Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> 1. You're aware that there are only 12 possible notes in existence, right?

  Chords != notes.

  (Besides, technically speaking, the western chromatic scale, which divides
the octave into 12 notes, while certainly by far the most popular, is not
the only possible way of dividing an octave into notes. And even within the
western chromatic scale there is no one *absolute* correct way of dividing
the octave into notes. See, for example, "Pythagorean tuning".)

> So there are 12 notes in the scale, each one can be major or minor, so 
> that ought to give you 24 possible chords.

  There are many more chords than just "major" and "minor". Even chords
that sound nothing like either (eg. the diminished chords).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> 1. You're aware that there are only 12 possible notes in existence, right?
> 
>   Chords != notes.

Indeed. But chords are composed of notes. Pick 3 items from 12 
possibilities and there aren't that many options available.

>   (Besides, technically speaking, the western chromatic scale, which divides
> the octave into 12 notes, while certainly by far the most popular, is not
> the only possible way of dividing an octave into notes. And even within the
> western chromatic scale there is no one *absolute* correct way of dividing
> the octave into notes. See, for example, "Pythagorean tuning".)

All of which is strictly *true*, however... in practise, all modern 
music you will hear today uses the even-tempered diatonic scale.

>> So there are 12 notes in the scale, each one can be major or minor, so 
>> that ought to give you 24 possible chords.
> 
>   There are many more chords than just "major" and "minor". Even chords
> that sound nothing like either (eg. the diminished chords).

Again true. However, the major and minor chords are vastly, vastly more 
common than any of the others. Diminished chords are vanishingly rare. 
Suspended chords and 7th chords are just variations on either a major or 
a minor chord (and usually you can replace such chords with simple 
majors or minors without significantly altering the line of the chord 
progression).

So again, in practise, you've basically got 24 chords to play with, plus 
embellishments like 7ths and suspensions.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> > Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> 1. You're aware that there are only 12 possible notes in existence, right?
> > 
> >   Chords != notes.

> Indeed. But chords are composed of notes. Pick 3 items from 12 
> possibilities and there aren't that many options available.

  Many chords consist of more than 3 notes.

  From 12 notes, there are 220 possible combinations of 3, and 495 possible
combinations of 4 notes.

  The order in which the chords are played also can make a big difference,
adding more possible combinations.

> Again true. However, the major and minor chords are vastly, vastly more 
> common than any of the others. Diminished chords are vanishingly rare. 

  Clearly you have never heard any jazz. ;)

> Suspended chords and 7th chords are just variations on either a major or 
> a minor chord (and usually you can replace such chords with simple 
> majors or minors without significantly altering the line of the chord 
> progression).

  You lose a significant part of the auditory quality and richness of the
composition.

> So again, in practise, you've basically got 24 chords to play with, plus 
> embellishments like 7ths and suspensions.

  Yes, drop all the special chords from the count simply because they are
"rarely used".

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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>>>   Chords != notes.
> 
>> Indeed. But chords are composed of notes. Pick 3 items from 12 
>> possibilities and there aren't that many options available.
> 
>   Many chords consist of more than 3 notes.
> 
>   From 12 notes, there are 220 possible combinations of 3, and 495 possible
> combinations of 4 notes.

On the other hand, F F# G is one of those 220 possible combinations, and 
that's not a sound you're ever likely to use very much of. The number of 
combinations that sound vaguely melodious is quite a bit smaller 
(although still fairly large).

>   The order in which the chords are played also can make a big difference,
> adding more possible combinations.

Well, that part is true enough. While technically it's still the same 
chord, inversions (or holding some note other than the root note in the 
bassline) can make a big difference to what the music sounds like.

>> Again true. However, the major and minor chords are vastly, vastly more 
>> common than any of the others. Diminished chords are vanishingly rare. 
> 
>   Clearly you have never heard any jazz. ;)

Hehe. I don't like jazz. ;-) (I stop short of calling it "not music", 
but you can understand why some people draw that conclusion...)

>> Suspended chords and 7th chords are just variations on either a major or 
>> a minor chord (and usually you can replace such chords with simple 
>> majors or minors without significantly altering the line of the chord 
>> progression).
> 
>   You lose a significant part of the auditory quality and richness of the
> composition.

Depends what it is. But sure, the embellishments are what make songs 
with basically the same chords sound more individual and interesting.

>   Yes, drop all the special chords from the count simply because they are
> "rarely used".

Well, again it depends on what type of music you're talking about. 
Baroque organ music contains a rather different selection of chords 
compared to Now That's What I Call Music 1985.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I don't like jazz.

  That's like saying that you don't like classical music or rock.

  Jazz is not one single style but an entire genre which spans an enormous
amount of different styles.

  If you have seen movies, there's a pretty good chance you have heard
jazz and liked it, and didn't even notice.

  For example, can you imagine something like this as the background music
of a scene in a movie? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4xy-wxc1Y0

  Don't tell me you "don't like" it, because I won't believe you.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 31/07/2010 2:24 PM, Warp wrote:
>    For example, can you imagine something like this as the background music
> of a scene in a movie?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4xy-wxc1Y0
>

Yes

>    Don't tell me you "don't like" it, because I won't believe you.

I don't like it. Well I didn't like the first 2 minutes, which was all I 
could be bothered to listen to.

-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

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Am 31.07.2010 12:53, schrieb Orchid XP v8:

> So there are 12 notes in the scale, each one can be major or minor, so
> that ought to give you 24 possible chords.

Um... not exactly. The number of possible chords is actually quite 
immense, starting from the 12*2 other ways of "stacking" three tones 

typically sound pretty disharmonic by themselves), continuing with 
adding a fourth tone at another minor and/or major third interval (e.g. 
C7, Cmaj7), and leading to chords that have non-third intervals between 
the tones (e.g. Csus4 or C5). Many of these are typically interpreted as 
variations of the basic 24 (or 48) three-note chords with minor/major 
third intervals, but still...

> However, many, many of these
> differ only very slightly from each other. Plus only 7 chords are
> "available" at any one time, unless you start using complex modulations.

Again, not exactly:

- Giving your basic set of 24 major and minor chords, you only get 6 of 
them (e.g. fitting the C scale you get C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am); the seventh 


- Beyond your basic set, you get a lot more stuff again, like e.g. 
(again fitting the C scale) Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7 and Am7, which 
are extensions to the basic chords, as well as Csus4 and Gsus4, which 

considered as a modification of G7.


And then of course there's equal-tempered vs. pythagorean vs. 
what-have-you tuning, just to make matters more fun (and I didn't even 
mention "blue notes") ;-)

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> And then of course there's equal-tempered vs. pythagorean vs. 
> what-have-you tuning, just to make matters more fun (and I didn't even 
> mention "blue notes") ;-)

Nobody seriously uses tunings other than equal-tempered. (And, FWIW, 
I've tried it, and the difference seems extremely slight.)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Am 01.08.2010 18:18, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
>> And then of course there's equal-tempered vs. pythagorean vs.
>> what-have-you tuning, just to make matters more fun (and I didn't even
>> mention "blue notes") ;-)
>
> Nobody seriously uses tunings other than equal-tempered. (And, FWIW,
> I've tried it, and the difference seems extremely slight.)

Don't church organs typically still use some older-fashioned tuning?

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>> Nobody seriously uses tunings other than equal-tempered. (And, FWIW,
>> I've tried it, and the difference seems extremely slight.)
> 
> Don't church organs typically still use some older-fashioned tuning?

I guess that would depend on how old they are? ;-)

Some of them are tuned to a reference pitch other than A4 = 440 Hz, 
though. I'll tell you that for free...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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