Are you the same person you were as a baby?  If so, does that mean you are 
the only person you could possibly have been?  If not, when did you become 
who you are?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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On 10/05/2010 23:14, Darren New wrote:
> Are you the same person you were as a baby?

no

> If so, does that mean you are the only person you could possibly have been?

"What happened happened and couldn't have happened any other way"

 > If not, when did you become who you are?

Everyone changes every second.  It took your entire life to become who 
you are now.  Your question, therefor, is irrelevant.

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Zeger Knaepen <zeg### [at] povplacecom> wrote:
> On 10/05/2010 23:14, Darren New wrote:
> > Are you the same person you were as a baby?
>
> no
>
> > If so, does that mean you are the only person you could possibly have been?
>
> "What happened happened and couldn't have happened any other way"
>
>  > If not, when did you become who you are?
>
> Everyone changes every second.  It took your entire life to become who
> you are now.  Your question, therefor, is irrelevant.

sounds like it's either a knock-out or round two should come quick... :)

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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message
news:4be8773c$1@news.povray.org...

> Are you the same person you were as a baby?  If so, does that mean you are
> the only person you could possibly have been?  If not, when did you become
> who you are?

The answer is always "just a moment ago".

But, are we justified in expecting "sameness" to even be transitive? Look a
white sheet of paper and at one that's imperceptibly darker. They will
presumably trigger the same neurological response. Then switch the pure
white with one that's imperceptibly darker than the darker one, and repeat
until you end up with black. Does this mean a white sheet triggers the same
reponse as a black one, or that they are operationally the "same"?

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Zeger Knaepen wrote:
> On 10/05/2010 23:14, Darren New wrote:
>> Are you the same person you were as a baby?
> 
> no

Yet, oddly enough, you present your birth certificate as proof of identity.

When people ask you where you were born, you don't say "right in this seat, 
just a moment ago."

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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> Are you the same person you were as a baby?

It seems that in general speech we use "same person" to mean different 
things:

"He wasn't the same person after his accident."

"Is that the same person there that stole the clothes last week?"

So depending on which one you mean, the answer could be yes or no.

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Darren New wrote:
> Are you the same person you were as a baby?  If so, does that mean you 
> are the only person you could possibly have been?  If not, when did you 
> become who you are?

A philosopher once asked "Are we human because we gaze at the stars? Or 
do we gaze at them because we are human?" Pointless, really...

...but do the stars gaze back? Now *that* is a question. But I'm getting 
ahead of myself...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 11-5-2010 6:13, Darren New wrote:
> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>> On 10/05/2010 23:14, Darren New wrote:
>>> Are you the same person you were as a baby?
>>
>> no
> 
> Yet, oddly enough, you present your birth certificate as proof of identity.

No we have passports and ID cards for that. I can not remember ever to 
have needed a birth certificate. The only information that that contains 
is where and when somebody with my name was born. That is also in our 
city's basic administration.
Seems like another round where only USAsians and civilians of countries 
with equal defective administrations can enter. ;)

> When people ask you where you were born, you don't say "right in this 
> seat, just a moment ago."


Please define "person" and "you" (or "me").

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andrel wrote:
> No we have passports and ID cards for that. 

And what do you show to get your first passport or ID card?

> Seems like another round where only USAsians and civilians of countries 
> with equal defective administrations can enter. ;)

When did you get your first ID card? And how?

>> When people ask you where you were born, you don't say "right in this 
>> seat, just a moment ago."
> 
> Please define "person" and "you" (or "me").

That's what I'm getting at.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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scott wrote:
>> Are you the same person you were as a baby?
> 
> It seems that in general speech we use "same person" to mean different 
> things:
> 
> "He wasn't the same person after his accident."

That would be round two. ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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On 11/05/2010 6:13, Darren New wrote:
> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>> On 10/05/2010 23:14, Darren New wrote:
>>> Are you the same person you were as a baby?
>>
>> no
>
> Yet, oddly enough, you present your birth certificate as proof of identity.

no I don't, I don't even think I've ever seen my birth certificate

> When people ask you where you were born, you don't say "right in this
> seat, just a moment ago."

two reasons:
1. that wasn't my birth
2. explaining to people that I'm not the same person as I was when I was 
born, or even a second ago, is not really what they want to know when 
they ask that question :)

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Zeger Knaepen wrote:
> two reasons:
> 1. that wasn't my birth

But you're not the same person who was born.

> 2. explaining to people that I'm not the same person as I was when I was 
> born, or even a second ago, is not really what they want to know when 
> they ask that question :)

Exactly. Because nobody thinks of themselves that way. It's still "you" that 
ate breakfast this morning.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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On 11/05/2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>> two reasons:
>> 1. that wasn't my birth
>
> But you're not the same person who was born.

both physically and mentally, indeed, I'm not.  But that has nothing to 
do with the fact that I wasn't born in this seat.  I was partly 'formed' 
in this seat, but there was no birth-process involved :)

>> 2. explaining to people that I'm not the same person as I was when I
>> was born, or even a second ago, is not really what they want to know
>> when they ask that question :)
>
> Exactly. Because nobody thinks of themselves that way. It's still "you"
> that ate breakfast this morning.

Linquistically speaking, yes, that was me.  Scientifically speaking: 
that was most of me (some new cells in my body might have been created, 
and some old cells probably have been shed since).  Philosophically 
speaking: it's not even sure reality existed this morning :)

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On 11-5-2010 19:07, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> No we have passports and ID cards for that. 
> 
> And what do you show to get your first passport or ID card?
> 
>> Seems like another round where only USAsians and civilians of 
>> countries with equal defective administrations can enter. ;)
> 
> When did you get your first ID card? And how?

That was 30 odd years ago. How? I don't remember. But as there is no way 
to link my appearance then to what I looked like when I was born, I do 
not suppose the birth certificate played a role, other than proving that 
I did exist (but they could look that up in the database anyway (then a 
collection of cards, I assume)). My best guess is that my mum was there 
to say that I was indeed her son.
Identification is generally by facial appearance, for that you need an 
unbroken line of pictures where from one to the next you can with almost 
certainty say that the face in the picture is the same. Lacking that you 
need a witness. Interesting problem, but not the one you were aiming at.

Story: one day I was travelling to France by train (before the EU). In 
the train at the border they did check our passports. The man from the 
customs looked at the picture in my passport, then at me, then back at 
the picture. I though he was making fun of me, so I reacted in a way 
expressing that I though he was joking (not American of Israeli customs, 
so it was reasonably safe). I got my passport back and was allowed to 
continue my journey. Then I looked at the picture myself. Big lot of 
hair standing out almost afro-like and clean shaven. My image in the 
mirror: long sleek hair in a pony tail and a beard and moustache. The 
guy had a point. When getting my new passport with a better matching 
picture, the guy at the office that checked the old and new pictures 
also did not blink and simply accepted that I was me (whatever that 
means). I know that I looked like that 20 years ago otherwise I might 
not even recognize myself, my earlier self.

>>> When people ask you where you were born, you don't say "right in this 
>>> seat, just a moment ago."
>>
>> Please define "person" and "you" (or "me").
> 
> That's what I'm getting at.

I know.

BTW are we later on going to play the same game with species and 
forefathers? (for your convenience: just say no).

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On 11-5-2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>> two reasons:
>> 1. that wasn't my birth
> 
> But you're not the same person who was born.

says who?

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andrel wrote:
> On 11-5-2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
>> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>>> two reasons:
>>> 1. that wasn't my birth
>>
>> But you're not the same person who was born.
> 
> says who?

Zeger.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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On 11-5-2010 21:03, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 11-5-2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
>>> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>>>> two reasons:
>>>> 1. that wasn't my birth
>>>
>>> But you're not the same person who was born.
>>
>> says who?
> 
> Zeger.

are you sure?

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Zeger Knaepen <zeg### [at] povplacecom> wrote:
> On 11/05/2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
> > Zeger Knaepen wrote:
> >> two reasons:
> >> 1. that wasn't my birth
> >
> > But you're not the same person who was born.
>
> both physically and mentally, indeed, I'm not.  But that has nothing to
> do with the fact that I wasn't born in this seat.  I was partly 'formed'
> in this seat, but there was no birth-process involved :)

I like to think the baby that was born is the kernel running user-level programs
that were developed throughout life.  Our most visible facet is a shell really.
:)

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andrel wrote:
> On 11-5-2010 21:03, Darren New wrote:
>> andrel wrote:
>>> On 11-5-2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
>>>> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>>>>> two reasons:
>>>>> 1. that wasn't my birth
>>>>
>>>> But you're not the same person who was born.
>>>
>>> says who?
>>
>> Zeger.
> 
> are you sure?

Gazinga!

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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On 11-5-2010 21:50, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 11-5-2010 21:03, Darren New wrote:
>>> andrel wrote:
>>>> On 11-5-2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
>>>>> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>>>>>> two reasons:
>>>>>> 1. that wasn't my birth
>>>>>
>>>>> But you're not the same person who was born.
>>>>
>>>> says who?
>>>
>>> Zeger.
>>
>> are you sure?
> 
> Gazinga!
> 
Error, culture mismatch in line 18

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andrel wrote:
> On 11-5-2010 21:50, Darren New wrote:
>> andrel wrote:
>>> On 11-5-2010 21:03, Darren New wrote:
>>>> andrel wrote:
>>>>> On 11-5-2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
>>>>>> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>>>>>>> two reasons:
>>>>>>> 1. that wasn't my birth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you're not the same person who was born.
>>>>>
>>>>> says who?
>>>>
>>>> Zeger.
>>>
>>> are you sure?
>>
>> Gazinga!
>>
> Error, culture mismatch in line 18

OK. Misspelling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lpNg5b-i_M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO-lwr6iNws



-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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Darren New wrote:
> Are you the same person you were as a baby?

Nope.

> If so, does that mean you are the only person you could possibly have been?

Nope.

> If not, when did you become who you are?

When I, or others, made the choices that they did in ways that affect
me. Possibly, they, or I, could have made other choices. That would have
required other information* at the time.

In essence, I am the person I am right at this instant because of the
sum of instances before. The difference between this instant and the
next might be very subtle but, like any chaotic system, those subtle
shifts add up.

*information in the vague relativistic sense.

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On 5/11/2010 2:56 PM, andrel wrote:

>>>>>>> 1. that wasn't my birth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you're not the same person who was born.
>>>>>
>>>>> says who?
>>>>
>>>> Zeger.
>>>
>>> are you sure?
>>
>> Gazinga!
>>
> Error, culture mismatch in line 18

 >snort<

-- 
~Mike

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On 12-5-2010 0:03, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 11-5-2010 21:50, Darren New wrote:
>>> andrel wrote:
>>>> On 11-5-2010 21:03, Darren New wrote:
>>>>> andrel wrote:
>>>>>> On 11-5-2010 19:24, Darren New wrote:
>>>>>>> Zeger Knaepen wrote:
>>>>>>>> two reasons:
>>>>>>>> 1. that wasn't my birth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you're not the same person who was born.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> says who?
>>>>>
>>>>> Zeger.
>>>>
>>>> are you sure?
>>>
>>> Gazinga!
>>>
>> Error, culture mismatch in line 18
> 
> OK. Misspelling.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lpNg5b-i_M
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO-lwr6iNws

Ok, never heard that expression before. Still does not make much sense, 
but I guess that was the point.

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andrel wrote:
> Ok, never heard that expression before. Still does not make much sense, 
> but I guess that was the point.

I'm pretty sure it's not really in wide-spread use.  But things like this 
creep from TV shows or movies into popular culture.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
    Ada - the programming language trying to avoid
    you literally shooting yourself in the foot.

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On 13-5-2010 1:18, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> Ok, never heard that expression before. Still does not make much 
>> sense, but I guess that was the point.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's not really in wide-spread use.  But things like 
> this creep from TV shows or movies into popular culture.
> 
Not my culture, at least not until yesterday.

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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message 
news:4be8773c$1@news.povray.org...
: Are you the same person you were as a baby?  If so, does that mean 
you are
: the only person you could possibly have been?  If not, when did you 
become
: who you are?

I had a jealous and bully older brother. A jealous and petty mother. A 
removed and uninterested father. It has been a strong force in my life 
since day one... I had to make a lot of adjustments to deal with it 
all. Still do...

~db

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Darren New wrote:
> Are you the same person you were as a baby?

Yes. I have developed, but the trajectory of that development hasn't 
altered significantly.

> If so, does that mean you 
> are the only person you could possibly have been?

No, something drastic can throw a person off his track.

  -Shay

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