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So, I'm not formally trained in mathematics at all. Normally, I can
muddle through. I kept seeing the following mysterious symbol: Π
Err... what on earth?
Then, today, I was poking around with MathML and saw the symbol on a
sample page, right-clicked and looked at the mark-up.
Product.
So.... essentially the same thing as Σ but with multiplication instead
of addition.
Nice. Now I have to go back and find all of those formulae so I can
actually understand them.
--
~Mike
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Mike Raiford escreveu:
> So, I'm not formally trained in mathematics at all. Normally, I can
> muddle through. I kept seeing the following mysterious symbol: Π
>
> Err... what on earth?
>
> Then, today, I was poking around with MathML and saw the symbol on a
> sample page, right-clicked and looked at the mark-up.
>
> Product.
looks like pi to me...
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On 21-9-2010 20:18, nemesis wrote:
> Mike Raiford escreveu:
>> So, I'm not formally trained in mathematics at all. Normally, I can
>> muddle through. I kept seeing the following mysterious symbol: Π
>>
>> Err... what on earth?
>>
>> Then, today, I was poking around with MathML and saw the symbol on a
>> sample page, right-clicked and looked at the mark-up.
>>
>> Product.
>
> looks like pi to me...
>
Probably because it is. Just as summation is a capital Sigma a product
is a capital Pi. That made sense to the people that invented the
convention, it might not work in every language, but in Dutch and
English it does.
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>> So, I'm not formally trained in mathematics at all. Normally, I can
>> muddle through. I kept seeing the following mysterious symbol: Π
>>
>> Err... what on earth?
>
> looks like pi to me...
It *is*. It's the uppercase Greek letter pi (whereas the famous
mathematical constant is the lowercase pi.) And the summation symbol is
the (uppercase) Greek letter sigma...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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And lo On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 18:20:11 +0100, Mike Raiford
<"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> did spake thusly:
> So, I'm not formally trained in mathematics at all. Normally, I can
> muddle through. I kept seeing the following mysterious symbol: Π
>
> Err... what on earth?
Yeah I recall Sigma a lot in high school maths but I don't recall every
seeing Pi in this context. I don't recall when I discovered it, but it was
definitely after leaving education.
> Then, today, I was poking around with MathML and saw the symbol on a
> sample page, right-clicked and looked at the mark-up.
Or you could have, you know, asked here :-)
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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> Yeah I recall Sigma a lot in high school maths but I don't recall every
> seeing Pi in this context. I don't recall when I discovered it, but it
> was definitely after leaving education.
You obviously had much greater mathematical education than me then!
>> Then, today, I was poking around with MathML and saw the symbol on a
>> sample page, right-clicked and looked at the mark-up.
>
> Or you could have, you know, asked here :-)
What, to cries of GIYF?
Or is that only when *I* ask something? :-P
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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
>>> So, I'm not formally trained in mathematics at all. Normally, I can
>>> muddle through. I kept seeing the following mysterious symbol: Π
>>>
>>> Err... what on earth?
>>
>> looks like pi to me...
>
> It *is*. It's the uppercase Greek letter pi (whereas the famous
> mathematical constant is the lowercase pi.) And the summation symbol is
> the (uppercase) Greek letter sigma...
neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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Le 22/09/2010 19:02, nemesis nous fit lire :
> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>
Take a seat, greek letters have uppercase & lowercase.
Now, take a deep breath.
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Le_Forgeron escreveu:
> Le 22/09/2010 19:02, nemesis nous fit lire :
>> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>>
> Take a seat, greek letters have uppercase & lowercase.
> Now, take a deep breath.
and can you think of any of them where the difference between them isn't
merely size? Take roman letters like "H" or "h" and the difference is
remarkable. Not such with "lowercase" or "uppercase" greek (at least
the one's I know).
That's why I saw no difference in the pi symbol: I have no size to
relate to to tell if it's big or small.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On 9/22/2010 11:52 AM, nemesis wrote:
> and can you think of any of them where the difference between them isn't
> merely size?
How about:
Alpha, Gamma, Delta, Zeta, Eta, Mu, Nu, Xi, Pi, Sigma, Upsilon, and Omega?
You also get less drastic changes for: Beta, Epsilon, Iota, Lambda, and
Phi, plus some minor changes even for many of the remaining letters.
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On 22/09/2010 06:02 PM, nemesis wrote:
> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
Oh, it's better: The entire Greek alphabet has uppercase and lowercase! :-P
(Although I surprising number of Greek letters, especially uppercase
ones, look exactly like Roman ones...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 22/09/2010 07:52 PM, nemesis wrote:
> and can you think of any of them where the difference between them isn't
> merely size? Take roman letters like "H" or "h" and the difference is
> remarkable. Not such with "lowercase" or "uppercase" greek (at least the
> one's I know).
>
> That's why I saw no difference in the pi symbol: I have no size to
> relate to to tell if it's big or small.
Lowercase sigma looks like a "6", but the uppercase looks more like...
well, you've seen it, right?
Uppercase mu is an "M", but the lowercase is the "micro" symbol, that
looks more like a "u".
I could go on... GIYF.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 22-9-2010 12:35, Invisible wrote:
>> Yeah I recall Sigma a lot in high school maths but I don't recall every
>> seeing Pi in this context. I don't recall when I discovered it, but it
>> was definitely after leaving education.
>
> You obviously had much greater mathematical education than me then!
>
>>> Then, today, I was poking around with MathML and saw the symbol on a
>>> sample page, right-clicked and looked at the mark-up.
>>
>> Or you could have, you know, asked here :-)
>
> What, to cries of GIYF?
>
> Or is that only when *I* ask something? :-P
Probably ;)
Actually no, because to ask google you need to know what it is.
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On 22-9-2010 20:52, nemesis wrote:
> Le_Forgeron escreveu:
>> Le 22/09/2010 19:02, nemesis nous fit lire :
>>> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>>>
>> Take a seat, greek letters have uppercase & lowercase.
>> Now, take a deep breath.
>
> and can you think of any of them where the difference between them isn't
> merely size? Take roman letters like "H" or "h" and the difference is
> remarkable. Not such with "lowercase" or "uppercase" greek (at least the
> one's I know).
Google 'greek alphabet' or something similar.
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>>> Or you could have, you know, asked here :-)
>>
>> What, to cries of GIYF?
>>
>> Or is that only when *I* ask something? :-P
> Probably ;)
> Actually no, because to ask google you need to know what it is.
This always amused me at school.
"I don't know how to spell X."
"Well look it up in the dictionary then!"
"But - and I refer you to point #1 - I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SPELL IT! >_<"
Still, usually when I state here that something cannot be Googled,
usually somebody immediately points out how to Google it...
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On 23/09/2010 9:08 AM, Invisible wrote:
> This always amused me at school.
>
> "I don't know how to spell X."
> "Well look it up in the dictionary then!"
> "But - and I refer you to point #1 - I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SPELL IT! >_<"
>
I find that Google is good for getting the correct spelling.
> Still, usually when I state here that something cannot be Googled,
> usually somebody immediately points out how to Google it...
Maybe people are ignoring you saying that something cannot be googled
and read it as *you* cannot google it. They then show you how to google it.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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>> This always amused me at school.
>>
>> "I don't know how to spell X."
>> "Well look it up in the dictionary then!"
>> "But - and I refer you to point #1 - I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SPELL IT! >_<"
>
> I find that Google is good for getting the correct spelling.
Yes - but you must be careful that it's spelt the word you actually
want. (!)
>> Still, usually when I state here that something cannot be Googled,
>> usually somebody immediately points out how to Google it...
>
> Maybe people are ignoring you saying that something cannot be googled
> and read it as *you* cannot google it. They then show you how to google it.
Well, whatever. In the case of knowing the Greek alphabet, this is
trivially searchable. Indeed, you just need to type "Greek alphabet"
into Wikipedia...
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On 9/22/2010 12:02 PM, nemesis wrote:
>
> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>
Greek, like Latin has both upper and lower case.
--
~Mike
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On 9/23/2010 6:59 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Well, whatever. In the case of knowing the Greek alphabet, this is
> trivially searchable. Indeed, you just need to type "Greek alphabet"
> into Wikipedia...
That is, of course, if you know the character you're looking at belongs
to the Greek alphabet. Otherwise, googling is futile.
Though, I guess since it's a mathematical symbol chances are, it's Greek.
--
~Mike
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On 23/09/2010 01:15 PM, Mike Raiford wrote:
>> Well, whatever. In the case of knowing the Greek alphabet, this is
>> trivially searchable. Indeed, you just need to type "Greek alphabet"
>> into Wikipedia...
>
> That is, of course, if you know the character you're looking at belongs
> to the Greek alphabet. Otherwise, googling is futile.
The original statement was "wait, Greek has uppercase?!"
> Though, I guess since it's a mathematical symbol chances are, it's Greek.
Good luck looking up Aleph and Beth. ;-)
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:15:22 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I could go on... GIYF.
<checks that gravity is still working>
Yep, gravity's still on. ;-)
Jim
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Mike Raiford escreveu:
> On 9/22/2010 12:02 PM, nemesis wrote:
>
>>
>> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>>
>
> Greek, like Latin has both upper and lower case.
I'm used to Scheme, you case-sensitive clod!
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On 23/09/2010 12:59 PM, Invisible wrote:
> Yes - but you must be careful that it's spelt the word you actually
> want. (!)
>
True
> Well, whatever.
Hmm!
> In the case of knowing the Greek alphabet, this is
> trivially searchable. Indeed, you just need to type "Greek alphabet"
> into Wikipedia...
Or just remember it.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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And lo On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:15:45 +0100, Mike Raiford
<"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> did spake thusly:
> On 9/23/2010 6:59 AM, Invisible wrote:
>
>
>> Well, whatever. In the case of knowing the Greek alphabet, this is
>> trivially searchable. Indeed, you just need to type "Greek alphabet"
>> into Wikipedia...
>
> That is, of course, if you know the character you're looking at belongs
> to the Greek alphabet. Otherwise, googling is futile.
>
> Though, I guess since it's a mathematical symbol chances are, it's Greek.
Although if you know its a mathematical symbol you can Google that and get
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols as the first
return and just scroll down that until you see the same one ;-)
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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And lo On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:10:44 +0100, Mike Raiford
<"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> did spake thusly:
> On 9/22/2010 12:02 PM, nemesis wrote:
>
>>
>> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>>
>
> Greek, like Latin has both upper and lower case.
Or to put it another way Greek like Latin has only upper case letters with
lower case being only a recent introduction ;-)
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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On 24/09/2010 09:44 AM, Phil Cook v2 wrote:
> Although if you know its a mathematical symbol you can Google that and
> get http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols as the
> first return and just scroll down that until you see the same one ;-)
And, like it says at the very top, "this list is incomplete". ;-)
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On 9/23/2010 7:26 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Good luck looking up Aleph and Beth. ;-)
Hebrew... I learned about א₀ from the commentary on
Futurama of
all things.
(Apologies if that doesn't show properly ... Some fonts may not contain
the proper glyphs, and I had a hell of a time with the whole RTL thing
and getting the proper control code in there to revert from RTL to LTR.
Hebrew characters inline can be a bit bothersome ;)
--
~Mike
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On 24/09/2010 12:56 PM, Mike Raiford wrote:
> Hebrew characters inline can be a bit bothersome ;)
You think that's bad? You try doing *arithmetic* with transfinite
cardinal numbers! :-P
Almost any function of infinity IS ALSO infinity! >_<
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On 9/23/2010 12:50 PM, nemesis wrote:
> Mike Raiford escreveu:
>> On 9/22/2010 12:02 PM, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>>>
>>
>> Greek, like Latin has both upper and lower case.
>
> I'm used to Scheme, you case-sensitive clod!
>
Case sensitivity gives me twice as many characters available for
variable names!
;)
As a fun aside... apparently C# will accept any
non-number/non-punctuator as a valid variable name. This is valid C#
code and will compile and execute (and give completely wrong results):
private static double Γ(double z)
{
// in reality this would actually return the result of the
gamma function...
return z;
}
static void Main(string[] args)
{
Console.WriteLine("The value of the gamma function is: " +
Γ(1));
Console.ReadKey();
}
A good way to piss off your co-workers, for sure.. XD
--
~Mike
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On 9/24/2010 7:24 AM, Invisible wrote:
> On 24/09/2010 12:56 PM, Mike Raiford wrote:
>
>> Hebrew characters inline can be a bit bothersome ;)
>
> You think that's bad? You try doing *arithmetic* with transfinite
> cardinal numbers! :-P
>
> Almost any function of infinity IS ALSO infinity! >_<
I think I'll hold off on that one for a little while. ;)
--
~Mike
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On 9/24/2010 7:29 AM, Mike Raiford wrote:
> This is valid C# code and will compile and execute
> (and give completely wrong results):
Valid that is if it's enclosed in a class and a namespace :facepalm:
--
~Mike
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On 24/09/2010 01:29 PM, Mike Raiford wrote:
> As a fun aside... apparently C# will accept any
> non-number/non-punctuator as a valid variable name.
That's nothing. In Haskell, you can use punctuation *as well*!
More precisely, you can use names consisting only of punctuation, which
then become infix operators. Or you can use names beginning with a
letter and then continuing with any character except for a rather small
set of standard ASCII characters considered to be "punctuation" as per
the Haskell Language Report [*not* as per Unicode].
Some folks like to do things like define a function composition operator
who's name is the *actual* Unicode code-point for the function
composition operator. (These same people tend to use "λ" in place of "\"
too, which is allowed by the syntax rules...)
Amusingly, you cannot define a Γ function in Haskell, because Γ is an
uppercase letter. You can, however, define a γ function if you like...
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On 24-9-2010 10:50, Phil Cook v2 wrote:
> And lo On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:10:44 +0100, Mike Raiford
> <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> did spake thusly:
>
>> On 9/22/2010 12:02 PM, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>>>
>>
>> Greek, like Latin has both upper and lower case.
>
> Or to put it another way Greek like Latin has only upper case letters
> with lower case being only a recent introduction ;-)
>
IIRC uppercase because you can chisel them in stone. lower case after
starting writing regularly on things like papyrus that allows curves
more easily.
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On 24-9-2010 11:02, Invisible wrote:
> On 24/09/2010 09:44 AM, Phil Cook v2 wrote:
>
>> Although if you know its a mathematical symbol you can Google that and
>> get http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols as the
>> first return and just scroll down that until you see the same one ;-)
>
> And, like it says at the very top, "this list is incomplete". ;-)
It has to be. Missing is e.g. the one I introduced*. Symbol is a upside
down hat with two ears sticking out. Pronounced "Wabbit" and can be used
at the end of an equation to signify that the reader is not supposed to
understand why this equation is used until later.
The need for this symbol arises from the fact that mathematical
derivations are often presented not the way the idea came up but in the
reverse order. Mainly because that appears to be the style of
mathematics: never admit that you had a brilliant idea to start with.
This practice is meant to impress the readers, but mainly results in too
many kids deciding that they will never understand mathematics.
*) I did that in the proceedings of a very small conference, so I don't
blame anyone not to have read it.
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And lo On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 22:19:32 +0100, andrel <byt### [at] gmail com>
did spake thusly:
> On 24-9-2010 10:50, Phil Cook v2 wrote:
>> And lo On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:10:44 +0100, Mike Raiford
>> <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> did spake thusly:
>>
>>> On 9/22/2010 12:02 PM, nemesis wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> neverending revelations... pi *has* uppercase... *head spins*
>>>>
>>>
>>> Greek, like Latin has both upper and lower case.
>>
>> Or to put it another way Greek like Latin has only upper case letters
>> with lower case being only a recent introduction ;-)
>>
> IIRC uppercase because you can chisel them in stone. lower case after
> starting writing regularly on things like papyrus that allows curves
> more easily.
Yup pretty much created by transcripters to speed up copying. Some of the
letters you can see how this developed Xi and Epsilon for example; Nu and
Omega on the other hand...
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Mike Raiford wrote:
> A good way to piss off your co-workers, for sure.. XD
There's no reason this should piss off your coworkers any more than
overloaded operators do. It's all essentially the same problem.
C# is just a unicode-aware programming language. You can't use any non-di
git
non-punctuation character. You can use unicode letters. Just because they
don't look like letters in *your* alphabet doesn't mean they aren't lette
rs.
That said, you probably ought have a really good reason to use non-ASCII
characters just like you ought have a good reason to overload operators.
Like, say, naming a function "Γ".
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Quoth the raven:
Need S'Mores!
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