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On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:41:12 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:53:33 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yay! We listened to Ep1, and I was wondering when we were finally
>> going to get an episode of MC. Will grab it (should have shown up on
>> uknova by now?).
>>
>> Jim
>
> I won’t spoil it for you :)
It was *fantastic*. I have to admit, Jack Dee is quite good as the
chairman - and I didn't think he would be.
Jim
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On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:47:14 +0000, Invisible wrote:
>>> You don't seem to get it, do you? I *like* MK. I don't want to leave.
>>> It's the only place in the UK I've found that isn't old and crappy.
>>
>> And at the same time, you say "I don't want to get the crap kicked out
>> of me by standing up for myself" - which to me DOESN'T sound like that
>> great of a place to live. Unless you like living in fear of having the
>> crap kicked out of you for standing up for yourself.
>
> Surely that's the some everywhere though? I mean, whether you're in
> London, Paris or Rome, upsetting people generally isn't a good idea.
And yet you let them upset YOU...No, that's NOT the same everywhere, and
several of us have attempted to explain that before. But you are so
*certain* that your perceptions of the world are the *only possible*
perceptions there could ever be that you're not willing to take a look at
the possibilities.
>> I understand that there are things you like about MK. I also
>> understand that you haven't actually seen a lot of the world, so your
>> decision- making being based on what you know is what's limiting you.
>
> I've been to a number of random cities around the country. Hell, I've
> even been to places in other countries. The nice thing about Switzerland
> is the skiing. But if it weren't for the skiing and the snow, there
> would be absolutely no reason to go there - and I would certainly never
> ever want to live there, even if it were somehow possible to ski every
> single day, all year round.
And yet there are plenty of people in Switzerland who have jobs even like
the jobs you and I have. But you've been there to ski, and that's great
- but you should expand your experience a little and not just think of
Switzerland as a place to ski, but as a place that people live (and from
what I've heard, have pretty good lives).
> Similarly, I enjoy visiting places in London such as the Natural History
> Museum and the Royal Albert Hall, but London itself is an unpleasent
> inconvenience that I have to go through to get to these places. It's
> certainly not somewhere I'd choose to hang around.
>
> And then there are places like Liverpool and Lincoln, which I also only
> visit because there's something there I want. I certainly don't hang
> around for the city itself. Brrr!
Working there != hanging around there, but I do understand what you mean
by not wanting to try to get around London on a daily basis. I've seen
the traffic there, and paying congestion charges is something I'd want to
avoid.
>>> Well, it's a case of facing facts. Who the hell needs programmers?
>>> Nobody. Who needs someone to look after their computers? Quite a lot
>>> of people...
>>
>> Nobody in MK perhaps, which is why you maybe need to broaden your
>> search parameters - and not just by fields, but by geography.
>>
>> That's my point, and one you have rather persistently not seen.
>
> Well sure, if I go live in London I'm sure there are bucket-loads of
> programming jobs. The point is that I don't *want* to ever have to live
> in London if humanly possible. What's complicated about that?
You don't have to *live* someplace to *work* there. My office is 45
miles south of me; I go there about once every two weeks or so.
> Hell, if I move to Germany, I could hypothetically go work for Native
> Instruments. (I mean, if it weren't for the fact that this is obviously
> impossible.) But then I'd have to live in Germany, which would kind of
> negate the benefits.
I know quite a few people in Germany who would see it different; and why
would it be "obviously impossible" anyways? Other than the fact that you
believe it is, so therefore it must be true?
Jim
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On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:27:31 +0100, andrel wrote:
>> Still, most of the populous of MK are employed. If everybody else
>> manages it, there seems no particular reason why I can't.
>
> AFAIK you are employed. Do work below your capacity, hate it, and are
> not prepared to change your job for fear of the unknown.
And there's nothing to say that the "most of the populous" in MK who are
employed are not in a similar boat (even some of them). Everyone hates
their job from time to time, and some people hate their jobs constantly;
Andy's not the only person in the world who hates his job and wants a new
one.
Jim
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>>> I am rather sure that you have never been to Germany so your remarks
>>> about that country are simply inappropriate.
>>
>> There's nothing wrong with Germany. I'm sure lots of people *love*
>> living there. It's just that *I* don't want to live there. I'm allowed
>> an opinion aren't I?
>
> Are you sure it is "aren't I"? Anyway, yes you are allowed an opinion,
> my problem is prejudice. This was just that, a negative opinion based on
> no facts at all.
Foreign people make me nervous. Fact. Living in Germany would mean that
I am surrounded by such people constantly. Fact. So I probably wouldn't
like Germany. Not a fact, but a reasonable supposition, I'd say.
>> Still, most of the populous of MK are employed. If everybody else
>> manages it, there seems no particular reason why I can't.
>
> AFAIK you are employed. Do work below your capacity, hate it, and are
> not prepared to change your job for fear of the unknown.
Who says I'm not prepaid to change my job?
Did you miss the part where I actually went to an interview for another
job? Would I do that if I wasn't prepaid to change?
> Put another way: normally I am prepared to accept anybody's statement on
> what they feel and think, but in this case I think you are simply scared
> to death by the idea of change, no matter what you say.
I'd say I'm more scared of the idea of *not* changing - that what I have
now is all my life is ever going to be. But you presumably aren't going
to believe me.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> I've been to a number of random cities around the country. Hell, I've
>> even been to places in other countries. The nice thing about Switzerland
>> is the skiing. But if it weren't for the skiing and the snow, there
>> would be absolutely no reason to go there - and I would certainly never
>> ever want to live there, even if it were somehow possible to ski every
>> single day, all year round.
>
> And yet there are plenty of people in Switzerland who have jobs even like
> the jobs you and I have. But you've been there to ski, and that's great
> - but you should expand your experience a little and not just think of
> Switzerland as a place to ski, but as a place that people live (and from
> what I've heard, have pretty good lives).
It depends on what you like.
I gather that there are people who actually *like* travelling. People
who pay to go on round the world cruises. Personally, I'd hate that. But
that's OK; people are different.
There are people who *want* to live in the south of France, because it's
very sunny there. Personally, I hate hot weather. It would drive me mad!
But hey, that's why I'm not moving to the south of France, right?
And I am completely confident that there are plenty of people who'd
*love* to live and work in Switzerland. (It would be kind of an empty
country otherwise...) Doesn't mean I'd like it though.
>> Well sure, if I go live in London I'm sure there are bucket-loads of
>> programming jobs. The point is that I don't *want* to ever have to live
>> in London if humanly possible. What's complicated about that?
>
> You don't have to *live* someplace to *work* there. My office is 45
> miles south of me; I go there about once every two weeks or so.
...which is about the distance I currently travel too, yes. I'd like to
*avoid* all this travelling if possible. It's expensive and it's a huge
waste of my time.
>> Hell, if I move to Germany, I could hypothetically go work for Native
>> Instruments. (I mean, if it weren't for the fact that this is obviously
>> impossible.) But then I'd have to live in Germany, which would kind of
>> negate the benefits.
>
> I know quite a few people in Germany who would see it different;
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe that's *why*
they're in Germany? ;-)
> and why would it be "obviously impossible" anyways?
Because ordinary people don't get to work in cool places like that. Only
special people. I'm not special. (Not that way, anyway...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> AFAIK you are employed. Do work below your capacity, hate it, and are
>> not prepared to change your job for fear of the unknown.
>
> Who says I'm not prepaid to change my job?
>
> Did you miss the part where I actually went to an interview for another
> job? Would I do that if I wasn't prepaid to change?
It would be awesome if I was pre-paid to change things...
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>> Did you miss the part where I actually went to an interview for another
>> job? Would I do that if I wasn't prepaid to change?
>
> It would be awesome if I was pre-paid to change things...
*facepalm*
What can I say? It's saturday night. (Or at least it is here...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 28-11-2009 21:09, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> I am rather sure that you have never been to Germany so your remarks
>>>> about that country are simply inappropriate.
>>>
>>> There's nothing wrong with Germany. I'm sure lots of people *love*
>>> living there. It's just that *I* don't want to live there. I'm
>>> allowed an opinion aren't I?
>>
>> Are you sure it is "aren't I"? Anyway, yes you are allowed an opinion,
>> my problem is prejudice. This was just that, a negative opinion based
>> on no facts at all.
>
> Foreign people make me nervous. Fact.
When you live in another country you'd be the foreigner. ;)
More seriously: why do we make you nervous and where do you draw the
line? non english speaking? Scots? people from outside MK?
> Living in Germany would mean that
> I am surrounded by such people constantly. Fact. So I probably wouldn't
> like Germany. Not a fact, but a reasonable supposition, I'd say.
>
>>> Still, most of the populous of MK are employed. If everybody else
>>> manages it, there seems no particular reason why I can't.
>>
>> AFAIK you are employed. Do work below your capacity, hate it, and are
>> not prepared to change your job for fear of the unknown.
>
> Who says I'm not prepaid to change my job?
>
> Did you miss the part where I actually went to an interview for another
> job?
yes. How many miles from your home was that?
> Would I do that if I wasn't prepaid to change?
>
>> Put another way: normally I am prepared to accept anybody's statement
>> on what they feel and think, but in this case I think you are simply
>> scared to death by the idea of change, no matter what you say.
>
> I'd say I'm more scared of the idea of *not* changing - that what I have
> now is all my life is ever going to be. But you presumably aren't going
> to believe me.
Not really, not as long as you persist in having totally unrealistic
requirement for a new job, like being able to commute from his mother's
home.
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>> Foreign people make me nervous. Fact.
>
> When you live in another country you'd be the foreigner. ;)
Hell yes. ;-)
> More seriously: why do we make you nervous and where do you draw the
> line? non english speaking? Scots? people from outside MK?
People with an accent that's difficult to understand, basically.
Communicating with people is intimidating enough already...
>> Did you miss the part where I actually went to an interview for
>> another job?
>
> yes. How many miles from your home was that?
That one just happened to be quite close by. I sent out applications to
half a dozen jobs, and it just so happens that the only people who
bothered to reply were quite near. I didn't plan it that way.
>> I'd say I'm more scared of the idea of *not* changing - that what I
>> have now is all my life is ever going to be. But you presumably aren't
>> going to believe me.
>
> Not really, not as long as you persist in having totally unrealistic
> requirement for a new job, like being able to commute from his mother's
> home.
Right. Because having a job near to where I live is *obviously* a
"totally unrealistic requirement". WTF?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 29-11-2009 11:53, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Foreign people make me nervous. Fact.
>>
>> When you live in another country you'd be the foreigner. ;)
>
> Hell yes. ;-)
>
>> More seriously: why do we make you nervous and where do you draw the
>> line? non english speaking? Scots? people from outside MK?
>
> People with an accent that's difficult to understand, basically.
> Communicating with people is intimidating enough already...
So that even excludes living in Whales, Ireland, Scotland Australia, NZ
and the US and pretty much everywhere else where they speak English.
Actually people in some countries on mainland Europe (Denmark, Germany,
the Netherlands...) might be much easier to understand for you than e.g.
a Scot. At least they are for me ;)
Let me also tell you this: an accent is the least of your (=anyone's)
problems in communication. Much more important is if they are friendly
and prepared to take you seriously and listen to what you say. There is
no point in 'communicating' with someone that you understand every word
of, when the sequence of those words implies that he doesn't give a ****
what your opinion is.
>>> I'd say I'm more scared of the idea of *not* changing - that what I
>>> have now is all my life is ever going to be. But you presumably
>>> aren't going to believe me.
>>
>> Not really, not as long as you persist in having totally unrealistic
>> requirement for a new job, like being able to commute from his
>> mother's home.
>
> Right. Because having a job near to where I live is *obviously* a
> "totally unrealistic requirement". WTF?
What is unrealistic is assuming you will find a satisfying job within
that area. Most people are prepared to move if they can get a good job
that is beyond commuting distance. They only common exception are people
with spouses that also work, then you have to find a place where both
can have a job.
As far as we know you don't have a girlfriend and the only reason to
stay where you live would be that you definitely don't want to leave
your mother. Not sure if that is the case. Money is not an acceptable
excuse because most jobs that you are qualified for will pay enough to
rent a small place for yourself. Probably not your dream home yet, so
pick a place where you can have a career. And don't wait too long.
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>> Right. Because having a job near to where I live is *obviously* a
>> "totally unrealistic requirement". WTF?
>
> What is unrealistic is assuming you will find a satisfying job within
> that area.
I'm not sure why you think that.
If I wanted to get a job where I get paid to write stuff in Haskell,
that would be an unrealistic aim. If I wanted to work for Nokia, that
would be an unrealistic aim. If I wanted to earn £25,000 a year, that
would be an unrealistic aim. But I don't see why getting a job somewhere
near to where I live would be an unrealistic aim.
> Most people are prepared to move if they can get a good job
> that is beyond commuting distance.
I don't know of anybody who moved just to get a job. (With the exception
of my sister.) Admittedly I don't know a huge number of people, but both
my parents have had lots and lots of jobs, and have never left MK. (I'm
guessing moving house when you have small children is not especially
easy...) My stepbrother's parents - never left MK. Hell, my mate Jayne
lives in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere and she's never moved
house to get a job. (Then again, she commutes crazy distances.) The
*only* person I know of who's moved house to find a job is my sister.
> As far as we know you don't have a girlfriend and the only reason to
> stay where you live would be that you definitely don't want to leave
> your mother. Not sure if that is the case.
I'd actually *like* to leave my mother. She drives me crazy. It's the
city of MK that I enjoy and don't particularly want to leave.
> so
> pick a place where you can have a career. And don't wait too long.
Heh. One more thing to add to the list of problems I'm running out of
time to solve. :-/
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 29-11-2009 13:49, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Right. Because having a job near to where I live is *obviously* a
>>> "totally unrealistic requirement". WTF?
>>
>> What is unrealistic is assuming you will find a satisfying job within
>> that area.
>
> I'm not sure why you think that.
The important word in that sentence was 'satisfying' (see also below).
> If I wanted to get a job where I get paid to write stuff in Haskell,
> that would be an unrealistic aim. If I wanted to work for Nokia, that
> would be an unrealistic aim. If I wanted to earn £25,000 a year, that
> would be an unrealistic aim.
I disagree with that last one (unless it is after tax). It is in the
ballpark of what I could offer you (if we get the project granted and
the other people involved agree to hire you). Which means that a job in
a similar place would pay the same sort of money. Yet be aware that I
might take that chance, because I think I know a bit about you and that
your CV does not reflect your possibilities, others might prefer to hire
somebody younger and/or with better qualifications on paper.
> But I don't see why getting a job somewhere
> near to where I live would be an unrealistic aim.
>
>> Most people are prepared to move if they can get a good job that is
>> beyond commuting distance.
>
> I don't know of anybody who moved just to get a job. (With the exception
> of my sister.) Admittedly I don't know a huge number of people, but both
> my parents have had lots and lots of jobs, and have never left MK. (I'm
> guessing moving house when you have small children is not especially
> easy...) My stepbrother's parents - never left MK. Hell, my mate Jayne
> lives in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere and she's never moved
> house to get a job. (Then again, she commutes crazy distances.) The
> *only* person I know of who's moved house to find a job is my sister.
It all depends on the sort of job. If you are looking for the kind of
job that is needed in quantities of about 10 per 1000 people, you can
find a job nearby. A sysop, I'm guessing, is about 1 in 10000, so that
is reachable, but that is not really the sort of job you are looking
for. The sort of job that you are looking for is less than 1 in 100000
and mostly in bigger companies and universities. Hence: I don't think
you are going to find that job in MK, even if there are positions there
they will be filled and when they become vacant you won't be on top of
the list.
In the end it is your choice, stay in MK and end in this job or as a
'sysop' that spends it's time solving other peoples stupid problems, or
decide that a good job is more important and be prepared to move, or
wait for that one in a million chance.
>> As far as we know you don't have a girlfriend and the only reason to
>> stay where you live would be that you definitely don't want to leave
>> your mother. Not sure if that is the case.
>
> I'd actually *like* to leave my mother. She drives me crazy. It's the
> city of MK that I enjoy and don't particularly want to leave.
Think of it this way: if you have to move you might not want to leave
that place either after a few months or years.
>> so pick a place where you can have a career. And don't wait too long.
>
> Heh. One more thing to add to the list of problems I'm running out of
> time to solve. :-/
I assumed you were aware of that. You are stuck in a position that does
not add any more to your experience. If you stay there your training
will be perceived as outdated and extending your work experience there
will not add anything to your CV. HR managers tend to prefer people that
take initiatives and hop jobs. They are wrong of course, but that won't
help you.
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:41:12 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:53:33 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Yay! We listened to Ep1, and I was wondering when we were finally
>>> going to get an episode of MC. Will grab it (should have shown up on
>>> uknova by now?).
>>>
>>> Jim
>> I won’t spoil it for you :)
>
> It was *fantastic*. I have to admit, Jack Dee is quite good as the
> chairman - and I didn't think he would be.
>
Yes I like him now. He sounds as he has the hump ;)
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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andrel wrote:
> On 29-11-2009 13:49, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> If I wanted to get a job where I get paid to write stuff in Haskell,
>> that would be an unrealistic aim. If I wanted to work for Nokia, that
>> would be an unrealistic aim. If I wanted to earn £25,000 a year, that
>> would be an unrealistic aim.
>
> I disagree with that last one (unless it is after tax). It is in the
> ballpark of what I could offer you (if we get the project granted and
> the other people involved agree to hire you). Which means that a job in
> a similar place would pay the same sort of money. Yet be aware that I
> might take that chance, because I think I know a bit about you and that
> your CV does not reflect your possibilities, others might prefer to hire
> somebody younger and/or with better qualifications on paper.
>
Now there is an offer that does not come along very often, Andrew.
The Netherlands (note that I do not say Holland ;)) is a great place to
work and live. I found the people friendly, helpful and straightforward.
I don’t think that there would be a problem with the language as I did
not meet anyone who could not speak a little English (and French or
German), most of the ones I met were fluent in English.
I would have jumped at the chance when I was your age and unattached.
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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Invisible wrote:
> Well sure, if I go live in London I'm sure there are bucket-loads of
> programming jobs.
I used to feel the same way about the east-coast cities I grew up near.
California cities (and probably other west-coast cities) are rather
different, surprisingly enough.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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andrel wrote:
> Same for France (though they have the added problem
> of no speaking English)
I spent three or four weeks in France, at least two of which were in Paris
itself. There was only one person I met who refused to speak english, and
since he was behind a post office desk with my unstamped post cards on the
table in front of him, I have to assume he was failing to understand me
intentionally.
China, now... I've never seen such a place for people not knowing English. :-)
> Totally aside: is there a nice psychiatric term for your condition. It
> clearly is some kind of phobia, but perhaps it is so rare that it does
> not have a name. Anyone knows?
Parochialism?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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andrel wrote:
> D*mn is there a way to phrase this in an unambiguous way?
"Afraid of meeting foreigners, not afraid of being a foreigner." :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> People with an accent that's difficult to understand, basically.
Move to a country that's teeming with people with bad accents, and everyone
will accommodate you. Move to someplace where everyone speaks the same
foreign language and I'm not so sure.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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andrel wrote:
> Think of it this way: if you have to move you might not want to leave
> that place either after a few months or years.
I grew up in an area where about 80% of the population never leaves the city
they were born in. And by "never leaves" I don't mean "lives somewhere else"
but literally "never leaves". They never go more than about 100 miles from
where they live.
Some people get out and go far away. But I know many people who grew up, got
married, and moved to live so close they were still in the same central
office as their parents' house.
And yes, it is quite possible to move away from a place like that and like a
different place. But not for everyone.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> by not wanting to try to get around London on a daily basis.
The actual nice thing about cities is they tend to be very easy to get
around. I've never vacationed in a city that I've taken an automobile. The
paris and london subways (as well as a few in the USA) are really all you
need, if you're willing to walk two or three blocks or hop an occasional
taxi cab to go too far towards the edge.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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Darren New wrote:
> I grew up in an area where about 80% of the population never leaves the
> city they were born in. And by "never leaves" I don't mean "lives
> somewhere else" but literally "never leaves". They never go more than
> about 100 miles from where they live.
I note with some amusement that in my country, "100 miles" is almost
from one coast to the other. Almost. ;-)
Still, the USA is much, much bigger. Hell, even Switzerland is bigger
than the UK!
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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> The actual nice thing about cities is they tend to be very easy to get
> around. I've never vacationed in a city that I've taken an automobile.
> The paris and london subways (as well as a few in the USA) are really
> all you need, if you're willing to walk two or three blocks or hop an
> occasional taxi cab to go too far towards the edge.
I would suggest that you'd be insane to try to travel around central
London by car. It's not that public transport is superb - it isn't -
it's more that the roads are an insane nightmare. (Presumably because
the road network was never really designed, it just happened. Oh, and
the vast traffic volume.)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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>> I don't know of anybody who moved just to get a job.
>
> It all depends on the sort of job. If you are looking for the kind of
> job that is needed in quantities of about 10 per 1000 people, you can
> find a job nearby. A sysop, I'm guessing, is about 1 in 10000, so that
> is reachable, but that is not really the sort of job you are looking
> for. The sort of job that you are looking for is less than 1 in 100000
> and mostly in bigger companies and universities. Hence: I don't think
> you are going to find that job in MK.
So it seems we're agreed on one thing: I need to look for a different
type of job.
(I guess really it was silly to think I could be a programmer in the
first place; the most popular programming language in the world is C,
the one language I'm very bad at.)
>> I'd actually *like* to leave my mother. She drives me crazy. It's the
>> city of MK that I enjoy and don't particularly want to leave.
>
> Think of it this way: if you have to move you might not want to leave
> that place either after a few months or years.
It's possible. But I've yet to see a city besides MK that isn't stricken
with a tangled road network that can't handle the traffic volume, and
buildings that are old and crumbling. Maybe there is such a place, but I
haven't found it yet.
>> Heh. One more thing to add to the list of problems I'm running out of
>> time to solve. :-/
>
> I assumed you were aware of that.
Well, yeah, it's not exactly news that I need a new job.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I would suggest that you'd be insane to try to travel around central
> London by car. It's not that public transport is superb - it isn't -
The subway takes you where you need to go. I've been all over london.
> it's more that the roads are an insane nightmare.
This is true in most cities that were laid out before the invention of
automobiles, including most east-coast USA cities. Except we generally have
crappy public transit too, compared to europe.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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On 29-11-2009 17:07, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> D*mn is there a way to phrase this in an unambiguous way?
>
> "Afraid of meeting foreigners, not afraid of being a foreigner." :-)
>
You didn't think of mirrors, did you?
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I note with some amusement that in my country, "100 miles" is almost
> from one coast to the other. Almost. ;-)
>
LOL
I note with some amusement that in my country, "50 miles" *is* from one
coast to the other. :P
--
Best Regards,
Stephen
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On 29-11-2009 17:05, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> Same for France (though they have the added problem of no speaking
>> English)
>
> I spent three or four weeks in France, at least two of which were in
> Paris itself. There was only one person I met who refused to speak
> english, and since he was behind a post office desk with my unstamped
> post cards on the table in front of him, I have to assume he was failing
> to understand me intentionally.
The French that I know have an English accent that is very hard to
understand. That may be because they tend to be older and the accent of
the generation of my mother here in the Netherlands was also on the edge
on comprehensibility (or slightly over).
How is the accent among young French persons nowadays? Anyone knows?
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Stephen wrote:
> I note with some amusement that in my country, "50 miles" *is* from one
> coast to the other. :P
In Europe, 100 miles is a long distance. In the USA, 100 years is a long
time. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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andrel wrote:
> The French that I know have an English accent that is very hard to
> understand.
There is that, yes. French accents seem to hang around almost as much as
chinese accents.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:47:45 +0100, andrel <a_l### [at] hotmail com>
wrote:
>
> How is the accent among young French persons nowadays? Anyone knows?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taJw8mM3Og0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE9xrel-voI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7IvWopo0Mw
--
FE
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>> I would suggest that you'd be insane to try to travel around central
>> London by car. It's not that public transport is superb - it isn't -
>
> The subway takes you where you need to go. I've been all over london.
Tried leaving the West End on a Saturday night just after all the shows
finish? Let's just say the trainsport system could do with about 10x the
capacity. ;-) [Although, obviously, this is infeasible.]
>> it's more that the roads are an insane nightmare.
>
> This is true in most cities that were laid out before the invention of
> automobiles.
Which isn't terribly surprising, really.
One of the things I like about MK is that it has a road network that was
*designed*, rather than having to try to fit a road network into a city
which already exists and wasn't laid out with mass transport in mind.
(Having said that, the people in charge of the city now are apparently
extremely anti-car, and are doing their absolute best to ruin the city's
great transport network to force everybody onto the busses that don't
exist...)
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Invisible wrote:
>>> I would suggest that you'd be insane to try to travel around central
>>> London by car. It's not that public transport is superb - it isn't -
>>
>> The subway takes you where you need to go. I've been all over london.
>
> Tried leaving the West End on a Saturday night just after all the shows
> finish?
Well, sure. But that's going to be congested regardless of your mode of
transport. Heck, I've been to places that when the show let out, it was too
crowded to *walk* for 15 minutes or more.
> One of the things I like about MK is that it has a road network that was
> *designed*, rather than having to try to fit a road network into a city
> which already exists and wasn't laid out with mass transport in mind.
Yep. Most of the west coast of the USA is like that. Especially where you
have mountains, so it's infeasible to have lots of little back roads running
over canyons.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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>>>> I would suggest that you'd be insane to try to travel around central
>>>> London by car. It's not that public transport is superb - it isn't -
>>>
>>> The subway takes you where you need to go. I've been all over london.
>>
>> Tried leaving the West End on a Saturday night just after all the
>> shows finish?
>
> Well, sure. But that's going to be congested regardless of your mode of
> transport. Heck, I've been to places that when the show let out, it was
> too crowded to *walk* for 15 minutes or more.
Every year, MK holds a public demonstration of how awesome our road
network is. On the Saturday after the 5th of November, there's a huge
public firework display (with free entraince - not that you can really
stop people watching something that takes up the entire sky...) A
singificant fraction of the entire populus of the city is concentrated
at a single point in space. When the last firework explodes, the entire
assemblage all try to leave simultanously.
Once you get more than a quarter of a mile from the car park, you'd
never know anything had happened. The traffic disperces *that* efficiently.
(Of course, it'll take you 20 minutes to get your car out of the car
park. And it'll take 30 minutes for you plus a few thousand other people
to shuffle across the three *tiny* bridges connecting Campbell Park to
the rest of the city...)
In London, when it's busy, it's busy *everywhere*, and no matter where
you go, no matter which route you take, it's *all* gridlocked.
Admittedly London is much bigger and far more populated than MK, not
even so...
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Invisible wrote:
> In London, when it's busy, it's busy *everywhere*, and no matter where
> you go, no matter which route you take, it's *all* gridlocked.
While I've occasionally seen congested subways, I must admit I've never seen
a gridlocked subway.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
much longer being almost empty than almost full.
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>> I note with some amusement that in my country, "50 miles" *is* from
>> one coast to the other. :P
>
> In Europe, 100 miles is a long distance. In the USA, 100 years is a long
> time. :-)
In geological time, 1,000,000 years is nothing. In technological time,
1,000 days is a long time. In processor time, 1,000 ms is several Ice Ages.
(Excuse me - interglacial periods...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 08:09:07 -0800, Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> People with an accent that's difficult to understand, basically.
>
> Move to a country that's teeming with people with bad accents, and
> everyone will accommodate you. Move to someplace where everyone speaks
> the same foreign language and I'm not so sure.
That's very true in most cases - especially if one makes an effort to try
to speak in the native language (even a poor attempt is generally well-
received, certainly better than none at all).
And there's nothing that will improve your ability to hear through an
accent than living someplace where people talk with an accent you find
hard to understand - or even just working with people with a heavy
accent. I find, for example, that after a few months of weekly
conference calls with developers in India, I can usually understand even
through the thickest Indian accent now.
Jim
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:03:03 +0100, andrel wrote:
> So that even excludes living in Whales
Only if your name is Jonah. ;-)
Jim
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:49:37 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> If I wanted to get a job where I get paid to write stuff in Haskell,
> that would be an unrealistic aim.
Wrong. If you wanted to get a job where you are paid to write stuff in
Haskell in an area where there are no such jobs, *that* would be
unrealistic.
Fact: People get paid to write programs in Haskell.
Therefore, saying it's unrealistic for you to get one of those jobs is
false because you start from a false premise.
> If I wanted to work for Nokia, that
> would be an unrealistic aim.
Nonsense. Nokia has jobs that run the entire range of skillsets.
> If I wanted to earn £25,000 a year, that
> would be an unrealistic aim.
Total bollocks. If you wanted to earn £25,000 for sitting on your arse
and doing absolutely nothing, *that* would be an unrealistic aim. It
*might* be unrealistic to look for jobs in your area that pay that well,
too. But finding a job that pays that outside of MK? Yeah, you could do
that, but you're not willing to look outside the immediate area.
> But I don't see why getting a job somewhere
> near to where I live would be an unrealistic aim.
Is there 100% employment where you live? I'd bet not - so that being the
case, sure, it's perhaps somewhat unrealistic to think there are more
jobs than employees in your immediate area. The fact that you've not
found anything in the immediate area would seem to belie that fact, in
fact - and so without expanding your search to a broader area and broader
selection criteria would be the logical next step.
Jim
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:49:37 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I don't know of anybody who moved just to get a job.
I did. I moved from Minneapolis to Salt Lake City to start a new job. I
interviewed for the job before moving (I happened to be in town for a
conference).
When we move to the UK, I'll be moving partially for a job there as well
- that's pretty much all lined up now, just a question of "when". So
that'll be twice in my life that I'll have done that.
Jim
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 08:16:08 -0800, Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> by not wanting to try to get around London on a daily basis.
>
> The actual nice thing about cities is they tend to be very easy to get
> around. I've never vacationed in a city that I've taken an automobile.
> The paris and london subways (as well as a few in the USA) are really
> all you need, if you're willing to walk two or three blocks or hop an
> occasional taxi cab to go too far towards the edge.
I have found that on places I've traveled to as well - NYC, London,
Boston, San Francisco, Barcelona - all have pretty good public transit
systems, and as a tourist there (or being there for work), I've found
that I could get around fine without a car for the most part.
But particularly with London, I don't know that I'd want to depend on the
public transit system for my employment - strikes seem to happen fairly
often (in particular), enough so that I might be concerned (though I know
most employers will make allowances for that).
Jim
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On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:19:02 +0000, Invisible wrote:
> One of the things I like about MK is that it has a road network that was
> *designed*, rather than having to try to fit a road network into a city
> which already exists and wasn't laid out with mass transport in mind.
You'd like Salt Lake City, then. :-)
The streets are mostly laid out on a grid. If you get an address, it's
something like "220 West 300 South", which would be about 2.25 blocks
west of Main Street on the street called "300 South".
Once you get used to it, finding things is really easy here. Until you
hit city boundaries, that is - then the street numbers can change.
Jim
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On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:15:29 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> And yet there are plenty of people in Switzerland who have jobs even
>> like the jobs you and I have. But you've been there to ski, and that's
>> great - but you should expand your experience a little and not just
>> think of Switzerland as a place to ski, but as a place that people live
>> (and from what I've heard, have pretty good lives).
>
> It depends on what you like.
>
> I gather that there are people who actually *like* travelling. People
> who pay to go on round the world cruises. Personally, I'd hate that. But
> that's OK; people are different.
Working someplace isn't the same as vacationing there. But you know
that. And yes, people are different.
I'm trying to point out (and apparently reaching "epic fail" with it)
that you're forming opinions on places based on, well, nothing. You
think you would hate living in Zurich or Geneva based on no actual
experience at having been there at all. You make assumptions that the
people there would treat you as bad or worse than you're treated now, but
you have zero empirical evidence to suggest that.
> There are people who *want* to live in the south of France, because it's
> very sunny there. Personally, I hate hot weather. It would drive me mad!
> But hey, that's why I'm not moving to the south of France, right?
"Sunny" is different from "hot". OK, you don't like warm weather; I
don't particularly like it either. Maybe you'd like Scotland? Or
Norway? It's not as warm there, in fact can get quite chilly at times of
the year. Hell, you'd probably like Minnesota if you like cold,
especially the northern parts. Or Canada - you could probably even move
to Canada with a minimum of fuss.
> And I am completely confident that there are plenty of people who'd
> *love* to live and work in Switzerland. (It would be kind of an empty
> country otherwise...) Doesn't mean I'd like it though.
But as I said you don't seem to have any empirical evidence that says you
wouldn't like it either.
>>> Well sure, if I go live in London I'm sure there are bucket-loads of
>>> programming jobs. The point is that I don't *want* to ever have to
>>> live in London if humanly possible. What's complicated about that?
>>
>> You don't have to *live* someplace to *work* there. My office is 45
>> miles south of me; I go there about once every two weeks or so.
>
> ...which is about the distance I currently travel too, yes. I'd like to
> *avoid* all this travelling if possible. It's expensive and it's a huge
> waste of my time.
So then if you can't find something closer, then you move somewhere
that's closer to where you want to work.
When I first moved to Salt Lake City, I lived close to the office. Then
my office moved to the other side of town. I changed jobs and moved
closer to the office, and then changed jobs to one that has an office 45
miles from me. I'm not moving again, but it's OK because I get to work
from home most of the time now.
So if you want to live near where you work, there are two options: Find
a job closer to home, or find a home closer to the job. If you're
looking for a new job, then you have the freedom to look anywhere and
move near the job. Which means you can find something you'll actually
*like* doing without the constraints of it being "near home" because
"home" can be moved.
You're still young (no matter what you think) and unattached. It's the
*perfect* time to look for something that really engages your abilities
and skills and passion and not care particularly *where* it is.
>>> Hell, if I move to Germany, I could hypothetically go work for Native
>>> Instruments. (I mean, if it weren't for the fact that this is
>>> obviously impossible.) But then I'd have to live in Germany, which
>>> would kind of negate the benefits.
>>
>> I know quite a few people in Germany who would see it different;
>
> I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe that's *why*
> they're in Germany? ;-)
Actually, most of them are in Germany because that's where they live and
they are doing something there that makes them happy. I also know
someone who grew up in the Netherlands who works in New Zealand, someone
who grew up in New Zealand who works in New York, and my younger brother
grew up in Minneapolis and now lives and works in Osaka, Japan. I've
another friend who grew up in Alabama (if I remember correctly) who lives
and works in Germany. Shall I continue? Coworkers who grew up in India
who live and work in Utah; another who is from Australia who lives and
works in Utah.
>> and why would it be "obviously impossible" anyways?
>
> Because ordinary people don't get to work in cool places like that. Only
> special people. I'm not special. (Not that way, anyway...)
Bullshit. The only people who don't get to work there are those who are
(a) unqualified, or (b) don't bother to apply because they don't think
they stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting the job so they don't
even try.
TRY, DAMMIT!
Jim
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:07:26 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:41:12 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:53:33 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yay! We listened to Ep1, and I was wondering when we were finally
>>>> going to get an episode of MC. Will grab it (should have shown up on
>>>> uknova by now?).
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>> I won’t spoil it for you :)
>>
>> It was *fantastic*. I have to admit, Jack Dee is quite good as the
>> chairman - and I didn't think he would be.
>>
>>
> Yes I like him now. He sounds as he has the hump ;)
He does - though I do have to admit that Rob Broyden is making me wish
Jeremy Hardy was back - his rendition of "Don't Stop Me Now" last week
was *awful*. Then again, nothing's as bad as Jeremy trying to sing, so
perhaps I should consider myself lucky that Jeremy wasn't there. ;-)
Jim
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>> If I wanted to get a job where I get paid to write stuff in Haskell,
>> that would be an unrealistic aim.
>
> Wrong. If you wanted to get a job where you are paid to write stuff in
> Haskell in an area where there are no such jobs, *that* would be
> unrealistic.
>
> Fact: People get paid to write programs in Haskell.
Yes. In the entire world, there are approximately 50 of them, I would
estimate.
>> If I wanted to work for Nokia, that would be an unrealistic aim.
>
> Nonsense. Nokia has jobs that run the entire range of skillsets.
OK, so I could probably get a job as a receptionist for Nokia. I guess I
should have specified more clearly...
>> If I wanted to earn £25,000 a year, that would be an unrealistic aim.
>
> Total bollocks. If you wanted to earn £25,000 for sitting on your arse
> and doing absolutely nothing, *that* would be an unrealistic aim. It
> *might* be unrealistic to look for jobs in your area that pay that well,
> too. But finding a job that pays that outside of MK? Yeah, you could do
> that, but you're not willing to look outside the immediate area.
I would think my level of skill and experience would be a far bigger
problem. It's not exactly like I live in some small village in the
middle of nowhere...
>> But I don't see why getting a job somewhere
>> near to where I live would be an unrealistic aim.
>
> Is there 100% employment where you live?
Is there 100% employment anywhere in the entire country? (Or indeed, in
*any* country, anywhere in the world?) Of course not.
> so that being the
> case, sure, it's perhaps somewhat unrealistic to think there are more
> jobs than employees in your immediate area.
Of course, because if an area doesn't have 100% employment, then it is
impossible to get a job. Oh, wait... so how come people all over the
world do exactly this every single day?
> The fact that you've not
> found anything in the immediate area would seem to belie that fact, in
> fact - and so without expanding your search to a broader area and broader
> selection criteria would be the logical next step.
Or rather, "I'm looking for the wrong kind of job". Clearly there aren't
any programming jobs around here, so I should look for something else.
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>> It depends on what you like.
>>
>> I gather that there are people who actually *like* travelling. People
>> who pay to go on round the world cruises. Personally, I'd hate that. But
>> that's OK; people are different.
>
> Working someplace isn't the same as vacationing there. But you know
> that. And yes, people are different.
>
> I'm trying to point out (and apparently reaching "epic fail" with it)
> that you're forming opinions on places based on, well, nothing. You
> think you would hate living in Zurich or Geneva based on no actual
> experience at having been there at all.
Of course. Because I've never been to Geneva. Oh, wait - actually yes,
yes I have. :-P
> You make assumptions that the
> people there would treat you as bad or worse than you're treated now, but
> you have zero empirical evidence to suggest that.
No, it's more that I find foreigners intimidating. That being the case,
it's not a good idea to deliberately surround myself with them.
>> There are people who *want* to live in the south of France, because it's
>> very sunny there. Personally, I hate hot weather. It would drive me mad!
>> But hey, that's why I'm not moving to the south of France, right?
>
> "Sunny" is different from "hot". OK, you don't like warm weather; I
> don't particularly like it either. Maybe you'd like Scotland?
I imagine that would be far too cold. But yeah, I get your point.
>> And I am completely confident that there are plenty of people who'd
>> *love* to live and work in Switzerland. (It would be kind of an empty
>> country otherwise...) Doesn't mean I'd like it though.
>
> But as I said you don't seem to have any empirical evidence that says you
> wouldn't like it either.
Apart from having spent several weeks in Switzerland? And that doesn't
count because...?
I mean, it's nice to go play with the snow and everything, but I'm
always very relieved to get back home again afterwards. I wouldn't want
to never return home ever again.
> So if you want to live near where you work, there are two options: Find
> a job closer to home, or find a home closer to the job.
Agreed.
> If you're
> looking for a new job, then you have the freedom to look anywhere and
> move near the job. Which means you can find something you'll actually
> *like* doing without the constraints of it being "near home" because
> "home" can be moved.
>
> You're still young (no matter what you think) and unattached. It's the
> *perfect* time to look for something that really engages your abilities
> and skills and passion and not care particularly *where* it is.
I don't think it's feasible for me to get an enjoyable job. Let's face
it, nobody is going to pay me to sit around geeking out over monadic
combinator libraries. They're going to pay me to get a job done, no
matter how boring it turns out to be.
One of the careers advisors I spoke to suggested that with my skill set
I should maybe look at financial modelling. I looked around, and did
find a job. First, the job was based in London. Second, they demand a
PhD. Not negotiatable. I guess if I had really amazing grades from my
degree I could argue that they should at least look at me... but I don't.
Let's be real here. You want to be a programmer? Why should I hire you?
There are other programmers out there. Programmers who can do C and C++.
Programmers who understand cache coherence and can cope with
little-endian data (mis)representation. Programmers who won't get bored
and do something unrelated every five minutes.
You wanna be a technical writer? Other people can write. And most of
them write a damned site better than you. They can express themselves
clearly, they can FREAKING SPELL, and they can type faster than you. Why
should we hire you?
You wanna do something with maths? Other people have a real, formal
mathematical education. With certificates and grades to prove it. Who
are you trying to kid?
You want to design digital logic? We have engineering graduates who have
been *actually doing* this stuff for, like, the last 8 years. Why should
be hire some guy who's read about it in a book when we have a queue of
people who have done it for real?
I need to be realistic about what work it is actually possible for me to
get. I'm never going to be a software architect or a document writer.
These jobs are few and far between, and there are plenty of people far
more qualified than I am already competing for them. I need to look at
jobs I might actually be able to get - and I doubt location makes a huge
difference to that.
> Actually, most of them are in Germany because that's where they live and
> they are doing something there that makes them happy. I also know
> someone who grew up in the Netherlands who works in New Zealand, someone
> who grew up in New Zealand who works in New York, and my younger brother
> grew up in Minneapolis and now lives and works in Osaka, Japan. I've
> another friend who grew up in Alabama (if I remember correctly) who lives
> and works in Germany. Shall I continue? Coworkers who grew up in India
> who live and work in Utah; another who is from Australia who lives and
> works in Utah.
Like I said, some people *like* to travel. I don't.
>>> and why would it be "obviously impossible" anyways?
>> Because ordinary people don't get to work in cool places like that. Only
>> special people. I'm not special. (Not that way, anyway...)
>
> Bullshit. The only people who don't get to work there are those who are
> (a) unqualified, or (b) don't bother to apply because they don't think
> they stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting the job so they don't
> even try.
>
> TRY, DAMMIT!
I've tried applying to Wolfram. (They specifically requested
applicants.) I applied to some bluechip on the M25. I've applied for
just about every Haskell-related job going in the UK. Want to take a
guess how many of these people even bothered to reply?
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> No, it's more that I find foreigners intimidating. That being the case,
> it's not a good idea to deliberately surround myself with them.
As I've said before, IME the variation of people within a particular country
is far greater than the variation between countries. IOW there will be
plently of like-minded people you will get on fine with in *any* country,
you're just as likely to find intimidating people in the UK as you are
abroad. There are a lot of non-UK people here in this forum, do you find
them all intimidating?
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>> No, it's more that I find foreigners intimidating. That being the
>> case, it's not a good idea to deliberately surround myself with them.
>
> As I've said before, IME the variation of people within a particular
> country is far greater than the variation between countries. IOW there
> will be plently of like-minded people you will get on fine with in *any*
> country, you're just as likely to find intimidating people in the UK as
> you are abroad.
Heh. I go to Switzerland - to the *tourist* parts of Switzerland - and
in all the years I've been going I've met *one* other person from
England. (Not counting the people we brought with us.) Granted, I think
there were quite a few people from other European countries (although
it's kinda hard to tell). Just not from England.
But then, if you want to travel from France to Germany, you get on a
road and start driving. Leaving England is a little more complex...
> There are a lot of non-UK people here in this forum, do
> you find them all intimidating?
I don't have to understand their accents. ;-)
(Although... I think Warp is fairly intimidating, yes.)
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> Heh. I go to Switzerland - to the *tourist* parts of Switzerland - and in
> all the years I've been going I've met *one* other person from England.
I think you misunderstood what I meant. I meant that in *every* country
there are all sorts of people, intimidating, friendly, evil, fun, Haskell
lovers, bikers etc. IME the UK doesn't have massively lower numbers of
intimidating people compared to the rest of the world. Where would you feel
more intimidated, a Haskell meet in San Francisco or a Harley Davidson pub
meet in the UK?
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>> Heh. I go to Switzerland - to the *tourist* parts of Switzerland - and
>> in all the years I've been going I've met *one* other person from
>> England.
>
> I think you misunderstood what I meant. I meant that in *every* country
> there are all sorts of people, intimidating, friendly, evil, fun,
> Haskell lovers, bikers etc. IME the UK doesn't have massively lower
> numbers of intimidating people compared to the rest of the world.
Like I said, I think I just find foreign accents intimidating.
Hell, I visited Liverpool and it took me a while to figure out why I
couldn't understand anybody... I guess I'm not very bright.
> Where
> would you feel more intimidated, a Haskell meet in San Francisco or a
> Harley Davidson pub meet in the UK?
Amusingly (or not?), both of those would have approximately the same
number of beards. o_O
One guy told me that Hell's Angels are "actually really friendly
people". But I don't know whether that's actually true...
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Invisible wrote:
>
> No, it's more that I find foreigners intimidating. That being the case,
> it's not a good idea to deliberately surround myself with them.
>
In all seriousness, did I intimidate you? I hope not...
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