I've got three identical laptops here - Dell D610s, all with the same 
hardware configuration (they're part of a set we used to use for classes 
on the road).

openSUSE 11.2 was released yesterday, and I figured I'd try out 11.2 
(since I'm a forum moderator, I should know something about it <g>), and 
my stepson had asked me about Win7 for his gaming needs (since he is 
starting to look at games that need DX10 and runs XP).

So I thought I'd install Win7 on one of the laptops as well.

First I tried openSUSE 11.2's GNOME liveCD.  I'm a GNOME user, so it's 
the most familiar environment for me.  Dropped the disc in, powered up, 
every piece of hardware properly detected - wireless working, sound 
working, didn't have to fuss with anything.

Then I tried the 11.2 KDE liveCD.  I generally haven't liked KDE, but 
KDE4 is relatively new and I wanted to give it a fair shake.  Nice 
environment - I actually kinda liked it.  I had a problem with getting 
the network manager to pull a default route and DNS server setting from 
my DHCP server, but the hardware was (as I expected) detected properly 
and worked just fine.

Next, I installed Windows 7 Ultimate N on the system.  On the plus side - 
the installation was FAST.  Of the three full product installs, it was 
the fastest, actually.  I think it took about the same amount of time as 
Windows 3.1 did if you took out the diskette swapping.

But it failed to detect my wireless card.  I had to actually plug into 
the wired network.  Then it downloaded updates automatically and 
installed a driver for the wireless card.  OK, it did eventually work; 
but with oS 11.2, it just worked - didn't have to download anything.

It also failed to install audio drivers.  Now the Dell D610 hasn't been 
tested with Win7, so perhaps this is to be expected.  What was unexpected 
was finding out that there are actually NO Win7 audio drivers for this 
laptop - you have to install Windows XP drivers in order to get sound 
working.

So with stock hardware in the Dell laptops, I have to say that the idea 
that Windows 7 "just works" and openSUSE 11.2 doesn't is complete pants.

Before I upgrade my real systems to 11.2, I need to check some software 
compatibility and functionality for my Wacom tablet - since I use a 
customized driver (patched with OLED support, which isn't generally 
available) and the X server driver isn't complete yet for Xorg 1.7, I may 
have to wait for that to be completed.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Then I tried the 11.2 KDE liveCD.  I generally haven't liked KDE, but 
> KDE4 is relatively new and I wanted to give it a fair shake.  Nice 
> environment - I actually kinda liked it.

yeah, I'm willing to try it too.  It's certainly the most modern GUI 
environment on Linux right now.  But surely GTK and Gnome will catch up...

> Next, I installed Windows 7 Ultimate N on the system.  On the plus side - 
> the installation was FAST.  Of the three full product installs, it was 
> the fastest, actually.

I have a feeling that lacking such full featured applications such as 
OpenOffice, Gimp, some 4 fully featured text editors, Evolution, a fully 
featured media player like Amarok, and other niceties has something to 
do with it.  But, hey!, one can have loads of fun with notepad and paint 
alone! :D

> So with stock hardware in the Dell laptops, I have to say that the idea 
> that Windows 7 "just works" and openSUSE 11.2 doesn't is complete pants.

This has been a given for many years by now.  Lucky for Microsoft that 
customers already get their new PC's with Vista SP3 fully installed and 
properly configured by OEM's...

Post a reply to this message

nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
> > Then I tried the 11.2 KDE liveCD.  I generally haven't liked KDE, but 
> > KDE4 is relatively new and I wanted to give it a fair shake.  Nice 
> > environment - I actually kinda liked it.

> yeah, I'm willing to try it too.  It's certainly the most modern GUI 
> environment on Linux right now.  But surely GTK and Gnome will catch up...

  I tried KDE4 (it's quite easy to switch between window managers by
simply logging out, selecting the other window manager in the login screen
and then logging in again), but didn't quite like it compared to KDE3.

  For one, it's not possible to set the taskbar to autohide (I really can't
understand why). For another, it's not possible to configure virtual desktop
switching to the mouse wheel (when used on the background).

  It was some time that I tried it, though. I don't know if they have fixed
those problems.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Jim Henderson schrieb:

> But it failed to detect my wireless card.  I had to actually plug into 
> the wired network.  Then it downloaded updates automatically and 
> installed a driver for the wireless card.  OK, it did eventually work; 
> but with oS 11.2, it just worked - didn't have to download anything.

So you acquired the oS 11.2 live CD as a pressed disc somewhere? Or did 
you perhaps burn it yourself from a /downloaded/ image?

Post a reply to this message

clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> Jim Henderson schrieb:
>
> > But it failed to detect my wireless card.  I had to actually plug into
> > the wired network.  Then it downloaded updates automatically and
> > installed a driver for the wireless card.  OK, it did eventually work;
> > but with oS 11.2, it just worked - didn't have to download anything.
>
> So you acquired the oS 11.2 live CD as a pressed disc somewhere? Or did
> you perhaps burn it yourself from a /downloaded/ image?

Have to say that was kinda weak and lame. ;)

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Warp wrote:

> nemesis <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote:
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> > Then I tried the 11.2 KDE liveCD.  I generally haven't liked KDE, but
>> > KDE4 is relatively new and I wanted to give it a fair shake.  Nice
>> > environment - I actually kinda liked it.
> 
>> yeah, I'm willing to try it too.  It's certainly the most modern GUI
>> environment on Linux right now.  But surely GTK and Gnome will catch
>> up...
> 
>   I tried KDE4 (it's quite easy to switch between window managers by
> simply logging out, selecting the other window manager in the login screen
> and then logging in again), but didn't quite like it compared to KDE3.
> 
>   For one, it's not possible to set the taskbar to autohide (I really
>   can't
> understand why). For another, it's not possible to configure virtual
> desktop switching to the mouse wheel (when used on the background).
> 
>   It was some time that I tried it, though. I don't know if they have
>   fixed
> those problems.
 
These were some of my exact worst problems with KDE4 too. At least the 
version that shipped with Fedora 10 really really sucked compared to the 3.x 
(3.5?) KDE that came with FC6 - which I still use at work.

The KDE4 version that came with FC11 is a bit better though, but I think it 
still has to evolve more before being at the usability level of KDE 3.5.
-- 
Stefan Viljoen

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On 11/14/09 11:51, Warp wrote:
>    It was some time that I tried it, though. I don't know if they have fixed
> those problems.

	Did you try a pre 4.2 version?

	4.2 was supposed to be the first stable one (by their own standards).

	I haven't used any of the major DE's for many years now. I do, however, 
use a whole bunch of KDE applications. My terminal emulator has always 
been Konsole. And I must say, Konsole 4.x has a fatal flaw: In some 
applications like mutt, if I set the color to be BrightColor (e.g. 
BrightYellow, etc), not only does Konsole make it bright, it makes it 
bold. Which makes it horrible to look at. The bug report has been 
sitting with them for probably over a year now, with many people 
complaining. Yet no fix. So I continue to use the 3.5 version of Konsole.



-- 
I don't suffer from insanity, i enjoy every waking moment of it.

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On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:53:33 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Then I tried the 11.2 KDE liveCD.  I generally haven't liked KDE, but
>> KDE4 is relatively new and I wanted to give it a fair shake.  Nice
>> environment - I actually kinda liked it.
> 
> yeah, I'm willing to try it too.  It's certainly the most modern GUI
> environment on Linux right now.  But surely GTK and Gnome will catch
> up...

Without a doubt - it's a game of leapfrog.  I did play with KDE4 a bit 
yesterday, and ultimately got frustrated with plasma because it doesn't 
seem to work consistently.

>> Next, I installed Windows 7 Ultimate N on the system.  On the plus side
>> - the installation was FAST.  Of the three full product installs, it
>> was the fastest, actually.
> 
> I have a feeling that lacking such full featured applications such as
> OpenOffice, Gimp, some 4 fully featured text editors, Evolution, a fully
> featured media player like Amarok, and other niceties has something to
> do with it.  But, hey!, one can have loads of fun with notepad and paint
> alone! :D

Oh, yeah, I'm sure that's a factor.  2.2 GB worth of DVD for Win7 vs. 4.3 
GB worth of DVD for openSUSE.

>> So with stock hardware in the Dell laptops, I have to say that the idea
>> that Windows 7 "just works" and openSUSE 11.2 doesn't is complete
>> pants.
> 
> This has been a given for many years by now.  Lucky for Microsoft that
> customers already get their new PC's with Vista SP3 fully installed and
> properly configured by OEM's...

Yeah, I know - and yet there are still claims that Windows "Just works" 
and Linux doesn't.

Jim

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On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:51:05 -0500, Warp wrote:

>   For one, it's not possible to set the taskbar to autohide (I really
>   can't
> understand why). 

Yeah, you can do this - you have to unlock the widgets/taskbar and click 
the cashew on the right end of the task bar.  then select "More Settings" 
and select "Auto-hide".

> For another, it's not possible to configure virtual
> desktop switching to the mouse wheel (when used on the background).

Interesting, I never thought about this use of the mouse wheel before.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:58:38 -0600, Neeum Zawan wrote:

> 	Did you try a pre 4.2 version?
> 
> 	4.2 was supposed to be the first stable one (by their own 
standards).

That's a good point, 11.2 ships with version 4.3 on it, so the suggestion 
I made as to how to enable auto-hide may not have been in an earlier 
release.

Jim

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On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:40:01 +0100, clipka wrote:

> Jim Henderson schrieb:
> 
>> But it failed to detect my wireless card.  I had to actually plug into
>> the wired network.  Then it downloaded updates automatically and
>> installed a driver for the wireless card.  OK, it did eventually work;
>> but with oS 11.2, it just worked - didn't have to download anything.
> 
> So you acquired the oS 11.2 live CD as a pressed disc somewhere? Or did
> you perhaps burn it yourself from a /downloaded/ image?

I "downloaded" it and burned it myself, but it is the official release 
version.  (My download was a copy across the network from one of the 
download servers - handy to work for the company that produces it ;-) )

My point is that the LiveCD and DVD images "just worked".

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> > For another, it's not possible to configure virtual
> > desktop switching to the mouse wheel (when used on the background).

> Interesting, I never thought about this use of the mouse wheel before.

  It's addictive once you get used to it. Guess why I didn't like KDE4.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 14:58:51 -0500, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> > For another, it's not possible to configure virtual desktop switching
>> > to the mouse wheel (when used on the background).
> 
>> Interesting, I never thought about this use of the mouse wheel before.
> 
>   It's addictive once you get used to it. Guess why I didn't like KDE4.

Because it's unfamiliar?  I have to say that the couple of days I've 
spent playing with it, I've found it looks good, but some of the 
functionality seems to work inconsistently - though part of that could be 
unfamiliarity on my part because I'm a GNOME user myself.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson schrieb:

> Yeah, I know - and yet there are still claims that Windows "Just works" 
> and Linux doesn't.

I can give (and actually did give, as you may recall :-)) an example of 
where Linux does /not/ "just work":

When I got my AMD Phenom machine, I installed Debian "Etch" 4.0r5 on it 
out-of-the-box. Everything /seemed/ to be fine, until I discovered that 
something was wrong with the system time: The clock ran double speed!

Now you would think that this is a pretty basic and non-complex 
functionality. Still Linux managed to get it wrong.

And it's not like fixing such things would be easy with Linux - at least 
that's how it appears to me: By now it "just works" in many cases, but 
when it doesn't and you don't happen to have administrative skills for 
Linux, you're perfectly screwed. With Windows, OTOH, at least for such 
basic stuff you're pretty likely to find something helpful on the 
mainboard manufacturer's website.

I think the observation of most Linux users that Linux "just works" is 
clouded by them typically having at least some basic experience in 
administering Unix machines.


To add another thought, the idea that /any/ existing operating system 
"just works" is pretty much a myth at present. I have /never ever/ seen 
anyone just learning how to use a computer who didn't at one time or the 
other have to get more experienced people fix things that got broken 
/somehow/ (or never worked in the first place).

Well, maybe Mac comes close, at least that's the impression I got from 
my first and only contact with a Mac and a user thereof.

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson schrieb:

>> So you acquired the oS 11.2 live CD as a pressed disc somewhere? Or did
>> you perhaps burn it yourself from a /downloaded/ image?
> 
> I "downloaded" it and burned it myself, but it is the official release 
> version.  (My download was a copy across the network from one of the 
> download servers - handy to work for the company that produces it ;-) )
> 
> My point is that the LiveCD and DVD images "just worked".

I gather that it is a brand new release, too. Will it "just work" with 
hardware to come in a few months' time as well? Or could that possibly 
necessitate downloading a driver update for one or two components, too?

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:19:07 +0100, clipka wrote:

> I can give (and actually did give, as you may recall ) an example of
> where Linux does /not/ "just work":

Oh, sure, I never said that one couldn't come up with a configuration 
that didn't "just work" - and I would never make that claim.  But there 
*are* people who make that claim about Windows, and that's a completely 
false claim.

It isn't about having administration experience, either - I was talking 
purely about the installation, which doesn't require any admin experience 
for either OS platform.  I was merely talking about hardware a detection 
comparison on identical hardware and the challenges I had in getting Win7 
to work on hardware that openSUSE 11.2 installed, configured, and found 
all hardware properly for.

I agree, though, that ultimately the idea that any OS "just works" out of 
the box is a myth as long as the software vendor has no control over all 
the hardware (which MacOS may have as an advantage - not all hardware, 
but certainly the hardware categories that Windows and Linux have issues 
with.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:27:18 +0100, clipka wrote:

> Jim Henderson schrieb:
> 
>>> So you acquired the oS 11.2 live CD as a pressed disc somewhere? Or
>>> did you perhaps burn it yourself from a /downloaded/ image?
>> 
>> I "downloaded" it and burned it myself, but it is the official release
>> version.  (My download was a copy across the network from one of the
>> download servers - handy to work for the company that produces it ;-) )
>> 
>> My point is that the LiveCD and DVD images "just worked".
> 
> I gather that it is a brand new release, too. 

Yes, it was released on Thursday.

> Will it "just work" with
> hardware to come in a few months' time as well? Or could that possibly
> necessitate downloading a driver update for one or two components, too?

Shall I answer this question with a "well, duh", or an "it depends on 
what new hardware is released and what compatibility there is with 
existing drivers"?  (The latter, of course, is a more wordy way of saying 
the first answer).

Jim

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On 11/15/09 16:19, clipka wrote:
> I think the observation of most Linux users that Linux "just works" is
> clouded by them typically having at least some basic experience in
> administering Unix machines.

	Same goes for Windows, which I guess you alluded to in the next 
paragraph. How far will a Windows user get if he does not know about the 
Control Panel?

-- 
Why is the person who invests all your money called a broker?

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Jim Henderson schrieb:

>> 	Did you try a pre 4.2 version?
>>
>> 	4.2 was supposed to be the first stable one (by their own 
> standards).
> 
> That's a good point, 11.2 ships with version 4.3 on it, so the suggestion 
> I made as to how to enable auto-hide may not have been in an earlier 
> release.

Speaking of KDE versions: I thought I might give KDE a try (after the 
Gnome version that comes with Debian 5.0.3 "Lenny" turned out incapable 
of providing proper XDMCP support, and looks nasty with XDM instead - 
not to mention that I'm a bit worried about running it in this hybrid 
mode), but the Debian KDE package version numbering puzzles me a bit:

- According to information on the Debian wiki, Lenny is supposed to use 
KDE 3.5.
- The "kde" main package and a few others have version number "5:48".
- Most other pagages named "kde*" bear version numbers "4:3.5.some".
- Yet others bear version numbers "4:4.1.some" (some of them are titled 
kdebase-runtime*".

Anyone have some idea how to interpret this?

Post a reply to this message

clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> I think the observation of most Linux users that Linux "just works" is 
> clouded by them typically having at least some basic experience in 
> administering Unix machines.

  I think it depends a lot on the hardware setup you have. With the right
hardware you probably can just install OpenSUSE or a similar distro and
everything will just work, right out of the box.

  However, if you have even slightly more exotic hardware (and sometimes
even some quite common hardware) you might have to struggle for hours
before you will get the system fully working.

  For example, when I first installed Suse on my PC it had a HomePNA card
as its network card, and it just wouldn't work. It wouldn't work with
Ubuntu or Debian either.

  I had to struggle for hours with that problem, searching the net for info
and trying tons of things. In the end, it was enought to add *one* line in
one configuration file, and the network card started working like a charm.
I just can't understand why the installer couldn't to that itself, as it
was rather obvious in restrospect (but 100% non-obvious if you don't know
about it). I don't know if newer versions of OpenSUSE have fixed this.

  Likewise many ATI graphics cards work poorly, if at all, out of the box
when installing a Linux distro (any distro). For example both Ubuntu and
Debian were completely unable to even start X with my old ATI card. Suse
was able to start it, but without any kind of hardware acceleration and
with a lousy 60 Hz refresh rate. It wasn't until I ran ATI's proprietary
configuration tool (which has to be downloaded separately from AMD's
website) that I got hardware-accelerated windowing at 85 Hz. (There exists
a third-party driver for ATI cards which is able to use higher refresh
rates and hardware acceleration, but for some reason it was unable to
*configure* itself appropriately. I had to run ATI's configuration utility
before it started working.)

  Linux distros sometimes also have problems with sound cards and sound
chips, even popular ones (eg. I have had severe problems with a SoundBlaster
Live, even though one would think there would be full support for such a
classic sound card out-of-the-box in any distro in existence).

  And be careful if you try to install Linux on a *secondary* partition,
while keeping Windows on the primary one. While distro installers generally
won't cause any harm, they might get confused and configure Grub incorrectly
so that neither OS will load (I think I had that kind of problem with
Ubuntu). You'll have to manually fix the Grub settings so that they will
work properly.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> - According to information on the Debian wiki, Lenny is supposed to use 
> KDE 3.5.
> - The "kde" main package and a few others have version number "5:48".
> - Most other pagages named "kde*" bear version numbers "4:3.5.some".
> - Yet others bear version numbers "4:4.1.some" (some of them are titled 
> kdebase-runtime*".

> Anyone have some idea how to interpret this?

  KDE (and most windowing systems in general) are quite flexible with
regard to their own version and the software versions which come bundled
with the windowing system. This means that if you have, eg. both KDE3 and
KDE4 installed in your system, you can eg. run KDE4 programs from KDE3 and
vice-versa. IIRC this goes so far that you can even run Gnome programs from
KDE, and probably the other way around. (I don't know if some programs
might present some incompatibilities if run from a different windowing
system than they were designed for, but I haven't sumbled on any yet.
Not that I use cross-system programs all that much, though.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
>   However, if you have even slightly more exotic hardware (and sometimes
> even some quite common hardware) you might have to struggle for hours
> before you will get the system fully working.

Even with pretty simple hardware, I usually wind up installing a new Windows 
three or four times on the first day before I get everything working the way 
I want.  Of course, I notice when something's broken, so maybe that's part 
of the explanation.  Like on this machine, some audio-based process sucked 
up a constant 10% CPU time even when the machine was idle, until I avoided 
installing the manufacturer's custom driver for something unrelated (screen? 
Keyboard? Network? Some such nonsense that came with the machine) and used 
the one off Windows Update.  I'm sure many people wouldn't have even noticed 
that the distro that came with the machine was broken.

I check the Device Manager for "didn't install" devices and see if I can 
resolve it, too, which often takes a few tries to get right.

I've used only a few different Linux's, but I have to say that Warp's advice 
to use OpenSuSE was spot on the money if you don't know what you're doing 
already.

>   And be careful if you try to install Linux on a *secondary* partition,

Oh, that's the other thing that takes a while to figure out on each new 
Windows install. :)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Warp wrote:
>   For one, it's not possible to set the taskbar to autohide (I really
>   can't understand why).

It's three clicks away here (KDE 4.3).

> For another, it's not possible to configure virtual
> desktop switching to the mouse wheel (when used on the background).

It's doing it by default for me.

Post a reply to this message

clipka wrote:
> - According to information on the Debian wiki, Lenny is supposed to use
> KDE 3.5.
> - The "kde" main package and a few others have version number "5:48".
> - Most other pagages named "kde*" bear version numbers "4:3.5.some".
> - Yet others bear version numbers "4:4.1.some" (some of them are titled
> kdebase-runtime*".
> 
> Anyone have some idea how to interpret this?

Step 1: ignore the "4:" at the beginning of KDE package versions, it's a 
Debian thing.

The thing before the colon is an "epoch". It's there so that if someone 
messes up with version numbers, or if the numbering scheme changes 
completely, they can increase the epoch to make sure the "is version X newer 
or older than Y" works properly.

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> > For another, it's not possible to configure virtual
>> > desktop switching to the mouse wheel (when used on the background).
> 
>> Interesting, I never thought about this use of the mouse wheel before.
> 
>   It's addictive once you get used to it. Guess why I didn't like KDE4.

When my mouse wheel broke, and I bought a new mouse, I configured Compiz to 
switch desktops when I move the wheel *sideways* (interesting feature of new 
mouse :P). A global shortcut too, worked no matter where the cursor was.

I didn't find how to set that up in KDE yet.

Post a reply to this message

> Next, I installed Windows 7 Ultimate N on the system.  On the plus side -
> the installation was FAST.  Of the three full product installs, it was
> the fastest, actually.  I think it took about the same amount of time as
> Windows 3.1 did if you took out the diskette swapping.
>
> But it failed to detect my wireless card.  I had to actually plug into
> the wired network.  Then it downloaded updates automatically and
> installed a driver for the wireless card.  OK, it did eventually work;
> but with oS 11.2, it just worked - didn't have to download anything.

Lucky for you, when I installed Win7 (it was also a 32bit -> 64bit OS 
upgrade for me) it turned out the wireless card I had has a *really* crappy 
website, and of course no 64bit drivers at all.  Luckily I have another 
desktop PC with a wireless card from a more reputable manufacturer (which of 
course advertised Win7 and 64bit compatibility on their website) so I simply 
swapped them over.

Post a reply to this message

clipka wrote:

 
> When I got my AMD Phenom machine, I installed Debian "Etch" 4.0r5 on it
> out-of-the-box. Everything /seemed/ to be fine, until I discovered that
> something was wrong with the system time: The clock ran double speed!

Yup, on my previous motherboard, with Fedora 6, the clock SLOWED DOWN when I 
was rendering with Pov. As the load average went up, the clock ticked slower 
and slower. If you left the machine on for a week straight of rendering in 
Pov under Linux, you'd loose about 45 minutes.

-- 
Stefan Viljoen

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:15:43 +0100, scott wrote:

>> Next, I installed Windows 7 Ultimate N on the system.  On the plus side
>> - the installation was FAST.  Of the three full product installs, it
>> was the fastest, actually.  I think it took about the same amount of
>> time as Windows 3.1 did if you took out the diskette swapping.
>>
>> But it failed to detect my wireless card.  I had to actually plug into
>> the wired network.  Then it downloaded updates automatically and
>> installed a driver for the wireless card.  OK, it did eventually work;
>> but with oS 11.2, it just worked - didn't have to download anything.
> 
> Lucky for you, when I installed Win7 (it was also a 32bit -> 64bit OS
> upgrade for me) it turned out the wireless card I had has a *really*
> crappy website, and of course no 64bit drivers at all.  Luckily I have
> another desktop PC with a wireless card from a more reputable
> manufacturer (which of course advertised Win7 and 64bit compatibility on
> their website) so I simply swapped them over.

I actually had opportunity last night to install WinXP on the same 
hardware (the third of the three laptops) for a coworker who needed it 
for some software testing he's doing.  Using the recovery CD provided by 
Dell, I still had to download the drivers for the system.  I'm sure there 
probably was a driver DVD that I wasn't given to do the installation, but 
still....the D610 is older hardware and XP is an older OS; it seems that 
regardless of whether it's a new version of Windows or an older one, it 
took more work to get it to work than 11.2 did. :-)

Jim

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