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And lo On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:32:25 +0100, scott <sco### [at] scott com> did
spake thusly:
>> To reiterate: Apparently before the invention of the printing press,
>> words didn't have standard spellings. People just wrote them down
>> however seemed right at the time, making up the spellings as they went
>> along. It's only when printing started the mass dissemination of
>> written material that words acquired fixed spellings. So it's only
>> after this point in time that silent letters could have survived.
>
> Why couldn't words have been spelt before printing presses with silent
> letters? It's probably precisely the fact that words were spelt in many
> ways that led to some unusual spellings becoming "standard".
To put it another way how do you know they were silent letters, how many
voice recordings were there in the 17th century? Words such as knife might
have entered as the standard spelling because the k was still pronounced
at the time. Or it may well have been that 'everyone knows knife is spelt
with a k' even if it wasn't voiced.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook v2 wrote:
> To put it another way how do you know they were silent letters, how many
> voice recordings were there in the 17th century? Words such as knife
> might have entered as the standard spelling because the k was still
> pronounced at the time.
Except that it's impossible to pronounce that.
The only thing I can think of is if there used to be another vowel in
there which has slowly vanished or something.
> Or it may well have been that 'everyone knows
> knife is spelt with a k' even if it wasn't voiced.
As I say, I got the impression that this whole idea of words having a
fixed spelling didn't exist until printing came along. Like, ask five
different people and they'd spell the word five different ways. (And
probably pronounce it differently too, come to think of it.)
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Invisible wrote:
> As I say, I got the impression that this whole idea of words having a
> fixed spelling didn't exist until printing came along.
Benjamin Franklin (late 1700s) was big on making things spelled
consistently. We were taught in grade school that "Benjamin Franklin
invented spelling", but I'm not finding support for that online.
> Like, ask five
> different people and they'd spell the word five different ways. (And
> probably pronounce it differently too, come to think of it.)
And spell it several different ways in the same paragraph, for that matter.
I think Shakespeare tended to spell things pretty randomly, for example.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
C# - a language whose greatest drawback
is that its best implementation comes
from a company that doesn't hate Microsoft.
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On 12/07/2010 5:13 PM, Darren New wrote:
> And spell it several different ways in the same paragraph, for that
> matter. I think Shakespeare tended to spell things pretty randomly, for
> example.
Including his own name.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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4c3b387e$1@news.povray.org...
> Phil Cook v2 wrote:
>
>> To put it another way how do you know they were silent letters, how many
>> voice recordings were there in the 17th century? Words such as knife
>> might have entered as the standard spelling because the k was still
>> pronounced at the time.
>
> Except that it's impossible to pronounce that.
>
It is not because your tongue is not trained at doing a sound that it is
impossible
listen at Xhosa click language :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_l7ty_MH_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZlp-croVYw
Marc
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Am Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:45:02 +0100 schrieb Invisible:
> Phil Cook v2 wrote:
>
>> To put it another way how do you know they were silent letters, how
>> many voice recordings were there in the 17th century? Words such as
>> knife might have entered as the standard spelling because the k was
>> still pronounced at the time.
>
> Except that it's impossible to pronounce that.
It is possible! In german we have words such as
Knopf, Knall, knistern, Knüller
If you want, I could provide audio samples to prove that both k and n are
pronounced without vowel between them in this cases (although I guess you
could argue, that it froms a new consonant although I would disagree)
>
> The only thing I can think of is if there used to be another vowel in
> there which has slowly vanished or something.
>
>> Or it may well have been that 'everyone knows knife is spelt with a k'
>> even if it wasn't voiced.
>
> As I say, I got the impression that this whole idea of words having a
> fixed spelling didn't exist until printing came along. Like, ask five
> different people and they'd spell the word five different ways. (And
> probably pronounce it differently too, come to think of it.)
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>> Except that it's impossible to pronounce that.
>
> It is possible! In german we have words such as
>
> Knopf, Knall, knistern, Knüller
Yeah, but I would imagine that the pronounciation rules for German are
radically different to English anyway.
In Welsh there are words that contain no vowels at all. (Then again,
have you ever heard those people "speak"?)
> If you want, I could provide audio samples to prove that both k and n are
> pronounced without vowel between them in this cases (although I guess you
> could argue, that it froms a new consonant although I would disagree)
I believe I still have an MP3 file on my PC featuring your voice gently
utterly "Lieblich Gedackt"...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 12/07/2010 6:26 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
> Yeah, but I would imagine that the pronounciation rules for German are
> radically different to English anyway.
>
Why?
> In Welsh there are words that contain no vowels at all. (Then again,
> have you ever heard those people "speak"?)
Yes.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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>> Yeah, but I would imagine that the pronounciation rules for German are
>> radically different to English anyway.
>>
>
> Why?
Because it's an entirely different language?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:45:02 +0100, Invisible wrote:
> Except that it's impossible to pronounce that.
Knife? Sure:
k'neyefeh
(that also covers the trailing silent 'e').
Sounds a little like Klingon, granted, but it is certainly pronounceable.
Jim
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