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On 2-5-2010 8:12, Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospam com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 May 2010 17:10:09 -0400, Warp wrote:
>
>>> How can you compare asking someone's ID to putting someone in prison?
>>> Aren't you exaggerating a bit here?
>
>> NO! That's the point - if you LOOK like an illegal immigrant, you have
>> to provide on the spot PROOF that you're not, and if you can't, YOU GO TO
>> JAIL. That's what the law is all about.
>
> Well, there are basically two options:
>
> 1) Demand that all people always carry a form of identification.
> 2) Stop trying to catch illegal immigrants.
>
> Which one do you prefer? I assume you understand the consequences of
> choice #2.
You are consistently missing the point and repeating your own false
assumptions.
It is *NOT* about stopping trying to catch illegal immigrants. It is
about the methods allowed to do so.
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On 2-5-2010 11:12, Warp wrote:
> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> On 2-5-2010 8:35, Warp wrote:
>>> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>
>>>> Based. On. Skin. Colour.
>>> Why are people so damn obsessed with skin color? Criminal profiling does
>>> not have anything to do with racism. Skin color is just one feature which
>>> can be used for profiling.
>
>> Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pars_pro_toto
>> You were the one who asked us to stop nitpicking words and finally try
>> to understand what you meant in stead. And yes, that made me ROFL.
>
> Then by all means explain what he really meant with "Based. On. Skin.
> Colour." if not "picking possible suspects of illegal immigration based
> on skin color is racism". Because that's what I understood.
Have you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pars_pro_toto?
Ok, "Skin" and "color" are generally used to point to any phenotype that
makes it more likely that someone is member of one group of people than
another. Could range from pigmentation to e.g. shape of nose. E.g. Obama
is "Black" even though his skin is just as brown as many a Mediterranean
guy that has an outdoor job. One of the reasons Obama is black is
because of his nose.
Even you can see the difference between e.g. a typical Dutchman and a
typical Finnish guy, it is common use to refer to that difference as a
difference is skin or colour even though I might be more pale than you.
If such differences are used to treat people different that is generally
referred to as racism, even though we belong to the same race (if such a
thing exists).
So having cleared that, will you now stop attacking people that use
these terms in this way and START LISTENING TO WHAT THEY MEAN.
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Darren New wrote:
> John VanSickle wrote:
>> The same principle applies here to the immigration law. If you don't
>> want your children to suffer the indirect consequences of your
>> lawbreaking, then don't break the law.
>
> You miss my point.
And you are missing mine.
> Where would you deport them to?
I would not *deport* the citizen children of illegally immigrated
parents. I would deport the parents, and allow them the option of
taking their children with them.
> You're missing the point. The nutcases want...
Since by your admission we are no longer on the topic of what the law
actually says, but what some "nutcases" want, I am leaving this part of
the debate.
Regards,
John
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John VanSickle wrote:
> Since by your admission we are no longer on the topic of what the law
> actually says, but what some "nutcases" want,
Well, yes. I've been saying that for three days.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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Warp wrote:
> You make it sound like in that last case the situation is different, for
> some reason.
OK. I'm going to go through the falacies one last time and bow out, because
you seem not to be listening.
<http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_35kDzNt-gTQ/RpmeXjcag9I/AAAAAAAAACE/Bpo04QrGBvc/s320/dead+horse.gif>
It's different in the following ways:
1) If you do not have ID at the store, you simply walk away. If you do not
have ID for the police, you go to jail until you can find someone to bring
to the police station your ID.
2) Buying something at the store is a reasonable action that would require
you to produce ID to complete the purchase. Walking down the street is not
an action that one would reasonably have to expect to prove your citizenship
to perform. This is closer to saying "before you get a job, you need to
prove you'll pay taxes." A law we already have.
3) We don't have any form of universal ID in this country that lists whether
you're allowed to be in the country.
> If most illegal immigrants happen to look similar,
I already told you that too is a fallacy.
If you have 100,000 mexicans, 12% of which are illegal immigrants, and
10,000 africans, 99% of which are illegal immigrants, you have more illegal
immigrants who look mexican than african, but you'd do much better arresting
the africans.
> concentrate resources on investigating males and skipping females.
But you're wasting resources by investigating males for whom you have no
reason to believe they're rapists.
> I really think people are way too hypersensitive with any kind of
> profiling based precisely on skin color. Any other type of profiling is
> ok,
No, really, it's not.
> If it significantly increased my own security, I wouldn't.
We have sayings about that too.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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Stephen wrote:
> It is not the enforcing but the method of enforcement. That is what
> whole argument is about.
Hey, I know. We could get all the legal americans of central american decent
to wear something sewn to their clothing to show they're legal, so the
police would know not to bother them. ;-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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Warp wrote:
> andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> What you are proposing
>> - is not effective
>
> What do you suggest which would be more effective?
>
>> - will violate rights of legal citizens
>
> Wait, exactly what am I proposing here that would "violate rights of
> legal citizens"?
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause
> Don't confuse what *I* am proposing with whatever laws they are proposing
> in those states in the US. I don't know what exactly they are proposing there,
> nor am I explicitly advocating those laws.
They're proposing to disregard the probable cause requirements for arresting
someone.
> Well, I suppose it could. It's basically a lose-lose situation. You can't
> win. Either you get many criminals go free which would otherwise be caught
> of more efficient measures were taken, or you anger people.
Nobody is against catching the criminals. We already have laws for catching
illegal immigrants that aren't being enforced.
>> - will increase racial tension
>
> I really think people are way too sensitive about what they perceive as
> "racism". Well, I suppose there's no helping that.
>
>> For these and a number of other reasons legislators all over the world
>> have decided it is not a good idea and made it illegal.
>
> Make what illegal, exactly?
Randomly stopping people and asking them to prove their innocence.
> As I said, it's a lose-lose situation.
Only if you take it to extremes.
Consider driving. Do you want police randomly pulling you over because you
have long hair, or you're driving a red car? After all, a majority of
traffic tickets go to people in red cars.
No. You want the cop to wait until he sees you do something wrong before he
stops you, yes? You don't want him stopping you just because you drive a
particular color car, or you're wearing a particular kind of clothing, right?
Note that your ancestry hasn't anything to do with whether you're in the
country legally. It's exactly as relevant to whether you're an illegal
immigrant as what color car you drive is to whether you're breaking the
speed limit.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Warp wrote:
>>> Let me rephrase: If 90% of illegal immigrants are Mexicans, then 90% of
>>> illegal immigrants will look like Mexicans. Hence it only makes sense to
>>> devote 90% of the law enforcement resources to check Mexicans.
>
>> But if 90% of the local population *also* looks mexican, then there's no
>> reason to favor checking mexicans over non-mexicans, is there?
>
> Wait, what? If 90% of the local population looks mexican, all the more
> reason for 90% of checking to be done on mexican-looking people. A completely
> random blind-testing would get you that.
Right. At which point you're not favoring the checking of mexicans. There's
no reason at all to use profiling to decide who to check, right?
Hence, the whole "most illegal immigrants look mexican, so let's check the
mexicans" is a flawed argument.
>> The problem with this sort of profiling is that you have to look at the
>> ratio of legal to illegal immigrants, not just the ratio of illegal immigrants.
>
> Exactly what are you proposing here? I don't quite get it.
I'm not proposing anything. I'm simply pointing out that the argument that
says "Most illegal immigrants look mexican, so let's focus our checking on
mexican-lookign people" is flawed.
> If 90% of the population of a place is of mexican origin, wouldn't it only
> make sense that 90% of the resources are devoted to checking mexicans?
Yes. But that's not what you suggested. You suggested checking in the ratios
of illegal immigrants of different backgrounds, not legal immigrants or
total residents of different backgounds.
If someone said "The town is 70% brown and 30% white, so that's the ratio
we'll check in" then nobody would complain. But you're saying the "the
illegals are 70% brown and 30% white, so let's check in that ratio", which
is a different statement.
>> If 10% of 10,000 mexicans are illegal immigrants, and 90% of 200 africans
>> are illegal immigrants, it makes much more sense to ask random africans if
>> they're citizens than random mexicans.
>
> Well, I suppose it does.
>
> But I thought you were *against* such "profiling"?
I'm simply showing the flaw in your logic. You're suggested profiling
*fails* to improve the efficiency, unless you use more information to tune it.
> So the police must not question anybody unless they have "probable cause"?
Yes. Well, sort of. It's complex. They're not allowed to arrest you without
probable cause. I.e., they can ask, but you're not required to answer or go
with them or let them into your house unless they have probable cause and/or
it's an emergency (e.g., they hear someone screaming for help inside).
> Wouldn't that be a bit hindering on criminal investigation?
Not especially. "Probable cause" is a fairly low bar. It's about the same
difficulty as having a policeman stop you while you're driving.
> If a store clerk asks for your ID in order to corroborate that you are
> indeed the owner of the credit card, is he suspecting you of a crime and
> thus making an illegal demand?
No. For one thing, if you don't have ID, he's not allowed to detain you. He
may chose not to complete the transaction, but he's not arresting you.
There's a difference there.
Nobody would complain if they said "before you can get a job, you have to
show proof of legal residence." (Which they already do, actually, but
apparently don't actually enforce consistently.)
> Would you argue that the store clerk must
> have a valid reason to suspect you of not being the legal owner of the
> credit card before he can demand you to show your ID?
No. For one thing, it's not my credit card. It's the bank's credit card. The
bank requires the clerk to look at my ID before the bank authorizes the
holder to use it.
>>> So what do you suggest?
>
>> I suggest that before you question anyone, you be required to do enough
>> police work to at least have a reason to question them.
>
> And what would that reason be, exactly?
I don't know. The employer not paying taxes on you, for example. Or you
riding across the border in the back of a truck that doesn't stop at the
immigration gates. Having no USA address last year when trying to get
something that requires you to list where you lived in the previous years.
Or you try to get a job, the boss asks for proof that you're allowed to be
in the country, and you can't provide that proof, and the employer tells the
police.
>> No, I'm comparing racism to racism.
>
> Sorry, I still don't see slavery
I wasn't talking about slavery. I was talking about freemen. That's where
you're missing it. You're thinking this law is targeting illegal immigrants.
It isn't. It's already easy to catch illegal immigrants. You just have to
enforce the laws we already have.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> On 2-5-2010 9:07, Warp wrote:
> > Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> >> Warp wrote:
> >>> If he is an illegal immigrant, why should the country he illegally
> >>> entered take responsibility? It's his own country's problem.
> >
> >> I think it's more a matter of "what are you going to do?" If the country
> >> won't take him back, it's not like you can leave him in a cardboard box on
> >> the front step.
> >
> > You send him to his own country's airport and let them decide what to do
> > with him. Give him the phone number of Amnesty International.
> >
> Just never, ever go into politics, please.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand.
A person enters country X illegally, without permission. Hence country X
deports him back to his own country Y. Country Y forbids its own citizen
from entering its borders (which in my books is a clear violation of
international basic human rights). This is somehow the responsibility of
country X, and now *they* have to take him back and feed him?
Exactly how does this make any sense? Why does country X have to pay for
this illegal emigrant, just because it chose that country X? Why does country
X become responsible for him so that they have to spend their tax money on
feeding him? If this illegal emigrant had chosen another country Z instead,
it would now by the responsibility of Z to feed him? How exactly does that
make any sense? What has X or Z made to deserve this burden? Shouldn't the
emigrant's own home country Y be responsible for the burden? It's *their*
citizen.
What happens if instead of one emigrant it's one million emigrants, all
of who illegally enter country X? Is country X still responsible for their
well-being if their country of origin forbids them from coming back? Why
is country X suddenly responsible for one million non-citizens who entered
their borders illegally?
Do you know what sounds more like? An invasion. Why should country X have
to accept that?
I'm sorry, but if your politics consist of ideas like "the country who
the illegal immigrant succeeded in entering becomes responsible for feeding
him", then I honestly wouldn't want that kind of politics. Please never,
ever go into politics, thank you very much.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> So all other types of criminal profiling are ok, but not profiling based
> on how someone looks like?
No. It's not legal to profile anyone before a crime has been committed.
> I really think this is political correctness getting in the way of
> criminal investigation.
Nobody minds being asked to show proof of citizenship if a crime has been
committed, or even if a crime *might* have been committed. This law isn't
that. This law is stopping people just in case maybe a crime has been committed.
> Right. Profiling based on gender is ok. Profiling based on skin color
> is not.
No. This is rounding up samples from all the men in case someone got raped
that the police don't know about.
> Well, I suppose if illegal immigration is not seen as such a bad crime,
> you could argue that it can be overlooked.
No, it's that the law requires the police to look for criminals without any
indication of where to start, or any indication that there was even a crime
committed.
You don't go around questioning all the men in an area, trying to determine
if they're hiding the fact they raped someone, *before* someone reports
being raped.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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