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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> This is the part I don't get. Mounting more chips on a board costs
> money, but making an ASIC costs orders of magnitude *more* money.
It really doesn't. When I was in college, the guys learning how to do this
had runs of 10 chips at a time at a fab to test out their designs. It's
really not as expensive as you think.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Am 12.06.2010 18:08, schrieb Nicolas Alvarez:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> You know, every time you have one of these conversations, I can't help
>>> but imagine your cutting edge technology is this:
>>>
>>> http://theradiokitchen.net/wp-content/uploads/image/80scellphone.gif
>>
>> Actually this:
>>
>> http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=nokia+2760
>
> Advanced! This is mine:
> http://www.google.com/images?q=nokia+1208
>
Advanced, too! This is mine:
http://www.google.com/images?q=aeg+fono+style
Guess what - it even features SMS, a built-in vibration alert, and two
mini-games... :-P
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nemesis wrote:
> Yet you guys underestimate how much work goes into trying to develop things like
> Global Illumination or Participating Media in real time for games.
I don't! I had no idea how such things were done until I started studying
it, and now I have a good appreciation of the limits of what the chip can
actually do. :-)
> Designing a GPU for PS4 may sound glamurous, but I guess if you were the
> japanese guy working 30 hours a day under lots of pressure you'd actually think
> of suicide... :P
Oh, I don't know that designing the hardware sounds fun. That sounds tedious
as hell, to me.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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clipka wrote:
> Advanced, too! This is mine:
People ask me what kind of phone I have. I tell them "the kind that doesn't
have airplane mode."
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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>> This is the part I don't get. Mounting more chips on a board costs
>> money, but making an ASIC costs orders of magnitude *more* money.
>
> It really doesn't. When I was in college, the guys learning how to do
> this had runs of 10 chips at a time at a fab to test out their designs.
> It's really not as expensive as you think.
I thought the whole idea of FPGAs is that you don't have to spend
$80,000 on a run of ASICs just to see if it works...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>>> ZOMG, are you from Mars?!
>>>
>>> it's been its killer feature upon launch time!
>>
>> And since I don't own or want to own an iPhone, why would I know about
>> this?
>
> Maybe by keeping your eyes and ears open to what's going on around you?
I don't own an iPhone, I've never (knowingly) met anybody else who owns
an iPhone. (I was under the impression that it's extortionately
expsensive due to how shiny it is.) And I don't watch TV (probably the
only place it's advertised), so... why would I know much about it?
(Other than having heard that it exists, anyway.)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> Well, as I say, when you never achieve anything, it doesn't boost your
>> confidence very much. (And hell, even when I do manage to do something
>> moderately impressive, nobody seems to be impressed.)
>
> Don't expect others to boost your confidence.
>
> And don't measure your achievements by looking at famous people, or
> goals still far beyond your reach - instead, measure your achievements
> by looking back at where you started from.
Attending a beginner's dance class the other day was interesting...
watching all those people struggling over the "filler" moves I use when
I'm trying to decide what my next *real* move is going to be.
Still, if it doesn't impress anybody else, what's the point?
> Seriously, STFU. That's the first step to more self-confidence: If you
> can't find anything positive to say about yourself, don't say anything,
> and just STFU.
Well... my mother always said "if you don't have anything nice to say,
don't say anything". Maybe I need to apply that to talking about me?
(Actually, my mother never once said that. What she *did* say a lot was
"Oi! Tidy your room!!" And - oh, damnit! >_< )
Aside: Every time I see "STFU", it looks like "stuff you"...
> Could it be that being a loser once used to be a way for you to gain
> something? Attention perhaps?
>
> Gee, and we're delivering just that right now...
From what I've seen, *not* being a loser gets you way, way more
attention. Of a more satisfying kind. (Although not _all_ necessarily
good...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Am 12.06.2010 19:29, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
>> It really doesn't. When I was in college, the guys learning how to do
>> this had runs of 10 chips at a time at a fab to test out their
>> designs. It's really not as expensive as you think.
>
> I thought the whole idea of FPGAs is that you don't have to spend
> $80,000 on a run of ASICs just to see if it works...
FPGAs are pretty limited in capability compared to ASICs.
As for ASIC prototype costs, maybe prototype costs can be cut
considerably by using a "pool" manufacturing approach, by sharing wafer
space with other customers who need totally different ASIC prototypes to
be produced. I know it's done for PCB production (I've already used such
a service just to avoid etching & drilling my own double-sided PCBs for
some hobby projects), so I see no basic reason why it shouldn't work in
ASIC production as well.
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Am 12.06.2010 18:42, schrieb Darren New:
> clipka wrote:
>> Advanced, too! This is mine:
>
> People ask me what kind of phone I have. I tell them "the kind that
> doesn't have airplane mode."
Press the power button for a few seconds, until the device turns off.
There: Airplane mode ;-)
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Actually this:
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=nokia+2760
By the way, you have *no idea* how long it took me to figure out the
model number. It's not written anywhere! >_<
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Am 12.06.2010 19:31, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
>>> And since I don't own or want to own an iPhone, why would I know about
>>> this?
>>
>> Maybe by keeping your eyes and ears open to what's going on around you?
>
> I don't own an iPhone, I've never (knowingly) met anybody else who owns
> an iPhone. (I was under the impression that it's extortionately
> expsensive due to how shiny it is.) And I don't watch TV (probably the
> only place it's advertised), so... why would I know much about it?
> (Other than having heard that it exists, anyway.)
I don't own an iPhone either, I've never knowingly met anybody else who
owns one either until yesterday (and I didn't see the guy use the
touchscreen), I don't even own a TV set, and only very rarely do I turn
on the radio. Still I've heard of its touchscreen capabilities.
Computer magazines?
Searching through the internerds because you're curious what's so
special about the iPhone that everybody's talking about it?
Leaving that aside, the iPhone is not the first consumer device to come
with a touchscreen - PDAs have been featuring touchscreens at least
since 2002.
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clipka wrote:
> Leaving that aside, the iPhone is not the first consumer device to come
> with a touchscreen - PDAs have been featuring touchscreens at least
> since 2002.
I thought most PDAs come with a stylus? (Or they have a useless
trackball like that Blackberry I had the misfortune of needing to
configure...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> >> I wasn't aware that the iPhone has a touch-screen. (I hadn't really
> >> thought about it...)
> >
> > ZOMG, are you from Mars?!
> >
> > it's been its killer feature upon launch time!
>
> And since I don't own or want to own an iPhone, why would I know about this?
neither do I, yet it was so heavily hyped that I can't believe someone in this
planet would not know about it.
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's Saturday morning and *yet
> again* I'm sitting all alone in my bedroom feeling bored and lonely,
> with nowhere to go and nobody to talk to. Perhaps I just need to go
> listen to some more Neil Sekada or something...
perhaps you need a baby. More than a woman, having to feed a baby should boost
your morale...
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Am 12.06.2010 19:38, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
> Well... my mother always said "if you don't have anything nice to say,
> don't say anything". Maybe I need to apply that to talking about me?
Yup. It /does/ have an effect.
>> Could it be that being a loser once used to be a way for you to gain
>> something? Attention perhaps?
>>
>> Gee, and we're delivering just that right now...
>
> From what I've seen, *not* being a loser gets you way, way more
> attention. Of a more satisfying kind. (Although not _all_ necessarily
> good...)
/Knowing/ a fact does not necessarily prevent people from acting
according to earlier contrary conditioning. In early childhood (and even
later in life), people learn a lot that they're not even aware of, some
of which may be pretty bogus.
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> clipka wrote:
>
> > Leaving that aside, the iPhone is not the first consumer device to come
> > with a touchscreen - PDAs have been featuring touchscreens at least
> > since 2002.
>
> I thought most PDAs come with a stylus? (Or they have a useless
> trackball like that Blackberry I had the misfortune of needing to
> configure...)
true. The iPhone is no mere touchscreen: it's multitouch. :)
You may zoom in and out of photos by using two fingers at once to make it bigger
or smaller.
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Am 12.06.2010 20:57, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
> clipka wrote:
>
>> Leaving that aside, the iPhone is not the first consumer device to
>> come with a touchscreen - PDAs have been featuring touchscreens at
>> least since 2002.
>
> I thought most PDAs come with a stylus? (Or they have a useless
> trackball like that Blackberry I had the misfortune of needing to
> configure...)
They typically do - but AFAIK each and every PDA sold today can also be
operated with fingers, toothpicks or whatever if needs be. And at least
/my/ PDA with integrated phone I owned back in 2002 was
"finger-sensitive", too.
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Am 12.06.2010 21:02, schrieb nemesis:
> Orchid XP v8<voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's Saturday morning and *yet
>> again* I'm sitting all alone in my bedroom feeling bored and lonely,
>> with nowhere to go and nobody to talk to. Perhaps I just need to go
>> listen to some more Neil Sekada or something...
>
> perhaps you need a baby. More than a woman, having to feed a baby should boost
> your morale...
Uh... for the sake of the baby, maybe he should start with a pet >_<
And no - don't go for a hamster, or anything with a short lifespan...
they're not too encouraging I guess... I'm thinking more along the lines
of a dog. Cats are probably no good either: They tend to look down on
you no matter how great you are.
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clipka wrote:
> Am 12.06.2010 21:02, schrieb nemesis:
>> Orchid XP v8<voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's Saturday morning and *yet
>>> again* I'm sitting all alone in my bedroom feeling bored and lonely,
>>> with nowhere to go and nobody to talk to. Perhaps I just need to go
>>> listen to some more Neil Sekada or something...
>>
>> perhaps you need a baby. More than a woman, having to feed a baby
>> should boost
>> your morale...
>
> Uh... for the sake of the baby, maybe he should start with a pet >_<
>
> And no - don't go for a hamster, or anything with a short lifespan...
> they're not too encouraging I guess... I'm thinking more along the lines
> of a dog. Cats are probably no good either: They tend to look down on
> you no matter how great you are.
Maybe start with a stuffed animal?
Not all cats are elitist fuzz-and-claws. Some fuss when they are more
than an arms length away from someone. Mine yowls when he has to use his
litter in the middle of the night, since it means leaving the room.
Howls on the way out and back, just to wake me up and let me know that I
am missed. Could do without that, actually.
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Stephen wrote:
>> But you’ve got to believe in yourself and take opportunities that show
>> up. Life isn’t easy, I’ve found that it is a fight all the way. Try
>> not to give into despair.
>
> I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's Saturday morning and *yet
> again* I'm sitting all alone in my bedroom feeling bored and lonely,
> with nowhere to go and nobody to talk to. Perhaps I just need to go
> listen to some more Neil Sekada or something...
>
Don't listen to bored and lonely music when you are bored and lonely.
Occasionally is one thing, but you get in a habit of that and it's bad
for your moods. Feedback cycles. Experience taught me not to listen to
The Weakerthans while upset.
I recommend upbeat synth-pop if you can stand it.
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On 12/06/2010 9:47 PM, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Not all cats are elitist fuzz-and-claws. Some fuss when they are more
> than an arms length away from someone. Mine yowls when he has to use his
> litter in the middle of the night, since it means leaving the room.
> Howls on the way out and back, just to wake me up and let me know that I
> am missed. Could do without that, actually.
He’s just being polite, letting you know where he is. You can’t
criticise politeness. :-)
Have you tried talking back to him?
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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>> I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's Saturday morning and *yet
>> again* I'm sitting all alone in my bedroom feeling bored and lonely,
>> with nowhere to go and nobody to talk to. Perhaps I just need to go
>> listen to some more Neil Sekada or something...
>>
>
> Don't listen to bored and lonely music when you are bored and lonely.
Apparently I'm listening to a different Neil Sedaka than everybody
else... The one I have is like liquified sunshine in a bottle.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 6/10/2010 3:40 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> and you say you're a retard... o_O
>
> Well, I _did_ just spend several weeks building a simulated model of a
> trivially simple computer when I could just, uh, use a real one...
>
> When you think about the amount of _useful_ stuff I could have done with
> that much time and energy, you start to understand why I feel
> unfulfilled with my life. :-(
>
Are you going to re-create the model in Dwarf Fortress? :P
--
http://isometricland.com
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...so anybody have anything to say about the design itself? ;-)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Am 13.06.2010 12:44, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
> ...so anybody have anything to say about the design itself? ;-)
* Did you think about how to implement a stack (and subroutine calls)?
* The address space is not only piffling, but outright insufficient,
especially given the limited instruction set; some things you could do
about it:
- As your commands are all 2 bytes wide, you can require that they be
16-bit aligned, so you can increase address space available for programs
to 512 bytes (=256 instructions).
- You could further increase the total address space by separating code
from data (Harvard architecture), using two separate "Read" control
lines. (The CPU could still easily be used in von-Neumann-Mode by ORing
the two "Read" lines externally.)
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clipka wrote:
> * Did you think about how to implement a stack (and subroutine calls)?
Yes: With great difficulty. ;-)
There are instructions to load and save the PC. Your "stack pointer" is
going to be a RAM register rather than a CPU register. You'll have to
manually incriment/decriment it, which will be absurdly tedious. But it
can be done.
> * The address space is not only piffling, but outright insufficient,
> especially given the limited instruction set;
Well, there is that.
I'm not seriously expecting to make a usable computer out of it. I'll
just be amazed if it actually ****ing works at all! Currently it works
in the simulator, but I don't think the simulator is taking gate delays
into account, and I'm really not sure how that affects all the
edge-triggered circuits I've used. (!!) There's also the minor detail
that even the trivial little design I have now is going to take an
absurd number of gates to realise in hardware...
> some things you could do about it:
>
> - As your commands are all 2 bytes wide, you can require that they be
> 16-bit aligned, so you can increase address space available for programs
> to 512 bytes (=256 instructions).
In other words, make memory 16-bit addressible rather than 8-bit
addressible.
> - Harvard architecture.
That could work...
The other possibility, of course, is to just connect up more address
lines. Makes little or no difference in software, but in hardware I
suddenly have to put a hell of a lot more wires together. ;-)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Am 13.06.2010 16:23, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
>> - As your commands are all 2 bytes wide, you can require that they be
>> 16-bit aligned, so you can increase address space available for
>> programs to 512 bytes (=256 instructions).
>
> In other words, make memory 16-bit addressible rather than 8-bit
> addressible.
Well, you could do /that/, too, but I was merely thinking of making the
memory 9-bit addressable, by using a 9-bit program counter and
automatically shifting the value left by 1 bit (filling with zero) when
loading an 8-bit value into the PC.
> The other possibility, of course, is to just connect up more address
> lines. Makes little or no difference in software, but in hardware I
> suddenly have to put a hell of a lot more wires together. ;-)
Sure ;-)
You should really have a look at FPGAs if you want to save the money,
time and hassle of wiring up a hell lot of 74xx gates.
If you want to go for classic 5V logic and thru-hole mounting (as
opposed to SMD), maybe you won't find a suitably "sized" FPGA to fit
your whole CPU inside, but you should surely find some PLCC-packaged 5V
or 3V-5V FPGA to fit at least the complete control matrix; I'd suggest
the Lattice ispMACH 4A5-64/32 44-pin PLCC for the job, which will give
you up to 32 I/O pins with optional in- and/or output flip-flops, 2 more
input-only pins, plus 32 bits worth of flip-flops for internal registers.
That would leave you with one 74xx for each register and each of the ALU
functionalities to wire up, which should lessen the pain already.
Alternatively, you could use another ispMACH for the ALU (which might
also include the X, Y and Z registers), and (if required) a third one
for all the rest.
Or, if you know how to solder SMD packages (or know someone to do that
for you), you could go for something bigger, such as an ispMACH
4A5-128/64 or 4A5-192/96, which should allow you to do all in one chip
(except the main memory).
(The ispMACH 4 series is officially discontinued - which is a pity
because I think the M4A5-64/32 was ideal for experimenting given that it
runs on 5V and fits in inexpensive thru-hole mounted sockets - but some
devices, including the M4A5-64/32 PLCC, are still available even in
stock at Lattice, at prices of about 5$ apiece.)
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>>> - As your commands are all 2 bytes wide, you can require that they be
>>> 16-bit aligned, so you can increase address space available for
>>> programs to 512 bytes (=256 instructions).
>>
>> In other words, make memory 16-bit addressible rather than 8-bit
>> addressible.
>
> Well, you could do /that/, too, but I was merely thinking of making the
> memory 9-bit addressable, by using a 9-bit program counter and
> automatically shifting the value left by 1 bit (filling with zero) when
> loading an 8-bit value into the PC.
Oh right, I see...
>> The other possibility, of course, is to just connect up more address
>> lines. Makes little or no difference in software, but in hardware I
>> suddenly have to put a hell of a lot more wires together. ;-)
>
> Sure ;-)
I did briefly entertain the idea of a 4-bit design. Certainly my CPU
loads 16 bits from RAM on every instruction cycle, yet has only 17 valid
opcodes (not 2^16 or even 2^8). On the other hand, a 4-bit address space
is about as useful as... um...
> You should really have a look at FPGAs if you want to save the money,
> time and hassle of wiring up a hell lot of 74xx gates.
I have a sinking feeling that if I went to the [extreme] expensive of
getting an FPGA rig, I'd probably then find that I'm too stupid to make
it do anything anyway! :-/
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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SharkD wrote:
> Are you going to re-create the model in Dwarf Fortress? :P
Did you see the post about making DF turing complete? Apparently you can
connect waterfalls or dwarfs or something to do NAND gates and build an
entire computer out of it.
Oh, there it is. GIYF.
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/15/colossal-turing-mach.html
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> manually incriment/decriment it, which will be absurdly tedious. But it
Welcome to writing a FORTH interpreter on the 6502!
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> manually incriment/decriment it, which will be absurdly tedious. But it
>
> Welcome to writing a FORTH interpreter on the 6502!
What ever happened to FIRST?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> Are you going to re-create the model in Dwarf Fortress? :P
>
> Did you see the post about making DF turing complete? Apparently you can
> connect waterfalls or dwarfs or something to do NAND gates and build an
> entire computer out of it.
And people tell *us* we're stupid for building a Turing-complete ray
tracer???
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Am 13.06.2010 20:00, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
> I have a sinking feeling that if I went to the [extreme] expensive of
> getting an FPGA rig, I'd probably then find that I'm too stupid to make
> it do anything anyway! :-/
Nonsense.
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BTW, I guess it's possible to build an extremely-reduced-instruction-set
computer with just a single instruction: "Move", reading a data word
from one memory address and then storing it in another. All you'd have
to do would be to map math-op logic to a few dedicated memory locations;
e.g. reading from address 0003 might return the sum of the values stored
in 0000, 0001, address 0004 might return their difference, address 0005
might return the logical AND of memory locations 0000 and 0001, etc.
Even the PC might be stored in one particular address, so writing to
that would constitute an unconditional jump. A conditional branch could
be modeled by reading a status bit, expanding it to all bits of a word
(i.e. 0000 or FFFF), computing the logical AND of that mask and one
target address, as well as the logical AND of the mask's inverse and the
other target address, computing the sum or logical OR of both results,
and ultimately writing that value to the PC. (Alternatively a particular
bit in a particular memory address could specify whether the next
command is to be skipped or not.)
The Apollo guidance computer actually used such an approach for various
mathematical operations.
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clipka wrote:
> BTW, I guess it's possible to build an extremely-reduced-instruction-set
> computer with just a single instruction: "Move", reading a data word
> from one memory address and then storing it in another. All you'd have
> to do would be to map math-op logic to a few dedicated memory locations;
> e.g. reading from address 0003 might return the sum of the values stored
> in 0000, 0001, address 0004 might return their difference, address 0005
> might return the logical AND of memory locations 0000 and 0001, etc.
> Even the PC might be stored in one particular address, so writing to
> that would constitute an unconditional jump. A conditional branch could
> be modeled by reading a status bit, expanding it to all bits of a word
> (i.e. 0000 or FFFF), computing the logical AND of that mask and one
> target address, as well as the logical AND of the mask's inverse and the
> other target address, computing the sum or logical OR of both results,
> and ultimately writing that value to the PC. (Alternatively a particular
> bit in a particular memory address could specify whether the next
> command is to be skipped or not.)
>
> The Apollo guidance computer actually used such an approach for various
> mathematical operations.
That's hardcore RISC, man! :-D
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> I have a sinking feeling that if I went to the [extreme] expensive of
>> getting an FPGA rig, I'd probably then find that I'm too stupid to make
>> it do anything anyway! :-/
>
> Nonsense.
Well, the expensive bit is true enough. I just re-checked the Xilinx
website and I can't find any starter kits for less than about $200.
You'd have to buy *a lot* of 7400 chips to approach that price tag.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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> That's hardcore RISC, man! :-D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer
You're not kidding. There isn't any need for an opcode field.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Stephen wrote:
> On 12/06/2010 9:47 PM, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>> Not all cats are elitist fuzz-and-claws. Some fuss when they are more
>> than an arms length away from someone. Mine yowls when he has to use his
>> litter in the middle of the night, since it means leaving the room.
>> Howls on the way out and back, just to wake me up and let me know that I
>> am missed. Could do without that, actually.
>
> He’s just being polite, letting you know where he is. You can’t
> criticise politeness. :-)
>
> Have you tried talking back to him?
>
>
Of course. He only responds if I mimic his last type of meow, though. If
a person did that I would think I was getting language lessons.
Anthropomorphizing just leads to new scars, though, as he may not be
elitist but he is still all fuzz-and-claws.
While teaching a cat to fetch, it is very fundamental that they
understand the concept that fetching is "getting the ball while it is
not in your owners hand." When that part isn't taught properly, ouch.
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Are you going to re-create the model in Dwarf Fortress? :P
>>
>> Did you see the post about making DF turing complete? Apparently you
>> can connect waterfalls or dwarfs or something to do NAND gates and
>> build an entire computer out of it.
>
> And people tell *us* we're stupid for building a Turing-complete ray
> tracer???
>
I don't know that it was intentional. Allowing water to control
floodgates seems simple enough, the small step of allowing it to control
other paths of water just jumps it from simple simulation into "wtf are
these people doing?" territory.
If I can survive the next siege, my megaproject is a multi-level full
sky cistern. Controlled obsidian rainfall. Very dwarven, I think.
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's Saturday morning and *yet
>>> again* I'm sitting all alone in my bedroom feeling bored and lonely,
>>> with nowhere to go and nobody to talk to. Perhaps I just need to go
>>> listen to some more Neil Sekada or something...
>>>
>>
>> Don't listen to bored and lonely music when you are bored and lonely.
>
> Apparently I'm listening to a different Neil Sedaka than everybody
> else... The one I have is like liquified sunshine in a bottle.
>
Quite possibly I am misremembering. I have heard his named attached to
some music years back, but I don't remember the tune. Or I am thinking
of a different artist with a similar name.
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On 13/06/2010 9:05 PM, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Of course. He only responds if I mimic his last type of meow, though.
That will be the one that says "I am here". It is the meow that sounds
strangulated.
> If a person did that I would think I was getting language lessons.
I’ve done it a couple of times to strange cats in friend’s homes. And
much to their amazement, their cat will come over.
> Anthropomorphizing just leads to new scars, though, as he may not be
> elitist but he is still all fuzz-and-claws.
>
Our tom cat would not scratch if you had bare skin but if your arms or
legs were clothed then that was fair game.
> While teaching a cat to fetch, it is very fundamental that they
> understand the concept that fetching is "getting the ball while it is
> not in your owners hand." When that part isn't taught properly, ouch.
Well done, I only ever trained Bertie to catch and take away never to
catch and fetch.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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Am 13.06.2010 21:09, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
>>> I have a sinking feeling that if I went to the [extreme] expensive of
>>> getting an FPGA rig, I'd probably then find that I'm too stupid to make
>>> it do anything anyway! :-/
>>
>> Nonsense.
>
> Well, the expensive bit is true enough. I just re-checked the Xilinx
> website and I can't find any starter kits for less than about $200.
> You'd have to buy *a lot* of 7400 chips to approach that price tag.
Try Lattice. Their development kits go as low as $49 (one of them is
currently even on sale for $29).
Or, alternatively, get a "bare" ispMACH 4A5 in 44-pin PLCC package, a
44-pin PLCC socket, the "ispLEVER Classic" development software (you'll
need to register but AFAIK it's free otherwise), the "ispVM System"
programming software (free as well), and an "ispDOWNLOAD"-compatible
programming cable on eBay for a few bucks. At least that's what I did.
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On 6/12/2010 5:06 AM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
> It's the 6510, which is similar to the 6502 that everything else used
> but with a few minor alterations. It's not a C64-specific chip though;
> just a different model in the range.
>
But, see, it isn't an off-the-shelf component.
Nintendo did this with the Famicom/NES, They used a 65C02, I think, but
added the audio generator to the CPU....
> This is the part I don't get. Mounting more chips on a board costs
> money, but making an ASIC costs orders of magnitude *more* money.
I think part of the ASIC cost could be design, though. Whereas with
discrete gates you don't have to design them at the transistor level,
but with a custom IC, they must be designed at the transistor level, and
it becomes critical to consider the analog electrical characteristics of
the circuit layout, so it takes a fair bit more work. Judging by the
other posts I've read, the cost isn't in the fab. Which is surprising,
given the clean-room requirements and high-resolution photo-etching
process.
>
> More like, they know their clients need a shaker that's guaranteed to
> work repeatably, so they can charge anything they like.
>
I'm sure there's a point where the cost would be more than the client
will accept. But it takes good engineering and attention to detail to
get a machine that operates repeatably with high accuracy and precision.
> Oh, there *is* electronics. (The mass spec needs to generate several
> kilovolts to ionise the sample, for example.) It connects to a PC via
> GPIB. (No, I've never heard of it either.) So there's a GPIB interface
> IC somewhere. And no doubt all sorts of self-diagnostic sensors and
> stuff. Still, apart from a couple of CPUs dotted around the place and a
> bunch of ADC chips, I wouldn't have thought there's must custom
> _digital_ stuff.
Not heard of GPIB, so I looked it up. Apparently aka IEEE-488 surprised
they're not using Ethernet or something less obsolete... but, there you
go. ;)
>> Maybe not, but they probably have some logic somewhere outside of the
>> CPU to manage signals, enable and disable drives, and such.
>
> You don't just do it all in software? That sounds much cheaper...
You still have to have the hardware to execute the commands of the
software, and depending on the application it could be much more
reliable to have it done in hardware. Some things safety related are not
controlled by software at all... Take the Emergency Stop on industrial
machines, for instance ...
--
~Mike
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On 6/12/2010 1:53 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 12.06.2010 19:31, schrieb Orchid XP v8:
>
>>>> And since I don't own or want to own an iPhone, why would I know about
>>>> this?
>>>
>>> Maybe by keeping your eyes and ears open to what's going on around you?
>>
>> I don't own an iPhone, I've never (knowingly) met anybody else who owns
>> an iPhone. (I was under the impression that it's extortionately
>> expsensive due to how shiny it is.) And I don't watch TV (probably the
>> only place it's advertised), so... why would I know much about it?
>> (Other than having heard that it exists, anyway.)
>
> I don't own an iPhone either, I've never knowingly met anybody else who
> owns one either until yesterday (and I didn't see the guy use the
> touchscreen), I don't even own a TV set, and only very rarely do I turn
> on the radio. Still I've heard of its touchscreen capabilities.
If you're around any technology at all, you'd have to be living under a
rock not to know ;)
> Computer magazines?
>
> Searching through the internerds because you're curious what's so
> special about the iPhone that everybody's talking about it?
Sure, yeah... or just being 10 ft from anything online that is tech.
> Leaving that aside, the iPhone is not the first consumer device to come
> with a touchscreen - PDAs have been featuring touchscreens at least
> since 2002.
What is groundbreaking about the iphone is it's multi-touch ability.
--
~Mike
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On 6/12/2010 1:57 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I thought most PDAs come with a stylus? (Or they have a useless
> trackball like that Blackberry I had the misfortune of needing to
> configure...)
They do. And how do you think that stylus works? Touch screen! and one
of the most rudimentary types, too! (Because the more advanced
capacitative touch screens won't work with a plastic stylus.. but the
ones built of a grid of embedded lines work just fine with the stylus,
but are rather inconvenient because they have flexible layers, can wear
easily, and somewhat obscure the screen due to their design, if you look
closely, you can see the little dots that act as standoffs between the
grid points)
An exception to the touch-screen stylus idea is something like a Wacom
tablet, which uses an inductive system (similar to RFID) but, those have
been around for ages ....
--
~Mike
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On 6/12/2010 2:13 PM, clipka wrote:
> They typically do - but AFAIK each and every PDA sold today can also be
> operated with fingers, toothpicks or whatever if needs be. And at least
> /my/ PDA with integrated phone I owned back in 2002 was
> "finger-sensitive", too.
The stylus is usually there for the purpose of being able to write
free-hand or "click" the small UI elements on the screen.
--
~Mike
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>> It's the 6510, which is similar to the 6502 that everything else used
>> but with a few minor alterations. It's not a C64-specific chip though;
>> just a different model in the range.
>>
>
> But, see, it isn't an off-the-shelf component.
How do you figure that?
MOS Technology made the very successful 6502, so they designed an
upgraded version, the 6510. It just so happens that Commodore purchased
the 6510 for their Commodore 64 system. How is that not "off-the-shelf"?
>> This is the part I don't get. Mounting more chips on a board costs
>> money, but making an ASIC costs orders of magnitude *more* money.
>
> I think part of the ASIC cost could be design, though. Whereas with
> discrete gates you don't have to design them at the transistor level,
> but with a custom IC, they must be designed at the transistor level, and
> it becomes critical to consider the analog electrical characteristics of
> the circuit layout, so it takes a fair bit more work. Judging by the
> other posts I've read, the cost isn't in the fab. Which is surprising,
> given the clean-room requirements and high-resolution photo-etching
> process.
Fabricating a 40 nm Intel Core i7 might require high-resolution
photo-etching such that the fab itself is expensive. If you're just
throwing a few logic gates together, you won't be using a 40 nm fab. So
the fabrication costs are quite small; it's setting up the production
line that costs $$$. And, of course, the design costs. But I would
imagine tooling up a fab is astronomically expensive. If you aren't
making 80,000,000 units, it would seem prohibitively expensive.
>> More like, they know their clients need a shaker that's guaranteed to
>> work repeatably, so they can charge anything they like.
>
> I'm sure there's a point where the cost would be more than the client
> will accept.
You wanna bet?
> But it takes good engineering and attention to detail to
> get a machine that operates repeatably with high accuracy and precision.
I wouldn't mind, but most of these devices don't even work very well...
>> It connects to a PC via
>> GPIB. (No, I've never heard of it either.)
>
> Not heard of GPIB, so I looked it up. Apparently aka IEEE-488 surprised
> they're not using Ethernet or something less obsolete... but, there you
> go. ;)
Well, the newest mass spectrometer we have was purchased about 5 years
ago. (Second-hand, obviously. We can only afford to buy the old crap
that other companies are throwing away.) Still, I gather GPIB is
supposedly quite popular in scientific applications. (Could explain why
the PCI GPIB card that goes in the PC is £400. No, you read that
correctly. £400.)
(Actually, it's £400 from the manufacturer. If you order it from the
people who manufacture the mass spec machine, it's £900. I'm not kidding.)
>>> Maybe not, but they probably have some logic somewhere outside of the
>>> CPU to manage signals, enable and disable drives, and such.
>>
>> You don't just do it all in software? That sounds much cheaper...
>
> You still have to have the hardware to execute the commands of the
> software, and depending on the application it could be much more
> reliable to have it done in hardware.
If all you're doing is cycling stepper motors, it would seem that all
you need is some memory-mapped registers and the analogue electronics to
map a binary digit to a step signal.
> Some things safety related are not
> controlled by software at all... Take the Emergency Stop on industrial
> machines, for instance ...
Then again, that's an extremely simple function.
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>> I thought most PDAs come with a stylus? (Or they have a useless
>> trackball like that Blackberry I had the misfortune of needing to
>> configure...)
>
> They do. And how do you think that stylus works? Touch screen! and one
> of the most rudimentary types, too!
No, I mean... I thought it only registers touches from the stylus.
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On 6/11/2010 10:33 PM, nemesis wrote:
> Designing a GPU for PS4 may sound glamurous, but I guess if you were the
> japanese guy working 30 hours a day under lots of pressure you'd actually think
> of suicide... :P
What I didn't realize was that the Japanese were able to alter the very
fabric of time... 30 hours a day? Really?
--
~Mike
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>> I don't own an iPhone either, I've never knowingly met anybody else who
>> owns one either until yesterday (and I didn't see the guy use the
>> touchscreen), I don't even own a TV set, and only very rarely do I turn
>> on the radio. Still I've heard of its touchscreen capabilities.
>
> If you're around any technology at all, you'd have to be living under a
> rock not to know ;)
I know that the iPhone exists, it's made by Apple, it's ludicrously
hyped and insanely expensive. And, judging from the name, you can make
telephone calls with it. But that's about all I know (or care, quite
honestly). It's not a product that interests me.
>> Computer magazines?
>>
>> Searching through the internerds because you're curious what's so
>> special about the iPhone that everybody's talking about it?
>
> Sure, yeah... or just being 10 ft from anything online that is tech.
That doesn't quite make sense, but anyway... why would I read up on a
product that I don't care about? (What's so special about it? Apple
wants lots of people to buy it. Duh.)
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