There's something wrong with my PC, and I don't know what to do about it.

  The CPU fan is really, really, really picky about the room temperature.
At something like 20-22 degrees celsius it's really content, and spins at
a moderately silent 2500-2700 RPM.

  Elevate the room temperature just by a few degrees, to something like 24
or 25 celsius, and the CPU fan immediately jumps to at least 3000 RPM, even
when the CPU is completely idle, and starts being annoying audible.

  A few degrees more, to something like 27-28 celsius, and the CPU fan goes
completely crazy, reaching speeds even exceeding 4000 RPM, which sounds like
a jet taking off. I'm afraid of keeping my PC running in this situation.

  At this moment the room temperature is 31 degrees celsius, the computer
case is open, the case fan is rotating at full speed (I have a case fan with
three speed settings), and I have a regular electric fan blowing air directly
inside the computer at full speed, yet the CPU fan is running at 3900 RPM,
even though the CPU is completely idle. I wouldn't even dare to try what it
does in a *normal* situation.

  In none of these situations does the actual CPU temperature exceed 50
degrees celsius. For example at this very moment it's 44 degrees. Yet the
CPU fan is going at 3900 RPM. I'm afraid of keeping the PC on for much
longer because it sounds like it's going to break at any moment.

  This isn't normal. A friend's PC runs almost silent even at these high
room temperatures. My Xbox360 runs very silently.

  I have no idea what the problem could be. Any suggestions? I can't use my
PC because I'm afraid it will break.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

>  At this moment the room temperature is 31 degrees celsius, the computer
> case is open, the case fan is rotating at full speed (I have a case fan 
> with
> three speed settings), and I have a regular electric fan blowing air 
> directly
> inside the computer at full speed, yet the CPU fan is running at 3900 RPM,
> even though the CPU is completely idle. I wouldn't even dare to try what 
> it
> does in a *normal* situation.
>
>  In none of these situations does the actual CPU temperature exceed 50
> degrees celsius. For example at this very moment it's 44 degrees. Yet the
> CPU fan is going at 3900 RPM. I'm afraid of keeping the PC on for much
> longer because it sounds like it's going to break at any moment.

The fan/BIOS is probably designed to run "silently" at CPU-idle and only 
speed up once it gets loaded.  They are probably doing this by triggering at 
a certain temperature (eg 35°C) which obviously gets messed up if your room 
is already at 31°C.  Maybe there is a setting in the BIOS to control the fan 
speed trigger temperatures?

Anyway, those temps and fan speeds seem completely normal to me (on my older 
PC the CPU fan runs at 5000 rpm the whole time).  What CPU temp do you get 
at full load?

You can buy a quieter fan if it's just the noise that's a problem.

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:

>   This isn't normal. A friend's PC runs almost silent even at these high
> room temperatures. My Xbox360 runs very silently.
> 
>   I have no idea what the problem could be. Any suggestions? I can't use my
> PC because I'm afraid it will break.

I would imagine the fan bearings are worn out. That's usually the cause 
of excessive fan noice.

The good news (??!) is that if the fan does in fact stop spinning, the 
PC should turn itself off before your CPU fries.

Post a reply to this message

On 7/13/2010 10:55 AM, Invisible wrote:

> I would imagine the fan bearings are worn out. That's usually the cause
> of excessive fan noice.

Not necessarily. If the fan just sounds like a jet engine, it's probably 
just a small fan spinning relatively fast. You may be able to get a 
quieter fan, or if your case has a spot for it, a larger fan.

> The good news (??!) is that if the fan does in fact stop spinning, the
> PC should turn itself off before your CPU fries.

Yup. Thank goodness for automatic thermal shutdown.

Heh. The other day my wife's computer (a notebook) shut down 
automatically, and she couldn't get it to come on again. I picked it up, 
and noticed two things immediately. The bottom was scorching hot, and a 
receipt flitted away as I picked up the computer.

Yeah, a receipt blocked the fan's input port. What really worried me was 
the fact that the computer had gotten so hot that even the pins on the 
VGA connector were too hot to touch! Scary... no permanent damage that I 
can determine was done to the computer.

-- 
~Mike

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Warp escreveu:
> Any suggestions?

move to Finland?

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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"nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> a écrit dans le message de news: 
4c3c9ad5$1@news.povray.org...
> Warp escreveu:
>> Any suggestions?
>
> move to Finland?
Stop releasing greenhouse gases


Marc

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> a écrit dans le message de groupe de discussion 
: 4c3c77fe@news.povray.org...
>  This isn't normal. A friend's PC runs almost silent even at these high
> room temperatures. My Xbox360 runs very silently.
>  I have no idea what the problem could be. Any suggestions? I can't use my
> PC because I'm afraid it will break.

Some years ago it happened to my (old) Dell laptop. The fans started going 
at full speed when they shouldn't have and the CPU slowed down for no good 
reason. After some googling I found that someone had developed an utility to 
control the fans manually and it worked perfectly. This utility is only for 
Precision/Dell laptops (http://www.diefer.de/i8kfan/ ) but possibly 
something like it exists for other brands.

G.

Post a reply to this message

On 13/07/2010 10:03 PM, Gilles Tran wrote:
>
> Some years ago it happened to my (old) Dell laptop. The fans started
> going at full speed when they shouldn't have and the CPU slowed down for
> no good reason. After some googling I found that someone had developed
> an utility to control the fans manually and it worked perfectly. This
> utility is only for Precision/Dell laptops (http://www.diefer.de/i8kfan/
> ) but possibly something like it exists for other brands.

I use the free program Speedfan.

http://www.almico.com/speedfan.php

-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message 
news:4c3c77fe@news.povray.org...
>  There's something wrong with my PC, and I don't know what to do about it.
>
>  The CPU fan is really, really, really picky about the room temperature.
> At something like 20-22 degrees celsius it's really content, and spins at
> a moderately silent 2500-2700 RPM.
>
>  Elevate the room temperature just by a few degrees, to something like 24
> or 25 celsius, and the CPU fan immediately jumps to at least 3000 RPM, 
> even
> when the CPU is completely idle, and starts being annoying audible.
>
>  A few degrees more, to something like 27-28 celsius, and the CPU fan goes
> completely crazy, reaching speeds even exceeding 4000 RPM, which sounds 
> like
> a jet taking off. I'm afraid of keeping my PC running in this situation.
>
>  At this moment the room temperature is 31 degrees celsius, the computer
> case is open, the case fan is rotating at full speed (I have a case fan 
> with
> three speed settings), and I have a regular electric fan blowing air 
> directly
> inside the computer at full speed, yet the CPU fan is running at 3900 RPM,
> even though the CPU is completely idle. I wouldn't even dare to try what 
> it
> does in a *normal* situation.
>
>  In none of these situations does the actual CPU temperature exceed 50
> degrees celsius. For example at this very moment it's 44 degrees. Yet the
> CPU fan is going at 3900 RPM. I'm afraid of keeping the PC on for much
> longer because it sounds like it's going to break at any moment.
>
>  This isn't normal. A friend's PC runs almost silent even at these high
> room temperatures. My Xbox360 runs very silently.
>
>  I have no idea what the problem could be. Any suggestions? I can't use my
> PC because I'm afraid it will break.
>
> -- 
>                                                          - Warp

Get a Zalman cooler, run it at lowest fan speed settings and enjoy a silent 
computer that doesn't over heat.

Cheers Dre

Post a reply to this message

>> I would imagine the fan bearings are worn out. That's usually the cause
>> of excessive fan noice.
> 
> Not necessarily. If the fan just sounds like a jet engine, it's probably 
> just a small fan spinning relatively fast. You may be able to get a 
> quieter fan, or if your case has a spot for it, a larger fan.

 From the way Warp phrased it, I got the impression that this PC *was* 
working fine, and now it's suddenly started doing this.

Usual reason for that is worn out bearings.

> Heh. The other day my wife's computer (a notebook) shut down 
> automatically, and she couldn't get it to come on again. I picked it up, 
> and noticed two things immediately. The bottom was scorching hot, and a 
> receipt flitted away as I picked up the computer.
> 
> Yeah, a receipt blocked the fan's input port. What really worried me was 
> the fact that the computer had gotten so hot that even the pins on the 
> VGA connector were too hot to touch! Scary... no permanent damage that I 
> can determine was done to the computer.

I tried to install Linux on my dad's laptop, and had an interesting 
experience. The installer kept crashing at random points with random 
error messages. Tried several times and it just wouldn't work. Then I 
noticed that the underside of the machine was scalding hot. The fan 
wasn't spinning at all. We assumed it was broken.

Then we rebooted the laptop, and immediately the fan started spinning 
like crazy. I left it on the BIOS screen, and the fan's spinning away, 
and I'm watching the temperature stats. Eventually the fan starts to 
slow down, and eventually it completely stops spinning.

So I load up the Linux installer and start again. Same deal. Eventually 
it crashes, and the laptop is once again burning hot, with no fan activity.

So I reboot it, and the fan starts spinning like crazy. I immediately go 
back into the Linux installer, and start installing. Here's the thing - 
the fan stays spinning at maximum speed, even long after the laptop is 
stone cold.

Yes, that's right. THE FAN IS CONTROLLED IN SOFTWARE! How retarded is 
that? Surely this is a serious fire hazard...

Still, it was a very old laptop. (Actually, it still is.)

Post a reply to this message

> Yes, that's right. THE FAN IS CONTROLLED IN SOFTWARE! How retarded is 
> that? Surely this is a serious fire hazard...

No, because the machine will switch off (which is in hardware) long before 
the chance of any fire breaking out.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> Yes, that's right. THE FAN IS CONTROLLED IN SOFTWARE! How retarded is 
>> that? Surely this is a serious fire hazard...
> 
> No, because the machine will switch off (which is in hardware) long 
> before the chance of any fire breaking out.

As I say, the laptop let itself get hot enough to randomly malfunction 
without turning off. What makes you think it would turn off at some even 
higher temperature?

(A more likely scenario is that whatever program it's running would 
crash, causing the CPU to halt and therefore cool down again.)

Post a reply to this message

>> No, because the machine will switch off (which is in hardware) long 
>> before the chance of any fire breaking out.
>
> As I say, the laptop let itself get hot enough to randomly malfunction 
> without turning off. What makes you think it would turn off at some even 
> higher temperature?

Because that's what CPUs are designed to do.  It was probably the RAM that 
was overheating giving corrupt data to the CPU.

Post a reply to this message

On 7/14/2010 3:08 AM, Invisible wrote:


> Yes, that's right. THE FAN IS CONTROLLED IN SOFTWARE! How retarded is
> that? Surely this is a serious fire hazard...

Most can be controlled by software. Usually the BIOS is in charge, but 
programs can also alter the fan speed. This is useful for more advanced 
monitoring programs like SpeedFan.

My system at home has 4 fan ports on the motherboard (3 case, one CPU, 
the CPU and 2 of the case fans can be controlled by PWM)

-- 
~Mike

Post a reply to this message

On 7/14/2010 4:36 AM, scott wrote:


> Because that's what CPUs are designed to do. It was probably the RAM
> that was overheating giving corrupt data to the CPU.

Yep... There's usually a thermal sensor either on the die or on the 
motherboard.

Some older AMD's I believe rely on the mobo's thermal shutdown. an AMD 
chip can be damaged by heat before the mobo registers a problem. On the 
Intel side, the chip will throttle down to a snails pace to try to 
control the heat, if that doesn't work, it'll tell the mobo to shut off.

I'm not sure about the newer AMDs.

Another interesting thing that's fun to watch: On the later Intel Core2 
chips, they have an adaptive multiplier. When the CPU is idle, it will 
reduce its clock rate to save on energy and keep cooler when idle.

-- 
~Mike

Post a reply to this message

>> Because that's what CPUs are designed to do. It was probably the RAM
>> that was overheating giving corrupt data to the CPU.
> 
> Yep... There's usually a thermal sensor either on the die or on the 
> motherboard.
> 
> Some older AMD's I believe rely on the mobo's thermal shutdown. an AMD 
> chip can be damaged by heat before the mobo registers a problem.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/hot-spot,365-5.html

demonstrates how older AMDs had *no* thermal protection at all. They 
even have a video of one of the CPUs actually smoking and glowing. Can 
you spell "fire hazard"?

> I'm not sure about the newer AMDs.

They added thermal protection a long, long time ago.

> Another interesting thing that's fun to watch: On the later Intel Core2 
> chips, they have an adaptive multiplier. When the CPU is idle, it will 
> reduce its clock rate to save on energy and keep cooler when idle.

Yeah, most processors do that now (especially "mobile" ones). Initially 
they just made it so that a certain temperature, the system powers off. 
But later they had adjustable fan speeds and adjustable clock speeds, 
and switching off cores and so on.

I'm still puzzled about this laptop though. Considering that fan control 
is both trivially simple and utterly safety critical, why is it 
controlled by the OS? Why isn't it hard-wired?

Post a reply to this message

On 7/14/2010 7:34 AM, Invisible wrote:

> I'm still puzzled about this laptop though. Considering that fan control
> is both trivially simple and utterly safety critical, why is it
> controlled by the OS? Why isn't it hard-wired?

Generally the OS isn't in charge of the fan. Perhaps the linux distro 
you're using detects the chipset and grabs control of the fan?

-- 
~Mike

Post a reply to this message

>> I'm still puzzled about this laptop though. Considering that fan control
>> is both trivially simple and utterly safety critical, why is it
>> controlled by the OS? Why isn't it hard-wired?
> 
> Generally the OS isn't in charge of the fan. Perhaps the linux distro 
> you're using detects the chipset and grabs control of the fan?

Why should it even be possible to control it in software? The correct 
algorithm is simple: set the fan to the lowest setting that gives 
acceptable cooling. Why would you want to be able to control it in 
software at all?

(As it happens, once Linux was installed, the fan worked normally. Just 
not while the installer was running...)

Post a reply to this message

> Why should it even be possible to control it in software?

Because there's usually an IC on the motherboard that reads the temperatures 
and controls the fan PWM.  This is mapped to memory so that the BIOS can 
control it.  Obviously this means any software running (an OS, a special 
program, etc) can also take control.

> The correct algorithm is simple: set the fan to the lowest setting that 
> gives acceptable cooling.

That's what it does!  But you have to take into account that there are many 
different fan and CPU combinations that will be used on a motherboard, not 
giving the option to change the settings would be a bit limiting.  (Plus it 
would make it hard for the BIOS to setup the IC, currently it just writes 
the data to a certain memory address).

> Why would you want to be able to control it in software at all?

How else do you propose doing it, that isn't 10x more expensive than the 
current method?

Post a reply to this message

scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> The fan/BIOS is probably designed to run "silently" at CPU-idle and only 
> speed up once it gets loaded.  They are probably doing this by triggering at 
> a certain temperature (eg 35°C) which obviously gets messed up if your room 
> is already at 31°C.  Maybe there is a setting in the BIOS to control the fan 
> speed trigger temperatures?

  Actually someone else (IRL) suggested checking the BIOS settings for the
CPU fan, so I did so.

  There's some kind of setting which makes the CPU fan target for a certain
maximum CPU temperature. This setting was disabled, so I don't know what the
CPU fan was doing. I tried enabling this (and the default target maximum
temperature seems to be 66 degrees, so I left it like that), and now the
PC is incredibly silent, yet the CPU keeps quite cool when idle (2500 RPM,
47 degrees celsius) even though the room temperature is still unbearably
high (30 degrees celsius at the moment).

  I'm monitoring closely the CPU temperature and fan speed, but it seems to
be quite stable. And incredibly silent.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Warp wrote:

> >   This isn't normal. A friend's PC runs almost silent even at these high
> > room temperatures. My Xbox360 runs very silently.
> > 
> >   I have no idea what the problem could be. Any suggestions? I can't use my
> > PC because I'm afraid it will break.

> I would imagine the fan bearings are worn out. That's usually the cause 
> of excessive fan noice.

  You didn't understand. I didn't mean to say that the CPU fan noise is
not normal. I said that the fan going at 4000 RPM is not normal (because
its normal speed is somewhere around 2500 RPM).

  Anyways, so far it seems that a BIOS setting fixed the problem.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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