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http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Five_Facts_About_Wikipedia/en?utm_source=2009_Notice38&utm_medium=sitenotice&utm_campaign=fundraiser2009&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3ASinh_cosh_tanh.svg&target=Five_Facts_About_Wikipedia
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Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscape net> wrote:
>
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Five_Facts_About_Wikipedia/en?utm_source=2009_Notice38&utm_medium=sitenotice&utm_campaign=fundraiser2009&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3ASinh_cosh_tanh.svg&target=Five_Facts_About_Wikipedia
"Even though Wikipedia is one of the top 5 most visited websites in the
world, we employ fewer than 35 people."
What do they need 10 million dollars for?
How much does a bunch of servers, the necessary bandwidth and the salary
of 35 people need? 10 million dollars?
The tasvideos.org site had recently to be moved from the original owner's
personal computer to a rented server (because the original owner didn't want
to run it on his own computer anymore). The server is rented completely by
donations. A few hundred bucks were donated, and that will help keep the
website running for a couple of *years*.
Of course the size are not comparable, but still 10 million dollars
seems like quite a lot.
--
- Warp
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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> >
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Five_Facts_About_Wikipedia/en?utm_source=2009_Notice38&utm_medium=sitenotice&ut
m_campaign=fundraiser2009&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3ASinh_cosh_tanh.svg&target=Five_Facts_A
bout_Wikipedia
>
> "Even though Wikipedia is one of the top 5 most visited websites in the
> world, we employ fewer than 35 people."
>
> What do they need 10 million dollars for?
>
> How much does a bunch of servers, the necessary bandwidth and the salary
> of 35 people need? 10 million dollars?
>
> The tasvideos.org site had recently to be moved from the original owner's
> personal computer to a rented server (because the original owner didn't want
> to run it on his own computer anymore). The server is rented completely by
> donations. A few hundred bucks were donated, and that will help keep the
> website running for a couple of *years*.
>
> Of course the size are not comparable, but still 10 million dollars
> seems like quite a lot.
You're forgetting the Jimmy Wales ego stroking. :)
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Warp wrote:
> "Even though Wikipedia is one of the top 5 most visited websites in the
> world, we employ fewer than 35 people."
>
> How much does a bunch of servers, the necessary bandwidth and the salary
> of 35 people need? 10 million dollars?
>
> The tasvideos.org site had recently to be moved from the original owner's
> personal computer to a rented server (because the original owner didn't want
> to run it on his own computer anymore). The server is rented completely by
> donations. A few hundred bucks were donated, and that will help keep the
> website running for a couple of *years*.
What is the necessary bandwidth for a top-5 website? Heavy-traffic free
sites are always complaining about needing x money to pay for the
bandwidth they're using. It is, apparently, not all that cheap. So a
few hundred dollars doesn't even cover one month's traffic.
--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net
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Tim Cook <z99### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> What is the necessary bandwidth for a top-5 website? Heavy-traffic free
> sites are always complaining about needing x money to pay for the
> bandwidth they're using. It is, apparently, not all that cheap. So a
> few hundred dollars doesn't even cover one month's traffic.
Apparently they are using optical fiber made of diamond and coated with
gold and platinum for their bandiwdth costs to reach the millions.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> "Even though Wikipedia is one of the top 5 most visited websites in the
> world, we employ fewer than 35 people."
>
> What do they need 10 million dollars for?
>
> How much does a bunch of servers, the necessary bandwidth and the salary
> of 35 people need? 10 million dollars?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/a/a3/2009-10_Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan_FINAL_July2.pdf
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I appreciate wikipedia, and wiktionary and all the wikis, they need
donations, I'd donate if I had a little more income, believe me I would
but anyways, I agree with Warp, the expenditure is crazy expensive on
non-wiki related stuff, considering is the top five and even with USD 5
it will get lots of money and I really don't think the the site costs
that much to maintain or they'll hire highly specialized technicians and
more stuff, I think and feel they just want to have a nice life style,
spending USD 22.5K per day. If they earned USD 20/hour 8 hours a day by
35 people is about USD 5K.
As I wrote, I really like wikipedia and all that it offers but I'm
sorry, I think they should be more honest and change the web extension
to '.com'. So sorry but I think this is BS.
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Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/a/a3/2009-10_Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan_FINAL_July2.pdf
3 million dollars in salaries? For 35 people that's over 7100 dollars a
month. That's quite a salary for a free project funded by donations, I must
say.
And the million dollars for the internet hosting probably goes to those
optic fibers made of diamond and coated in gold.
Why do they need to spend 335000 dollars in travel, from donated money?
Are they using golden limousines or something? Have they ever heard of
buses and trains? Or are they too snob to lower themselves to use the same
cheap means of travel as common people?
288000 dollars in fundraising. I suppose it's profitable, given how much
their total budget is.
The legal spending I don't have a problem with, though, knowing it's
the US.
--
- Warp
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Donation means 5-50 USD IMO, even many commercial software costs less
than USD 50, plus non-profit/.org get discounts and special treatment
don't they? How much do they get on Google ads alone being hte top 5 of
The Net, come on...
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> How much do they get on Google ads alone being hte top 5 of
> The Net, come on...
What are you talking about? Wikipedia doesn't have ads and refuses to have
them.
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Warp wrote:
> 3 million dollars in salaries? For 35 people that's over 7100 dollars a
> month. That's quite a salary for a free project funded by donations, I must
> say.
Well, one page says that an additional 10 people are getting hired, which
would put the salaries back in range with what they were last year. That's
about 66K/year, which is pretty shabby for technical work in San Francisco.
Page 19 shows 38.5 people, which comes out to an average of $78K/year, which
still isn't what I'd call a lot of money in San Francisco for tech,
fundraising, or finance&admin work. This is where a secretary averages $44K,
understand. A *legal* secretary (i.e., a secretary for a lawyer who
therefore has to know what some of the legal terms mean and etc) makes $70K.
It might be a bit high, but it's not what I'd call outrageous.
> And the million dollars for the internet hosting probably goes to those
> optic fibers made of diamond and coated in gold.
Also of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Statistics
From what I can figure, it's bursting in the single-digit-gigabits per
second range of bandwidth.
This guy seems to think it's roughly $2K-$10K/month for bandwidth. Quadruple
the high end of that for maintenance, rental, electricity, and servers?
Still half a million.
> Why do they need to spend 335000 dollars in travel, from donated money?
> Are they using golden limousines or something? Have they ever heard of
> buses and trains?
That doesn't really work in the USA. Unless you want to travel for 14 hours
to have a 2-hour meeting in the next city over. Stuff is surprisingly far
apart in the US compared to what many Europeans are used to.
> 288000 dollars in fundraising. I suppose it's profitable, given how much
> their total budget is.
>
> The legal spending I don't have a problem with, though, knowing it's
> the US.
That probably includes all the accounting and taxes and such as well, paying
auditors, etc. Basically "legal" covers "everything required by law to run
the corporation."
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
You know the kamikaze monsters in Serious Sam
with the bombs for hands, that go AAAAAHHHHHHHH!
I want that for a ring tone.
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> If they earned USD 20/hour 8 hours a day
Just so ya know... The people running the cash registers at the grocery
store in my city? $17/hour. $50/hour for experienced technical people is
well underpaid.
Maybe with the crappy economy we're having that'll change, but heck I made
more than $20/hour when I got out of college several decades ago.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
You know the kamikaze monsters in Serious Sam
with the bombs for hands, that go AAAAAHHHHHHHH!
I want that for a ring tone.
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Page 19 shows 38.5 people, which comes out to an average of $78K/year, which
> still isn't what I'd call a lot of money in San Francisco for tech,
> fundraising, or finance&admin work.
Salaries are filthy high in the US, especially taking into account that
taxes and expenses in general are considerably lower than here.
AFAIK the average MSc in Finland earns much less than that, has to pay
a lot more in taxes and living expenses are much higher.
I'm probably biased because of living here, but $78K/year is what I call
"filthy rich".
> > Why do they need to spend 335000 dollars in travel, from donated money?
> > Are they using golden limousines or something? Have they ever heard of
> > buses and trains?
> That doesn't really work in the USA. Unless you want to travel for 14 hours
> to have a 2-hour meeting in the next city over. Stuff is surprisingly far
> apart in the US compared to what many Europeans are used to.
How much does the average plane flight from one city to another in the
US cost? I have no idea, but I'd bet it should be *at most* in the order
of $1000 (and I'm probably overestimating. That would mean one plane flight
almost every day of the year.
--
- Warp
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On 11/24/09 18:17, Darren New wrote:
> Just so ya know... The people running the cash registers at the grocery
> store in my city? $17/hour. $50/hour for experienced technical people is
> well underpaid.
The key phrase is "my city".<G>
--
DOS means never having to live hand-to-mouse
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On 11/24/09 16:31, Warp wrote:
> Nicolas Alvarez<nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/a/a3/2009-10_Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan_FINAL_July2.pdf
>
> 3 million dollars in salaries? For 35 people that's over 7100 dollars a
> month. That's quite a salary for a free project funded by donations, I must
> say.
It's a good salary, but need not be very high depending on where you
live. If you need your staff to be quite good, pay them more then what
the competition pays. That rule still applies to nonprofits, etc.
--
DOS means never having to live hand-to-mouse
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On 11/24/09 18:28, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Page 19 shows 38.5 people, which comes out to an average of $78K/year, which
>> still isn't what I'd call a lot of money in San Francisco for tech,
>> fundraising, or finance&admin work.
>
> Salaries are filthy high in the US, especially taking into account that
> taxes and expenses in general are considerably lower than here.
They may be high, but they're not filthy.<G>
If there's a fundamental problem with high salaries, then blame the
economic system, not the companies or Wikimedia.
> AFAIK the average MSc in Finland earns much less than that, has to pay
> a lot more in taxes and living expenses are much higher.
>
> I'm probably biased because of living here, but $78K/year is what I call
> "filthy rich".
Well, I recall a comparison of what senior people in a category of
IT/programming make in different countries (I forgot exactly what
category, but it wasn't some obscure one). Finland was well above the
US, and either it or Norway were top among industrialized countries.
And you have to take cost of living into account. $78000/yr is really
good in many cities in the US, but as Darren pointed out, it's not
particularly high in SF, where the cost of living is very high. It
wouldn't surprise me if any particularly good programmer with an MS
degree would refuse to work for that salary over there.
How much do you pay in rent?
And I never understood the system too well, but perhaps that 78000 is
supposed to cover additional expenses not counted as the salary (health
insurance benefits, retirement benefits, etc). So the actual "salary"
that the employee receives may be less. In a company that provide
employees with health insurance, if everyone's salary is officially
$70,000, the company is paying quite a bit more than 70,000 times the
number of people, and their books will perhaps indicate it as such.
Some of your concerns may be valid, but I'm not sure I see the need for
excessive griping. As long as they're providing the relevant
information, you can do the analysis (as you're doing), and simply
choose not to donate. There's nothing morally wrong with them taking
first class plane flights on donated money, as long as they don't
mislead anyone about it...
--
DOS means never having to live hand-to-mouse
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Warp wrote:
> I'm probably biased because of living here, but $78K/year is what I call
> "filthy rich".
It also depends where you live. That's pretty low for San Francisco, but
very high for (say) some small town in the mid-west.
> How much does the average plane flight from one city to another in the
> US cost?
It depends how far in advance you schedule and such; it varies from $100 to
several thousand, even for adjacent seats on the same flight. Generally with
a bit of brains you can keep it under a three hundred dollars. Then there
might be hotel expenses, food, transportation (taxi, car rental, etc), and
so on. But yeah, if you can't keep it under $1000/day for travel, you're
probably doing something wrong. But you can drive cross-country on a bus for
like $100 if you want to take a week to do that.
Even the salaries might seem high, given it's a $78K *average*. But they're
not counting janitors, receptionists, etc., so having everyone at the high
end doesn't seem unreasonable there.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
You know the kamikaze monsters in Serious Sam
with the bombs for hands, that go AAAAAHHHHHHHH!
I want that for a ring tone.
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Neeum Zawan wrote:
> On 11/24/09 18:17, Darren New wrote:
>> Just so ya know... The people running the cash registers at the grocery
>> store in my city? $17/hour. $50/hour for experienced technical people is
>> well underpaid.
>
> The key phrase is "my city".<G>
Right. And mine is probably a bit cheaper than San Francisco, but not a
whole lot cheaper. You're looking at one of the most desirable places to
live here.
We call it "sun tax". ;-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
You know the kamikaze monsters in Serious Sam
with the bombs for hands, that go AAAAAHHHHHHHH!
I want that for a ring tone.
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"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:4b0c5eac@news.povray.org...
> Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> >
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/a/a3/2009-10_Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan_FINAL_July2.pdf
>
> 3 million dollars in salaries? For 35 people that's over 7100 dollars a
> month. That's quite a salary for a free project funded by donations, I
must
> say.
I agree, but it's not speific to wikipedia. A lot of charities and
organizations supported by donations bring in income for its management and
employees that rivals the richest of companies. On one hand, all those
people have to make a living too. On the other hand, the name "charity" or
"donation supported" may give a false impression to the unsuspecting public
that the organization somehow runs more efficiently or with less expense
than a commercial business. If anything, tax breaks and non-competitiveness
results in more inefficiencies and more luxury-class expenses.
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Warp wrote:
> I'm probably biased because of living here, but $78K/year is what I call
> "filthy rich".
Actually, if they mean "payroll expenses" instead of "salaries and wages",
then this $78K includes health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance
to buy glasses with, prescription drug insurance, worker's compensation
(another insurance mandated by the government), unemployment insurance (that
pays people after you fire them), social security insurance (a tax that pays
what's essentially pensions for retired people without pensions that isn't
in any sense insurance), potentially life insurance and whatever
pension/retirement stuff the company wants to pay, along with the
administrative overhead for such (like the cost of dealing with the
insurance companies, the retirement fund companies, etc).
The taxes are going to add up to at least 10% or 15% of that number, even if
you provide the minimum you're allowed to provide. And if I was going to run
a company with only 30 employees, I'd certainly have the company provide for
us an excellent insurance and retirement package.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
You know the kamikaze monsters in Serious Sam
with the bombs for hands, that go AAAAAHHHHHHHH!
I want that for a ring tone.
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>> The key phrase is "my city".<G>
>
> Right. And mine is probably a bit cheaper than San Francisco, but not a
> whole lot cheaper. You're looking at one of the most desirable places to
> live here.
>
> We call it "sun tax". ;-)
They have sun in SF?
[YES, I'M JOKING!]
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>> We call it "sun tax". ;-)
>
> They have sun in SF?
Dunno, when I was there is was foggy as hell the whole time (this was
January though).
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"scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> a écrit dans le message de news:
4b0cfaef$1@news.povray.org...
>>> We call it "sun tax". ;-)
>>
>> They have sun in SF?
>
> Dunno, when I was there is was foggy as hell the whole time (this was
> January though).
>
They have fog in hell?
Marc
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scott wrote:
>>> We call it "sun tax". ;-)
>>
>> They have sun in SF?
>
> Dunno, when I was there is was foggy as hell the whole time (this was
> January though).
Only at the lower elevations.
Well, *we* call it Sun Tax. I don't know what San Fran calls it.
|||||||||
VVVVVVVVV
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
You know the kamikaze monsters in Serious Sam
with the bombs for hands, that go AAAAAHHHHHHHH!
I want that for a ring tone.
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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> What are you talking about? Wikipedia doesn't have ads and refuses to have
> them.
I stand correct on this, but almost everyone in The Net is doing Google
Ads SPECIALLY .org/non-profit/open-source precisely to aid them pay
their costs and will make much sense for Wikipedia to do so.
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On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:20:40 -0500, Warp wrote:
> Of course the size are not comparable, but still 10 million dollars
> seems like quite a lot.
I agree, when I saw that donation amount on the website, I about fell out
of my chair.
Jim
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Warp wrote:
> How much does the average plane flight from one city to another in the
> US cost?
http://travel.aol.com/
I have seen offers as low as USD 25 per ticket, since I have aim.com
free e-mail accounts, and usually browse the 'AIM Today' news.
I have seen throughout my life that 'Americans' a.k.a. USA Citizens
(Actually anyone living in the American continent is an American), like
to live big and spend big, that's why the inflated salaries everywhere,
this causes 'extra' expenses to be huge, since they always have a big
"spare".
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>> Of course the size are not comparable, but still 10 million dollars
>> seems like quite a lot.
>
> I agree, when I saw that donation amount on the website, I about fell out
> of my chair.
Yeah, I keep wondering why anybody would denote. I mean, worst case
scenario: Wikipedia vanishes off the face of the Internet.
...and we care because...?
(And hell, I spend my *entire day* on there mostly!)
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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Yeah, I keep wondering why anybody would denote. I mean, worst case
> scenario: Wikipedia vanishes off the face of the Internet.
I don't think wikipedia would vanish if they lowered their budget a bit.
--
- Warp
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>> Yeah, I keep wondering why anybody would denote. I mean, worst case
>> scenario: Wikipedia vanishes off the face of the Internet.
>
> I don't think wikipedia would vanish if they lowered their budget a bit.
Neither do I. I was proposing the Worst Case Scenario. (And pointing out
that even that isn't especially bad.)
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On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 05:48:54 -0500, Warp wrote:
> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Yeah, I keep wondering why anybody would denote. I mean, worst case
>> scenario: Wikipedia vanishes off the face of the Internet.
>
> I don't think wikipedia would vanish if they lowered their budget a
> bit.
I think they want us to think that's the case, but I agree with you....
Jim
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> What do they need 10 million dollars for?
Slide 15 explains how it's broken down:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/a/a3/2009-10_Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan_FINAL_July2.pdf
Majority ($3m) is on salaries, if they employ 35 people that's $85k per
employee which seems pretty low (here we have to budget £140k per
employee) - don't forget that's how much it costs the company, not how much
the employee gets.
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