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And lo On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:50:05 +0100, Warp <war### [at] tag povrayorg> did
spake thusly:
> Ok, this is a bit hard to confess, but I sold myself out, so to speak,
> kind of. I went and bought an Xbox 360.
Scab! Heh. OOC why the Xbox and not the PS3? I'm not fan-boying or
anything I'm genuinely curious.
<snip>
> in and play without having to worry at all about crashes, graphics
> settings,
> latest drivers and whether your PC will be able to run it at all.
Which is why I made the leap some time ago.
> Microsoft
> has also made a quite good work at demanding game developers to minimize
> loading times even when loading from DVD, because it really makes a big
> difference: Sometimes Xbox 360 games seem to load from the DVD *faster*
> than they seem to load from the HD in the PC, as incredible as that might
> sound... (I don't really understand how they succeed in this, and why
> they
> don't use the same technique in the Windows ports of the games, when they
> exist.)
Yeah as has been mentioned it's the fixed hardware. I was reading
something from a developer about how all the processes in the game has a
timing constraint - this, this and this have to be done in this time in
order for the screen to be redrawn. If you don't know the throughputs for
the hardware it's more difficult to tweak.
> Of course there are drawbacks too. For one, games deliberately have no
> support for mouse and keyboard, even though the console would support
> them
> (eg. you can plug in an USB keyboard and use it to write in the
> dashboard;
> I'm assuming supporting USB mice is there or at least would be equally
> easy).
And that's the stupid thing about the PS3 you *can* use a keyboard and
mouse (bluetooth and usb), but the games themselves have to accept their
input to work. Not counting some of the old PS1/PS2 games I think only
Unreal Tournament had this support, maddening.
> That means no FPS games for me. (Yes, I tried a few demos, and they were
> next to impossible to play.) AFAIK this is a deliberate guideline by
> Microsoft
> (or at least it was for the Xbox).
Keep at it. It still won't be as good as with a mouse, but it won't be
impossible.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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> Keep at it. It still won't be as good as with a mouse, but it won't be
> impossible.
As usual I have a cool idea, google it, and find someone else has already
done it:
http://www.xcm.cc/xcm_xfps_360.htm
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And lo On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:48:26 +0100, scott <sco### [at] scottcom> did
spake thusly:
>> Keep at it. It still won't be as good as with a mouse, but it won't be
>> impossible.
>
> As usual I have a cool idea, google it, and find someone else has
> already done it:
>
> http://www.xcm.cc/xcm_xfps_360.htm
There's some out for the PS3 too, which is hilarious for obvious reasons.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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>> As usual I have a cool idea, google it, and find someone else has
>> already done it:
>>
>> http://www.xcm.cc/xcm_xfps_360.htm
>
> There's some out for the PS3 too, which is hilarious for obvious reasons.
Clearly I'm missing something...
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>>> As usual I have a cool idea, google it, and find someone else has
>>> already done it:
>>>
>>> http://www.xcm.cc/xcm_xfps_360.htm
>>
>> There's some out for the PS3 too, which is hilarious for obvious reasons.
>
> Clearly I'm missing something...
Me too.
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And lo On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:07:22 +0100, scott <sco### [at] scottcom> did
spake thusly:
>>>> As usual I have a cool idea, google it, and find someone else has
>>>> already done it:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.xcm.cc/xcm_xfps_360.htm
>>>
>>> There's some out for the PS3 too, which is hilarious for obvious
>>> reasons.
>>
>> Clearly I'm missing something...
>
> Me too.
Oh sorry. The PS3 natively supports a keyboard and mouse. The game
developers just need to interface to it. In theory any game that is also
developed for the PC or uses the Unreal engine could support k+m for the
PS3; they just don't.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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>>>> There's some out for the PS3 too, which is hilarious for obvious
>>>> reasons.
>>>
>>> Clearly I'm missing something...
>>
>> Me too.
>
> Oh sorry. The PS3 natively supports a keyboard and mouse. The game
> developers just need to interface to it. In theory any game that is also
> developed for the PC or uses the Unreal engine could support k+m for the
> PS3; they just don't.
Which is the point of these add-on boxes, they accept normal k+m and then
present themselves to the console as a normal native gamepad. The result is
that any game that accepts input from the analogue stick can be controlled
by a mouse.
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And lo On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:18:05 +0100, scott <sco### [at] scottcom> did
spake thusly:
>>>>> There's some out for the PS3 too, which is hilarious for obvious
>>>>> reasons.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly I'm missing something...
>>>
>>> Me too.
>>
>> Oh sorry. The PS3 natively supports a keyboard and mouse. The game
>> developers just need to interface to it. In theory any game that is
>> also developed for the PC or uses the Unreal engine could support k+m
>> for the PS3; they just don't.
>
> Which is the point of these add-on boxes, they accept normal k+m and
> then present themselves to the console as a normal native gamepad. The
> result is that any game that accepts input from the analogue stick can
> be controlled by a mouse.
But that's why I find it hilarious. This isn't a case of a third-party
creating something that isn't there, it's creating something that already
exists and isn't being used.
It's as if Sony had designed a car and created a power lead to plug in a
radio, but all the radio creators decided to fit their products with
batteries, so a third-party came along and created a battery pack and an
extra power lead. I can just picture the Sony execs shaking their heads in
bemusement.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook v2 wrote:
> It's as if Sony had designed a car and created a power lead to plug in a
> radio, but all the radio creators decided to fit their products with
> batteries, so a third-party came along and created a battery pack and an
> extra power lead. I can just picture the Sony execs shaking their heads
> in bemusement.
Or as if the manufacturers could make radios with an audio socket where
you could plug in any concievable sound source, but instead they all
created radios with a cassette slot, so 3rd parties came up with a tape
adaptor...
...oh, wait, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED! >_<
Seriously, is there any specific reason that I can't plug my MP3 player
into my car? Or is it just so that Renault can extract more money from
me to have an MP3-capable head unit installed? (And even then it still
won't play Ogg Vorbis...)
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And lo On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:36:01 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> did
spake thusly:
> Phil Cook v2 wrote:
>
>> It's as if Sony had designed a car and created a power lead to plug in
>> a radio, but all the radio creators decided to fit their products with
>> batteries, so a third-party came along and created a battery pack and
>> an extra power lead. I can just picture the Sony execs shaking their
>> heads in bemusement.
>
> Or as if the manufacturers could make radios with an audio socket where
> you could plug in any concievable sound source, but instead they all
> created radios with a cassette slot, so 3rd parties came up with a tape
> adaptor...
>
> ...oh, wait, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED! >_<
Kind of. Imagine the radio manufacturers created them with both the
cassette and audio socket, but didn't connect the socket; and then someone
created the tape adaptor. Maybe it's just me but I find that thought
amusing.
> Seriously, is there any specific reason that I can't plug my MP3 player
> into my car?
Yes
> Or is it just so that Renault can extract more money from me to have an
> MP3-capable head unit installed?
and there you go :-)
> (And even then it still won't play Ogg Vorbis...)
Ah come on they've only just got around to MP3.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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> Seriously, is there any specific reason that I can't plug my MP3 player
> into my car? Or is it just so that Renault can extract more money from me
> to have an MP3-capable head unit installed? (And even then it still won't
> play Ogg Vorbis...)
Car companies can easily have 90%+ margin on optional extras, it's how they
make a significant proportion of their profit and it subsidises the base
price of the car.
BTW, I'm sure with a little investigating you can find the analogue AUX
inputs to the head unit and wire up a 3.5mm socket somewhere...
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scott wrote:
> Car companies can easily have 90%+ margin on optional extras.
Great. So I'm being deliberately stopped from doing something trivially
easy just so Renault can make more profit. *sigh*
> BTW, I'm sure with a little investigating you can find the analogue AUX
> inputs to the head unit and wire up a 3.5mm socket somewhere...
I wouldn't mind, but the stereo isn't replaceable. It's one of these
units that's welded to the dashboard. It's nice that it matches the
interior and everything (and it has things like satelite controls, and a
feature where it turns the volume up when you reach a certain speed),
but on the other hand it means you can *only* install one of the 4
models of stereo that Renault sell. And it's so expensive that you might
as well buy an entire new car; much cheaper than paying for an
authorised dealer to install an authorised unit.
And all because they didn't include a 12p audio socket...
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>> Car companies can easily have 90%+ margin on optional extras.
>
> Great. So I'm being deliberately stopped from doing something trivially
> easy just so Renault can make more profit. *sigh*
Actually they are using that extra profit to reduce the base price of their
cars, so you should be thanking all the people spending thousands on extras
for subsidising your car :-)
> I wouldn't mind, but the stereo isn't replaceable. It's one of these units
> that's welded to the dashboard.
Extremely unlikely that you can't get it out (or that it's welded), dealers
have to replace these sorts of things all the time. You just have to look
around for where the screws and catches are hidden under various bits of
trim. Online forums will no doubt have the answer if you can't figure it
out for your particular car.
> but on the other hand it means you can *only* install one of the 4 models
> of stereo that Renault sell. And it's so expensive that you might as well
> buy an entire new car; much cheaper than paying for an authorised dealer
> to install an authorised unit.
>
> And all because they didn't include a 12p audio socket...
My point is the electrical connection is probably right there behind *your*
head unit, you just need to connect three wires to it.
If it's available as an after-fit option then you might be able to find
online the actual official service guide for installing it. I found the one
for putting a USB socket in my car, but apparently it has to be wired up to
some box of tricks in the boot, and involved taking out seats and stuff, so
I decided not to bother.
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>> Great. So I'm being deliberately stopped from doing something
>> trivially easy just so Renault can make more profit. *sigh*
>
> Actually they are using that extra profit to reduce the base price of
> their cars, so you should be thanking all the people spending thousands
> on extras for subsidising your car :-)
It's almost like those companies that sell you a printer for £20 and
then charge you £80 for the ink...
>> I wouldn't mind, but the stereo isn't replaceable. It's one of these
>> units that's welded to the dashboard.
>
> Extremely unlikely that you can't get it out (or that it's welded),
> dealers have to replace these sorts of things all the time.
My point is, it's not a standard-sized stereo that you can just replace.
It's a custom-fit job. Only a Renault stereo would be the correct size
and shape (and colour, for that matter) to fit into the space. So I
can't just go to the nearest shop and buy a decent stereo. I can *only*
buy one from Renault. And, as I say, it would be cheaper to buy an
entire new car. (Not to mention that Renault only offer 4 models of
stereo to choose from for this car anyway.)
>> And all because they didn't include a 12p audio socket...
>
> My point is the electrical connection is probably right there behind
> *your* head unit, you just need to connect three wires to it.
I severely doubt it. If their intention is to force you to expend money,
they will presumably have made this is difficult as humanly possible to
prevent you not expending money.
> If it's available as an after-fit option then you might be able to find
> online the actual official service guide for installing it.
As far as I can tell, none of the 4 available models has an audio
socket. They have different radio capabilities, and there's an option to
fit a CD changer. I think one model even supports MP3. But no audio
socket. Ever. (Nor USB, by the way.)
I guess if you wanted USB, you'd have to buy a more expensive car. (How
absurd is that?)
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Phil Cook v2 wrote:
> Illogical barriers to progress, invisible walls is snappier though.
Logical barriers is best, tho. Like Myst or Thief. :-)
> Well everyone's different. I can't stand racing games, my cousin loves
> them.
The best racing game I saw has a mode you could unlock where it was one long
street crossing another very busy street, and the game was to see how many
points of destruction you could cause in a wreck. It turned out that
turning over the logging truck into the side of the gasoline tank truck did
a very nice job of it. And the explosions and other demolitions were
wonderfully realistic.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Invisible wrote:
> My point is, it's not a standard-sized stereo that you can just replace.
I doubt that's true. I suspect ifyou pulled the dashboard off, you'd see one
of the standard-sized holes with a standard-sized radio with lots of trim
making it fit smoothly into the dash.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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And lo On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:32:08 +0100, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>
did spake thusly:
> Phil Cook v2 wrote:
>> Illogical barriers to progress, invisible walls is snappier though.
>
> Logical barriers is best, tho. Like Myst or Thief. :-)
>
>> Well everyone's different. I can't stand racing games, my cousin loves
>> them.
>
> The best racing game I saw has a mode you could unlock where it was one
> long street crossing another very busy street, and the game was to see
> how many points of destruction you could cause in a wreck. It turned
> out that turning over the logging truck into the side of the gasoline
> tank truck did a very nice job of it. And the explosions and other
> demolitions were wonderfully realistic.
Hence Burnout Paradise being pretty much the only racing game I enjoy :-)
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook v2 wrote:
> Hence Burnout Paradise being pretty much the only racing game I enjoy :-)
Is that what it's called? I'll have to see if I can get that for the xbox.
I played it on my brother's 9-foot projection tv screen. It was awesome.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Darren New wrote:
> Is that what it's called? I'll have to see if I can get that for the xbox.
Neat.
http://www.xbox.com/en-us/games/b/burnoutparadise/default.htm
For those who don't know what we're talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-RjsMdOG6E
Imagine that where one of the sub-games is seeing how much destruction you
can cause in a busy intersection.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Sony ever fixed those issues
Ahahaha. At least then, when it was still partially Verent, you got the
"Sorry, citizen, but you are not allowed to do that in our game. We are
going to 'fix' this problem." They have moved from, "fixing bugs in ways
you hate." to, "use this micro-transaction to give us more money."
I did hear the quest got a kludge fix. Anyone can just start it in the
middle, without the petition for citizenship paper.
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On 6/10/2010 10:53 AM, Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> My point is, it's not a standard-sized stereo that you can just replace.
>
> I doubt that's true. I suspect ifyou pulled the dashboard off, you'd see
> one of the standard-sized holes with a standard-sized radio with lots of
> trim making it fit smoothly into the dash.
>
Yep. It's the same as my civic, probably. Only apparently the civic you
can't actually remove the radio because it has part of the computer
system for the dashboard. You have to relocate the head unit somewhere
else if you want to use an aftermarket unit.
Usually shops that sell radios will have a dash plate that has an
opening designed to fit a standard radio. It looks just like the OEM,
only it's got a standard rectangular hole where the radio goes.
--
~Mike
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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Warp wrote:
>>> That means no FPS games for me. (Yes, I tried a few demos, and they were
>>> next to impossible to play.)
>
>> I've found it takes getting used to, and some games manage it better than
>> others. I can't drive in GTA (which is kind of ironic), but shooting in most
>> of the games seems OK to me once I play the game a bit, even tho I agree
>> it's a lot harder than on the PC with a mouse.
>
> I tried the demo of Battlefield: Bad Company, and while the game looked
> great, it was almost impossible to play. You need pixel-level accuracy to
> hit anything, which is basically impossible with the controller. With a
> mouse it wouldn't be a problem.
>
I know that with the Call of Duty series, you get a little auto-aim help
when firing from the hip in that the game just corrects the bullets
path. If you shoulder the weapon, or aim down the sights, or what ever
else the game has, it would snap the cross hair to the target. Both of
those are options that can be disabled per player. And both are disabled
in online-multiplayer, much to my annoyance.
You can get used to a joystick control. It's not impossible, it just
shares nothing with the skills used when using a mouse.
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"Phil Cook v2" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> And lo On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:50:05 +0100, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> did
> spake thusly:
>
> > Ok, this is a bit hard to confess, but I sold myself out, so to speak,
> > kind of. I went and bought an Xbox 360.
>
> Scab! Heh. OOC why the Xbox and not the PS3? I'm not fan-boying or
> anything I'm genuinely curious.
I guess it's because of the 2006's revolutionary-game hype around the
XBox-exclusive "Alan Wake". If he gets hugely disapointed, I'd point him to
"Red Dead Redemption" from Rockstar, with its huge open-world set in the old
west. Much more mindblowing stuff, with hardly any hype at all...
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nemesis wrote:
> Much more mindblowing stuff, with hardly any hype at all...
Which ZP has also reviewed this week. Very amusing, as always.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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On 6/10/2010 10:09 AM, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Sony ever fixed those issues
>
> Ahahaha. At least then, when it was still partially Verent, you got the
> "Sorry, citizen, but you are not allowed to do that in our game. We are
> going to 'fix' this problem." They have moved from, "fixing bugs in ways
> you hate." to, "use this micro-transaction to give us more money."
>
> I did hear the quest got a kludge fix. Anyone can just start it in the
> middle, without the petition for citizenship paper.
Lovely.. Took me about 20 minutes looking through the code for the
non-SOE server to find and fix all the issues with it, and even without
testing all of it, I am pretty sure it got included in the most recent
patches, and all of it works. It wasn't that damn hard to figure out.
All you do is look through to see what they expect, what they give you,
to give to the next guy, then make sure you can go back to the last one
and get a new one, as long as a "flag" that tracks your progress shows
you finished up to that point. Heck. I didn't even have to add my own
bloody flag. The key one needed is already there, there just wasn't code
in there to say:
if flag = 1 & !inventory_contains("thingie"){ \\i.e. you finished to
this point.
give "thingie";
say "Someone found this laying around. Try not to lose it again.";}
Someone half brain dead could fix it, never mind people that code quests
all the time for SOE. About 90% of all the changes I made where *all*
basically those 3 lines, with small variations. Same with the class
agents, which all used *identical* code, with the exception of some
wording, since it was the *same* item they all gave you at that critical
point.
Thankfully.. They seem to have been less sloppy with "most" things in
EQ2. Though, I still have a "dark side" quest with some clown (which I
can't complete because of it) that breaks another quest, if you are on
it, unless you first delete the offending quest. Same NPC for both, but
he won't progress the others, if you are already on the evil one you
have to talk to him about, but can't, if you are not evil. Its quite
absurd..., but its like 1 out of 3000+ quests that I have done, which
has had a serious problem. Luclin in EQ1 on the other hand... was a
bloody total damn mess. lol
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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On 6/9/2010 7:51 PM, nemesis wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> This is what we get with consoles. People making games work perfectly
>>> fine on *that* hardware,
>>
>> Which is exactly the reason companies like consoles. :-)
>
> yes, and there's really no point in trying to optimize games for PC when
> consumers can just throw more hardware at the issue. Typical PC gamers are not
> really running Pentium 4 these days.
>
> Plus, it's much easier to cope with a single static architecture like a console
> than the sheer variety of hardware and drivers for PC. It's always amazing to
> see the swann songs for consoles pushing it to the limits than seeing Crysis
> running at 2x1080p, 64FSAA, 120FPS by running on a cluster. :)
>
> and then, consoles are typically about shared familiar entertainment on the
> living room rather than a lone experience on the basement PC... :P
>
>
Sigh.. No. That isn't how it should bloody work. If you can optimize it
to run well on something that has one core, less memory, and barely any
HD, it makes no damn sense that you can't take *that* optimization, then
just support the ability to self-tweak the damn thing to take advantage
of everything the machine *can* do that the console can't. Its like
buying a damned steering wheel cover for your car and discovering that
its been "optimized" in such a manner that it works fine on a hybred,
but placing it on an SUV will cause the engine to take 10 minutes to
actually start, sets the maximum speed to be 3mph, and all the seats to
rearrange themselves so you now only have room for yourself, and one
very small pet, say.. a hampster, sans cage.
It simply doesn't make any damn sense at all that this should happen.
Its the computer equivalent of attempting to empty the contents of a
puddle, and finding that, by the time you have to drained the contents,
it has mysteriously grown to fill a 150x50x12 foot swimming pool...
These games **should** run on hardware that is 10 years older than what
I have, based on the console its running on, but its using up enough
resources, processor power, and storage, to require something only 1
year older, and but 10 times the cost of what I actually own.
It has jack to do with the "difficulty of optimizing for a PC". The
consoles **are** PCs, and the hardware they are running is usually 3
generations older than the shit they "optimize" the PC version to run
on. This is **de-optimization**.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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> It has jack to do with the "difficulty of optimizing for a PC". The
> consoles **are** PCs,
Yeh, apart from the fact that the CPU and GPU share the same RAM (eliminates
the biggest bottleneck in PC games)
Or that the CPU has additional instructions for games (parallel vector math
stuff)
Or that the GPU has way higher bandwidth than even the latest nVidia cards.
Simply put, if you're optimised your game for xbox it probably will not run
at decent frame rate on even a modern PC out-of-the-box. You're going to
need to make some huge changes to your design to get it working well on a
PC.
For a start you need to get rid of all the CPU<->GPU interactions per frame,
and try to make more use of the GPU shaders. This is not trivial, some
effects might not even be possible to transfer. Next you probably need to
scale back on some of the full-scene post-processing stuff, as PC GPUs
simply don't have the bandwidth, maybe you can try to figure out other ways
to acheive the same via more complex shaders. Then you probably need to
re-optimise your vector math code for PC CPUs (or maybe the compiler does
this automatically, IDK).
Anyway, it's not very simple like you make out.
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> It's almost like those companies that sell you a printer for £20 and then
> charge you £80 for the ink...
Exactly. The ones who don't charge 80 for their ink have to sell their
printers for 40 to make any profit. Then nobody buys it because it's double
the price of the competition. In both cases they rely on the fact that
people only consider the "initial" or "base" price displayed in big flashy
font.
> My point is, it's not a standard-sized stereo that you can just replace.
Yes I understand that, most cars are like that now. It doesn't mean you
can't take it out though.
>> My point is the electrical connection is probably right there behind
>> *your* head unit, you just need to connect three wires to it.
>
> I severely doubt it.
So it would be more than a 12p audio socket then?
> If their intention is to force you to expend money, they will presumably
> have made this is difficult as humanly possible to prevent you not
> expending money.
They wouldn't put much effort in to it, believe me. Heck you can even spend
a few hundred pounds to modify the ECU to get the same performance as the
next model up, they could easily prevent that if they could be bothered. In
reality not enough people do anything like this to make it worth their while
working on it.
> As far as I can tell, none of the 4 available models has an audio socket.
Ah ok, so it probably doesn't exist then. Sorry I misunderstood, I thought
it was an option to have one installed.
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>> It's almost like those companies that sell you a printer for £20 and
>> then charge you £80 for the ink...
>
> Exactly. The ones who don't charge 80 for their ink have to sell their
> printers for 40 to make any profit. Then nobody buys it because it's
> double the price of the competition. In both cases they rely on the
> fact that people only consider the "initial" or "base" price displayed
> in big flashy font.
Personally, when *I* buy a printer, I tend to look for one that looks
like it isn't going to break after 3 uses, which usually rules out all
the £20 printers. But apparently that's just me...
>> My point is, it's not a standard-sized stereo that you can just replace.
>
> Yes I understand that, most cars are like that now. It doesn't mean you
> can't take it out though.
I'm sure you can take it out. The problem is that you can't put anything
else in its place, because it won't be the right shape and won't have
the custom Renault-specific connectors. (They're probably different on
every model of Renault too, just to stop you taking the stereo from an
expensive car and putting it into a cheap car.)
>>> My point is the electrical connection is probably right there behind
>>> *your* head unit, you just need to connect three wires to it.
>>
>> I severely doubt it.
>
> So it would be more than a 12p audio socket then?
I mean they've probably got all the connections in one of those big
block terminals to prevent you from knowing which connection is which.
(That's assuming there even *is* an input to the amplifier other than
the tuner and CD DAC inside the head unit itself...)
>> If their intention is to force you to expend money, they will
>> presumably have made this is difficult as humanly possible to prevent
>> you not expending money.
>
> They wouldn't put much effort in to it, believe me. Heck you can even
> spend a few hundred pounds to modify the ECU to get the same performance
> as the next model up, they could easily prevent that if they could be
> bothered. In reality not enough people do anything like this to make it
> worth their while working on it.
Just courious now, but... Does a Renault Megane actually *have* an ECU?
>> As far as I can tell, none of the 4 available models has an audio socket.
>
> Ah ok, so it probably doesn't exist then. Sorry I misunderstood, I
> thought it was an option to have one installed.
Fair enough.
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> I mean they've probably got all the connections in one of those big block
> terminals to prevent you from knowing which connection is which. (That's
> assuming there even *is* an input to the amplifier other than the tuner
> and CD DAC inside the head unit itself...)
I would imagine all the electronics are in the same box, it will simply have
speaker output on the back, plus some connector for the optional CD changer.
The CD changer probably has analogue inputs there, but you'd also need to
supply the correct signals to allow the head unit to switch to it.
> Just courious now, but... Does a Renault Megane actually *have* an ECU?
Probably a good dozen or two for various stuff, like controlling the
emissions and fuel consumption, the antilock brakes, the onboard diagnostics
(OBD) etc. All cars have been been required by law to have an OBD port for
about the last 10 years, which kind of requires they have a CAN bus and
associated ECUs to generate and collect the data.
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And lo On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 17:52:07 +0100, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>
did spake thusly:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Is that what it's called? I'll have to see if I can get that for the
>> xbox.
>
> Neat.
> http://www.xbox.com/en-us/games/b/burnoutparadise/default.htm
>
> For those who don't know what we're talking about:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-RjsMdOG6E
>
> Imagine that where one of the sub-games is seeing how much destruction
> you can cause in a busy intersection.
Yup that be the one; going dirt-cheap too. Better yet you don't need to
imagine that bit about the sub-game - it is a sub-game! It's called
"Showtime".
One of the unofficial sub-games is - the accelerator must be held down,
boost must be used when available, pass the controller when you crash; so
much fun in company "Ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod, owwwww. My turn"
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> It has jack to do with the "difficulty of optimizing for a PC". The
> consoles **are** PCs, and the hardware they are running is usually 3
> generations older than the shit they "optimize" the PC version to run
> on. This is **de-optimization**.
That is the catch: it's not "difficulty of optimizing for a PC", it's "who
cares when you can just throw more hardware?" Why should the developers care
when they can both save time and give hardware makers a sales boost?
Not such with consoles, which sport amazing tech at release time that remains
the same throughout all its usual 5-years cycle. They just gotta optimize it so
it's always shiny on the old hardware and sells well. Game-focused machines
also tend to get better sales, less piracy and better marketing than their PC
counterparts, which is why developers tend to focus on them during their
lifetime than on edgy PC hardware... which in turn just gets console ports
running at 256FPS and 2160p to justify the hardware...
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On 6/11/2010 3:19 AM, Invisible wrote:
> I'm sure you can take it out. The problem is that you can't put anything
> else in its place, because it won't be the right shape and won't have
> the custom Renault-specific connectors. (They're probably different on
> every model of Renault too, just to stop you taking the stereo from an
> expensive car and putting it into a cheap car.)
>
I said it before: You can get an aftermarket dash panel to fit the new
radio in the car. Sometimes even the manufacturer supplies a suitable
panel (expect to pay through the nose for it)
and, yes, the radio will usually have a custom wiring harness. You can
get an adapter from any shop that sells head units. Just match your
model with the selection available. They're usually model specific,
sometimes they'll have the same for 3 models.
The times you'll run into problems is when the audio system has an
external amplifier, as these are usually adjusted specifically to the
head unit's output power and sometimes won't even work with an
aftermarket unit. (Bose systems are notorious for this...)
>
> Just courious now, but... Does a Renault Megane actually *have* an ECU?
>
If it's been built in the last 2 decades and doesn't have a carburetor,
then it probably has an ECU. If it's been built in the last 15 years,
then it most definitely has an ECU due to OBD requirements. (Actually, I
don't know if the European countries have a mandate for OBD II or not)
--
~Mike
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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> That is the catch: it's not "difficulty of optimizing for a PC", it's "who
> cares when you can just throw more hardware?" Why should the developers care
> when they can both save time and give hardware makers a sales boost?
Also, since typically the console version sells about 10 times as many
copies and the PC version, there really isn't very much incentive in
concentrating on the latter.
--
- Warp
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scott wrote:
> Then you probably need to re-optimise your vector math code for PC CPUs
> (or maybe the compiler does this automatically, IDK).
I don't know about vector math, but I thought it was cool that the XNA
compiler would hoist loop constants out of the shader code and onto the CPU
side. I never heard of a compiler doing cross-CPU optimization like that before.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I've heard a number of people say this. (E.g., there are certain people
> where every time we have a CSS match, they have to restart their PC a
> dozen times before CSS will launch without crashing.) I find this rather
> baffling. I have *never* seen CSS crash, even once.
The most irritating thing is that it's almost impossible to know what
ultimately is the cause for the crashes and hangups. Is it a bug in the
game itself? Is it a bug in the display driver, or perhaps in some other
driver? Is it a bug in Windows? Could it be the hardware overheating? Is
the game simply somehow slightly incompatible with my precise brand of
graphics card (yeah, it does happen sometimes even though DirectX should
make sure it doesn't)? Maybe some combination of any of the previous, which
when they just happen to coincide causes the game to crash?
> > Of course there are drawbacks too. For one, games deliberately have no
> > support for mouse and keyboard.
> And this is the main reason why I will never, ever buy a console.
There are many games which are actually more enjoyable to play with a
game controller than with keyboard+mouse. I have a Logitech Rumblepad 2,
and eg. Batman Arkham Asylum for Windows was a delight to play with it.
I really didn't miss the keyboard+mouse at all. It's just that kind of game.
Of course first-person shooters are a completely different story.
--
- Warp
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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> > Ok, this is a bit hard to confess, but I sold myself out, so to speak,
> > kind of. I went and bought an Xbox 360.
> But the big question is... IS ALAN WAKE ANY GOOD??? ;-)
Didn't buy it yet. I'm still undecided whether I'm going to pay the full
price for it (especially given that Xbox 360 games are significantly more
expensive than the same games for the PC) or if I'll wait for the price to
drop a bit.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> Batman Arkham Asylum for Windows was a delight to play with it.
Yeah. It needed a couple more buttons tho. I never did get used to the
"double-tap to do this, single-tap to do something completely different." If
I have to think about how to trigger an action even while I'm fighting the
end boss, the control layout needs work.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Warp wrote:
> Didn't buy it yet.
You know it's going to be expensive when they're not selling it online yet.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 6/10/2010 10:09 AM, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>> Sony ever fixed those issues
>>
>> Ahahaha. At least then, when it was still partially Verent, you got the
>> "Sorry, citizen, but you are not allowed to do that in our game. We are
>> going to 'fix' this problem." They have moved from, "fixing bugs in ways
>> you hate." to, "use this micro-transaction to give us more money."
>>
>> I did hear the quest got a kludge fix. Anyone can just start it in the
>> middle, without the petition for citizenship paper.
> Lovely.. Took me about 20 minutes looking through the code for the
> non-SOE server to find and fix all the issues with it, and even without
> testing all of it, I am pretty sure it got included in the most recent
> patches, and all of it works. It wasn't that damn hard to figure out.
> All you do is look through to see what they expect, what they give you,
> to give to the next guy, then make sure you can go back to the last one
> and get a new one, as long as a "flag" that tracks your progress shows
> you finished up to that point. Heck. I didn't even have to add my own
> bloody flag. The key one needed is already there, there just wasn't code
> in there to say:
>
> if flag = 1 & !inventory_contains("thingie"){ \\i.e. you finished to
> this point.
> give "thingie";
> say "Someone found this laying around. Try not to lose it again.";}
>
> Someone half brain dead could fix it, never mind people that code quests
> all the time for SOE. About 90% of all the changes I made where *all*
> basically those 3 lines, with small variations. Same with the class
> agents, which all used *identical* code, with the exception of some
> wording, since it was the *same* item they all gave you at that critical
> point.
>
You have the benefit of working on a non-standard server. It just has to
mimic the external interface, internally everything can be customized.
Luclin is, I think , when they migrated to newer zone and NPC format,
but everything is still a static zone. After that is when they started
crafting the zones by Lua script. I imagine that having three different
types of zone files does complicate things a bit.
> Thankfully.. They seem to have been less sloppy with "most" things in
> EQ2. Though, I still have a "dark side" quest with some clown (which I
> can't complete because of it) that breaks another quest, if you are on
> it, unless you first delete the offending quest. Same NPC for both, but
> he won't progress the others, if you are already on the evil one you
> have to talk to him about, but can't, if you are not evil. Its quite
> absurd..., but its like 1 out of 3000+ quests that I have done, which
> has had a serious problem. Luclin in EQ1 on the other hand... was a
> bloody total damn mess. lol
>
"Dark side", you mean the betrayal and citizenship quests? Those I can
understand breaking things, just by the nature of what flags have to
change along the way. So many edge cases and flags to check, someone is
going to miss one of them along the way. Testing should have caught it
and fixed it by now, though. Of course, that means they know what to
look for, and if I remember right now you get forced to class shift when
you betray? If the quest is old enough that it existed before that rule,
well that just makes it even more warped.
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Phil Cook v2 <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> Scab! Heh. OOC why the Xbox and not the PS3? I'm not fan-boying or
> anything I'm genuinely curious.
Well, the vast majority of games are published for both the Xbox 360 and
the PS3, so there isn't much difference in that section. (There was a rather
big selection of exclusive games for the PS2, but since the PS3 is not
backwards compatible, it's inconsequential.) The Xbox 360 is 100 euros
cheaper than the PS3, which is a significant amount.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> Well, the vast majority of games are published for both the Xbox 360 and
> the PS3, so there isn't much difference in that section.
Unfortunately, it's the really *cool* (or at least very hyped) games that
only come out on one console. The games that aren't "gotta have it" are the
ones that come out on multiple platforms. My brother has several games on
his PS3 that I would love to play.
(Altho now that I have a nice HD screen, maybe it's worth getting a PS3
also, given that it's also a blu-ray player. But I'm not sure how long
that'll last, given the move towards downloadable movies.)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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On 6/11/2010 10:49 AM, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Thankfully.. They seem to have been less sloppy with "most" things in
>> EQ2. Though, I still have a "dark side" quest with some clown (which I
>> can't complete because of it) that breaks another quest, if you are on
>> it, unless you first delete the offending quest. Same NPC for both, but
>> he won't progress the others, if you are already on the evil one you
>> have to talk to him about, but can't, if you are not evil. Its quite
>> absurd..., but its like 1 out of 3000+ quests that I have done, which
>> has had a serious problem. Luclin in EQ1 on the other hand... was a
>> bloody total damn mess. lol
>>
>
> "Dark side", you mean the betrayal and citizenship quests? Those I can
> understand breaking things, just by the nature of what flags have to
> change along the way. So many edge cases and flags to check, someone is
> going to miss one of them along the way. Testing should have caught it
> and fixed it by now, though. Of course, that means they know what to
> look for, and if I remember right now you get forced to class shift when
> you betray? If the quest is old enough that it existed before that rule,
> well that just makes it even more warped.
No. Its not in the betrayal quests. There are two parallel quest series
for Ghoulbane, specifically the quest named Gogas Afadin. Basically, in
the evil quest line you get sent to Havras "Hack" Scutter, to continue
the quest line, who then sends you on to do something else. But, if you
are good, Havras **will not** show as a responder to this quest (worse,
having finished the good version doesn't prevent you getting the evil
one either). However, some muck up in the internals of Havras' script
prevents him from responding to "any other" quests, while you have
Gogas' quest to talk to him in your quest list.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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On 6/11/2010 9:21 AM, Warp wrote:
> nemesis<nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> That is the catch: it's not "difficulty of optimizing for a PC", it's "who
>> cares when you can just throw more hardware?" Why should the developers care
>> when they can both save time and give hardware makers a sales boost?
>
> Also, since typically the console version sells about 10 times as many
> copies and the PC version, there really isn't very much incentive in
> concentrating on the latter.
>
Well, when the PC version won't even run, this is hardly much of a
surprise... lol
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> (Altho now that I have a nice HD screen, maybe it's worth getting a PS3
> also, given that it's also a blu-ray player. But I'm not sure how long
> that'll last, given the move towards downloadable movies.)
It's rather irritating that if you wanted to play all the best games in
existence, you would need to buy 4 consoles (PS2, PS3, XBox 360 and Wii) and
two hand-helds (PSP, DS), each one in the price-range of at least 200-300
euros. That would be about 1500 euros. (And this assuming you already own
a PC capable of running modern games.) Plus the games, of course.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> you would need to buy 4 consoles
Or borrow. Or rent. I bet there's a business opportunity there, or at least
some neighborly lawn partying.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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>> you would need to buy 4 consoles
>
> Or borrow. Or rent. I bet there's a business opportunity there, or at
> least some neighborly lawn partying.
I saw on the news that there's this highstreet shop where, for a small
fee, they will sell your stuff on ebay for you and give you the money.
(After taking a small cut, of course.)
I mean like, seriously, you can apparently make money for *any* possible
service! No matter how pointless...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I saw on the news that there's this highstreet shop where, for a small
> fee, they will sell your stuff on ebay for you and give you the money.
Yeah, I was looking into that here. If you're just trying to get rid of junk
instead of making money on it, and you don't already do ebay anyway, it's
probably a good deal. It's that or give the stuff to charity and have them
do the same with it.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Eiffel - The language that lets you specify exactly
that the code does what you think it does, even if
it doesn't do what you wanted.
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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> > (Altho now that I have a nice HD screen, maybe it's worth getting a PS3
> > also, given that it's also a blu-ray player. But I'm not sure how long
> > that'll last, given the move towards downloadable movies.)
>
> It's rather irritating that if you wanted to play all the best games in
> existence, you would need to buy 4 consoles (PS2, PS3, XBox 360 and Wii) and
> two hand-helds (PSP, DS), each one in the price-range of at least 200-300
> euros. That would be about 1500 euros.
pfff... that's nothing. A PS3 here is about 1300 reais. :)
Wii is "just" 900 reais with games in the 250 reais range. :P
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And lo On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 19:44:36 +0100, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> did
spake thusly:
> Phil Cook v2 <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> Scab! Heh. OOC why the Xbox and not the PS3? I'm not fan-boying or
>> anything I'm genuinely curious.
>
> Well, the vast majority of games are published for both the Xbox 360
> and
> the PS3, so there isn't much difference in that section. (There was a
> rather
> big selection of exclusive games for the PS2, but since the PS3 is not
> backwards compatible, it's inconsequential.) The Xbox 360 is 100 euros
> cheaper than the PS3, which is a significant amount.
I grabbed the B/C 60Gb while it was still around, the price difference was
offset by the fact that I would be able to play my old PS2 games; that and
my PS2 was failing anyway.
Shame though that some games just refuse to play properly compared to the
Japan/USA full B/C models, but most work fine.
If I hadn't already been down the PS route I may well have picked up an
Xbox. Though looking back at the RROD that the early models were beset by
I'm kind of glad I didn't; that and the whole paid membership thing. I
mean, seriously, what with multiplayer taking up such a huge swath of a
lot of games charging for the privilege of using it. If you buy a game a
month that's a £3 surcharge on top to play it online.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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