Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> Also, if you floor it, nothing happens for 4 seconds, and *then* it 
>> takes off like a rocket.
> 
> This happens in many cars, but mostly automatics, where the transmission 
> is shifting down thru those six gears to get to the one you want.
> 
> Also annoying if you can't start and stop easily while driving slowly 
> (by which I mean 10-15mph).

This is mostly based on my experience of knackered old diesel engines. 
They all had manual transmission, just lots of turbo-lag. (And 
turbo-whistle too...)

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On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:21:29 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> Dre wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> It's got a CD-changer in the front, which is nice. It's slot-loading
>>> though, so any CDs you put in it are likely to get ruined.
>> <snip>
>> 
>> O_o
>> 
>> This logic astounds me!
> 
> In what way?

Well, I don't know about Dre, but I've never had a problem with CDs being 
damaged through a slot-loading CD player in my car (or anywhere, for that 
matter).

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:21:29 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> > Dre wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >>> It's got a CD-changer in the front, which is nice. It's slot-loading
> >>> though, so any CDs you put in it are likely to get ruined.
> >> <snip>
> >> 
> >> O_o
> >> 
> >> This logic astounds me!
> > 
> > In what way?

> Well, I don't know about Dre, but I've never had a problem with CDs being 
> damaged through a slot-loading CD player in my car (or anywhere, for that 
> matter).

  Yeah, but where will you put your cup then?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:10:42 -0500, Warp wrote:

>> Well, I don't know about Dre, but I've never had a problem with CDs
>> being damaged through a slot-loading CD player in my car (or anywhere,
>> for that matter).
> 
>   Yeah, but where will you put your cup then?

My car came with cup holders - I splurged. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>>>> It's got a CD-changer in the front, which is nice. It's slot-loading
>>>> though, so any CDs you put in it are likely to get ruined.
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> O_o
>>>
>>> This logic astounds me!
>> In what way?
> 
> Well, I don't know about Dre, but I've never had a problem with CDs being 
> damaged through a slot-loading CD player in my car (or anywhere, for that 
> matter).

Well, I've yet to have it utterly destroy a disk. But it has a number of 
problems:

- You cannot remove the disk from the drive without getting fingerprints 
on it.

- If the servo won't let go of the disk, or won't accept the disk when 
you try to push it in, you get scratches on the disk.

- I've seen drives where you have to "bend" the disk slightly to get it 
through the door. (Which probably just indicates a cheap drive, but 
still...)

None of these problems occur with slot-load drives.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:49:45 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> Well, I've yet to have it utterly destroy a disk. But it has a number of
> problems:
> 
> - You cannot remove the disk from the drive without getting fingerprints
> on it.

I manage to get it from the edges myself, but fingerprints aren't a huge 
problem - they wipe off. :-)

> - If the servo won't let go of the disk, or won't accept the disk when
> you try to push it in, you get scratches on the disk.

Sounds like a bad drive to me....

> - I've seen drives where you have to "bend" the disk slightly to get it
> through the door. (Which probably just indicates a cheap drive, but
> still...)

I haven't seen this one myself....

> None of these problems occur with slot-load drives.

Wait, what? ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> 
>>   I don't have even a driver's license.
> 
> Fun fact: I passed my driving theory test first time. One of the 
> questions was this:
> 
> 

Quizzical fact: I passed my car driving test first time, in about 10 
minutes, after one driving lesson and driving through a red traffic 
light and parking on the pavement (sidewalk) in a major city.

How?


-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:10:42 -0500, Warp wrote:
> 
>>> Well, I don't know about Dre, but I've never had a problem with CDs
>>> being damaged through a slot-loading CD player in my car (or anywhere,
>>> for that matter).
>>   Yeah, but where will you put your cup then?
> 
> My car came with cup holders - I splurged. ;-)
> 

Mine came with fish and chip holders as standard ;)


-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

> Quizzical fact: I passed my car driving test first time, in about 10 
> minutes, after one driving lesson and driving through a red traffic 
> light and parking on the pavement (sidewalk) in a major city.
> 
> How?

The instructor had a fatal myocardial infarction?

Heh, my sister did a handbrake turn during her test. She didn't pass.

I reversed over the kerb. Twice. I passed. Don't really understand that...

(I also don't understand why one of the manouvers they get you to 
demonstrate is reversing around a corner. This has to be the MOST STUPID 
THING EVER. You should NEVER, EVER do this in real life! So... WTF?)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:49:45 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> 
>> Well, I've yet to have it utterly destroy a disk. But it has a number of
>> problems:
>>
>> - You cannot remove the disk from the drive without getting fingerprints
>> on it.
> 
> I manage to get it from the edges myself, but fingerprints aren't a huge 
> problem - they wipe off. :-)
> 
>> - If the servo won't let go of the disk, or won't accept the disk when
>> you try to push it in, you get scratches on the disk.
> 
> Sounds like a bad drive to me....
> 
>> - I've seen drives where you have to "bend" the disk slightly to get it
>> through the door. (Which probably just indicates a cheap drive, but
>> still...)
> 
> I haven't seen this one myself....
> 
>> None of these problems occur with slot-load drives.
> 
> Wait, what? ;-)

*sigh* Tray-load. Sheesh...

About the only thing that can go wrong with a tray-load drive is if the 
disk isn't sitting in it properly, and it gets mashed when the tray 
tries to shut. USUALLY the servo system notices this and stops trying to 
shut the door. Depending on how cheap the drive is...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Quizzical fact: I passed my car driving test first time, in about 10 
>> minutes, after one driving lesson and driving through a red traffic 
>> light and parking on the pavement (sidewalk) in a major city.
>>
>> How?
> 
> The instructor had a fatal myocardial infarction?
> 

If so he couldn’t have signed the form.

> Heh, my sister did a handbrake turn during her test. She didn't pass.
> 
> I reversed over the kerb. Twice. I passed. Don't really understand that...
> 
> (I also don't understand why one of the manouvers they get you to 
> demonstrate is reversing around a corner. This has to be the MOST STUPID 
> THING EVER. You should NEVER, EVER do this in real life! So... WTF?)
> 
After my time, that one.	

But it is not uncommon to reverse around a corner. It is an acceptable 
way to reverse direction, reverse into a side street then turn right.

-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:37:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> How?

Your examiner was blind? ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:49:21 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> None of these problems occur with slot-load drives.
>> 
>> Wait, what? ;-)
> 
> *sigh* Tray-load. Sheesh...

Well,that's what I thought you meant, but it was funny to see you saying 
slot load drives were so problematic, but none of those problems existed 
with a slot load drive. ;-)

> About the only thing that can go wrong with a tray-load drive is if the
> disk isn't sitting in it properly, and it gets mashed when the tray
> tries to shut. USUALLY the servo system notices this and stops trying to
> shut the door. Depending on how cheap the drive is...

I don't think I've ever seen a tray-load player in a car.  Magazine load, 
yes (for a changer), but never a tray-load.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:39:57 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:10:42 -0500, Warp wrote:
>> 
>>>> Well, I don't know about Dre, but I've never had a problem with CDs
>>>> being damaged through a slot-loading CD player in my car (or
>>>> anywhere, for that matter).
>>>   Yeah, but where will you put your cup then?
>> 
>> My car came with cup holders - I splurged. ;-)
>> 
>> 
> Mine came with fish and chip holders as standard ;)

Cool.  I wish we had a good place for fish & chips here.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message 
news:4b69401a@news.povray.org...
> Dre wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> It's got a CD-changer in the front, which is nice. It's slot-loading 
>>> though, so any CDs you put in it are likely to get ruined.
>> <snip>
>>
>> O_o
>>
>> This logic astounds me!
>
> In what way?

In the "its a slot load drive" therefore "it will likely ruin my CD's" way. 
Sorry but thats a crock of s**t!

If you can ruin a CD in a slot load drive you aren't using it properly.

All the slot load drives I have ever seen you can load and eject the CD with 
one of your fingers in the hole, so no finger prints.  You can also grab it 
by the edges which also dont leave any fingerprints.

The servo arm that holds the CD is covered in rubber so doesn't scratch 
discs.  Not to mention, I've never seen one thats been jammed.  I've also 
never heard of a drive where you have to bend the disc to load, that sounds 
broken.

One thing that slot load drives dont let you do that tray drives do is let 
the draw jam the cd between it and the front panel if the CD isn't placed in 
the center correctly.  When this happens, you get bad scratches on the disc. 
This has only ever happened to me with older IDE type drives where software 
has closed the tray while I was loading a disc.  PITA!

Cheers Dre

Post a reply to this message

"Dre" <and### [at] gmailcom> wrote in message
news:4b6a0ed3@news.povray.org...
> In the "its a slot load drive" therefore "it will likely
ruin my CD's" way.
> Sorry but thats a crock of s**t!
>
> If you can ruin a CD in a slot load drive you aren't using
it properly.
>
> All the slot load drives I have ever seen you can load and
eject the CD with
> one of your fingers in the hole, so no finger prints.  You
can also grab it
> by the edges which also dont leave any fingerprints.

I have a slot CD player that won't always release my CDs.
Sometimes the CDs get stuck and often get scratched trying
to remove them. 2001 Subaru Legacy, Outback... I don't use
the CD player any more either...

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:37:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> 
>> How?
> 
> Your examiner was blind? ;-)
> 

Nor drunk.

-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

> I don't think I've ever seen a tray-load player in a car.  Magazine load, 
> yes (for a changer), but never a tray-load.

Likewise.

My mum's first PC had a slot-load drive too, and it didn't work very well.

Post a reply to this message

> In the "its a slot load drive" therefore "it will likely ruin my CD's" way. 
> Sorry but thats a crock of s**t!
> 
> If you can ruin a CD in a slot load drive you aren't using it properly.
> 
> All the slot load drives I have ever seen you can load and eject the CD with 
> one of your fingers in the hole, so no finger prints.  You can also grab it 
> by the edges which also dont leave any fingerprints.

I've yet to see a slot-load drive that ejects the disk far enough to get 
at the hole in the center. So the only way to pull it out is to grab it 
by the edge (hopefully beyond the edge of the data track...)

> The servo arm that holds the CD is covered in rubber so doesn't scratch 
> discs.

Sometimes the servo fails to detect that you're inserting a disk, and 
you have to force it a little before it wakes up and starts the loading 
process. Similarly, sometimes you have to yank the disk pretty hard 
before you can remove it. If the drive lets go suddenly and the disk 
touches the sides of the slot, instant scratches.

Admittedly, it's not as bad as tying the CDs to the back of your car and 
taking a trip down the motorway. But I dislike having *any* scratches on 
my CDs which I've paid for.

> I've also 
> never heard of a drive where you have to bend the disc to load, that sounds 
> broken.

Well, poorly designed or manufactured at the very minimum.

> One thing that slot load drives dont let you do that tray drives do is let 
> the draw jam the cd between it and the front panel if the CD isn't placed in 
> the center correctly.  When this happens, you get bad scratches on the disc. 
> This has only ever happened to me with older IDE type drives where software 
> has closed the tray while I was loading a disc.  PITA!

This is the only disadvantage of tray load. The disk must be sitting in 
the tray properly before you close the tray. If the tray suddenly 
decides to close of its own accord, you'll usually have a problem. But 
on any sensible tray-load drive, the tray doesn't close until you press 
the button. I very rarely have problems with it.

(Arguably the best ones are laptop drives, where the tray isn't even 
motorised, and you have to clip the CD onto the spindle. You can readily 
verify when it's clipped in place, and you can't possibly close the tray 
by mistake...)

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"Remember that a collision at 30 MPH is the same as falling a distance 
of 10 meters. Expressed in other terms, transporting a child without a 
restraint is the equivalent of allowing them to play on a forth-floor 
balcony without railings."

Hmm. A fall from a fourth-floor balcony might not be fatal. But you can 
bet there's gonna be broken bones! :-D (Altough if you fall of a 
balcony, you'll presumably hit concrete. The insane of a car is softer 
than that.)

"Under no circumstances should babies of children be allowed to travel 
sitting on the knees of another passenger. If a frontal impact occurs at 
30 MPH, a child weighing 30 Kg will be transformed into a missile the 
equivalent of one ton. You will find it impossible to hold the child, 
even if you yourself are wearing a belt."

Well, that seems crystal clear to me! :-D I wander what happens if you 
have an unrestrained labradore wandering around the car? (Like people 
regularly do, every single day...)

"It is particularly dangerous to put the belt round your childn when 
they are sitting on your lap."

OMG, WTF? PEOPLE DO THIS?? O_O

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:

> It's got a CD-changer in the front, which is nice. It's slot-loading 
> though, so any CDs you put in it are likely to get ruined. But then, I 
> always use custom CDs for the car anyway. If one gets broke, I burn 
> another copy.

Wrong.

Yesterday I thought I had a front-loading 6-disk CD changer which might 
even support MP3.

Today I discovered that there's no MP3 support, but more seriously 
there's no CD changer either. It plays one and only one CD.

So not only is this thing slot-load, but I'm going to be doing an awful 
lot of loading and ejecting disks! o_O

Post a reply to this message

Uh... oh crap. I really should fix the tax disk to my car before 
somebody notices! o_O

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 06:14:17 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:37:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>> 
>>> How?
>> 
>> Your examiner was blind? ;-)
>> 
>> 
> Nor drunk.

Hmmm...you weren't in the UK?

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:14:59 +0000, Invisible wrote:

>> I don't think I've ever seen a tray-load player in a car.  Magazine
>> load, yes (for a changer), but never a tray-load.
> 
> Likewise.
> 
> My mum's first PC had a slot-load drive too, and it didn't work very
> well.

I've only ever seen a problem with a slot-load drive once, and it was a 
PC; the guy who had it had set the desktop on its side under his desk, 
and when he ejected discs, it would throw them out - and since they'd 
land on edge, they'd roll out into the hallway.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:26:37 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> Sometimes the servo fails to detect that you're inserting a disk, and
> you have to force it a little before it wakes up and starts the loading
> process.

I have seen them fail to detect a disc, but pulling it out and re-
inserting it has always caused it to detect it - I'd never force a disc 
into a drive if the drive wasn't accepting it - that's a good way to 
wreck the drive.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

I just read the user manual. Man, that was fun!

First of all, all the diagrams are for a left-hand drive car. You think 
that doesn't matter? Well, the buttons on the central console are the 
other way around on a right-hand drive car. (E.g., the lock and start 
buttons are the other way around.)

Secondly, while the entire manual is in English (i.e., there are no 
sections for other languages in it like they sometimes do), none the 
less all the computer displays are still in French.

Thirdly, the manual contains endless instances of "if you have this 
option, press button A. Alternatively, if you have this other option, 
press button B." But which freakin option do *I* have?!

My favourit is the manual for the stereo system, which tells you how to 
load and unload CDs from the CD changer, but omits to mention WHERE THIS 
IS! (I have since discovered that I don't actually *have* one - contrary 
to the information given to me when I purchased the car.)

I spent 20 minutes trying to find the airbag disable switch on the 
passenger door before I figured out that when they switched the car to 
right-hand drive, they forgot to move the switch. So it's still on the 
right-hand side, it's just that that isn't the passenger side anymore!

And another thing. Does anybody remember when if you wanted to fit 
seatbelts, you just went to B&Q, bought some seatbelts, and bolted them 
to the car? Well of course *this* car has seatbelt pre-tensioners, 
force-limiters, front and side air bags, and who knows what else. So if 
you want to do *anything* to the seats or seatbelts, you have to get a 
qualified Renault engineer to do it.

Similarly, the battery. Want to replace the battery? No, you can't. It 
has a special vent port to vent the flammable gasses it produces. You 
have to buy a Renault-approved battery and have a technition fit it.

Want new tires or wheels? Well you can't just *replace* them; they've 
got tire pressure sensors in. (And they're colour-coded, because each 
wheel is unique so the computer knows which is which.) You need special 
equipment to replace the tires, and you can only fit Renault-approved 
wheels with the sensors in them.

Now manufacturers *always* want you to use their own parts. They make 
way more money that way. And I'm pretty sure that no matter what the 
manual says, putting non-approved engine oil into my engine isn't going 
to destroy it (provided that it's of the correct type). But it seems 
there are so many things on this car that require specialist equipment 
to work on.

You're supposed to get the crash sensors and air bag pyrotechnics 
checked annually - which can only be done by specially-trained Renault 
technitions with specialist equipment.

When you open the bonnet, all you see is a big sheet of plastic and "NO 
USER-SERVICABLE PARTS INSIDE". (And even here it still doesn't tell me 
WHICH FREAKING ENGINE I HAVE!) Some parts of the manual even tell you 
how to replace stuff, but say "due to how difficult it is to access 
these components, we recommend refering to a service technition". 
(Although it doesn't say *Renault* service technition at least!)

Then again, to replace the headlights, you have two options:

1. Unscrew a tiny plate in the wheel arc and stick two fingers inside to 
replace the mounting plate that holds the bulbs. The opening is about 
3cm wide.

2. Remove the entire front bumper assembly to get at the bulbs from the 
front.

Good thing I don't have the Xeon lights though - those have to be 
referred to a qualified service technition due to the high-voltage 
components inside. (Seeing a pattern here yet?)

And then there's the controls. I think I'm going to have to build a 
flowchart or something. Take one example:

The control for the wipers has 4 positions, A, B, C and D. In position 
A, the wipers are off. B is intermittent. C is normal speed, and D is 
fast speed. Unless your car is fitted with the automatic wipe option, in 
which case B is intermittent wipe depending on the amount of water detected.

[Don't you just love the way *you* have to know what the spec of the car 
is to figure out which instructions apply?]

Mine evidently has the automatic option, since it wipes every 20 
seconds, but now and then it suddenly starts frantically trying to file 
through the glass! o_O

Oh, but wait; read the rest of the manual.

When you stop the car, the wipers slow down. And when you move off 
again, they return to their original speed. Unless you move the controls 
while stopped, in which case the automatic slowdown feature is disabled 
and it acts like normal...

This is probably THE single most annoying feature. It's raining, you 
stop at some traffic lights, and suddenly you can't see ANYTHING. Or 
even worse, you stop at a busy junction, trying to find a gap to pull 
out into. This is THE MOST CRITICAL TIME to need to see what's around 
you, but no, your wipers have turned themselves off without your permission.

Unfortunately, it seems to be impossible to disable this highly 
dangerous behaviour - except by manually moving the controls as soon as 
you stop [or slow below 5 MPH, anyway]. There is apparently no way to 
make the wipers wipe at the speed you actually asked for. Because, hey, 
a blind computer obviously knows better than the human being trying to 
drive the vehicle safety. :-P

Still, at least the rear wiper actually works on this car. My old car 
had a fault where you'd press the button, and SIX MINUTES LATER, the 
rear would wipe. This car, on the other hand, just wipes 10% of the 
screen. You win some, you lose some. (I gather previous incriments 
didn't HAVE a wiper AT ALL - it's news to me that this is legal...)

A similar thing happens with the lights; they turn themselves on or off 
as they please. Apparently you can in fact turn them on even if the 
computer doesn't think it's dark, however. (You can't turn them off if 
it's dark - but that isn't really a safety issue.)

Now of course, the lights turn themselves off, not when you stop the 
engine, but when you open the door. So somebody has programmed in a 
feature [I forget how you select it] where the lights stay on for 30 
seconds after you lock the car. (They call it "guide me home" - 
presumably so you can see your front door or something...)

Ooo, check it out. I have floor storage! An-- uh, OK, I have a trapdoor 
leading into a box that's maybe 4cm deep. WORTH IT! Ooo, and the 
passenger side one has mould in it. Yay!

And the middle part of the back seat folds out into a table with cup 
holders. WTF?

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Hmm. A fall from a fourth-floor balcony might not be fatal. 


<Batman> I'm counting on it. </Batman>

> Well, that seems crystal clear to me! :-D I wander what happens if you 
> have an unrestrained labradore wandering around the car? 

You die.

BTW, it's a good idea to stick all your briefcase-type junk in the trunk 
instead of on the passenger seat when you drive.

> OMG, WTF? PEOPLE DO THIS?? O_O

Most people are pretty stupid sometimes.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
   I get "focus follows gaze"?

Post a reply to this message

>> OMG, WTF? PEOPLE DO THIS?? O_O
> 
> Most people are pretty stupid sometimes.

What I liked most was the warning to never put the seatbelt under your 
arm or behind your back. It seems so *ludicrously* obvious that this 
will result in horrifying bodily injury that I cannot believe anybody 
would do something so stupid...

...and yet, they bothered to print the warning, so...

I also liked the warning to never leave children unattended inside the 
car. Yeah, LIKE ANYBODY IS TAKING ANY NOTICE OF THAT ONE! Still, I guess 
the idea isn't really to keep children safe, but to protect Renault from 
lawsuits. ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 06:14:17 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> 
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:37:40 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>>
>>>> How?
>>> Your examiner was blind? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>> Nor drunk.
> 
> Hmmm...you weren't in the UK?
> 

Aberdeen

-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> And another thing. Does anybody remember when if you wanted to fit
> seatbelts, you just went to B&Q, bought some seatbelts, and bolted them
> to the car?

I don't think that's been an option for some decades.

> Then again, to replace the headlights, you have two options:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZWqU9X6PR4

The comments suggest they exaggerated the whole thing, but it makes a good
article. I especially like the way the presenter can replace the same bulb in
the VW in 20 seconds whilst drinking a cup of tea with the other hand!

As for the service stuff - well, that's the main reason I run an old, low-spec
car. I can do the annual service myself in an hour or so for 25 quid. :)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> In the category of "I realise nobody actually gives a damn but I'm going
> to tell you all anyway": I have a new car.

Me too!
http://www.zbxt.net/~aero/saab/sc_front.jpg
http://www.zbxt.net/~aero/saab/sc_back.jpg

> I had a mark-I Renault Megane. I now have a mark-II Renault Megane with
> a bigger engine. (I still have yet to determine *exactly* what model
> I've bought, but it has a 2.0 L petrol engine which may or may not be
> turbocharged.)

I doubt it's not turbocharged.

> - The clutch doesn't enguage until you completely remove your foot from
> the pedal. You can lift the pedal all the way from the floor to almost
> fully released, and you're still not moving. Only in the last 5mm or so
> of travel do you get any power to the wheels.

Traditional French clutch. All the French cars I've drive have had a
clutch like that. It's something I've never got used to.

> - You don't get a key. Instead, you get a huge lump of plastic. If this
> is within 200 yards of the car, all the doors unlock, and the "start"
> button is enabled. (Yes, you actually start the engine by pressing a
> huge "start" button. How stupid is that?)

I wouldn't like the automatic locking/opening, but starting with a
"start" button is pretty logical - as long as you don't separately need
to put the key to the lock (sorry BMW, THAT's plain stupid).

> This means that if I park my car and go shopping, and I happen to walk
> past a shop front that's fairly close to the car park, my car will
> unlock itself and allow anybody who notices and hops in to start the
> engine and drive off.

I'd guess the engine will shut down when you're far enough?

> (Presumably once they get out of range, the engine will stop and they'll
> be locked in? Or maybe it won't - imagine if you were driving the car
> normally and the radio ran out of battery power. Could be quite a safety
> issue!)

Ah yes, if it doesn't load the battery while driving or alert the car
that "hey, my battery is running out, please disable the safety shutdown
feature".

> I still haven't found a way to lock the car yet. Presumably if I walk
> far enough away, it will lock. (But I'll be far away, so I have no way
> of verifying this.)

Try pushing all the buttons! :D

> - Rather than having the normal 4 or the extravagent 5 gears, it has 6.
> I'm not sure why. You'd think they would use this to add more gears to
> the top of the range; but no. They just took the other gears and spaced
> them closer together. In other words, you need to change gear more
> often. 

It gives you the possibility to drive more economically - at least in
theory.

> (Which, considering that the clutch doesn't work properly, isn't
> much fun.)

It does. It's just French.

> - It does not appear to be possible to turn the headlights on or off.
> They just turn themselves on or off when they feel like it. (Presumably
> too many French people decided to drive off in the middle of the night
> with no lights on or something?)

That's actually a good thing. Light automation rocks, when you get used
to it you'll hate the German cars without it :-).

> In addition to all this, it has the usual minor stuff that all cars
> have. 

Ah yes, "nothing ever works properly". Fix the problems and it'll be a
nicer ride.

> The wipers don't work very well (but then, they never do). 

Wait, what? They never do? In the history of me and cars I've had *one*
car with *one* problem on wipers and that was a loose nut on a 14-year
old car!

> The
> brakes are very sharp. (Presumably it just had new brake shoes or
> something.) 

New brakes take a part of the glory, but mostly it's just the way the
brakes are built. I too have new brakes, but they aren't oversharp (then
again, I've always liked the feel of Saab's brakes - they just fit my
braking foot).

> It's taken me ages to fiddle with all the mirrors such that
> I can see properly. And so on.

Yes, and to get the seat positioned etc. That always takes some time.

> So it's a rubbish car then?

If it was, would you have bought it?

> Well, not so much. The steering is absurdly light - not sure if that's
> good or bad. 

That depends on you and what do you like. I like light but sensitive
steering - Audi had a steering that absorbed the road to itself, even
while it wasn't a light one, I didn't like that, but I assume someone
else does.

> The suspension seems... "better" somehow. The car doesn't
> tip over when it goes around corners, and driving over lumpy roads (or
> just ramps) doesn't shake you around so much. It's better-damped or
> something.

Maybe it's just not worn out yet? Well ok, probably they have had some
time to tune it up, it's not the same model as your previous car, after all.

> I couldn't say whether the 20% bigger engine makes it go any faster,

If it doesn't, it's crap :).

> since I'm constantly in the wrong gear. (I've yet to figure out how to
> access 6th gear. Every time I try I get 4th instead.) Selecting reverse
> is a tad tricky too. I guess I'll get used to it.

You will, you just need to find the 6th first to know how to get there.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> 
> My 4-gear Peugeot 1.1 seemed happy to do 60 or so in 3rd gear. But then,
> while it had a small engine, it was also pretty light too...

As I think I've mentioned earlier, I have an old Saab 9000 as a hobby.
I've bought a new gearbox to it, having extremely long gears - it will
take 120-130km/h (around 75mph) on 2nd gear before the rev limiter, so
3rd should be somewhere around 170-180km/h (around 105mph) :-). The
figures on standard gearbox are 100km/h (62mph) and 150km/h (93mph). I
can't wait to get to put it in the car :-).

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> 
> (I also don't understand why one of the manouvers they get you to
> demonstrate is reversing around a corner. This has to be the MOST STUPID
> THING EVER. You should NEVER, EVER do this in real life! So... WTF?)
> 

Why not? You can reverse to a parking slot (or out of it) or to a garage
for example.

Try doing it with a trailer :-). After that reversing only the car is
pretty easy...

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> scott wrote:
>>> However... is it a 2.0 T 16V or a 2.0 VVT?
>>>
>>> The documentation from the shop says it's the VVT. The stickers on
>>> the car itself just say "2.0 16V".

I think the VVT means variable valve timing.

>> If you have the turbo you'd probably be able to hear it, speed up to
>> about 3000 rpm in 2nd or 3rd gear, then take your foot off the
>> throttle, you should be able to hear it making a faint high pitch
>> whining noise.

Also roll up to 3krpm and floor it - if it's a turbo, it accelerates
significantly better than the old one did. And I do mean clearly
significantly.

> From what I've seen, if a car has turbo, it constantly makes that
> annoying whistling sound. 

No, if a car has a broken turbo, it may do that. A good turbo can also
whistle on certain occasions, but not constantly.

> Also, if you floor it, nothing happens for 4
> seconds, and *then* it takes off like a rocket.

No, if a car has significantly too big turbo and a crappy engine control
system, it lags 4 seconds with nothing happening.

Go ahead and give Saab 9-3 TTiD or BMW 123d a test-drive. They both have
*two* turbos, still no whistle nor mentionable lag.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> (I also don't understand why one of the manouvers they get you to
>> demonstrate is reversing around a corner. This has to be the MOST STUPID
>> THING EVER. You should NEVER, EVER do this in real life! So... WTF?)
>>
> 
> Why not? You can reverse to a parking slot (or out of it) or to a garage
> for example.

Sure. But we're talking about reversing around a corner, out of one road 
and into a side road.

> Try doing it with a trailer :-). After that reversing only the car is
> pretty easy...

Heh. I still have trouble just parking in small spaces. Still, my new 
car has a superior turning circle and sharper power steering. (Now if 
only selecting reverse wasn't so hard and the clutch worked properly...)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Go ahead and give Saab 9-3 TTiD or BMW 123d a test-drive. They both have
> *two* turbos, still no whistle nor mentionable lag.

Oh yeah, like they're *really* going to let some college kid test-drive 
a £400,000 car. :-P

Still, the only vehicle I've come across that had a turbo was a busted 
old Land Rover that was, like, 30 years old or something and rusting 
apart... Maybe they've improved since then?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> In the category of "I realise nobody actually gives a damn but I'm going
>> to tell you all anyway": I have a new car.
> 
> Me too!
> http://www.zbxt.net/~aero/saab/sc_front.jpg
> http://www.zbxt.net/~aero/saab/sc_back.jpg

...it's grey.

> I doubt it's not turbocharged.

Really?

The turbo version apparently generates an extra 30 BHP.

>> - The clutch doesn't enguage until you completely remove your foot from
>> the pedal. You can lift the pedal all the way from the floor to almost
>> fully released, and you're still not moving. Only in the last 5mm or so
>> of travel do you get any power to the wheels.
> 
> Traditional French clutch. All the French cars I've drive have had a
> clutch like that. It's something I've never got used to.

My previous car (exact same brand and model, just the previous revision) 
had a clutch which behaved normally. (Although it was starting to wear 
out TBH. One more reason to get rid of it!)

>> I still haven't found a way to lock the car yet. Presumably if I walk
>> far enough away, it will lock. (But I'll be far away, so I have no way
>> of verifying this.)
> 
> Try pushing all the buttons! :D

Turns out the button on the door handle will lock the door - if the key 
is in range.

>> (Which, considering that the clutch doesn't work properly, isn't
>> much fun.)
> 
> It does. It's just French.

[Insert joke here about the legendary tendancy of the French to not work.]

>> - It does not appear to be possible to turn the headlights on or off.
>> They just turn themselves on or off when they feel like it. (Presumably
>> too many French people decided to drive off in the middle of the night
>> with no lights on or something?)
> 
> That's actually a good thing. Light automation rocks, when you get used
> to it you'll hate the German cars without it :-).

This morning I drove to work on a dark, cloudy day - but the computer 
still decided I didn't need my lights on. *I* would have kept them on 
anyway...

>> The wipers don't work very well (but then, they never do). 
> 
> Wait, what? They never do? In the history of me and cars I've had *one*
> car with *one* problem on wipers and that was a loose nut on a 14-year
> old car!

The wipers leave little streaks behind at exactly eye-height [but only 
on the driver's side].

The rear wiper only sweeps 10% of the screen in the first place [because 
it's conical], and do almost nothing to clear even the area being swept. 
And, unlike any other car I've seen, driving at speed seems to somehow 
*attract* water to the screen, rather than repel it.

>> I couldn't say whether the 20% bigger engine makes it go any faster,
> 
> If it doesn't, it's crap :).

Well, yes. ;-)

So far I haven't been able to climb above 35 MPG - so that's 10 MPG 
lower than my old car. :-(

>> since I'm constantly in the wrong gear. (I've yet to figure out how to
>> access 6th gear. Every time I try I get 4th instead.) Selecting reverse
>> is a tad tricky too. I guess I'll get used to it.
> 
> You will, you just need to find the 6th first to know how to get there.

Selecting reverse requires you to pull the little ring. But, unlike my 
old car, it's at the opposite end of the stick, which keeps confusing me...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> 
> First of all, all the diagrams are for a left-hand drive car. You think
> that doesn't matter? Well, the buttons on the central console are the
> other way around on a right-hand drive car. (E.g., the lock and start
> buttons are the other way around.)

Still the gearbox is the same etc, so not everything is mirrored?

> Thirdly, the manual contains endless instances of "if you have this
> option, press button A. Alternatively, if you have this other option,
> press button B." But which freakin option do *I* have?!

If you don't know, you test it.

> My favourit is the manual for the stereo system, which tells you how to
> load and unload CDs from the CD changer, but omits to mention WHERE THIS
> IS! (I have since discovered that I don't actually *have* one - contrary
> to the information given to me when I purchased the car.)

Ask them to lower the price for that or to change a CD-changer to the car.

> I spent 20 minutes trying to find the airbag disable switch on the
> passenger door before I figured out that when they switched the car to
> right-hand drive, they forgot to move the switch. So it's still on the
> right-hand side, it's just that that isn't the passenger side anymore!

Aaahahahaaa :-D

> And another thing. Does anybody remember when if you wanted to fit
> seatbelts, you just went to B&Q, bought some seatbelts, and bolted them
> to the car? 

OTOH you now have officially room for 5 passengers (really for 4) and
also seatbelts for 5 passengers. Why would you fit more of them?

> Well of course *this* car has seatbelt pre-tensioners,
> force-limiters, front and side air bags, and who knows what else. So if
> you want to do *anything* to the seats or seatbelts, you have to get a
> qualified Renault engineer to do it.

Isn't it actually a *good* thing that it's a lot safer than your old car?

> Now manufacturers *always* want you to use their own parts. They make
> way more money that way. And I'm pretty sure that no matter what the
> manual says, putting non-approved engine oil into my engine isn't going
> to destroy it (provided that it's of the correct type). 

Yep. It just can void the warranty.

> But it seems
> there are so many things on this car that require specialist equipment
> to work on.

Yes, there are.

> You're supposed to get the crash sensors and air bag pyrotechnics
> checked annually - which can only be done by specially-trained Renault
> technitions with specialist equipment.

That's probably in the service program, right?

> Good thing I don't have the Xeon lights though - those have to be
> referred to a qualified service technition due to the high-voltage
> components inside. (Seeing a pattern here yet?)

OTOH you don't need to change xenon bulbs so often. I drove 90Mm's with
the original xenon bulbs on Audi. Just try to do that with halogen.

> And then there's the controls. I think I'm going to have to build a
> flowchart or something. Take one example:
> 
> The control for the wipers has 4 positions, A, B, C and D. In position
> A, the wipers are off. B is intermittent. C is normal speed, and D is
> fast speed. Unless your car is fitted with the automatic wipe option, in
> which case B is intermittent wipe depending on the amount of water
> detected.

Well yes, this is pretty normal.

> [Don't you just love the way *you* have to know what the spec of the car
> is to figure out which instructions apply?]

Yes. The other possibility would be that the manual says that you
*don't* have that one option and then it's added afterwards.

> Mine evidently has the automatic option, since it wipes every 20
> seconds, but now and then it suddenly starts frantically trying to file
> through the glass! o_O

If you have a properly working automatic wiper option, you simply don't
need to touch the lever yourself except for some rare wipe-once
-situations - just keep it in the automatic position.

> This is probably THE single most annoying feature. It's raining, you
> stop at some traffic lights, and suddenly you can't see ANYTHING. Or
> even worse, you stop at a busy junction, trying to find a gap to pull
> out into. This is THE MOST CRITICAL TIME to need to see what's around
> you, but no, your wipers have turned themselves off without your
> permission.

Yes, that sounds stupid.

> Now of course, the lights turn themselves off, not when you stop the
> engine, but when you open the door. So somebody has programmed in a
> feature [I forget how you select it] where the lights stay on for 30
> seconds after you lock the car. (They call it "guide me home" -
> presumably so you can see your front door or something...)

Yes. You can see the lock in your door to fit the key, it's very
practical :-).

> And the middle part of the back seat folds out into a table with cup
> holders. WTF?

If you'll take some nice girl to a car-picnic and it starts to rain, you
can benefit from that table ;-).

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> What I liked most was the warning to never put the seatbelt under your
> arm or behind your back. It seems so *ludicrously* obvious that this
> will result in horrifying bodily injury that I cannot believe anybody
> would do something so stupid...
> 
> ...and yet, they bothered to print the warning, so...

That's a warning I'd remove, to let natural selection do its job.

> I also liked the warning to never leave children unattended inside the
> car. Yeah, LIKE ANYBODY IS TAKING ANY NOTICE OF THAT ONE! Still, I guess
> the idea isn't really to keep children safe, but to protect Renault from
> lawsuits. ;-)

I read about a man who had to do something at work on a weekend. It was 
supposed to be pretty quick (a 5 minute thing). He was in the car with his 
child (presumably to go somewhere else afterwards). He actually spent *three 
hours* inside the office. When he came back, the kid was dead.

Temperature inside the car, which was receiving direct and strong sunlight 
and had no open windows: 50°C.

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Still, my new
> car has a superior turning circle and sharper power steering. (Now if
> only selecting reverse wasn't so hard and the clutch worked properly...)
> 

You haven't driven Volvo 940/960 or even 740/760, have you? ;)

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> 
> Oh yeah, like they're *really* going to let some college kid test-drive
> a £400,000 car. :-P

Neither one of those is a £400000 car. Or if was, Saab wouldn't be in
financial problems :-).

Mind you, I recall we're about the same age (I was born in late 1981)
and I just bought a 9-3 TiDS. TTiD costs only 3000€ more in Finland.

> Still, the only vehicle I've come across that had a turbo was a busted
> old Land Rover that was, like, 30 years old or something and rusting
> apart... Maybe they've improved since then?

I don't think Land Rover had turbos 30 years ago (not sure though).

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I also liked the warning to never leave children unattended inside the 
> car. Yeah, LIKE ANYBODY IS TAKING ANY NOTICE OF THAT ONE! Still, I guess 
> the idea isn't really to keep children safe, but to protect Renault from 
> lawsuits. ;-)

  Maybe they are philanthropes honestly worried about the safety of children.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
> ...it's grey.
>

Yes, yes it is.

>> I doubt it's not turbocharged.
> 
> Really?

Yep.

> The turbo version apparently generates an extra 30 BHP.

And an enormous amount of torque.

> My previous car (exact same brand and model, just the previous revision)
> had a clutch which behaved normally. (Although it was starting to wear
> out TBH. One more reason to get rid of it!)

It must have been broken :-P. My mother's 1.gen Megane did have the
French clutch.

> Turns out the button on the door handle will lock the door - if the key
> is in range.

...even if the key is inside the car?

> [Insert joke here about the legendary tendancy of the French to not work.]

It's not a question of working or not, it's a question of different
styles. It does it's job quite nicely after all, doesn't it? Therefore
it works.

> This morning I drove to work on a dark, cloudy day - but the computer
> still decided I didn't need my lights on. *I* would have kept them on
> anyway...

Then you should tune the automagic up to light them up easier.

> The wipers leave little streaks behind at exactly eye-height [but only
> on the driver's side].

Clean the driver-side wiper. If that doesn't help, change it.

> The rear wiper only sweeps 10% of the screen in the first place [because
> it's conical], and do almost nothing to clear even the area being swept.

Well yes, that is a common problem (the rear wiper being mostly cosmetical).

Change the wiper, it's worn out.

> And, unlike any other car I've seen, driving at speed seems to somehow
> *attract* water to the screen, rather than repel it.

The rear glass? Yes it does, because it's vertical. It's aerodynamics.

> So far I haven't been able to climb above 35 MPG - so that's 10 MPG
> lower than my old car. :-(

That's because you're not familiar with the engine and transmission.

According to SID (the on-board computer) I'm driving 5,7l/100km (around
41MPG - dunno if that's American or Imperial).

> Selecting reverse requires you to pull the little ring. But, unlike my
> old car, it's at the opposite end of the stick, which keeps confusing me...

Ah, you'll get used to it :-).

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen wrote:
> Clean the driver-side wiper. If that doesn't help, change it.

That, and scrub the road grease off the window.  And clean the other wiper 
while you're at it, if it pushes into the space used by the driver's side wiper.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
   I get "focus follows gaze"?

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen <aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote:
> Me too!
> http://www.zbxt.net/~aero/saab/sc_front.jpg
> http://www.zbxt.net/~aero/saab/sc_back.jpg

  Some vandal went and ruined your license plates!

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> 
>   Some vandal went and ruined your license plates!
> 

Yes, they really are everywhere...

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Still, my new
>> car has a superior turning circle and sharper power steering. (Now if
>> only selecting reverse wasn't so hard and the clutch worked properly...)
>>
> 
> You haven't driven Volvo 940/960 or even 740/760, have you? ;)

http://www.xkcd.com/671/

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> Clean the driver-side wiper. If that doesn't help, change it.
> 
> That, and scrub the road grease off the window.  And clean the other 
> wiper while you're at it, if it pushes into the space used by the 
> driver's side wiper.

I've yet to meet a car where the wipers *don't* leave smears. My 
previous two cars have both had dozens of wiper blades, all to no avail.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> Oh yeah, like they're *really* going to let some college kid test-drive
>> a £400,000 car. :-P
> 
> Neither one of those is a £400000 car. Or if was, Saab wouldn't be in
> financial problems :-).
> 
> Mind you, I recall we're about the same age (I was born in late 1981)
> and I just bought a 9-3 TiDS. TTiD costs only 3000€ more in Finland.

I *was* going to buy a Mazda RX8. Almost the same price. [Obviously both 
are second-hand.] It has a 3.0 L Wankel engine, agressive styling, 
bucket seats, the whole lot.

...but then I took it for a test drive. Man, it JUST DOESN'T MOVE!

I have since found out that the road tax alone is £500/year - that's 
more than my *insurance*! o_O

>> Still, the only vehicle I've come across that had a turbo was a busted
>> old Land Rover that was, like, 30 years old or something and rusting
>> apart... Maybe they've improved since then?
> 
> I don't think Land Rover had turbos 30 years ago (not sure though).

Well maybe it just *looked* 30 years old then. It was really, really 
rusty. (But then, it was a Land Rover.) For example, there was a hole 
under the accelerator pedal where you can watch the road go past below.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> And another thing. Does anybody remember when if you wanted to fit
>> seatbelts, you just went to B&Q, bought some seatbelts, and bolted them
>> to the car? 
> 
> OTOH you now have officially room for 5 passengers (really for 4) and
> also seatbelts for 5 passengers. Why would you fit more of them?

Once upon a time, some cars actually didn't *have* seatbelts, and so 
you'd have to go fit them. But yeah, today that doesn't happen much. My 
point is really that you now cannot modify almost any aspect of the car 
because there's so much high-tech stuff in there.

> Isn't it actually a *good* thing that it's a lot safer than your old car?

Sure is! I guess it got five stars from NCAP for a reason. (That would 
also explain the huge door pillars that obscure the view of the road...)

It just means that if you want to make any modifications at all, you 
have to go through Renault, which limits choice and increases the price. 
(Not to mention that we don't *have* Renault dealers in England...)

>> Now manufacturers *always* want you to use their own parts. They make
>> way more money that way. And I'm pretty sure that no matter what the
>> manual says, putting non-approved engine oil into my engine isn't going
>> to destroy it (provided that it's of the correct type). 
> 
> Yep. It just can void the warranty.

My car doesn't *have* a warranty anyway. ;-)

>> You're supposed to get the crash sensors and air bag pyrotechnics
>> checked annually - which can only be done by specially-trained Renault
>> technitions with specialist equipment.
> 
> That's probably in the service program, right?

Probably. If I had one.

>> Mine evidently has the automatic option, since it wipes every 20
>> seconds, but now and then it suddenly starts frantically trying to file
>> through the glass! o_O
> 
> If you have a properly working automatic wiper option, you simply don't
> need to touch the lever yourself except for some rare wipe-once
> -situations - just keep it in the automatic position.

Doesn't work like that. Like I say, automatic seems to just mean "random 
speed". Doesn't appear to be related to the road conditions in any way. 
(Although I presume if it were to rain really hard, the wipers would 
speed up.) The long and short of it is that if I find that I can't see, 
I need the wipers to wipe NOW, not in 20 seconds' time.

>> This is probably THE single most annoying feature. It's raining, you
>> stop at some traffic lights, and suddenly you can't see ANYTHING.
> 
> Yes, that sounds stupid.

It is.

>> And the middle part of the back seat folds out into a table with cup
>> holders. WTF?
> 
> If you'll take some nice girl to a car-picnic and it starts to rain, you
> can benefit from that table ;-).

If I *ever* get a nice girl to sit in my car, I'm not sure they'll be 
any picnic stuff happening. 0;-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message