On 3/23/2010 2:20 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:17:58 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>
>> Warp wrote:
>>>    Some people argue that since homeopathic substances amount to
>>>    placebos in
>>> practice, the entire phenomenon of homeopathy is more or less innocuous
>>
>> Homeopathy is innocuous. Believing it works is the danger. :-)
>
> Point to Darren. :-)
>
> Jim
This thread is reminding me of this, which I just had pointed out to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAYVY2eLMck&feature=player_embedded

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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On 3/24/2010 2:16 PM, TC wrote:
>> Well, I'm guessing that water that has almost no benzene in it is fairly
>> healthy, yeah... But that's some pretty simplistic reasoning.
>
> Warp is quite right, as ever. He is just trying to emulate the reasoning
> behind homeopathy.
>
> As far as I could follow the topic on wikipedia, the whole thing has quite a
> lot of occultism in it. Dilution is just the physical side of preparation of
> medicines, the stuff has to be "dynamized" by the ritual shaking of
> waterbottles and so on.
>
> It is as sound a concept as that of Victor Schauberger's "natural flows"
> (supposedly able to create anything from free energy to anti-gravity to
> healing medicine) or the theory that water has a memory. I find it
> astonishing what people actually can believe in...
>
> Apart from this all: the strangest thing is the (scientifically proven)
> effect of a placebo - it is strange that it actually works. If you just
> really, truely and completey believe that a thing will work it can cure you:
> be it homeopathy, accupuncture (here I see at least in some cases a physical
> reason that might work - the needles blocking nerves>might<  have effects -
> though I am sceptical), faith healing, imbibing water at Lourdes or sleeping
> below a pyramid.
>

Yeah, needles blocking nerves that are a) never in the same precise 
physical place in every person, and b) where the practice seems to work, 
when it does, whether you use the "correct" points at all, or c) even 
one that could legitimately be connected to the part you are trying to 
cure, might be plausible. Well.. except for the three things I 
mentioned... lol

-- 
void main () {

     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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On 3/24/2010 2:22 AM, Invisible wrote:
> scott wrote:
>
>> I really wonder whether the people who make this stuff really do
>> believe in it, or whether they are just laughing at all the idiots
>> giving them lots of money for tap water?
>
> My guess would be that both types of people exist. The interesting
> question is in what proportions they exist...

Better question is, how many may realize it is fake, but fear the 
consequence to all the people they are *helping* by admitting that it is 
fake? Was an article in a paper recently with this and religion, where 
they found and interviewed like five priests who a) don't being in 
***any*** of the Bible, including god, but did believe that the 
consequence of admitting they don't believe in it, to those that do, or 
need the church, was too high for them to admit they don't to their own 
parishioners.

But, unfortunately, its also true that one of the things people are good 
at is taking a lie, telling it often enough, and getting enough 
"apparent" positive results from doing so, that they provisionally, then 
finally completely fall for it themselves.

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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TC <do-not-reply@i-do get-enough-spam-already-2498.com> wrote:
> Apart from this all: the strangest thing is the (scientifically proven) 
> effect of a placebo - it is strange that it actually works. If you just 
> really, truely and completey believe that a thing will work it can cure you: 
> be it homeopathy, accupuncture (here I see at least in some cases a physical 
> reason that might work - the needles blocking nerves >might< have effects - 
> though I am sceptical), faith healing, imbibing water at Lourdes or sleeping 
> below a pyramid.

  The placebo effect seldom *cures* any disease. What it does is to alleviate
symptoms within the limits of what the human body itself can do.

  This is especially so if the symptom is caused by the body itself. For
example, placebos can sometimes quite effective alleviating things like
astma attacks because an astma attack is, in fact, caused by the organism
itself as some kind of oversensitive protection mechanism. The placebo
effect can "convince" the body that there's no need for the "protection"
anymore, and thus the astma attack subsides. The same is true for many
other symptoms caused by a hypersensitive self-defense mechanism.

  Another effect that placebos can have is to induce the body to produce
endorphins and other similar stuff which alleviates pain. This can be
quite effective sometimes. It's curious how it works, but somehow it just
works: If the brain strongly believes that the pain will go away, then it
subconsciously *makes* it go away by secreting endorphins.

  Of course there are limits to what the body can do. A placebo cannot make
the body destroy a bacterial or virulent agent any faster than it would
normally do (if it's capable of doing it at all without the help of actual
medicine). A placebo cannot cure a genetic disease or disability, or cure
injuries any faster than normal. And so on.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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> But, unfortunately, its also true that one of the things people are good 
> at is taking a lie, telling it often enough, and getting enough 
> "apparent" positive results from doing so, that they provisionally, then 
> finally completely fall for it themselves.

That reminds me of Obama-care.

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Warp wrote:
>   Some people argue that since homeopathic substances amount to placebos in
> practice, the entire phenomenon of homeopathy is more or less innocuous
> (unless you count people spending money on it for nothing).
> 
>   Not so:
http://www.news.com.au/national/babys-eczema-death-was-parents-fault/story-e6frfkvr-1225708504277

Actually, homeopathy did have one enormous benefit in the past.

Until around 170 years ago, allopathy (what we recognize as conventional 
medicine) was still stuck in the quackery that characterized medicine 
during the Dark Ages; Mark Twain mentions in one of his essays that the 
shift from the ancient quackery to modern competence took place during 
his lifetime.  Most of the success that allopathy appeared to have back 
then was due to the placebo effect, and some of the treatments did more 
harm than good.

Then along came homeopathy.  Allopathy was so ineffective (and in some 
cases, downright harmful) that homeopathy was usually as effective, and 
often better.  This prompted allopathic practitioners to put aside their 
Galen-worship and conduct some actual research, leading to the discovery 
of the new, effective treatments that replaced the old, dangerous ones.

Regards,
John

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On 03/23/10 14:29, Stephen wrote:
> Believing it works for others, especially your children, is criminal.

	And how, pray tell, will you enforce such a thing?

-- 
Mary had a little lamb, a little beef, and a little ham.

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On 03/24/10 01:02, scott wrote:
> accept that fact and try another medicine.  For someone to be using
> something on a child in the first place that has never been proven
> better than placebo, and then to refuse to try something else when it's
> not working, *that* is criminal.

	See my question to Stephen: How do you propose enforcing it?

-- 
Mary had a little lamb, a little beef, and a little ham.

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>> accept that fact and try another medicine.  For someone to be using
>> something on a child in the first place that has never been proven
>> better than placebo, and then to refuse to try something else when it's
>> not working, *that* is criminal.
>
> See my question to Stephen: How do you propose enforcing it?

Same way as any other child neglect crimes.  It either gets reported through 
family/friends/school to the authorities who investigate, or in the worst 
case the death of the child triggers the investigation.  Then you search for 
evidence they didn't search for appropriate medical care (very easy if they 
admit to it!), then it's up to a judge/jury to decide a punishment.

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On 24/03/2010 12:13 PM, Mike Raiford wrote:
> On 3/23/2010 4:29 PM, Stephen wrote:
>
>>
>> Believing it works for others, especially your children, is criminal.
>>
>
> It should be. Reminds me of a time when we purchased a teething remedy
> for our son that was highly recommended by just about everyone. It never
> seemed to do the job as well as the topical anesthetic product we also
> used (Orajel). I got curious about active ingredients, that's when I
> noticed things like belladona, and some such with a 10X after it. After
> reading that I remarked that he probably felt better temporarily because
> it was a sugar pill, and sweet tasting things will calm a baby for a
> moment (They used a glucose-coated pacifier when they did the neural
> hearing check before releasing him from the hospital after they were
> born to keep him drowsy so the brain activity would be at a minimum.
> Worked a treat!)
>

Give me chemicals and E numbers every time. :-D


-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

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