Since I started raising and selling chickens, I've become more and more 
aware of the so-called "industrial food system" in the U.S.  While I don't 
really want to use this forum as a place to opine on the nature (and 
horrors) of factory farms in the U.S., I do believe that there is a 
difference in the quality of the food produced.  Most of the people that buy 
chickens from us (we raised 300 chickens this year), do it because they also 
believe there is a difference.  Honestly, not too long ago, I was probably 
among those who thought "chicken is chicken and only hippies and 
tree-huggers believe in organics."  Ok, perhaps much of the organic food 
market is hippies and tree-huggers, but that doesn't necessarily mean they 
are wrong.

Nevertheless, "Organic" is not actually a term that we are allowed to use, 
and it's really not a term that I truly believe in, anyway.  The definition 
is too broad in many cases, and in others, it's way too narrow.  It's rife 
with the same sort of factory farming that it pretends to rally against. 
But that's a whole other issue.  As much as I hate to admit it, France, and 
much or Europe, is WAY ahead of the U.S. on these issues.  First off, the 
U.S. tries to commoditize everything.  Every chicken and every piece of corn 
is supposed just that, and no more.  Reading about the "Label Rouge" program 
in France, as it relates to chickens, and I discovered that I'm following 
almost all of their guidelines.  In fact, in the last batch, we grew-out 150 
"alternative" (non-white) chickens.  They grow slower, have fewer health 
problems, and are much tastier.  These have only been available in the US 
for a couple years now, but they have been in France since the 1960's.  Even 
so, the breeding stock is still very limited here, so we're only getting a 
very small percentage of the available breeds (technically "genetics").

But my chickens cost more to grow-out.  We sold them (bagged whole) for 
$2.10/lb, which is more than twice the price of what you'd pay at Walmart 
for "chicken".  I can't sell chickens for 99 cents per pound and break even. 
My costs on 150 chickens is about $1300, and that's just the cost of the 
chicks, feed, and processing.  150 chickens is about 900 lbs of meat, so 
doing the math, that's $1.44/lb.  In France, the Label Rouge chickens 
generally sell for more than I'm charging, so I mention that, and in that 
sense, our customers are getting a bargain.  I believe it's a superior 
product, and so do they.  :-)

So then we started buying our pork (we don't eat a lot of beef) from other 
local farmers, and discovered that it was also far superior.  Yes, we still 
buy meat from Walmart and Kroger and a local meat store (my favorite place), 
but we now understand that there is a real difference.

It's sad that our food system has become so commoditized that most people 
can't believe that there could be such a difference in quality. 
Furthermore, from what I've read, the U.S. mostly seems to be behind other 
countries in that regard.  I suppose the French have always eaten better, 
and always will, as long as we continue down the road of "cheaper is 
better".  I'm glad to be one of a few people offerring a real alternative.

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> It's sad that our food system has become so commoditized that most people 
> can't believe that there could be such a difference in quality. 

It's especially apparent (to me) in the fruits and vegetables, all of which 
taste essentially identical. Apples are cardboard here.

> Furthermore, from what I've read, the U.S. mostly seems to be behind other 
> countries in that regard.  

We have traded quality for quantity, yes.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:

> It's sad that our food system has become so commoditized that most people 
> can't believe that there could be such a difference in quality. 

Well, I don't know. I'm not convinced that one slab of chicken breast 
tastes any different to another. Then again, if I cook a chicken breast, 
I usually fry it and then dust it with pepper and paprika, so what do I 
know?

My mum likes to buy the Tesco "value bread". Hint: This stuff costs 
£0.13 per bag FOR A REASON. Specifically, it's sliced paper-thin, it's 
half-stale the day you buy it, it has no taste at all, and it's just 
horrid to eat. But in my mum's tiny lizard-brain, the loaf with the 
highest £/Kg number is the best one, and the one that must be bought. 
Personally, I buy bread costing £1.00 or more (so, 10x the price) 
because it actually tastes nice. I'm not yet so poor that £1.00 is a 
serious outlay for me...

Similarly, while I'm not convinced that a prime Aberdeen Angus stake in 
a fancy restraunt is any different to a beef stake from Tesco, I'm 
downright sure a cheap try of minced beef is not in the same league. I 
mean, have you *seen* how much fat you get out of that stuff when you 
cook it??

Also, I'm not saying they add extra water to the chicken to make it 
heavier, but... well if you slice it up and start cooking it, you end up 
with a pretty impressive lake of water...

Post a reply to this message

It's nice to hear about this.

Some years ago I participated in a EU-funded project aiming at creating 
educational material for "young" (read: new) organic farmers. The project 
was an epic disaster due to poor management but at least the texts we 
produced were OK: see the attached file for the texts about poultry. Note 
that this is for true organic farming according to the stringent EU 
regulations, but there may be a couple of interesting ideas there.

Organic livestock farming is indeed difficult. It's generally more work and 
the resulting product is more expensive due to longer production cycles. 
With true organic livestock, it is very hard to feed and treat animals and 
get as much milk/eggs/meat as in non-organic farming. In French 
supermarkets, prices for organic chicken are 2 to 3 times higher than for 
"standard" chicken ("Label" and certified chickens are expensive too, but 
less so). One solution is selling directly to customers: a colleague of mine 
just quit his job to become an organic sheep farmer (lamb meat). He 
advertises on local open markets and has a few dozens of customers in a 
30-km radius (IIRC) that he knows personally. Because there is no middlemen 
his prices are actually attractive compared to supermarkets. Of course this 
is for lamb and I don't know how it works in poultry (and I hope he's got 
his business model well figured out...).

G.

"Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay" <jer### [at] questsoftwarecmo> a écrit dans le 
message de news: 4accab1f@news.povray.org...
> Since I started raising and selling chickens, I've become more and more
> aware of the so-called "industrial food system" in the U.S.  While I don't
> really want to use this forum as a place to opine on the nature (and
> horrors) of factory farms in the U.S., I do believe that there is a
> difference in the quality of the food produced.  Most of the people that 
> buy
> chickens from us (we raised 300 chickens this year), do it because they 
> also
> believe there is a difference.  Honestly, not too long ago, I was probably
> among those who thought "chicken is chicken and only hippies and
> tree-huggers believe in organics."  Ok, perhaps much of the organic food
> market is hippies and tree-huggers, but that doesn't necessarily mean they
> are wrong.
>

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download 'poultry_uk.zip' (40 KB)

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:01:17 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>> It's sad that our food system has become so commoditized that most
>> people can't believe that there could be such a difference in quality.
> 
> Well, I don't know. I'm not convinced that one slab of chicken breast
> tastes any different to another.

I think you just unwittingly proved Jeremy's point. :-)

I can believe there is a difference, but I've tasted the difference.

Same thing with steak; I've had some downright cheap steaks in 
restaurants and bought better quality cuts myself and cooked them.  With 
a restaurant, one way of telling if they get a good quality cut is if 
they'll cook it rare.  A good quality steak is best served (IMHO) rare; 
if you are going to turn it into a charcoal briquette, you don't need 
quality because you're going to cook all the flavour out of it anyways.

That extra water?  Ice from when it's frozen, most likely.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> Well, I don't know. I'm not convinced that one slab of chicken breast
>> tastes any different to another.
> 
> I think you just unwittingly proved Jeremy's point. :-)
> 
> I can believe there is a difference, but I've tasted the difference.

Well, I don't have a great sense of taste anyway, so...

> That extra water?  Ice from when it's frozen, most likely.

Who said it was frozen?

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
news:4accbce4$1@news.povray.org...
> That extra water?  Ice from when it's frozen, most likely.

When chickens are processed in an industrial setup, they are mechanically 
eviscerated.  This leads to a large quantity of fecal matter ending up on 
the inside of the chicken.  So, to fix that, they are hosed and bathed in a 
chlorine bath for a few hours, where they also cool down with a whole bunch 
of other chickens.  As you can imagine, the carcasses at the bottom of the 
chill tank are probably pretty nasty.  When you smell a chicken from the 
store, there is an odd smell to it that's just not present on my chickens. 
I'm guessing it's the chlorine.

My processor eviscerates by hand, then drops them into the chill tank.  He 
doesn't get feces on the chicken to begin with.  If I had it my way, they 
would be air-chilled, but I can't get everything I want.  When I pick them 
up in the evening, they're all bagged and cold.

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:12:41 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> Well, I don't know. I'm not convinced that one slab of chicken breast
>>> tastes any different to another.
>> 
>> I think you just unwittingly proved Jeremy's point. :-)
>> 
>> I can believe there is a difference, but I've tasted the difference.
> 
> Well, I don't have a great sense of taste anyway, so...

I don't really either, if it comes to that.

>> That extra water?  Ice from when it's frozen, most likely.
> 
> Who said it was frozen?

Chances are it was frozen at some point along it's journey from the 
packaging plant to your local grocery store.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:17:28 -0400, Jeremy \"UncleHoot\" Praay wrote:

> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
> news:4accbce4$1@news.povray.org...
>> That extra water?  Ice from when it's frozen, most likely.
> 
> When chickens are processed in an industrial setup, they are
> mechanically eviscerated.  This leads to a large quantity of fecal
> matter ending up on the inside of the chicken.  So, to fix that, they
> are hosed and bathed in a chlorine bath for a few hours, where they also
> cool down with a whole bunch of other chickens.  As you can imagine, the
> carcasses at the bottom of the chill tank are probably pretty nasty. 
> When you smell a chicken from the store, there is an odd smell to it
> that's just not present on my chickens. I'm guessing it's the chlorine.

Probably, or a reaction with the chlorine.

> My processor eviscerates by hand, then drops them into the chill tank. 
> He doesn't get feces on the chicken to begin with.  If I had it my way,
> they would be air-chilled, but I can't get everything I want.  When I
> pick them up in the evening, they're all bagged and cold.

Where were you located again?  :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

"Gilles Tran" <gil### [at] agroparistechfr> wrote in message 
news:4accbcd9$1@news.povray.org...
> Organic livestock farming is indeed difficult. It's generally more work 
> and the resulting product is more expensive due to longer production 
> cycles. With true organic livestock, it is very hard to feed and treat 
> animals and get as much milk/eggs/meat as in non-organic farming. In 
> French supermarkets, prices for organic chicken are 2 to 3 times higher 
> than for "standard" chicken ("Label" and certified chickens are expensive 
> too, but less so). One solution is selling directly to customers: a 
> colleague of mine just quit his job to become an organic sheep farmer 
> (lamb meat). He advertises on local open markets and has a few dozens of 
> customers in a 30-km radius (IIRC) that he knows personally. Because there 
> is no middlemen his prices are actually attractive compared to 
> supermarkets. Of course this is for lamb and I don't know how it works in 
> poultry (and I hope he's got his business model well figured out...).
>

There is a provision in the law that allows us to sell chickens from our 
home in a similar way.  We really don't have a farm in the usual sense, just 
2.5 acres of land.  I use 1 acre for the chickens, which I put in a movable 
pen that gets dragged around the yard.  Suffice it to say that our grass in 
that part of the yard is very green.  :-)  When they get bigger, I often let 
them run around the yard in the evenings.  As a result, I believe our 
chickens are better than nearly all chickens that get the "organic" term 
stamped on them.  The only thing I do differently is that I don't feed them 
a certified organic feed.  But instead, they spend nearly their entire lives 
outdoors, eating grass and bugs, and whatever else they might want to 
sample.  That's where a "Label Rouge" type of designation would be nice.

We'd like to raise lamb, too.  From talking with friends, it only takes one 
season.  Buy them in the spring, and then they're ready in the fall. 
Unfortunately, I'd probably have to reduce the number of chickens we raise. 
We just don't have enough land for both at the same time.

Anyway, out of the 300 chickens we raised this year, we're keeping about 40 
for ourselves, many of which have already been eaten.  It works out such 
that I can raise my own chickens for free, by selling the rest.  It's not 
"profit" in the usual sense of the word, but it works for us.  It's a hobby 
that I enjoy, and my wife is enjoying it more and more as well.  I've 
estimated around 100 man-hours for this last 150 chicken batch.  That's 
probably a couple orders of magnitude higher than chickens raised in a 
conventional setting.

Mostly, I feel like I'm offering something to our community at a reasonable 
price.  If anyone balks at the price, I really don't care; they can buy 
their chicken from Walmart at the cheapest price possible.

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
news:4acccd31$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Where were you located again?  :-)

Mid-Michigan, north of Lansing.  Saint Johns area, to be more precise.

Post a reply to this message

>> Where were you located again?  :-)
> 
> Mid-Michigan, north of Lansing.  Saint Johns area, to be more precise. 

Ooo, viral advertising. Clever...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:01:17 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:

>Well, I don't know. I'm not convinced that one slab of chicken breast 
>tastes any different to another. Then again, if I cook a chicken breast, 
>I usually fry it and then dust it with pepper and paprika, so what do I 
>know?

A few years ago when I moved to an area of London that has a large
"Iranian/Iraqi" population. I started buying Halal meat including chicken. What
a difference in taste (just like the meat I remember from before battery
production) :D When you cook it you can see very little water that comes out of
the chicken. Unfortunately it is quite a poor area and the choice of meat cuts
is not very good but they are very tasty.


Well done Jeremy.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:55:33 -0400, Jeremy \"UncleHoot\" Praay wrote:

> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
> news:4acccd31$1@news.povray.org...
>>
>> Where were you located again?  :-)
> 
> Mid-Michigan, north of Lansing.  Saint Johns area, to be more precise.

Not near enough, then, but in the same country.  If I happened to be in 
your area, I'd be interested in trying some of your chicken. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

"Orchid XP v8" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message 
news:4accded1$1@news.povray.org...
>>> Where were you located again?  :-)
>>
>> Mid-Michigan, north of Lansing.  Saint Johns area, to be more precise.
>
> Ooo, viral advertising. Clever...
>

I don't foresee any problems with shipping meat overseas...  Do you?  ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> It's especially apparent (to me) in the fruits and vegetables, all of 
> which taste essentially identical. Apples are cardboard here.
> 

And store bought tomatoes suck! I wont eat them raw.

Post a reply to this message

Congatulations on raising 300 birds!

We just raised 100. We don't sell the meat. We eat it :)
We sell eggs. Brown eggs.
Half of our birds end up as fried chicken.(we buy mixed hens & roosters)
I've been raising chickens off and on for 15 years. I don't let them 
run, where I live (the woods in Missouri) there are to many critters.
I have never had the chance to eat one of the hens after their laying
days are done, a racoon usaly gets them first.

A friend of mine had 40 or so Reds (I grow Bar Rocks)and she's tring to 
raise them free range style. She's down to 20.

You mention the finances of growing chickens. I never did make a big 
profit, even selling eggs for two years and counting what we would spend 
for the meat of the ones we butchered. This year we already spent over 
$600 and they are just started laying.(got 4 eggs)

  How much did you pay for your chicks? We paid $1.25 each. I'm 
seriously thinking of hatching my own. All I need is an incubator and 23 
days or so of electric. If you let a hen set on them then you have to be 
real brave and quick to get those chicks from that mother hen :O

Have Fun!

Post a reply to this message

"Jeremy \"UncleHoot\" Praay" <jer### [at] questsoftwarecmo> wrote:
> Since I started raising and selling chickens, I've become more and more
> aware of the so-called "industrial food system" in the U.S.


Once was driving on the state highway through rural southeast Virginia. There
was a detour. We had to make a 2-mile jog at 5 MPH through some barely-paved
roads.  We came across this one establishment.

There were a few buildings that were painted the most depressing shade of gray.
Everything looked like a movie set for concentration camp barracks. Eventually
it dawned on me that I was on a FARM. And that these were probably makeshift
residences for migrant farmworkers who weren't there now.  The whole "graphic
design" of the place had a look and feel of trying to be as unwelcoming as
possible.

Anyway, I often wonder what the people there are like. It would be interesting
to know what kind of stories would be told by religious clergy meet with the
people who lived.  It would be interesting to hear what kind of philosophical
chats the owner would have at his local club.

Post a reply to this message

What is this "chicken" stuff? Is it similar to Meat™?

-Mike

Post a reply to this message

"Leroy Whetstone" <lrw### [at] joplincom> wrote in message 
news:4AC### [at] joplincom...
>
> Congatulations on raising 300 birds!
>
> We just raised 100. We don't sell the meat. We eat it :)
> We sell eggs. Brown eggs.
> Half of our birds end up as fried chicken.(we buy mixed hens & roosters)
> I've been raising chickens off and on for 15 years. I don't let them run, 
> where I live (the woods in Missouri) there are to many critters.
> I have never had the chance to eat one of the hens after their laying
> days are done, a racoon usaly gets them first.

I've become complacent in that regard.  Even the neighborhood dogs rarely 
show up in our yard anymore.  I just hope that if something bad does happen 
(and it will eventually), that it doesn't completely wipe them out.  I've 
read that dogs will occasionally do that.

> A friend of mine had 40 or so Reds (I grow Bar Rocks)and she's tring to 
> raise them free range style. She's down to 20.

In addion to the meat chickens, we have 14 hens and a couple banty roosters. 
I tried to get a variety of egg colors ranging from brown to light-brown to 
white to green.  It's fun to put them in the carton and see a rainbow of egg 
colors.  :-)

> You mention the finances of growing chickens. I never did make a big 
> profit, even selling eggs for two years and counting what we would spend 
> for the meat of the ones we butchered. This year we already spent over 
> $600 and they are just started laying.(got 4 eggs)

I can't seem to make money selling eggs.  There are too many other people 
doing the same thing in my area.  So, we just try to sell the extras and 
consider it a hobby.

>  How much did you pay for your chicks? We paid $1.25 each. I'm seriously 
> thinking of hatching my own. All I need is an incubator and 23 days or so 
> of electric. If you let a hen set on them then you have to be real brave 
> and quick to get those chicks from that mother hen :O
>
> Have Fun!

This last batch, I bought 150 from www.jmhatchery.com for around $1.20 each, 
including shipping.  They're not your standard cornish cross meat chicken. 
Most of the time, I try to buy from my local hatchery (around $1.25 
shipped), or from the farm store in the spring, which sells them for 99 
cents each.

Post a reply to this message

"SharkD" <mik### [at] gmailcom> wrote in message 
news:4acdddb0$1@news.povray.org...
> What is this "chicken" stuff? Is it similar to MeatT?
>
> -Mike
>

The funny thing about that remark is that "meat" as defined by the USDA does 
not include poultry.  They have one set of regulations for "meat" (pork, 
lamb, beef, etc) and another for poultry.  Lucky for me, the poultry 
regulations aren't as cumbersome.

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay escreveu:
> Mostly, I feel like I'm offering something to our community at a reasonable 
> price.  If anyone balks at the price, I really don't care; they can buy 
> their chicken from Walmart at the cheapest price possible. 

Exactly:  create your own audience.  One should not be concerned that 
most will eat at McDonald's when thinking about opening a restaurant...

all this chicken talk left me hungry... :P

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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Leroy Whetstone wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> It's especially apparent (to me) in the fruits and vegetables, all of 
>> which taste essentially identical. Apples are cardboard here.
>>
> 
> And store bought tomatoes suck! I wont eat them raw.
> 
> 
Bred to look perfect! Oh, wait.. you mean they are also supposed to 
taste like something? Damn you're picky! lol

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Invisible wrote:
> Also, I'm not saying they add extra water to the chicken to make it 
> heavier, but... well if you slice it up and start cooking it, you end up 
> with a pretty impressive lake of water...
Water (+ gunk) is often added to chicken breasts to make them heavier.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/chicken-injected-with-beef-waste-sold-in-uk-1696407.html

Post a reply to this message

"Verm" <a@b> wrote in message news:4acf4ac5$1@news.povray.org...
> Water (+ gunk) is often added to chicken breasts to make them heavier.
>
>
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/chicken-injected-with-beef-waste-sold-in-uk-1696407.html

Wow.  It's kind of sad when you feel like you need an ingredients label on 
something as simple as a chicken breast.

We grew-out a chicken to 10 lbs (dressed weight) last year, just by letting 
it live a couple extra weeks.  The breast on it was HUGE.  It took us 
several more dinners and lunches to finish it off.  :-)

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> 
> Nevertheless, "Organic" is not actually a term that we are allowed to use, 
> and it's really not a term that I truly believe in, anyway.

I stock at Wal-Mart at night (supplements my military pension), and I 
have quite a bit to say about the labeling.

I am firmly convinced that the laws should prohibit any plant or animal 
being named on the front of the packaging if there is any artificial 
flavorings added.  It shouldn't say "orange" if the flavor does not come 
from an actual orange.  Ditto for "grape," "root beer," and "crab."

The other night I was stocking the dairy section.  One item I stocked 
bore the words, "Natural Vanilla Soy Milk."  I was thinking, "Uh, no, if 
you squeeze a soybean, vanilla milk does not come out."

We also stock "natural" Colby/Monterey Jack cheese.  I had not known 
that two different kinds of cheese naturally formed in one batch.

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

John VanSickle wrote:
> "Natural Vanilla Soy Milk." 

"Soy beans do not have teats!"  (George Carlin, I think)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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