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Fact: Lots of people apparently have trouble operating computers.
Fact: An ATM is a computer.
Fact: In the 30 years I've been alive, I have never met anybody anywhere
on Earth who has even the slightest difficulty figuring out how to work
an ATM - with no instruction manual.
I wonder how they do that?
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Le 26/10/2010 12:26, Invisible a écrit :
> Fact: Lots of people apparently have trouble operating computers.
>
> Fact: An ATM is a computer.
>
> Fact: In the 30 years I've been alive, I have never met anybody anywhere
> on Earth who has even the slightest difficulty figuring out how to work
> an ATM - with no instruction manual.
>
> I wonder how they do that?
People pay ATTENTION when it's about their money!
Interaction with ATM is limited to a short period, and one operation.
Interaction with ATM is motivated with immediate need.
ATM only offers basic & hierarchical & expectable choice:
- what is your code ? (keyboard with 10 digits, 2 extra key (ok, cancel))
- how much do you want ? (enter number or push 1 button)
- do you agree with the fee ? (yes/no)
Compare to a programming computer's environment: keyboard is 105+ keys,
there is no questions, and people do not even think about the
specifications of what they will be doing for the next week!
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On 26/10/2010 12:54 PM, Le_Forgeron wrote:
> People pay ATTENTION when it's about their money!
You'd think so, but not necessarily. ;-)
(I've heard stories of people putting the receipt in their wallet,
throwing the cash in the bin and walking off before they realised what
the hell they just did.)
> Interaction with ATM is limited to a short period, and one operation.
>
> Interaction with ATM is motivated with immediate need.
OK, well consider something as trivial as operating a video recorder
then. It's really quite astonishing the number of people who cannot get
this to actually work right. WTF is that about?
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On 26/10/2010 2:59 PM, Invisible wrote:
> On 26/10/2010 12:54 PM, Le_Forgeron wrote:
>
>> People pay ATTENTION when it's about their money!
>
> You'd think so, but not necessarily. ;-)
>
> (I've heard stories of people putting the receipt in their wallet,
> throwing the cash in the bin and walking off before they realised what
> the hell they just did.)
I don't know if I believe that.
>
>> Interaction with ATM is limited to a short period, and one operation.
>>
>> Interaction with ATM is motivated with immediate need.
>
> OK, well consider something as trivial as operating a video recorder
> then. It's really quite astonishing the number of people who cannot get
> this to actually work right. WTF is that about?
It’s OK for you, who has grown up with modern technology but for someone
of my age and even younger, operating a VCR is not necessarily trivial.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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Le_Forgeron wrote:
> People pay ATTENTION when it's about their money!
Indeed. That's why you have to take your card back before they give you the
money. Basic design: Pay attention to why people are doing something, and
give them feedback in context.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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>> People pay ATTENTION when it's about their money!
>
> Indeed. That's why you have to take your card back before they give you
> the money. Basic design: Pay attention to why people are doing
> something, and give them feedback in context.
So can everybody use an ATM because it only performs a very simple task?
Or because the people who make them spend a fortune on usability
testing? Or something else? Logically, there's got to be a reason.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Invisible <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> Fact: Lots of people apparently have trouble operating computers.
>
> Fact: An ATM is a computer.
>
> Fact: In the 30 years I've been alive, I have never met anybody anywhere
> on Earth who has even the slightest difficulty figuring out how to work
> an ATM - with no instruction manual.
>
> I wonder how they do that?
they need the money no matter the means
BTW, at least in Brazil a large percentage of ATM machines are Linux underneath.
How about that for ease of use? ;)
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Stephen <mca### [at] aolDOTcom> wrote:
> On 26/10/2010 2:59 PM, Invisible wrote:
> > On 26/10/2010 12:54 PM, Le_Forgeron wrote:
> >
> >> People pay ATTENTION when it's about their money!
> >
> > You'd think so, but not necessarily. ;-)
> >
> > (I've heard stories of people putting the receipt in their wallet,
> > throwing the cash in the bin and walking off before they realised what
> > the hell they just did.)
>
> I don't know if I believe that.
I can believe that if Andrew is talking in the third person... :)
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On 26/10/2010 07:56 PM, nemesis wrote:
> BTW, at least in Brazil a large percentage of ATM machines are Linux underneath.
> How about that for ease of use? ;)
Wikipedia asserts that many newer ATMs run Windows - which would be
extremely disturbing if true...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Le 2010-10-26 06:26, Invisible a écrit :
> Fact: Lots of people apparently have trouble operating computers.
>
> Fact: An ATM is a computer.
>
> Fact: In the 30 years I've been alive, I have never met anybody anywhere
> on Earth who has even the slightest difficulty figuring out how to work
> an ATM - with no instruction manual.
>
> I wonder how they do that?
I used to be a part-time bank teller when I was in university and I have
had to help people figure them out.
Granted, they were older people who were not accustomed to technology
and were afraid the machine would steal their money.
We also had to tell them NOT to write the PIN on the card itself.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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> I used to be a part-time bank teller when I was in university and I have
> had to help people figure them out.
>
> Granted, they were older people who were not accustomed to technology
> and were afraid the machine would steal their money.
Hmm, I may have missed a step: How about a telephone? It's not a
computer, but it sort of talks to one. How many people can't work a
telephone?
(Working an iPhone is another matter, of course...)
> We also had to tell them NOT to write the PIN on the card itself.
Oh, I'm sure to this day lots of people write the PIN down and put it in
their wallet somewhere. Then again, I hear in America people still hide
their door keys under their doormat...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Invisible wrote:
> (I've heard stories of people putting the receipt in their wallet,
I have been at an ATM with six or seven people in line when someone came
running up and said all excitedly "Did anyone find the 30 dollars I just
took out?"
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> So can everybody use an ATM because it only performs a very simple task?
> Or because the people who make them spend a fortune on usability
> testing? Or something else? Logically, there's got to be a reason.
Some of each. The simpler and more focused the task, the easier it is to
design something that is easy to use. Especially when you throw sufficient
UI at it. The "flashing 12:00" problem is that manufacturers didn't want to
add extra buttons and displays to the box. Once people had a 40-button
remote control and a genlock in the VCR, that stopped being a problem.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Wikipedia asserts that many newer ATMs run Windows - which would be
> extremely disturbing if true...
You would be amazed at how many cash registers, ATMs, and even vending
machines are actually running Windows.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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On 26/10/2010 8:00 PM, nemesis wrote:
>> I don't know if I believe that.
> I can believe that if Andrew is talking in the third person...:)
>
>
I did not want to say that :-;
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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>> Wikipedia asserts that many newer ATMs run Windows - which would be
>> extremely disturbing if true...
>
> You would be amazed at how many cash registers, ATMs, and even vending
> machines are actually running Windows.
Why on earth would you pay vast sums of money to use software that only
provides features that you don't actually need?
I'm not denying your claim, only that it makes no rational sense. I've
seen Windows running on plenty of PCs in various retail stores. M&S had
the Windows 2000 logo obviously visible on the touchscreens of their
checkout machines too. And don't even get me started on the video
adverts I saw on London Euston all proclaiming that "STOP 0x00000001E
has occurred"...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:18:56 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> So can everybody use an ATM because it only performs a very simple task?
That, and it's a task people do on at least a weekly basis, in general.
Jim
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:53:12 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> You would be amazed at how many cash registers, ATMs, and even vending
> machines are actually running Windows.
Yep. And airline information boards (always fun to see one of those
bluescreened) and here in Utah, the light rail system ticket kiosks as
well.
I had an interesting discussion with a guy who works for Red Hat last
week about this as well - seems odd to us that the banks are willing to
spend so much money on Windows licenses for kiosks when such tasks are so
trivial that an OS like Linux which can be set up as a simple appliance
fairly easily.
(Of course it's not just about the technical challenges but also about
support)
Jim
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> Wikipedia asserts that many newer ATMs run Windows - which would be
> >> extremely disturbing if true...
> >
> > You would be amazed at how many cash registers, ATMs, and even vending
> > machines are actually running Windows.
>
> Why on earth would you pay vast sums of money to use software that only
> provides features that you don't actually need?
to blame someone. Plus, the Aero interface is sexier. oops...
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On 10/26/2010 3:45 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Hmm, I may have missed a step: How about a telephone? It's not a
> computer, but it sort of talks to one. How many people can't work a
> telephone?
Talk to someone who was around when phones switched from a switchboard
to rotary dial, or from dial to push button. May be hard to find
someone, but I bet they will give you a list of complaints similar to
what you hear about computers.
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On 10/26/2010 8:54 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 26/10/2010 2:59 PM, Invisible wrote:
>> On 26/10/2010 12:54 PM, Le_Forgeron wrote:
>>
>>> People pay ATTENTION when it's about their money!
>>
>> You'd think so, but not necessarily. ;-)
>>
>> (I've heard stories of people putting the receipt in their wallet,
>> throwing the cash in the bin and walking off before they realised what
>> the hell they just did.)
>
> I don't know if I believe that.
>
Seen it, nearly done it. lol
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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On 10/26/2010 12:52 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> So can everybody use an ATM because it only performs a very simple
>> task? Or because the people who make them spend a fortune on usability
>> testing? Or something else? Logically, there's got to be a reason.
>
> Some of each. The simpler and more focused the task, the easier it is to
> design something that is easy to use. Especially when you throw
> sufficient UI at it. The "flashing 12:00" problem is that manufacturers
> didn't want to add extra buttons and displays to the box. Once people
> had a 40-button remote control and a genlock in the VCR, that stopped
> being a problem.
>
Seriously? No, the problem with the flashing 12:00 thing was design
laziness. I still buy shit with this problem, the stupidest version of
it being the "DVR" that "set its time, based on the local PBS".
***BUT***, it only ever did this one time, after which it would, for no
comprehensible reason, slowly lose about 3-4 seconds per day, so that,
after a month, you would be looking at a 2 minute difference between the
time it "should have" shown, and the one it actually did use.
Apparently, they must have figured that the best way to "fix" the clock
in the damn thing was to completely remover the clock, you know..
instead of something silly, like having it check every 24 hours, to see
the time, then update the BIOS clock, in what is basically a computer MB...
No, manufacturers flat out didn't feel the need to fix it, never mind
that the means to do so has been out there for ages. My frakking alarm
click uses a basic radio signal thing, to set the time (some USGS thing,
or something), and stuff has been doing that for 50 years or more.
The reason you don't see the problem now is.. Ironically, that most
actually manage to use PBS, or some other channel, to set the time now,
or its a cable box, which gets the time from the central office. Still
doesn't stop them from failing to store, even temporarily, a DB of say,
the channel names, and basic data for the week, so if the power goes
down, you don't have to wait 12 hours to tell what will be on 2 hours
from now, never mind 2 days. Sigh... Figure, by the time they fix this,
someone will invent a new sort of media, and TV will end. lol
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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On 10/26/2010 12:53 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Wikipedia asserts that many newer ATMs run Windows - which would be
>> extremely disturbing if true...
>
> You would be amazed at how many cash registers, ATMs, and even vending
> machines are actually running Windows.
>
No kidding. You can tell at the store I work at. Not just when you have
to reboot, and it says so, but by the fact that updates to the registers
lag the whole network, printing daily reports.. lags the system for
hours *after* the process completes, pressing the wrong button causes
the entire secondary "customer" price listing screen to malfunction and
show Cyrillic, or something.. Its a damn mess, and I am constantly
surprised that the whole system doesn't crash (well, more often than
once ever 6 months, which *does* seem to happen).
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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On 10/26/2010 2:35 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:53:12 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>
>> You would be amazed at how many cash registers, ATMs, and even vending
>> machines are actually running Windows.
>
> Yep. And airline information boards (always fun to see one of those
> bluescreened) and here in Utah, the light rail system ticket kiosks as
> well.
>
> I had an interesting discussion with a guy who works for Red Hat last
> week about this as well - seems odd to us that the banks are willing to
> spend so much money on Windows licenses for kiosks when such tasks are so
> trivial that an OS like Linux which can be set up as a simple appliance
> fairly easily.
>
> (Of course it's not just about the technical challenges but also about
> support)
>
> Jim
Support? Oh, you mean, "Turn it off, wait 30 seconds, and turn it on
again. Unless the web service the kiosk is "actually" running from is
down, this should fix it (well, at least for a few days...)"
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Why on earth would you pay vast sums of money to use software that only
> provides features that you don't actually need?
Because it provides the features you *do* need.
When I was working with the vending machines, nobody made a device that
would take in bills and make change that could be driven from Linux, for
example.
Plus, if you pass the cost on to the customer, it's not that big an expense
compared to buying the machine and the software *you* wrote to start with.
If you're selling a $5000 machine with $9000 of custom software on it, are
you really going to bitch at $75 of Windows licenses?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Yep. And airline information boards (always fun to see one of those
> bluescreened) and here in Utah, the light rail system ticket kiosks as
> well.
Well, everyone has their problems. I've not been on an airplane flight in
the last 5 years or so that the Linux-based seat-back system didn't have to
be rebooted in flight, for example.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> On 10/26/2010 3:45 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Hmm, I may have missed a step: How about a telephone? It's not a
>> computer, but it sort of talks to one. How many people can't work a
>> telephone?
>
> Talk to someone who was around when phones switched from a switchboard
> to rotary dial, or from dial to push button. May be hard to find
> someone, but I bet they will give you a list of complaints similar to
> what you hear about computers.
I met someone who didn't know how to turn on a cell phone just a couple
years ago.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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On 27/10/2010 1:33 AM, Darren New wrote:
> Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>> On 10/26/2010 3:45 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Hmm, I may have missed a step: How about a telephone? It's not a
>>> computer, but it sort of talks to one. How many people can't work a
>>> telephone?
>>
>> Talk to someone who was around when phones switched from a switchboard
>> to rotary dial, or from dial to push button. May be hard to find
>> someone, but I bet they will give you a list of complaints similar to
>> what you hear about computers.
>
> I met someone who didn't know how to turn on a cell phone just a couple
> years ago.
>
When did you meet my wife?
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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On 26/10/2010 11:36 PM, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> On 10/26/2010 3:45 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Hmm, I may have missed a step: How about a telephone? It's not a
>> computer, but it sort of talks to one. How many people can't work a
>> telephone?
>
> Talk to someone who was around when phones switched from a switchboard
> to rotary dial, or from dial to push button. May be hard to find
> someone, but I bet they will give you a list of complaints similar to
> what you hear about computers.
I remember rotary dials. I don't remember anybody having any specific
problem when it switched to push buttons. (If anything, that makes it
*easier*...)
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Le 2010-10-26 15:33, Orchid XP v8 a écrit :
> On 26/10/2010 07:56 PM, nemesis wrote:
>
>> BTW, at least in Brazil a large percentage of ATM machines are Linux
>> underneath.
>> How about that for ease of use? ;)
>
> Wikipedia asserts that many newer ATMs run Windows - which would be
> extremely disturbing if true...
>
Older ones used to run OS/2 2.1. The newer ones mostly run Windows 2000
or XP. In some cases, you can even see the Thinkpad inside when they
are being refilled with money.
I've seen one reboot and execute a bunch of .BATs to upgrade stuff while
trying to get money for a cab at Prague's airport. Very scary!
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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Le 2010-10-26 17:24, Orchid XP v8 a écrit :
>>> Wikipedia asserts that many newer ATMs run Windows - which would be
>>> extremely disturbing if true...
>>
>> You would be amazed at how many cash registers, ATMs, and even vending
>> machines are actually running Windows.
>
> Why on earth would you pay vast sums of money to use software that only
> provides features that you don't actually need?
>
> I'm not denying your claim, only that it makes no rational sense. I've
> seen Windows running on plenty of PCs in various retail stores. M&S had
> the Windows 2000 logo obviously visible on the touchscreens of their
> checkout machines too. And don't even get me started on the video
> adverts I saw on London Euston all proclaiming that "STOP 0x00000001E
> has occurred"...
>
More about Prague airport...
I was waiting for my flight home and trying to understand the Czech news
lady (it was Sept 12 2006, and she was talking about the 5th anniversary
of the WTC attacks), when all of a sudden, all of the tv screens in the
airport, including arrivals/departures displays, switched back to the XP
desktop with the little bubble in the lower right corner advising that
some icons had not been used in 60 days.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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Le 2010-10-26 19:19, Patrick Elliott a écrit :
> On 10/26/2010 2:35 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:53:12 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>>
>>> You would be amazed at how many cash registers, ATMs, and even vending
>>> machines are actually running Windows.
>>
>> Yep. And airline information boards (always fun to see one of those
>> bluescreened) and here in Utah, the light rail system ticket kiosks as
>> well.
>>
>> I had an interesting discussion with a guy who works for Red Hat last
>> week about this as well - seems odd to us that the banks are willing to
>> spend so much money on Windows licenses for kiosks when such tasks are so
>> trivial that an OS like Linux which can be set up as a simple appliance
>> fairly easily.
>>
>> (Of course it's not just about the technical challenges but also about
>> support)
>>
>> Jim
> Support? Oh, you mean, "Turn it off, wait 30 seconds, and turn it on
> again. Unless the web service the kiosk is "actually" running from is
> down, this should fix it (well, at least for a few days...)"
>
Not really. There are technicians in the airports that do that on a
regular basis. Those kiosks need boarding passes and baggage tags paper
from time to time, regardless of the OS they're running.
IT managers are scared of having to face an application or OS issue that
can only be resolved by having some programmer in Ukraine decide to fix
it when he's done playing WOW. For some reason, knowing they pay tens
of thousands of dollars per year to have a 24/7 toll-free number they
can call and yell at someone reassures them, even if the fix doesn't
necessarily come faster.
This is why Red Hat makes money.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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>> Why on earth would you pay vast sums of money to use software that
>> only provides features that you don't actually need?
>
> Because it provides the features you *do* need.
>
> When I was working with the vending machines, nobody made a device that
> would take in bills and make change that could be driven from Linux, for
> example.
I would have thought compared to building a large, complex application
to run the machine itself, writing a few dozen lines of assembly to
function as a device driver would be pretty trivial...
> Plus, if you pass the cost on to the customer, it's not that big an
> expense compared to buying the machine and the software *you* wrote to
> start with. If you're selling a $5000 machine with $9000 of custom
> software on it, are you really going to bitch at $75 of Windows licenses?
In what universe can you license Windows for a piffling $75? (And can I
join this universe?)
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:19:29 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Support? Oh, you mean, "Turn it off, wait 30 seconds, and turn it on
> again. Unless the web service the kiosk is "actually" running from is
> down, this should fix it (well, at least for a few days...)"
It's always a little more involved than that when it comes to a kiosk.
Sure, fixing the kiosk is easy, fixing the kiosk in the context of a
larger infrastructure is more involved.
I think it's fair/safe to say that ATMs are not stand-alone devices, but
rather that they're connected into a network and thus "support" involves
more than just "turn it off, turn it on" if the problem is device support
or network support.
Jim
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:33:21 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Yep. And airline information boards (always fun to see one of those
>> bluescreened) and here in Utah, the light rail system ticket kiosks as
>> well.
>
> Well, everyone has their problems.
Sure, that happens with complex systems.
> I've not been on an airplane flight
> in the last 5 years or so that the Linux-based seat-back system didn't
> have to be rebooted in flight, for example.
I've not had that experience myself. I'd be really surprised if that was
a regular occurrence, given that my Linux boxes all are used much more
heavily and generally only need to be rebooted after a kernel patch is
applied. I think it's been about 5-7 years since my last actual kernel
panic.
Jim
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:12:38 +0100, Invisible wrote:
> In what universe can you license Windows for a piffling $75? (And can I
> join this universe?)
This universe. When you're buying licenses for a single-purpose app,
Microsoft has a licensing scheme for that, as I recall. Plus volume
discounts - you don't really think everyone pays full retail for every
Windows machine they deploy, do you?
Jim
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Invisible wrote:
> writing a few dozen lines of assembly to
> function as a device driver would be pretty trivial...
And you would be right, were we living in a universe where people building
hardware spent *their* money so you could spend less of *your* money.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> I've not had that experience myself. I'd be really surprised if that was
> a regular occurrence,
Well, it is for me.
I'll grant you it's entirely possible it's a hardware, power, or server
problem. But to the end user, that doesn't really matter that much.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Stephen wrote:
> On 27/10/2010 1:33 AM, Darren New wrote:
>> Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>>> On 10/26/2010 3:45 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> Hmm, I may have missed a step: How about a telephone? It's not a
>>>> computer, but it sort of talks to one. How many people can't work a
>>>> telephone?
>>>
>>> Talk to someone who was around when phones switched from a switchboard
>>> to rotary dial, or from dial to push button. May be hard to find
>>> someone, but I bet they will give you a list of complaints similar to
>>> what you hear about computers.
>>
>> I met someone who didn't know how to turn on a cell phone just a couple
>> years ago.
>>
>
> When did you meet my wife?
>
Well, to be fair, the guy had been living on a tropical island for 15 years,
so it wasn't really surprising. (Actually, it was surprising, since he had
said he'd lived with his wife in Australia for a while. It took me some time
to realize it must have been before the invention of cell phones.)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:14:34 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I've not had that experience myself. I'd be really surprised if that
>> was a regular occurrence,
>
> Well, it is for me.
I meant statistically over a large sample of users.
> I'll grant you it's entirely possible it's a hardware, power, or server
> problem. But to the end user, that doesn't really matter that much.
True.
Jim
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On 10/27/2010 8:55 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:19:29 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
>> Support? Oh, you mean, "Turn it off, wait 30 seconds, and turn it on
>> again. Unless the web service the kiosk is "actually" running from is
>> down, this should fix it (well, at least for a few days...)"
>
> It's always a little more involved than that when it comes to a kiosk.
> Sure, fixing the kiosk is easy, fixing the kiosk in the context of a
> larger infrastructure is more involved.
>
> I think it's fair/safe to say that ATMs are not stand-alone devices, but
> rather that they're connected into a network and thus "support" involves
> more than just "turn it off, turn it on" if the problem is device support
> or network support.
>
> Jim
Probably true, for some of that stuff. My own experience with
kiosk/kiosk like things has been bloody Windows XP running "cash
registers" and IE running "info" kiosks. The problem is almost
invariably standard Windows. Device is too stupid to realize something
is wrong, there is no simple reset for it, the software is buggy enough
something *will* go wrong, not just might, and the only way "solution"
given is to hope once a year that they patch the problem, or cold start
the damn things.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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On 26-10-2010 21:45, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> I used to be a part-time bank teller when I was in university and I have
>> had to help people figure them out.
>>
>> Granted, they were older people who were not accustomed to technology
>> and were afraid the machine would steal their money.
>
> Hmm, I may have missed a step: How about a telephone? It's not a
> computer, but it sort of talks to one. How many people can't work a
> telephone?
>
> (Working an iPhone is another matter, of course...)
obligatory quote:
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how
to use my telephone." Bjarne Stroustrup
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On 27/10/2010 5:15 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> When did you meet my wife?
>>
>
> Well, to be fair, the guy had been living on a tropical island for 15
> years, so it wasn't really surprising. (Actually, it was surprising,
> since he had said he'd lived with his wife in Australia for a while. It
> took me some time to realize it must have been before the invention of
> cell phones.)
My wife is a Luddite. ask her about HiFi and she will tech you under the
table but computers... I've been trying to teach her about "copy and
paste" for more than ten years. (What is the emocion for "my head hurts"?)
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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On 10/27/2010 5:52 AM, Francois Labreque wrote:
> Le 2010-10-26 15:33, Orchid XP v8 a écrit :
>> On 26/10/2010 07:56 PM, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>> BTW, at least in Brazil a large percentage of ATM machines are Linux
>>> underneath.
>>> How about that for ease of use? ;)
>>
>> Wikipedia asserts that many newer ATMs run Windows - which would be
>> extremely disturbing if true...
>>
>
> Older ones used to run OS/2 2.1. The newer ones mostly run Windows 2000
> or XP. In some cases, you can even see the Thinkpad inside when they are
> being refilled with money.
>
> I've seen one reboot and execute a bunch of .BATs to upgrade stuff while
> trying to get money for a cab at Prague's airport. Very scary!
>
I don't know.. DOS might actually be "more" reliable than some of these
newer OSes, which where never intended for single purpose machines,
without multitasking needs.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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On 27/10/2010 05:12 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> writing a few dozen lines of assembly to
>> function as a device driver would be pretty trivial...
>
> And you would be right, were we living in a universe where people
> building hardware spent *their* money so you could spend less of *your*
> money.
I'm not sure I follow...
By not using exorbitantly-priced MS products, they can sell their device
significantly more cheaply. You would think that would be a fairly
compelling market advantage.
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Invisible wrote:
> On 27/10/2010 05:12 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> Invisible wrote:
>>> writing a few dozen lines of assembly to
>>> function as a device driver would be pretty trivial...
>>
>> And you would be right, were we living in a universe where people
>> building hardware spent *their* money so you could spend less of *your*
>> money.
>
> I'm not sure I follow...
>
> By not using exorbitantly-priced MS products, they can sell their device
> significantly more cheaply. You would think that would be a fairly
> compelling market advantage.
No. The guys making the coin changer, etc, having to support *both* Windows
and Linux costs more than supporting just Windows. I imagine if someone came
to them and said "We'll buy 50,000 of these if you provide a Linux driver"
then they would have done so. But those 2 dozen lines of assembly, along
with all the other stuff that goes with it (like maintenance, sales,
marketing, tech documentation, recompiling it for each kernel as necessary,
etc etc) costs money and apparently wasn't worth doing.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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>>>> writing a few dozen lines of assembly to
>>>> function as a device driver would be pretty trivial...
>>>
>>> And you would be right, were we living in a universe where people
>>> building hardware spent *their* money so you could spend less of *your*
>>> money.
>>
>> I'm not sure I follow...
>>
>> By not using exorbitantly-priced MS products, they can sell their
>> device significantly more cheaply. You would think that would be a
>> fairly compelling market advantage.
>
> No. The guys making the coin changer, etc, having to support *both*
> Windows and Linux costs more than supporting just Windows. I imagine if
> someone came to them and said "We'll buy 50,000 of these if you provide
> a Linux driver" then they would have done so. But those 2 dozen lines of
> assembly, along with all the other stuff that goes with it (like
> maintenance, sales, marketing, tech documentation, recompiling it for
> each kernel as necessary, etc etc) costs money and apparently wasn't
> worth doing.
Oh, right.
I was thinking more along the lines of "if the device you want to use
doesn't have Linux drivers, just write some".
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I was thinking more along the lines of "if the device you want to use
> doesn't have Linux drivers, just write some".
And indeed you could do that, if doing so would cost less than just buying
Windows for your machine. Remember that there might be 3 or 4 devices that
only have Windows drivers: bill taker, coin changer, receipt printer,
touchscreen, etc.
You, as a manager, can say "Is it worth $75/machine to try to reverse
engineer these devices in a way that
1) they work reliably
2) they don't spit money randomly back to the user
3) it keeps working even when the manufacturer changes something,
4) and get it working by the time we need it?"
Tell me, if I handed you a piece of hardware with no documentation other
than how to invoke the Windows device drivers, how long would it take you to
reverse-engineer the Linux driver for it the first time? How long after the
manufacturer changes something and updates the Windows driver before you
know something is broken in your Linux driver?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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On 28/10/2010 07:22 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> I was thinking more along the lines of "if the device you want to use
>> doesn't have Linux drivers, just write some".
>
> And indeed you could do that, if doing so would cost less than just
> buying Windows for your machine. Remember that there might be 3 or 4
> devices that only have Windows drivers: bill taker, coin changer,
> receipt printer, touchscreen, etc.
>
> You, as a manager, can say "Is it worth $75/machine to try to reverse
> engineer these devices in a way that
>
> 1) they work reliably
> 2) they don't spit money randomly back to the user
> 3) it keeps working even when the manufacturer changes something,
> 4) and get it working by the time we need it?"
>
> Tell me, if I handed you a piece of hardware with no documentation other
> than how to invoke the Windows device drivers, how long would it take
> you to reverse-engineer the Linux driver for it the first time? How long
> after the manufacturer changes something and updates the Windows driver
> before you know something is broken in your Linux driver?
Well, you'd think that the code to operate something as trivial as a
coin counter would be very simple. But sure, I take your point.
I guess the real question is "why are people manufacturing devices that
will only ever be used as part of an embedded system writing drivers for
it that won't work as part of an embedded system?"
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Well, you'd think that the code to operate something as trivial as a
> coin counter would be very simple. But sure, I take your point.
Well, no. There's interrupts, sensors saying how many coins are there, to
signal when it's out of coins or has been filled incorrectly, timing delays
for releasing various coins, dealing with power going out and coming back on
while the mechanism is operating, etc.
Everything's trivial if you aren't the one writing the code.
> I guess the real question is "why are people manufacturing devices that
> will only ever be used as part of an embedded system writing drivers for
> it that won't work as part of an embedded system?"
Except it *is* a driver working as part of an embedded system, obviously.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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