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On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:37:59 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Indeed - I don't want to know where your switches are located. ;-)
>
> I think you just found the switch to the overshare light.
LOL
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:17:42 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 07/06/2010 9:13 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Indeed - I don't want to know where your switches are located.;-)
>
> 'Nuff said.
Indeed, the less said, the better. ;-)
Jim
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On 06/07/10 06:36, John VanSickle wrote:
> I am not aware of any law in my jurisdiction prohibiting passing on the
> right, so that's what I would do. If the lanehog thinks this is rude,
> then maybe he/she/it ought to learn some manners and make the maneuver
> unnecessary.
>
> And why should passing on the right be any more dangerous than passing
> on the left? Drivers are supposed to check for other vehicles when
> performing any lane change.
Not sure if it's illegal, per se. However, some states' handbooks says
that you should overtake on the left. I believe the rationale was that
in a collision scenario (e.g. if the car ahead of you brakes suddenly),
you're supposed to swerve to the right.
--
"Maybe the universe IS fuzzy." --- Hubble Telescope Scientist
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Neeum Zawan wrote:
> in a collision scenario (e.g. if the car ahead of you brakes suddenly),
If the car in front of you suddenly braking is a collision scenario, you're
already a bad driver. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Indeed - I don't want to know where your switches are located. ;-)
>>
>> I think you just found the switch to the overshare light.
>
> Whatever turns you on...
>
Or off, as the case may be. Could be a momentary switch, too.
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> As an aside, on the few occasions I've driven in the US, I was amazed how
> short
> the acceleration/deceleration lanes were for exits... this was in the
> MA/NH area
> so I don't know if it's the same everywhere. Our slips roads in the UK are
> often
> 3x as long!
Ditto here in Germany, very short compared to UK. Also the off-ramps
suddenly go into a very tight corner which you can only take at 30 mph or
so.
This one here is near where I live, and is fairly typical:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=48.138643,11.397221&spn=0.00552,0.01074&t=k&z=17
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>> should only move out to the left to overtake someone,
>
> Are you sure? About the 'only', I mean.
In the UK at least, yes. See rule 264 here:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069862
Also rule 268 allows you to "undertake" if the conditions are busy and your
lane is simply going faster than the other lanes (ie you are not expected to
brake to avoid undertaking someone if the other lane slows down).
But crucially there is no "MUST NOT" related to any of this, so it seems
there is no specific law that applies in this situation. I assume it would
just be down to a police officier whether he judged what you were doing as
dangerous or not. You would probably need a pretty good explanation as to
why to undertook given that the highway code tells you not to. I don't know
whether they would accept "someone was hogging the overtaking lane" as a
valid reason.
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
> Bill Pragnell wrote:
> > As an aside, on the few occasions I've driven in the US, I was amazed how short
> > the acceleration/deceleration lanes were for exits...
>
> It depends if the roads were built after the surrounding area was built up.
> Most ramps are plenty long enough, unless it would mean tearing up
Fair enough, but most of the exits I was thinking of were in untouched
countryside, and, as Scott says of some of his German exits, terminated by sharp
corners!
> historic[*] buildings or something to give the room.
> [*] Historic for the USA, of course.
:-D
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"scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> > As an aside, on the few occasions I've driven in the US, I was amazed how
> > short
> > the acceleration/deceleration lanes were for exits... this was in the
> > MA/NH area
> > so I don't know if it's the same everywhere. Our slips roads in the UK are
> > often
> > 3x as long!
>
> Ditto here in Germany, very short compared to UK. Also the off-ramps
> suddenly go into a very tight corner which you can only take at 30 mph or
> so.
>
> This one here is near where I live, and is fairly typical:
>
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=48.138643,11.397221&spn=0.00552,0.01074&t=k&z=17
Eek. Compare that with this, a fairly typical junction on the M40:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=51.739759,-1.095693&spn=0.009527,0.01929&z=16
and because many (most?) of our junctions are elevated above the motorway,
coasting up the slip roads naturally brakes the car without having to use the
brakes at all.
(and look, you can see the Oxford services as a bonus)
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Maybe the solution to lane hoggers is hog loggers?
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> Eek. Compare that with this, a fairly typical junction on the M40:
>
>
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=51.739759,-1.095693&spn=0.009527,0.01929&z=16
Oh I normally turn off just before that one so never seen it IRL :-)
Also the UK layout does a pretty good job of stopping you going the wrong
way down the slip road by accident, because to do so you would have to do
something like a 160 degree turn to get on the slip road.
In Germany there are quite often people joining the wrong way (I hear it on
the radio every few weeks), as often the two slip roads come together with
nothing separating them, it would be possible without much effort to just
take the left lane rather than the right lane, then wham you're turning into
the face of an oncoming autobahn :-(
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"scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> Oh I normally turn off just before that one so never seen it IRL :-)
Well I'm sure you've seen plenty like it :)
> Also the UK layout does a pretty good job of stopping you going the wrong
> way down the slip road by accident, because to do so you would have to do
> something like a 160 degree turn to get on the slip road.
True, I never thought of that.
> In Germany there are quite often people joining the wrong way (I hear it on
> the radio every few weeks), as often the two slip roads come together with
> nothing separating them, it would be possible without much effort to just
> take the left lane rather than the right lane, then wham you're turning into
> the face of an oncoming autobahn :-(
Practically unheard of here, although it does happen occasionally.
Just for the spectacle, here's a highly atypical UK intersection, the infamous
'spaghetti' junction on the M6:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=52.510749,-1.865101&spn=0.009364,0.01929&t=k&z=16
It look pretty hairy, but unless you're on the bottom level you don't really
notice it's there. And you can pretty much take all of these slip roads at
40-50mph (except maybe the uppermost c-shaped one) - I speak from experience!
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Am 07.06.2010 10:26, schrieb scott:
> (Note left/right here is for driving on the right, for driving on the
> left countries reverse the left/rights).
...
> My girlfriend says that I should flash them and not overtake on the
> right, but IME this is easily interpretted as quite aggressive behaviour
> and could lead to more problems (eg them still not moving over or even
> worse deliberate braking or other aggressive behaviour).
>
> What do you do?
Here in Germany we have virtually the same rules, but we also have a
clear official position on this: Move to the leftmost lane, and set the
direction indicator to the left to signal your intention to overtake.
All the while, keep your distance.
Flashing them (I guess by this term you mean giving them a short flash
of the headlights) would constitute misuse, as this is officialy
supposed to be used only to warn others of some danger, but AFAIK
officially it's just a minor offense, and police closes one or two eyes
on various uses of flashing (actually I can't find it in the curent
"Bußgeldkatalog", the German list of fines for violations of various
traffic rules), so I consider it a fair option if the "lane hogger"
doesn't react to the direction indicators within due time. By all means,
however, you should keep your distance in this case! In Germany,
tailgating is often judged as coercion (an outright felony),
/especially/ when combined with flashing. Keeping proper distance when
flashing also helps prevent misunderstandings, signalling that you do
respect that other driver.
Overtaking on the right is a no-go, obviously considered worse than lane
hogging: While overtaking on the right is bound to cost 100,- EUR over
here, lane hogging (and slow overtaking) is "only" 80,- EUR.
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"scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> What do you do?
Drive the speed limit. You'll have less culpability in future oil spills.
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>> What do you do?
>
> Drive the speed limit.
What if there is no speed limit? :-)
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> Here in Germany we have virtually the same rules, but we also have a clear
> official position on this: Move to the leftmost lane, and set the
> direction indicator to the left to signal your intention to overtake. All
> the while, keep your distance.
OK I wasn't aware of that being the official position, good to know. Are
you meant to indicate once or continuously until they move over?
> however, you should keep your distance in this case! In Germany,
> tailgating is often judged as coercion (an outright felony), /especially/
> when combined with flashing. Keeping proper distance when flashing also
> helps prevent misunderstandings, signalling that you do respect that other
> driver.
Agreed, if it's one thing I always try to do 100% correctly it's to keep a
safe distance. From the bussgeld page it seems the fines can get quite high
for tailgating at high speed.
I see people dangerously tailgating quite a lot, I wonder if I filmed them
(not handheld whilst driving obviously) and handed the film to the police,
would they do anything about it?
> Overtaking on the right is a no-go, obviously considered worse than lane
> hogging: While overtaking on the right is bound to cost 100,- EUR over
> here, lane hogging (and slow overtaking) is "only" 80,- EUR.
OK, looks like I'll stop with my current tactic of waiting then overtaking
on the right, a 100 EUR automatic fine is quite high. So far I've only got
a couple of 15 EUR fines for doing high 30's km/hr in a 30 limit, getting a
100 EUR fine would be a bit silly for something easily avoided.
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From: Mike Raiford
Subject: Re: Lane hoggers - how to deal with them?
Date: 8 Jun 2010 08:12:27
Message: <4c0e33ab@news.povray.org>
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On 6/7/2010 4:36 PM, Stephen wrote:
>>
>> heh...
>>
>
> Don't you mean "He Haw" :-)
>
Nah ... Yeeee Hawww! <whilst randomly firing two six-shooter pistols> ;)
Hee Haw sounds too much like the braying of a jackass ;)
--
~Mike
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On 6/7/2010 7:52 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Neeum Zawan wrote:
>> in a collision scenario (e.g. if the car ahead of you brakes suddenly),
>
> If the car in front of you suddenly braking is a collision scenario,
> you're already a bad driver. :-)
>
Exception: When the car in front of you brakes suddenly after cutting
directly in front of you, not giving you room to react ....
--
~Mike
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Am 07.06.2010 16:42, schrieb Darren New:
> scott wrote:
>> which I guess is around a 4 second gap.
>
> Four seconds *is* tailgating at any speed where you're worried about
> going faster.
Even at 150 km/h, four seconds is still a distance of 167 m - more than
twice the distance at which you can be fined in Germany.
That's surely not enough space to come to a standstill, but hey - the
car in front of you would need some distance to slow down to zero, too.
And even if the car ahead of you should slow down extremely rapidly by
doing somersaults or some such, 4 seconds gives you plenty of time not
only to slam the brakes to slow down a good deal, but also to look,
think and take evasive maneuvers without endangering following traffic.
(And if you're woried about lane hoggers, there's a definite given that
the slow lane will be unoccupied at that time & space.)
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On 6/8/2010 6:51 AM, clipka wrote:
>
> Overtaking on the right is a no-go, obviously considered worse than lane
> hogging: While overtaking on the right is bound to cost 100,- EUR over
> here, lane hogging (and slow overtaking) is "only" 80,- EUR.
I take it by your description Germany drives on the right side of the
road, similar to the U.S.
I knew someone who was in the military and stationed in Germany who
after several failed attempts finally got a license to drive. He said
their standards for drivers is way above what they require over here.
Of course in the state I'm in once you've got a drivers license from the
state, that's pretty much it. You're never really required to take a
test (unless you're under psychiatric care.. I know this firsthand,
don't ask... Though I did discover that I actually can parallel park
perfectly, and I scored 100% on the written portion... even the
meaningless statistics. I remember the DPS employ's look of shock when
she offered me a few minutes to study the manual and I declined)
--
~Mike
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On 6/8/2010 3:16 AM, Bill Pragnell wrote:
> "scott"<sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
>>> As an aside, on the few occasions I've driven in the US, I was amazed how
>>> short
>>> the acceleration/deceleration lanes were for exits... this was in the
>>> MA/NH area
>>> so I don't know if it's the same everywhere. Our slips roads in the UK are
>>> often
>>> 3x as long!
>>
>> Ditto here in Germany, very short compared to UK. Also the off-ramps
>> suddenly go into a very tight corner which you can only take at 30 mph or
>> so.
>>
>> This one here is near where I live, and is fairly typical:
>>
>> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=48.138643,11.397221&spn=0.00552,0.01074&t=k&z=17
>
> Eek. Compare that with this, a fairly typical junction on the M40:
>
>
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=51.739759,-1.095693&spn=0.009527,0.01929&z=16
>
Wow ....
This is pretty typical around here ...
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=33.004048,-96.732334&spn=0.006694,0.013937&t=k&z=17
That is also the interchange around where people use the acceleration
lane as a passing lane.
--
~Mike
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Mike Raiford <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow ....
Wow good or wow bad? ;-)
> This is pretty typical around here ...
>
>
http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=33.004048,-96.732334&spn=0.006694,0.013937&t=k&z=17
>
> That is also the interchange around where people use the acceleration
> lane as a passing lane.
Ahyes, that's a bit different to what I've seen, looks like there's a continuous
acceleration lane between those on/off ramps? No wonder people are cheeky with
that. We've got some of those over here too, and yes, people often use them as
passing lanes. Now where's that laser? :)
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From: Phil Cook v2
Subject: Re: Lane hoggers - how to deal with them?
Date: 8 Jun 2010 09:54:34
Message: <op.vdzh9gbsmn4jds@phils>
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And lo On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 09:26:53 +0100, scott <sco### [at] scottcom> did
spake thusly:
> (Note left/right here is for driving on the right, for driving on the
> left countries reverse the left/rights).
>
> Here we have two important rules for multi-lane roads, one is that you
> should only move out to the left to overtake someone, and secondly you
> are not allowed to pass anyone on the right side (there are some
> exceptions for queues etc). I know it's not like this in all countries.
Just as a note this is referred to as overtaking on the left in the UK and
is not prohibited by law. You'd advised not to do it on motorways unless
in congested traffic otherwise you should only do so if the car in front
is signaling to turn right and there's room to do so.
For multi-lane carriageways you're advised to stay in the left-hand lane
unless turning or overtaking and should return to your original lane when
the maneuver is complete, but again this is not prohibited law.
You can't be charged with overtaking on the left, but you could be charged
with driving in an unsafe or reckless manner.
> As anyone who has driven probably knows already, the problem comes when
> someone stays in the left lane when they are not overtaking anyone and
> you want to go faster than them. What are you meant to do if you are
> behind them in this situation? What if you are directly behind in the
> same lane, or what if you approach them in the right lane?
<snip>
> What do you do?
I overtake them, might wake them up to the fact they should have switched
back to the correct lane.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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clipka wrote:
> Even at 150 km/h, four seconds is still a distance of 167 m - more than
> twice the distance at which you can be fined in Germany.
So going substantially faster than any road in the USA allows, you think you
can stop your car in 4 seconds?
> That's surely not enough space to come to a standstill, but hey - the
> car in front of you would need some distance to slow down to zero, too.
Here's the problem with that: The guy in 5 in front of you needs five
seconds to stop and only has four. Now the guy 4 in front of you has only
three seconds to stop. And the guy three in front of you has only 2 seconds
to stop. Etc. This is how you get 300 car pile-ups.
But yeah, if you're going that fast, it's a lot of distance. Just don't get
distracted for a second.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Bill Pragnell wrote:
> Fair enough, but most of the exits I was thinking of were in untouched
> countryside, and, as Scott says of some of his German exits, terminated by sharp
> corners!
Funny enough, there's a stretch of freeway in Pennsylvania that goes about
75 miles with no exits. There are ramps, but the ramps are all walled off at
the bottom.
It seems the government built the expressway, then came along to build the
ramps and surface roads, and the farmers pointed out they had made a deal
generations ago with the government that prevented the government from
confiscating their land for public purposes.
It's definitely creepy, and you do *not* want to accidentally get on the
expressway, unless you like driving 150 miles out of your way.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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scott wrote:
> This one here is near where I live, and is fairly typical:
This is the one I was talking about, which is actually quite untypical:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=san+diego+ca,+rt+52+and+rt+5&sll=32.729169,-117.138119&sspn=0.040723,0.057077&ie=UTF8&hq=rt+52+and+rt+5&hnear=San+Diego,+CA&ll=32.839329,-117.234571&spn=0.002542,0.003567&t=k&z=18
It wouldn't be quite so bad except it's uphill, people on the main road
(North/South) are trying to exit, and those trees keep you from seeing who
is coming up the freeway while you're on the ramp. (The ramp in question
being the westbound 52 ramp merging into the northbound I-5).
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Bill Pragnell wrote:
> Just for the spectacle, here's a highly atypical UK intersection, the infamous
> 'spaghetti' junction on the M6:
That's pretty typical around here.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=san+diego+ca&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.184175,58.447266&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=San+Diego,+California&ll=32.758813,-117.203661&spn=0.005089,0.007135&t=k&z=17
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Mike Raiford wrote:
> Exception: When the car in front of you brakes suddenly after cutting
> directly in front of you, not giving you room to react ....
True. It's sometimes hard to avoid that sort of thing.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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scott wrote:
>>> should only move out to the left to overtake someone,
>>
>> Are you sure? About the 'only', I mean.
>
> In the UK at least, yes. See rule 264 here:
>
> http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069862
>
> Also rule 268 allows you to "undertake" if the conditions are busy and
> your lane is simply going faster than the other lanes (ie you are not
> expected to brake to avoid undertaking someone if the other lane slows
> down).
>
> But crucially there is no "MUST NOT" related to any of this, so it seems
> there is no specific law that applies in this situation. I assume it
> would just be down to a police officier whether he judged what you were
> doing as dangerous or not. You would probably need a pretty good
> explanation as to why to undertook given that the highway code tells you
> not to. I don't know whether they would accept "someone was hogging the
> overtaking lane" as a valid reason.
>
>
Thanks for clarifying that. Or at least as much clarification as the
Traffic code offers ;) And I now see it is precisely this ambiguity
that is the point of your original question.
Both as a taxi driver and instructor of taxi drivers, and as a generic
driver and Point Reduction (defensive driving) instructor, I find myself
amok in this sort of question constantly.
One thing I am situated to observe is the subjective way in which people
understand laws, and driving laws, which govern such a common and
emotionally laden activity, offer notable examples. And one of the
topics that comes up most often, is the one you have pointed to here:
people driving slowly (meaning the speed limit) in the center most or
'passing' lane. I have had, in class, otherwise mature and sane seeming
people argue that if I am driving the limit in the passing lane I am
interfering with their unalienable right to break the law and challenge
the police to catch them. Some would have it that the law prohibits
them passing to the right and so justifies their aggressive behavior
toward anyone doing the limit in the passing lane. But the law does not
prohibit it, nor does it secure the lane as a passing or high speed lane.
-Jim
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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Re: Lane hoggers - how to deal with them?
Date: 8 Jun 2010 15:12:54
Message: <4c0e9636@news.povray.org>
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scott wrote:
>> As an aside, on the few occasions I've driven in the US, I was amazed
>> how short
>> the acceleration/deceleration lanes were for exits... this was in the
>> MA/NH area
>> so I don't know if it's the same everywhere. Our slips roads in the UK
>> are often
>> 3x as long!
>
> Ditto here in Germany, very short compared to UK. Also the off-ramps
> suddenly go into a very tight corner which you can only take at 30 mph
> or so.
>
> This one here is near where I live, and is fairly typical:
>
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=48.138643,11.397221&spn=0.00552,0.01074&t=k&z=17
>
>
>
German engineering...of brakes. Our brakes aren't good enough to have
that here.
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Am Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:10:37 +0200 schrieb scott:
> Thing is, you can get that question wrong and never drive on a motorway,
> let alone have these things explained to you, then you get your full
> driving license. It's no wonder so many people get it wrong.
Ehh... don't you have to drive on the motorway in the driving exam at
least once? In germany you have to do that, although some people only do
it in the exam and don't drive on the motorway after that.
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Florian Pesth wrote:
> Ehh... don't you have to drive on the motorway in the driving exam at
> least once?
No. In fact, in the UK you are *prohibited* from driving on a motorway
until after you pass your test. Which sort-of makes logical sense,
only... not really...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Florian Pesth wrote:
> Ehh... don't you have to drive on the motorway in the driving exam at
> least once?
Some areas in the USA have their own little testing area. A selection of
roads and parking lots and such whose only purpose is to test new drivers.
You're supposed to use your "learner's permit" time to learn to drive on the
real roads with actual drivers sitting beside you.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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On 06/08/10 11:49, Jim Charter wrote:
> the police to catch them. Some would have it that the law prohibits
> them passing to the right and so justifies their aggressive behavior
> toward anyone doing the limit in the passing lane. But the law does not
> prohibit it, nor does it secure the lane as a passing or high speed lane.
In Illinois, on the interstate with two lanes in each direction, you're
not allowed to drive on the left lane if there is a car behind you. It
doesn't say anything about passing on the right, although it says that a
"legitimate" use of being on the left lane is when passing a car.
--
Outside a Muffler Shop:
"No appointment necessary. We hear you coming."
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From: Jim Charter
Subject: Re: Lane hoggers - how to deal with them?
Date: 8 Jun 2010 23:01:56
Message: <4c0f0424@news.povray.org>
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Neeum Zawan wrote:
> On 06/08/10 11:49, Jim Charter wrote:
>> the police to catch them. Some would have it that the law prohibits
>> them passing to the right and so justifies their aggressive behavior
>> toward anyone doing the limit in the passing lane. But the law does not
>> prohibit it, nor does it secure the lane as a passing or high speed lane.
>
> In Illinois, on the interstate with two lanes in each direction, you're
> not allowed to drive on the left lane if there is a car behind you. It
> doesn't say anything about passing on the right, although it says that a
> "legitimate" use of being on the left lane is when passing a car.
>
Yes historically different things have been tried and particular roads
have been/are posted to reserve the left lane as a high speed lane or
passing lane. On steep grades the left lane is often reserved for
faster traffic and so on. In NYC of course the left lanes are often
reserved as HOV (high occupancy vehicle) lanes for certain times of day
and so on. And I think all these bits and half-remembered,
half-understood pieces are what contribute in the minds of some to this
idea that in the general case they have some basic human right to drive
over the speed limit in the left lane and someone driving the limit in
the left lane is breaking the law.
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>> Even at 150 km/h, four seconds is still a distance of 167 m - more than
>> twice the distance at which you can be fined in Germany.
>
> So going substantially faster than any road in the USA allows, you think
> you can stop your car in 4 seconds?
It's not the time, it's the distance. As clipka said, leaving a 4 second
gap when driving 150 km/hr is 167 metres. Even if the car ahead instantly
stops dead with no warning you have 167 metres to do something. Given that
a modern car can stop from 150 km/hr within 150 metres (and from 100 km/hr
in 50 metres), allowing for reaction times at worst you're going to bump in
to them at a low speed.
Of course in reality cars don't just instantly stop for no reason, and this
is why the UK and German governments only suggest you leave a minimum of
around half that gap.
> Here's the problem with that: The guy in 5 in front of you needs five
> seconds to stop and only has four. Now the guy 4 in front of you has only
> three seconds to stop. And the guy three in front of you has only 2
> seconds to stop. Etc.
I don't follow your logic here, if you're leaving a 4 second gap to the car
immediately ahead, you still have a 4 second gap no matter what the people
are doing ahead of you.
> This is how you get 300 car pile-ups.
You get 300 car pile-ups because people drive closer (in distance) to the
car ahead than they need to stop *and* don't pay attention to anything ahead
of the car immediately in front. If they fixed either of those two issues
there wouldn't be any pile up.
> But yeah, if you're going that fast, it's a lot of distance. Just don't
> get distracted for a second.
The key point is to be aware what is happening far enough ahead of you
relative to your speed. Doing 200 km/hr can be safe if you check far enough
ahead of you that it is clear (not just the one car ahead of you). If you
can't for whatever reason then you need to slow down until you can see far
enough for your speed.
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> It's definitely creepy, and you do *not* want to accidentally get on the
> expressway, unless you like driving 150 miles out of your way.
Are there any exits for gas stations? If not you want to be making sure you
have enough fuel too!
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>> This one here is near where I live, and is fairly typical:
>>
>> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=48.138643,11.397221&spn=0.00552,0.01074&t=k&z=17
> German engineering...of brakes. Our brakes aren't good enough to have
> that here.
I think the brakes are probably pretty much the same on all cars everywhere.
What you need is better tyres :-)
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>> Thing is, you can get that question wrong and never drive on a motorway,
>> let alone have these things explained to you, then you get your full
>> driving license. It's no wonder so many people get it wrong.
>
> Ehh... don't you have to drive on the motorway in the driving exam at
> least once?
No. Before you have actually passed your test you are not allowed to drive
on motorways, this includes during the actual practical exam.
It's not quite as bad as it sounds though, because in the UK we have a lot
of roads that are very similar to motorways (same speed limit, dual
carriageways, multiple lanes in each direction) but are just not classed as
such. You can drive on these as a learner driver. Also IIRC in the test
you have to drive on a road like this for a bit too.
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> idea that in the general case they have some basic human right to drive
> over the speed limit in the left lane and someone driving the limit in the
> left lane is breaking the law.
How do you know you are going the speed limit? Speedometers in cars usually
underread significantly at high speed.
Besides, it's not your job to enforce other drivers to keep to the speed
limit, and you certainly shouldn't do anything illegal or dangerous. In the
UK there is a famous video from an unmarked police car that is catching up
with another car doing ~100 mph on a 70 limit motorway. A member of the
public obviously has got annoyed by these fast drivers so pulls out right in
front of the unmarked police car and forces it to go at what he thinks is
the speed limit. Both drivers were stopped and prosecuted.
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On 08/06/2010 1:10 PM, Mike Raiford wrote:
> On 6/7/2010 4:36 PM, Stephen wrote:
>
>>>
>>> heh...
>>>
>>
>> Don't you mean "He Haw" :-)
>>
>
> Nah ... Yeeee Hawww!
I stand corrected.
> <whilst randomly firing two six-shooter pistols> ;)
>
Pearl handled ones, I assume.
> Hee Haw sounds too much like the braying of a jackass ;)
>
No comment :-P
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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On 09/06/2010 8:50 AM, scott wrote:
> The key point is to be aware what is happening far enough ahead of you
> relative to your speed. Doing 200 km/hr can be safe if you check far
> enough ahead of you that it is clear (not just the one car ahead of
> you). If you can't for whatever reason then you need to slow down until
> you can see far enough for your speed.
If it is of any interest. Each week I make a 400 mile round journey
mostly on motorways. At the end of the outward leg I find that it is
difficult to focus on anything closer than, about 15 yards. As I travel
at speed and I am mostly concentrating on the road about a quarter to a
half mile ahead. On the homeward leg the traffic is much denser so my
speed is less and my point of concentration is closer. I don’t notice
that phenomenon.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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> If it is of any interest. Each week I make a 400 mile round journey mostly
> on motorways. At the end of the outward leg I find that it is difficult to
> focus on anything closer than, about 15 yards. As I travel at speed and I
> am mostly concentrating on the road about a quarter to a half mile ahead.
Yes, I find this leads to a much more relaxing drive as you can react early
and gently to every situation rather than constantly accelerating/braking in
response to the car directly ahead. Of course sometimes you get an idiot
riding your bumper as you gradually slow when the traffic is stopped in 500
metres, but hey he looks stupid once you've come to a stop :-)
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On 09/06/2010 1:02 PM, scott wrote:
>> If it is of any interest. Each week I make a 400 mile round journey
>> mostly on motorways. At the end of the outward leg I find that it is
>> difficult to focus on anything closer than, about 15 yards. As I
>> travel at speed and I am mostly concentrating on the road about a
>> quarter to a half mile ahead.
>
> Yes, I find this leads to a much more relaxing drive as you can react
> early and gently to every situation rather than constantly
> accelerating/braking in response to the car directly ahead. Of course
> sometimes you get an idiot riding your bumper as you gradually slow when
> the traffic is stopped in 500 metres, but hey he looks stupid once
> you've come to a stop :-)
>
>
Who wants excitement on a drive?
It is enough to wake you up ;-)
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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On 6/9/2010 5:44 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 08/06/2010 1:10 PM, Mike Raiford wrote:
>> On 6/7/2010 4:36 PM, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> heh...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't you mean "He Haw" :-)
>>>
>>
>> Nah ... Yeeee Hawww!
>
> I stand corrected.
>
>> <whilst randomly firing two six-shooter pistols> ;)
>>
>
> Pearl handled ones, I assume.
>
Ohh, you bet!
--
~Mike
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On 6/9/2010 3:17 AM, scott wrote:
>> idea that in the general case they have some basic human right to
>> drive over the speed limit in the left lane and someone driving the
>> limit in the left lane is breaking the law.
>
> How do you know you are going the speed limit? Speedometers in cars
> usually underread significantly at high speed.
I dunno, according to my GPS the speedometer on my car is still accurate
at around 70-75 mph.
> Besides, it's not your job to enforce other drivers to keep to the speed
> limit, and you certainly shouldn't do anything illegal or dangerous. In
> the UK there is a famous video from an unmarked police car that is
> catching up with another car doing ~100 mph on a 70 limit motorway. A
> member of the public obviously has got annoyed by these fast drivers so
> pulls out right in front of the unmarked police car and forces it to go
> at what he thinks is the speed limit. Both drivers were stopped and
> prosecuted.
>
And rightfully so! Pulling such a stunt is dangerous and stupid.
Regardless, you're still technically breaking the law if you're driving
over the speed limit even in the left lane. But, I do go slightly over
when overtaking a car that's going only a few mph under the speed limit
just to limit the amount of time I spend in the left lane.
On another note, another legitimate reason to be in the left lane: It's
generally considered a courtesy to move left (if safe to do so) when
someone is entering the freeway, especially in situations where there's
very little room for the entering motorist to accelerate.
--
~Mike
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On 6/9/2010 3:00 AM, scott wrote:
>
> I think the brakes are probably pretty much the same on all cars
> everywhere. What you need is better tyres :-)
>
Some do have better brakes than others, but the most important (and
overlooked!) part of the car is that small square patch of rubber where
the tire meets the row, this is usually your main point of failure. You
can have 700 ft/lb of torque, and the best brakes in the world, if your
tires suck none of it matters. Of course, there's a trade-off. Tires
that grip exceptionally well do so because the rubber is soft. Soft
rubber wears faster.
--
~Mike
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scott wrote:
> I don't follow your logic here, if you're leaving a 4 second gap to the
> car immediately ahead, you still have a 4 second gap no matter what the
> people are doing ahead of you.
You answered your own question:
> Of course in reality cars don't just instantly stop for no reason,
They do if they run into the person in front of them who is also already
stopped.
> anything ahead of the car immediately in front. If they fixed either of
> those two issues there wouldn't be any pile up.
If *everybody* fixes those two issues, there's no pile-up. If you're car
#150 of 300, it doesn't much matter whether you hit the guy in front if the
guys behind you don't leave enough root to stop.
> The key point is to be aware what is happening far enough ahead of you
> relative to your speed. Doing 200 km/hr can be safe if you check far
> enough ahead of you that it is clear (not just the one car ahead of
> you). If you can't for whatever reason then you need to slow down until
> you can see far enough for your speed.
Yes. Sadly, most people around here are really bad drivers.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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scott wrote:
> Are there any exits for gas stations? If not you want to be making sure
> you have enough fuel too!
Nope, nothing. It's freeway with blocked off-ramps into farm fields.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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On 06/08/10 20:02, Jim Charter wrote:
> Yes historically different things have been tried and particular roads
> have been/are posted to reserve the left lane as a high speed lane or
> passing lane. On steep grades the left lane is often reserved for
To clarify, in Illinois, you are allowed to drive on the left lane if
no one is behind you. In some states, you just can't - unless you're
overtaking.
> idea that in the general case they have some basic human right to drive
> over the speed limit in the left lane and someone driving the limit in
> the left lane is breaking the law.
They may not have the right to overtake at higher than the speed limit,
but at least in Illinois, if you're on the left lane (interstate)
driving at the speed limit, and the guy behind you is driving above the
speed limit, you're required by law to switch to the right lane (i.e.
the fact that his actions are breaking the law is not relevant to your
responsibility to yield to him).
--
Outside a Muffler Shop:
"No appointment necessary. We hear you coming."
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