 
said you can't buy it new.

>> You saw software for sale on ebay, and you think it's *legal*??
>
> Most likely yes. Why do you think it wouldn't be?

Because it's ebay? It's basically an electronic car boot sale.

> I know it is a big bad world but not everyone is dishonest. In my
> experience most people are honest.

In my experience, a tiny number of people make up for the vast majority 
of network traffic.

Take a look at YouTube. While there *is* good stuff on there, you'd be 
hard-pressed to find any of it. The vast majority of the content is of 
dubious legality, dubious quality, or both.

Post a reply to this message

>> Look at:
>> http://tinyurl.com/6l4w67o
>
> "Refurbished" isn't the same as "new". I didn't say you can't buy it, I
> said you can't buy it new.

You missed the "new" one.  We could go on all day posting examples of 
new stuff to buy that hasn't been manufactured for years.  I imagine HP 
keeps quite a huge stock of parts that are no longer made, specifically 
for people who want to repair servers.

>>> You saw software for sale on ebay, and you think it's *legal*??
>>
>> Most likely yes. Why do you think it wouldn't be?
>
> Because it's ebay? It's basically an electronic car boot sale.

What's wrong with Amazon then?  WHy don't you just order a copy and quit 
trying to tell everyone it's impossible?

Post a reply to this message

On 25/02/2011 2:37 PM, Invisible wrote:
>>
>> Look at:
>> http://tinyurl.com/6l4w67o
>
> "Refurbished" isn't the same as "new". I didn't say you can't buy it, I
> said you can't buy it new.
>

As Scott said.

>>> You saw software for sale on ebay, and you think it's *legal*??
>>
>> Most likely yes. Why do you think it wouldn't be?
>
> Because it's ebay? It's basically an electronic car boot sale.
>

If the seller is a retailer then they are subject to the Distance 
Selling Regulations. It is not really a car boot sale. You have rights.

>> I know it is a big bad world but not everyone is dishonest. In my
>> experience most people are honest.
>
> In my experience, a tiny number of people make up for the vast majority
> of network traffic.
>

Which has very little to do with being able to buy XP OS. Just don't get 
caught out and buy from a reputable seller.

> Take a look at YouTube. While there *is* good stuff on there, you'd be
> hard-pressed to find any of it. The vast majority of the content is of
> dubious legality, dubious quality, or both.

I have neither the time nor the inclination.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Invisible wrote:
> It's against the terms of the EULA to resell an XP license if you've 
> used it. 

Interestingly enough, I think one could argue in a hoist-on-you-own-pitar
d 
kind of way that this is unenforcable, at least in the USA.

When you buy a piece of software, it's just like buying a book. You can 
resell it, rent it out, or otherwise do whatever you want with it, as lon
g 
as you don't violate copyright law.

Installing it on your computer makes a copy, and *that* copy has the EULA
 to 
which you must agree to run it. Indeed, forcing you to agree to the EULA 

before you run it is exactly how the company gets around the permissivene
ss 
of copyright law.  (Altho before the DMCA that didn't actually work.)

So, technically, the EULA applies to the copy you installed on your hard 

disk and transitively to the copy you made into memory (since the courts 

here have said that the copy in memory actually *is* a separate copy, and
 
not just an essential step of using the software).

All this together would seem to imply that the EULA does not apply to the
 
CD, but only to installed copies. Hence, limitations on what you can do w
ith 
the CD after you've wiped out the installation to which the EULA applies 

wouldn't seem to be enforcable.


> (And let's face it, how many people will have paid hundreds of 
> pounds for something and not used it?)

You'd be surprised. Buy a license pack of 25, use 15, go out of business,
 
auction off the other 10 on e-bay.

> Even more interesting... Checking the nearest website shows that you ca
n 
> now buy Windows 7 for less than £400.

Buy the upgrade version. Install XP. Upgrade it to Win7. Downgrade it bac
k 
to XP. ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
  "How did he die?"   "He got shot in the hand."
     "That was fatal?"
          "He was holding a live grenade at the time."

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Invisible wrote:
>>> You can certainly by used items for a long time after it stops being
>>> made. But you cannot, for example, buy a "new" Pentium II. They don't
>>> make them any more.
>>
>> Look at:
>> http://tinyurl.com/6l4w67o
> 
> "Refurbished" isn't the same as "new". I didn't say you can't buy it, I 
> said you can't buy it new.

How do you "refurbish" a CPU, may I ask? That seems bizarre to me. Almost as 
bizarre as refurbished software.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
  "How did he die?"   "He got shot in the hand."
     "That was fatal?"
          "He was holding a live grenade at the time."

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On 25/02/2011 04:53 PM, Darren New wrote:

> How do you "refurbish" a CPU, may I ask?

Blow the dust off it, I presume...

> That seems bizarre to me.
> Almost as bizarre as refurbished software.

Roger that.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 25/02/2011 04:49 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> It's against the terms of the EULA to resell an XP license if you've
>> used it.
>
> Interestingly enough, I think one could argue in a
> hoist-on-you-own-pitard kind of way that this is unenforcable, at least
> in the USA.

That's why I wrote "against the terms of the EULA" rather than 
"illegal". ;-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Le 2011-02-25 07:24, scott a écrit :
>> If the manufacturer stops making something, you can't buy it any more.
>
> Incorrect. Take a car that hasn't been in production for the last 10
> years to a garage and ask for a new part (specific to that car) -
> they'll likely have a new one in stock somewhere. Lots of companies
> specifically buy up lots of parts before production stops, exactly to be
> able to supply them to people at a later date.

Car manufacturers have to continue to make parts available for a certain 
number of years (in most countries, at least) after they redesigned the 
part, or stopped making said vehicle.

For example, GM will have to continue to make Hummer parts available for 
10 years.

-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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On 2/24/2011 4:21 PM, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>> On 2/12/2011 1:15 PM, Shay wrote:
>>> Want to run BB Desktop Manager once a month or so, but don't have a
>>> Windows install. Haven't had one in a while, actually, and don't know
>>> much about it anymore. Is there a cheap one I can buy somewhere or
>>> should I just pick up an old laptop?
>>>
>>> -Shay
>>
>> I assume you mean something for a BlackBerry device? Would a virtual
>> machine, like VirtualBox, run windows well enough to power it? Or did
>> you just mean a cheap computer; there are plenty of those around that
>> cost less than new smart phones.
>
> VirtualBox doesn't include Windows, and Windows is not usually cheap.
>

I don't know about everywhere else, but being a high tech college town 
with lots of turn over in hardware, I have seen Dell and other brand 
computers turn up at the thrift stores with the hologram stickers 
intact. Whether that is a legal transfer of ownership of the license, I 
hadn't actually considered. Those stickers are, in my experience, the 
only 'authenticity' that ship with the devices anymore.

And it seemed to my reading that the question included both the hardware 
to run windows and the OS to run the BB desktop manager. If it is 
against the Windows license to transfer them, my answer can still be 
read as just providing for the hardware side.

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> Car manufacturers have to continue to make parts available for a certain
> number of years (in most countries, at least) after they redesigned the
> part, or stopped making said vehicle.
>
> For example, GM will have to continue to make Hummer parts available for
> 10 years.

Yes that was exactly my point - maybe I just worded it badly as it isn't 
actually the car manufacturer making or stocking the parts, it's their 
suppliers.

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