On 2/1/2010 9:44 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:07:32 +0000, Invisible wrote:
>
>> I guess most managers just don't make a habit of telling everybody how
>> much more money they earn than you do...
>
> At least here in the US, salary information is considered confidential
> and isn't supposed to be discussed with anyone other than your boss, HR,
> and payroll.
>
> Jim
The rule ostensibly being to prevent people griping to the boss about 
someone else getting a raise. In reality, one suspects its so that the 
person working 25 hours a week at $7.25 an hour, and taking food stamps, 
doesn't found out that the guy two levels over him works 40 hours at $20 
an hour, and the guy at the very top probably makes the equivalent of 
$500 an hour, plus gets million dollar bonuses every year, even while 
his incompetence just erased your job and that of 2,000 other people 
that where in your same situation.

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:23:41 +0100, andrel wrote:

> Because I know he lives in Milton Keynes, I doubt if that counts as a
> real city.

Population is about 228,000 people.  I think that counts; it may not be 
Manhattan, but it is a reasonably heavily populated area.

Jim

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On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:41:16 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> The rule ostensibly being to prevent people griping to the boss about
> someone else getting a raise.

Well, yeah, and some people get really touchy about it.  I worked with a 
guy several years ago who found out the department's administrative 
assistant made more than he did; he asked me how I felt about it (never 
mind the fact that I probably made more than both of them anyways, but if 
I didn't, I really didn't care), and I said "good for her!" - which 
caught him quite off-guard.

I don't see salaries as a competition; never have.  There's a difference, 
though, between being paid competitively and being paid unfairly, so I 
look to the industry averages for a point of comparison, never my co-
workers (as if I could anyways).

Jim

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>> He's asking what city you're in.
> 
> Because I know he lives in Milton Keynes, I doubt if that counts as a 
> real city.

WTF?

It's a major urban center. Of *course* it counts as a city!

(It even has its own "cathedral" - although IMHO it's not really worthy 
of the title.)

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> You know, I've never heard anyone work so hard to justify staying 
> miserable.

You haven't met my mother, have you?

>> Currently my employer loses around four million USD per year. 
> 
> Then it's definitely time to find a new job, wouldn't you say?

At what point have I ever suggested that now is not, in fact, the time 
to find a new job? :-P

>> Right. Well then I guess it's just that everybody I've met happens to 
>> be fairly poor then.
> 
> If you rarely leave MK then that's probably true, yes.

You're right. I should go live in London, where everybody is still poor, 
but everything costs 80x as much. :-P

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>> Most of the "graduate jobs" I can find say something like £18,000 or 
>> maybe even £20,000 if you have a 1st degree [which I don't].
> 
> You're looking in the wrong place.

I had concluded that this was probably the case, yes. (But this just 
raises the question of "where should I look then?")

> I made something like $35k *after* 
> taxes upon graduating from college, at a company no better off than 
> yours. In 1985. And this wasn't in a big bustling city either.

Don't wages vary depending on which country you work in though?

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> You're looking in the wrong place. I made something like $35k *after* 
> taxes upon graduating from college, at a company no better off than yours. 
> In 1985. And this wasn't in a big bustling city either.

You're on the other side of the world, you can't really compare.  For 
example Andrew gets free healthcare and probably a lot more paid vacation 
than you did there, not to mention the cost of living, taxes etc.  Even 
between Germany and UK it is very different (eg Engineers get paid about 50% 
more in Germany).

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scott wrote:

> Even between Germany and UK it is very different (eg Engineers get 
> paid about 50% more in Germany).

Is this why Germany is legendary for having some of the best engineering 
in the world?

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>> Even between Germany and UK it is very different (eg Engineers get paid 
>> about 50% more in Germany).
>
> Is this why Germany is legendary for having some of the best engineering 
> in the world?

I don't think so, most Germans don't realise that they are getting paid more 
than people in the UK (and vice-versa I would imagine).  I think it's more 
to do with culture here, in that it seems (with my very limited sample 
size!) that more people are willing to pay for things to be done properly, 
and won't choose a cheaper alternative that is of lower quality.  This 
results in some products simply not being available because there is no 
demand for them, and probably contributes to the way things are designed in 
the first place.

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scott wrote:

> I think 
> it's more to do with culture here, in that it seems (with my very 
> limited sample size!) that more people are willing to pay for things to 
> be done properly, and won't choose a cheaper alternative that is of 
> lower quality.  This results in some products simply not being available 
> because there is no demand for them, and probably contributes to the way 
> things are designed in the first place.

Ah, I see.

Most people I've met see only the price tag. Yes it's nice to have a 
better product, but look at the price tag...

I think I mentioned at some point the horrifyingly low levels of 
customer service that most companies provide. Most people wouldn't 
switch to another provider to get better service, only to get a lower 
price. Three guesses where that lower price comes from.

Personally, I'm one of those people who doesn't mind paying more money 
if I actually get a better product. Then again, I shop at John Lewis, so 
apparently I'm crazy.

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