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>> - traffic lights
>
> These are not microprocessor-controlled. (This is part of the reason why
> it is impossible to "hack into" the traffic light system and turn all the
> lights green. It's not computer-controlled to start with.) More like just
> a collection of timers and electromechanical relays.
So I guess the Siemens guy I saw with his laptop connected to the traffic
light control box was just recharging it? ;-)
> I doubt the baker on the village highstreet is going to let people starve
> to death over a little computer glitch.
Yeh, I guess he can walk around and find a flour mill nearby to supply him,
and power up his ovens with a wood fire. Shouldn't take too long.
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"Stefan Viljoen" <pov### [at] polard com> wrote in message
news:4afa744c@news.povray.org...
> scott wrote:
>
> >> Hey! That means that you'd most likely have to start hunting again.
That
> >> isn't so bad, so I guess you got a point as well! :)
> >
> > Oh come on, in the first half of the 20th century there were no
> > microprocessors, yet we managed to have shops, delivery systems, we
could
> > even build planes, cars and power stations. Sure there will be mayhem
if
> > unexpectedly uP's suddenly disappeared, but it's not like we'd have to
go
> > back to hunting.
> Just a joke man. Relax.
>
> Of course what you say is true, but all those societal elements were
evolved
> TO. If today's tech was to disappear tomorrow, we'd suddenly have a
> regression to a level far below what we had in the early 20th. Until we
can
> re-establish the "outmoded" technologies and technological base (like
steam
> power) that were cutting edge in say, 1920.
Can you imagine all the sudden productivity increase we would experience? No
cell phones, no youtube, no computer games, no pov-ray, no newsgroups! With
that kind of manpower available, we'd take no time reviving those dormant
technologies. Also, don't forget that much of that is still alive in the
third world to varying degrees.
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>>> - traffic lights
>>
>> These are not microprocessor-controlled. (This is part of the reason
>> why it is impossible to "hack into" the traffic light system and turn
>> all the lights green. It's not computer-controlled to start with.)
>> More like just a collection of timers and electromechanical relays.
>
> So I guess the Siemens guy I saw with his laptop connected to the
> traffic light control box was just recharging it? ;-)
In which country was this?
The last set of traffic lights I stopped at doesn't even detect whether
there's any traffic. The lights just change every 45 seconds. Even at
2AM when there are no cars, every 45 seconds the lights change. What do
you need a computer for?
>> I doubt the baker on the village highstreet is going to let people
>> starve to death over a little computer glitch.
>
> Yeh, I guess he can walk around and find a flour mill nearby to supply
> him, and power up his ovens with a wood fire. Shouldn't take too long.
The baker himself shouldn't have any problem. The problems occur further
up the supply chain.
I guess it depends on whether you're talking about *computers* not
working, or "anything that requires electricity". The latter would be a
much bigger issue. If transport is still possible, even without
computers, companies will find a way. Face it: there's money to be made.
Companies just *love* that crap. ;-)
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somebody wrote:
> Can you imagine all the sudden productivity increase we would experience? No
> cell phones, no youtube, no computer games, no pov-ray, no newsgroups! With
> that kind of manpower available, we'd take no time reviving those dormant
> technologies. Also, don't forget that much of that is still alive in the
> third world to varying degrees.
WIN!
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This thread brings to mind the first episode of James Burke's Connections.
--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net
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Stefan Viljoen wrote:
> I disagree. My folks often say this too - just cut out the computers and
> we'll just be less comfortable. But take down -especially- the
> microprocessor and you likely loose
Yeah, OK. Granted, the folks living in cities are pretty screwed, but it's
not asteroid-hits-the-ocean kind of screwed. :-)
It's not like it's going to be a whole lot worse than, say, Katrina. Of
course, if you cover half the country, that's going to be a problem. I don't
know how big an EMP is. And you'll have trouble moving people without the
vehicles working - you'd have to bring some in from outside.
> Hey! That means that you'd most likely have to start hunting again. That
> isn't so bad, so I guess you got a point as well! :)
Yeah, basically. Like I said, people in cities will be screwed.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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clipka wrote:
> For instance, a reactor might have control rods held in place by
> solenoids; cut the power, and are driven into the core by gravity or
> loaded springs, effectively shutting the reactor down.
Ah, the old Secondary Control Rod Axe Man - the guy with the job to run in
with the axe and cut the cords holding up the secondary control rods when
the first set doesn't correctly fall on its own. :-) Hence, SCRAM a reactor.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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Invisible wrote:
> the lights green. It's not computer-controlled to start with.) More like
> just a collection of timers and electromechanical relays.
Depends where you are. Those movies with the guys watching the traffic
lights in the control rooms? That's real in NYC, for example.
> I'm fairly sure a nuclear plant would just automatically shut down. I'm
> pretty sure somebody will have thought of this.
If nothing else, I imagine they have enough batteries on site to shut the
thing down.
> Remember the Y2K bug? The one that was supposed to make planes fall from
> the skies and nuclear reactors go into meltdown?
>
> ...
>
> Nah, it wasn't so bad. ;-)
Everybody says this, but I have to wonder how bad it might have been if not
for the hype and terror and everyone fixing everything because of that. I'd
have felt the same way if I didn't see everyone in the FAA jumping up and
down and cheering when 12:00 passed without anyone crashing.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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Invisible wrote:
> Stefan Viljoen wrote:
>
>> I disagree. My folks often say this too - just cut out the computers and
>> we'll just be less comfortable. But take down -especially- the
>> microprocessor and you likely loose
>>
>> - traffic lights
>
> These are not microprocessor-controlled. (This is part of the reason why
> it is impossible to "hack into" the traffic light system and turn all
> the lights green. It's not computer-controlled to start with.) More like
> just a collection of timers and electromechanical relays.
Huh? I once looked over the shoulder of a municipal sparky here (municipal
electrician) who was working on a control unit for a traffic light in my
town. Sure looked digital to me - chips, transistors, capacitors - couldn't
spot any huge relays or stuff like you'd expect. And as far as I know, in
some large US cities, fire-engines, for example, have transponders that will
"flip" traffic lights for them as they approach. Not sure how you can do
that electro-mechanically.
>> - mains electricity (I shiver to think about a nuclear plant suddenly
>> losing all computerized instrumentation and monitoring systems)
>
> I'm fairly sure a nuclear plant would just automatically shut down. I'm
> pretty sure somebody will have thought of this.
Yes... again I must be clouded by my experience and what goes on here. Our
one nuclear plant had all its experienced operators fired a few years ago
and replaced with "affirmative" people - so I wouldn't be so sure. In the
first world, you're hopefully right.
>> - water supply
>
> This involves computers somehow?
Not here, but in first world countries I think so.
>> - comms of every kind (internet, wired telephone, terrestrial digital
>> radio, cellphones, fax, the works)
>
> Apparently valves are relatively unaffected by an EMP. There are
> probably plenty of ham radio ops out there who could still keep working.
A dying breed... my dad is a radio ham, but nobody younger than him are
taking up the hobby anymore. The general answer is "dude! it's so easy- just
use the net!" - no need for astronomically expensive HF sets, a morse-code
exam, etc.
>> - modern medical support (all those EKGs, MRI machines, heart-lung
>> monitors)
>
> Yeah, most of these would be ****ed.
>
> I don't know about EMP shielding, but these kinds of devices tend to be
> subjected to some pretty insane levels of safety testing. (Remember, I
> work in an industry indirectly related to medical devices.) And of
> course, doctors know how to do their work without machines. Obviously
> they can't work as well as they would, but they can still do something.
Granted.
>> - food (unless you kill the supermarket guy 'cause he won't release ANY
>> food to you - his computerized stock management system is offline, so he
>> doesn't know what he is selling, how much to order in, etc.)
>
> I doubt the baker on the village highstreet is going to let people
> starve to death over a little computer glitch. He only uses an antique
> mechanical cash register anyway. (This is not hypothetical. I'm talking
> about an actual baker I know of within walking distance.)
We once had this situation here when the town was faced with a week or more
with no power. The supermarket guys had to have the emergency services act
read to them to release any food. Their answer to why not was exactly what I
said - they couldn't track what was being sold, and the managers simply
refused to effectively corrupt their database as to stock contents. Could
have also just been an a-hole of a manager, but it made me think.
>> - access to your money
>
> That could be fun. :-D
Yep - another issue I had to write a contingency plan on once. Everything
would soon revert to cash, with all the concomitant stuff of extra police
and army to prevent robberies, more security in general (since no plastic or
debit cards could be used) etc. etc.
>> We actually gamed this out once when I was still in the emergency
>> services here (we had too - our national grid was at the point of
>> collapse) and it was quickly realized that society will regress so
>> quickly it will be catastrophic.
>>
>> Granted, that was for a loss of all mains electricity, possibly for
>> weeks, but I think some elements of that apply to major failures in
>> technology, especially computer technology.
>
> Remember the Y2K bug? The one that was supposed to make planes fall from
> the skies and nuclear reactors go into meltdown?
>
> ...
>
> Nah, it wasn't so bad. ;-)
Dude! I worked my *ss off - our town council here had a "just in case..."
attitude. Guess who had to help draft contingency plans?
>> Hey! That means that you'd most likely have to start hunting again. That
>> isn't so bad, so I guess you got a point as well! :)
>
> I'm wondering... All those absurdly fat people? Would they even *need*
> to eat?
Hehe probably not.
---
Stefan Viljoen
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Invisible wrote:
> Remember the Y2K bug? The one that was supposed to make planes fall from
> the skies and nuclear reactors go into meltdown?
>
> ...
>
> Nah, it wasn't so bad. ;-)
It wasn't so bad *because software was fixed*.
Nobody knows what could have happened if people had ignored the problem.
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