My daughter loves to draw.  Honestly, at 11, she might already be able to 
draw better than I can.  That's not saying a whole lot, though, but I think 
she has potential.  She LOVES anime, and that's where her artistic interest 
lies.  She wants to be an "animator".

When I was younger, I loved to draw and paint, and perhaps I could have 
developed that part of myself, but instead, I decided to take a much more 
practical view of the rest of my life, and went into the computer field, 
essentially guaranteeing (I hoped) that I would have a job somewhere.  Do I 
have regrets?  A little.  Do I think I made the wrong choice?  No.  But what 
I do think about is that I could have still mixed-in some art classes in 
high school and college.  Instead, I went all-out geek, and only took 
"geeky" classes: programming (obviously), math, physics, chemistry, etc. 
That's what I regret.

But as for my daughter, she may have more potential than I did.  She will 
likely never be a Salvador Dali, or Hayao Miyazaki, but perhaps she could be 
a Yoshitoshi Abe (one of my favorite animators).  Or maybe she'll change her 
mind when she's 16.  Who knows.  I just want to make sure that I encourage 
her in the mean-time, and if she does choose to take the artistic path, I'd 
like to know what that entails, but I don't know anything.

Any advice?  Tips?

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:

> Any advice?  Tips? 

Some day I will be a horrible, horrible parent. You probably shouldn't 
take any kind of parent-related advice from me.



I'm always of the opinion that if you enjoy doing something, you should 
keep doing it.

Unless it's cocane, in which case you should stop. Immediately.



Indie: If that's what you love doing, that's great, and don't let 
anybody tell you any different.

Marrion: Indie, he's your son.

Indie: WHY DIDN'T YOU FINISH SCHOOL?!

Post a reply to this message

That reminds me that my dad used to encourage me in my youth artistic 
endeavours.  Once I decided to learn to paint, oil, brushes, frames and 
all.  There goes my old man and brings home the full painter's kit.  For 
some reason I can't understand even now, I never touched it.

I can't really say whatever happened, certainly it was not my intention 
to piss off my father.  Perhaps I was too much overwhelmed by the task... :(

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Some day I will be a [...] parent.

  At least you still are optimistic... ;)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> Some day I will be a [...] parent.
> 
>   At least you still are optimistic... ;)

I love you too. :-P

Post a reply to this message

Encouraging your child to be creative may be the very best gift you can give 
her, I think.

I'd suggest you get her a copy of the basic version of the software Anime 
Studio from Smith Micro. It's really very easy to use, it's not awfully 
expensive, and it comes with some good starter content. Despite the name, 
it's good for almost any kind of 2D animation. You can import your own 
images to animate, it's got good vector drawing tools, and it can even 
import some 3D content (OBJ format, I think) and give you a 2D 
representation of it.

For traditional animation, I highly recommend "The Animator's Survival Kit" 
by Richard Williams. It covers 2D cel style animation, but it's got stuff 
that's very useful for any animation medium. Another old one I like is 
"Timing for Animation".

Manga art on paper, which is the art style that Anime derives from, is 
traditionaly done with brush and ink or brush markers. If you hunt around 
you can find some nice felt tip brush markers that are made with the Manga 
artist in mind; they'll come in sets of varying thickness, with black and a 
couple of shades of gray.

For general study in drawing, you can't beat "Drawing on the Right Side of 
the Brain", by Betty Edwards. There's a companion workbook you can get for 
it that's pretty good, too.

I've found a lot of good art instruction books at my local used bookstore 
(Half-Price Books is the chain I have access to around here) and they're 
always pretty affordable.


"Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay" <jer### [at] questsoftwarecmo> wrote in message 
news:4abb70bc$1@news.povray.org...
> My daughter loves to draw.  Honestly, at 11, she might already be able to 
> draw better than I can.  That's not saying a whole lot, though, but I 
> think she has potential.  She LOVES anime, and that's where her artistic 
> interest lies.  She wants to be an "animator".
>
> When I was younger, I loved to draw and paint, and perhaps I could have 
> developed that part of myself, but instead, I decided to take a much more 
> practical view of the rest of my life, and went into the computer field, 
> essentially guaranteeing (I hoped) that I would have a job somewhere.  Do 
> I have regrets?  A little.  Do I think I made the wrong choice?  No.  But 
> what I do think about is that I could have still mixed-in some art classes 
> in high school and college.  Instead, I went all-out geek, and only took 
> "geeky" classes: programming (obviously), math, physics, chemistry, etc. 
> That's what I regret.
>
> But as for my daughter, she may have more potential than I did.  She will 
> likely never be a Salvador Dali, or Hayao Miyazaki, but perhaps she could 
> be a Yoshitoshi Abe (one of my favorite animators).  Or maybe she'll 
> change her mind when she's 16.  Who knows.  I just want to make sure that 
> I encourage her in the mean-time, and if she does choose to take the 
> artistic path, I'd like to know what that entails, but I don't know 
> anything.
>
> Any advice?  Tips?
>

Post a reply to this message

Captain Jack wrote:
> Encouraging your child to be creative may be the very best gift you can give 
> her, I think.

I'm not gonna argue with that.

> For general study in drawing, you can't beat "Drawing on the Right Side of 
> the Brain", by Betty Edwards. There's a companion workbook you can get for 
> it that's pretty good, too.

I have this book. I found it to be rather unhelpful.

Post a reply to this message

"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message 
news:4abb954c@news.povray.org...
>> For general study in drawing, you can't beat "Drawing on the Right Side 
>> of the Brain", by Betty Edwards. There's a companion workbook you can get 
>> for it that's pretty good, too.
>
> I have this book. I found it to be rather unhelpful.

I've got another book I like, called "From Script to Screen" (IIRC, by 
Shamus Calhun, the spelling of which I may be butchering badly) where the 
author talks about traditional animation (really more history and business 
than artistry, but, still...) and he talks about his drawing technique, and 
how it's similar to what Betty Edwards was talking about.

What I took away from her book was the importance of getting away from rigid 
structures and goals in my drawing (I do my best thinking in terms of 
mathematics and software design) and to let the myself "zone out" and "just 
draw". There's something about letting loose of concentration and analysis 
and especially a need to erase that has helped my drawing skills a lot.

Not that they didn't need serious improvement from the outset, mind you. :)

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> My daughter loves to draw.  Honestly, at 11, she might already be able to 
> draw better than I can.  That's not saying a whole lot, though, but I think 
> she has potential.  She LOVES anime, and that's where her artistic interest 
> lies.  She wants to be an "animator".

Encourage her to experiment with different styles of drawing. Different
media, perspectives, layout. More on why, later.

> When I was younger, I loved to draw and paint, and perhaps I could have 
> developed that part of myself, but instead, I decided to take a much more 
> practical view of the rest of my life, and went into the computer field, 
> essentially guaranteeing (I hoped) that I would have a job somewhere.  Do I 
> have regrets?  A little.  Do I think I made the wrong choice?  No.  But what 
> I do think about is that I could have still mixed-in some art classes in 
> high school and college.  Instead, I went all-out geek, and only took 
> "geeky" classes: programming (obviously), math, physics, chemistry, etc. 
> That's what I regret.

I did the same as a kid. I could handle 2 point perspective before I was
ten, and was trying to wrap my head around 3 point. I loved Imagination
Station on PBS, but that might be aimed a little too young for an 11
year old.

What stopped me, and got me behind a camera or keyboard was too many
people telling me what I should not be drawing. No one told me what I
should try, just that there were things I shouldn't draw.

Don't over critique her work. If you notice that she is trying a new
style or technique, offer subtle pointers if you have to but help her
spot the stuff first. Ask for an explanation why, if say one shadow is
going the wrong direction or a building is leaning out of kilter, she
did that. That will also help her get used to the BS sessions that she
may do later if she goes to art school. At 11 she can get away with "The
red splotches represent my inner anger when my pet hamster died." but at
19 that will just get an eye-roll from professors.

> But as for my daughter, she may have more potential than I did.  She will 
> likely never be a Salvador Dali, or Hayao Miyazaki, but perhaps she could be 
> a Yoshitoshi Abe (one of my favorite animators).  Or maybe she'll change her 
> mind when she's 16.  Who knows.  I just want to make sure that I encourage 
> her in the mean-time, and if she does choose to take the artistic path, I'd 
> like to know what that entails, but I don't know anything.
> 
> Any advice?  Tips? 
> 
> 

Yeah, she will never be any of the folks you mentioned. She will either
be her self, with her own style and vision, or she won't be in the right
field. Taking after someone elses style in order to learn a new style is
fine. Striving to be like another artist leaves your own work feeling
dull, since your real meaning was to copy, not create.

Take her to museums when you can. Teach her to critique other peoples
work by doing so. You may never have to teach her to critique her own
work, then. Take her out and teach her to draw a scene; landscape,
buildings, whatever; exactly as she sees it. And how to draw things that
she doesn't see.

Even if she changes her mind later, she will always have those skills
and the memories of learning them from YOU.

And even if she doesn't study graphic art later, there is always
photography, advertising, chemistry, physics, computers, math, biology
and everything else. All of which can be applied to artistic endeavor.
So encourage every hobby that you can. I don't mean you need to buy her
all the tools she needs; drums if she wants to be a drummer one day,
lots of paints, paper and easels for painting, a new computer and Maya
for 3D animation. But get her to look at the tools, figure out if she is
willing to put in the time and effort to both acquire the tools and
learn to use them.


Disclaimer: Not a parent myself. Just what I have picked up from
baby-sitting teenagers, child psychology, and watching freshman trying
to build portfolios for college. The last is amusing if you are studying
in a different department and can listen in on what the professors
actually think.

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:10:58 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:

>Warp wrote:
>> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> Some day I will be a [...] parent.
>> 
>>   At least you still are optimistic... ;)
>
>I love you too. :-P

That wasn't very nice. I read it as being optimistic.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:18:31 -0400, "Jeremy \"UncleHoot\" Praay"
<jer### [at] questsoftwarecmo> wrote:

>Any advice?  Tips? 

Take her to art galleries. It may not make her artistic but will give her a
background. Keep it short unless she is showing an interest. Try it a couple of
times before letting her give it up. It could be fun for a family outing.
Imagine her asking a question that you have to research together. :-)
Admittedly when I was young I had access to what I though was a very good Art
Gallery and Museum that my mother took me to it when I was very young. I then
started going on my own with school friends. (That sounds like a logical
fallacy. :) 
If she finds it interesting then it can be an interest for life. If she gets
bored then she can save a lot of time now rather than finding it out later.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

"nemesis" <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote in message 
news:4abb75ad@news.povray.org...
> That reminds me that my dad used to encourage me in my youth artistic 
> endeavours.  Once I decided to learn to paint, oil, brushes, frames and 
> all.  There goes my old man and brings home the full painter's kit.  For 
> some reason I can't understand even now, I never touched it.
>
> I can't really say whatever happened, certainly it was not my intention to 
> piss off my father.  Perhaps I was too much overwhelmed by the task... :(

Or perhaps you felt too much pressure.  I can relate to that.

Post a reply to this message

"Sabrina Kilian" <ski### [at] vtedu> wrote in message 
news:4abbacfb$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Yeah, she will never be any of the folks you mentioned. She will either
> be her self, with her own style and vision, or she won't be in the right
> field. Taking after someone elses style in order to learn a new style is
> fine. Striving to be like another artist leaves your own work feeling
> dull, since your real meaning was to copy, not create.

I didn't mean it in the respect that she should take after someone else's 
style, but simply that she could possibly make a living in that business, 
but would probably never achieve superstardom.

Thanks for the advice!  I'm going to try to keep some of these things in my 
mind over the next few years.

Post a reply to this message

"Captain Jack" <Cap### [at] comcastnet> wrote in message 
news:4abb93e0@news.povray.org...
> Encouraging your child to be creative may be the very best gift you can 
> give her, I think.
>
> I'd suggest you get her a copy of the basic version of the software Anime 
> Studio from Smith Micro. It's really very easy to use, it's not awfully 
> expensive, and it comes with some good starter content. Despite the name, 
> it's good for almost any kind of 2D animation. You can import your own 
> images to animate, it's got good vector drawing tools, and it can even 
> import some 3D content (OBJ format, I think) and give you a 2D 
> representation of it.

Maybe later.  My philosophy in that regard is not to get bogged down in the 
tools, but to learn to draw first.  Although, arguably some tools teach you 
to draw, so it's something I'm keeping in mind.

> For traditional animation, I highly recommend "The Animator's Survival 
> Kit" by Richard Williams. It covers 2D cel style animation, but it's got 
> stuff that's very useful for any animation medium. Another old one I like 
> is "Timing for Animation".
>
> Manga art on paper, which is the art style that Anime derives from, is 
> traditionaly done with brush and ink or brush markers. If you hunt around 
> you can find some nice felt tip brush markers that are made with the Manga 
> artist in mind; they'll come in sets of varying thickness, with black and 
> a couple of shades of gray.

Currently, that's where she is most interested.  She's certainly not 
animating anything yet, but she loves doing manga-style characters.  Thanks 
for that tidbit.  :-)

> For general study in drawing, you can't beat "Drawing on the Right Side of 
> the Brain", by Betty Edwards. There's a companion workbook you can get for 
> it that's pretty good, too.
>
> I've found a lot of good art instruction books at my local used bookstore 
> (Half-Price Books is the chain I have access to around here) and they're 
> always pretty affordable.

The way I see it, anime/manga is her starting point.  I'd like to open up 
the rest of the world from that point.  Who knows, in 10 years, manga-style 
illustration may be huge in the US.  Or maybe she'll want to move to Japan. 
Or, maybe graphic-design is eventually where she will find herself.  Or 
maybe she'll become a lawyer.  I just don't want to ever feel like I'm 
"pushing" her in one direction or another, but simply giving her some 
parental guidance.

Post a reply to this message

> The way I see it, anime/manga is her starting point.  I'd like to open up 
> the rest of the world from that point.  Who knows, in 10 years, 
> manga-style illustration may be huge in the US.  Or maybe she'll want to 
> move to Japan. Or, maybe graphic-design is eventually where she will find 
> herself.  Or maybe she'll become a lawyer.  I just don't want to ever feel 
> like I'm "pushing" her in one direction or another, but simply giving her 
> some parental guidance.

As long as you encourage her and accept her (informed) decisions, I think 
she'll turn out all right. No matter what, things will probably get 
difficult for a few years, but they get better when the kids turn about 20 
or so. My daughter is getting married next week... we had a pretty rough 
patch when she was about 17 or so, but she seems to think (in emulation of 
Mark Twain) that her old man may have gotten somewhat smarter since then. :)

Post a reply to this message

"Jeremy \"UncleHoot\" Praay" <jer### [at] questsoftwarecmo> wrote:
> "nemesis" <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote in message
> news:4abb75ad@news.povray.org...
> > That reminds me that my dad used to encourage me in my youth artistic
> > endeavours.  Once I decided to learn to paint, oil, brushes, frames and
> > all.  There goes my old man and brings home the full painter's kit.  For
> > some reason I can't understand even now, I never touched it.
> >
> > I can't really say whatever happened, certainly it was not my intention to
> > piss off my father.  Perhaps I was too much overwhelmed by the task... :(
>
> Or perhaps you felt too much pressure.  I can relate to that.

I strongly agree.  In fact, Jeremy, accidental pressure can be a very large
issue, even to the point that it may be a good idea to avoid giving her
unrequested art supplies directly, instead providing her with a small "art
supply budget" for birthdays or other such, and let her decide what to get with
it (the rationale being that a well meaning person can accidentally pressure you
in a direction by, say, gifting a set of watercolors when you really prefer oil
pastels, but you don't want to disappoint them).  Disclaimer:  I am not a
parent.

-Reactor

Post a reply to this message

Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> > Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> Some day I will be a [...] parent.
> > 
> >   At least you still are optimistic... ;)

> I love you too. :-P

  After a certain age you just start accepting the cold facts, rather than
clinging to hope. Some things are just not meant to happen.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 09:18:31 -0400, Jeremy \"UncleHoot\" Praay wrote:

> Any advice?  Tips?

Make the tools available to her that help her do what she wants.  That's 
the best way of encouraging someone to do what they find interesting and 
fun.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:33:55 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> Some day I will be a horrible, horrible parent. You probably shouldn't
> take any kind of parent-related advice from me.
> 
> I'm always of the opinion that if you enjoy doing something, you should
> keep doing it.

If that's the quality of advice you're able to give, Andy, then you will 
be an *excellent* parent if you can follow your own advice.

Seriously.  What you've just said there is the way my parents treated my 
brother and I.  They encouraged us to try things until we found "our 
thing", and then made it possible for us to keep doing what we loved 
doing.

> Unless it's cocane, in which case you should stop. Immediately.

That's a good point, applies to any self-destructive behaviour, really.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>> But as for my daughter, she may have more potential than I did.  She will 
>> likely never be a Salvador Dali, or Hayao Miyazaki, but perhaps she could be 
>> a Yoshitoshi Abe (one of my favorite animators).  Or maybe she'll change her 
>> mind when she's 16.  Who knows.  I just want to make sure that I encourage 
>> her in the mean-time, and if she does choose to take the artistic path, I'd 
>> like to know what that entails, but I don't know anything.
> Yeah, she will never be any of the folks you mentioned. She will either
> be her self, with her own style and vision, or she won't be in the right
> field. Taking after someone elses style in order to learn a new style is
> fine. Striving to be like another artist leaves your own work feeling
> dull, since your real meaning was to copy, not create.

And yet, for traditional oriental art, copying is considered more noble 
than creating.  Emulating another's style to the point where you can 
make something that they haven't that looks exactly like something they 
would make is a much more difficult task than coming up with your own 
style.  FWIW.  Being like another artist is only dull if you pick a dull 
artist or fail to sufficiently copy their style.

Also, ABe Yoshitoshi's art is pretty neurotic...the needed mindset to 
really draw like that might not be where you want your daughter to go.

--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> The way I see it, anime/manga is her starting point.  I'd like to open up 
> the rest of the world from that point.  Who knows, in 10 years, manga-style 
> illustration may be huge in the US.

Actually, it already is.  It is *incredibly* popular among 
starting-artists, and correspondingly sneered at by Fine Arts people due 
to that popularity and the excess of really bad drawings made by the 
boatload by said starting-artists.  However, refined works that show a 
bit more effort and development are often just as appealing as things 
drawn by established big-name illustrators.

--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:

>> For general study in drawing, you can't beat "Drawing on the Right 
>> Side of the Brain", by Betty Edwards. There's a companion workbook you 
>> can get for it that's pretty good, too.
> 
> 
> I have this book. I found it to be rather unhelpful.
So what??????????

I can think of one person I've known, a HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL designer, who 
credits that book, singularly, for his success.

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:

> Any advice?  Tips? 
> 
> 
I particularily agree with the advice several have already offered here, 
to expose her to as much original art as you can, museums, galleries, 
etc.  From even a single piece of museum art she may feel the identity 
with the 'tribe', feel their companionship, and their challenge.

And from you, unconditional support, no critiques.

And as others have also said, have the supplies available to nurture the 
interest.  (From my own memories, paper, reams of it, enough to swim in.)

Use a light touch.  Even if it goes no where it will have been a part of 
her life lived intensely.

Post a reply to this message

On 09/24/09 16:35, Jim Henderson wrote:
> If that's the quality of advice you're able to give, Andy, then you will
> be an *excellent* parent if you can follow your own advice.
>
> Seriously.  What you've just said there is the way my parents treated my
> brother and I.  They encouraged us to try things until we found "our
> thing", and then made it possible for us to keep doing what we loved
> doing.

	I'd say not to draw too many conclusions. There are far too many 
variables. I know places where that would be horrible advice (mostly 
some third world countries).


-- 
If you think nobody cares, try missing a couple of payments.

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:25:37 -0500, Neeum Zawan wrote:

> On 09/24/09 16:35, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> If that's the quality of advice you're able to give, Andy, then you
>> will be an *excellent* parent if you can follow your own advice.
>>
>> Seriously.  What you've just said there is the way my parents treated
>> my brother and I.  They encouraged us to try things until we found "our
>> thing", and then made it possible for us to keep doing what we loved
>> doing.
> 
> 	I'd say not to draw too many conclusions. There are far too many
> variables. I know places where that would be horrible advice (mostly
> some third world countries).

Which isn't exactly where Andy is, is it? ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

"Jeremy \"UncleHoot\" Praay" <jer### [at] questsoftwarecmo> wrote:
> I just don't want to ever feel like I'm
> "pushing" her in one direction or another, but simply giving her some
> parental guidance.

You've got the right mindset.  Just give here the materials and opportunity to
get involved in what she wants to do.  If the motivation isn't there already it
won't happen, and if it is, you just have to show an interest and make it
possible.  My parents always cheered/cheer for me, but make it clear they don't
care whether I win or not, or whether I do something else entirely.

 - Ricky

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message 
news:4abc23c7@news.povray.org...
> Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>
>> Any advice?  Tips?
> I particularily agree with the advice several have already offered here, 
> to expose her to as much original art as you can, museums, galleries, etc. 
> From even a single piece of museum art she may feel the identity with the 
> 'tribe', feel their companionship, and their challenge.
>
> And from you, unconditional support, no critiques.
>
> And as others have also said, have the supplies available to nurture the 
> interest.  (From my own memories, paper, reams of it, enough to swim in.)
>
> Use a light touch.  Even if it goes no where it will have been a part of 
> her life lived intensely.

From my memories, my Mom was always simply saying things like, "Wow, Jeremy! 
That looks great!"  That was nice.  My Dad, on the other hand, would often 
be more critical, but was also very supportive.  That was true, not just of 
my paintings, but schoolwork, sports, etc.  "That's great, but I know you 
can do better."  To this day, I really don't know if that helped me, or 
hindered me, or had no overall effect.  I'm sure it motivated me, but I'm 
not sure that it motivated me in the right way.  It's more heavy handed than 
I would like to be with my daughter.

Post a reply to this message

"Tim Cook" <z99### [at] gmailcom> wrote in message 
news:4abc0330$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Also, ABe Yoshitoshi's art is pretty neurotic...the needed mindset to 
> really draw like that might not be where you want your daughter to go.
>
I love this picture: 
http://injongi.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/1175335868891.jpg

10 years ago, I would have looked down my nose at pretty much all 
manga/anime.  Then my daughter decided "Spirited Away" looked like a neat 
movie to watch, and I'd read about it on Slashdot, so I bought it.  We have 
different tastes (we should!), but both of us have developed an interest. 
Plus, we're both Japanophiles now.  ;-)

Post a reply to this message

On 09/24/09 21:39, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 	I'd say not to draw too many conclusions. There are far too many
>> variables. I know places where that would be horrible advice (mostly
>> some third world countries).
>
> Which isn't exactly where Andy is, is it? ;-)

	Which is why I said "mostly". Even developed countries may have really 
silly policies where this may not be a great idea.

	In the US, things are _very_ flexible. You could try one thing, and if 
you give up/fail, there are lots of other opportunities. You could start 
university at 30+ easily.

	In a number of countries (including, I'm sure, some developed ones), 
you have to pick a path while fairly young (16-22), and beyond that age, 
the opportunities in doing something else drop exponentially. A lot of 
places don't let you go to university at age 30, and the few that do are 
of significantly lower standards (often designed to view 30  year olds 
who haven't gone to college as being dim).

	I don't know if the UK is like that, though.

-- 
Would the capacity of a Palaeozoic Hard Dive be measured in Trilobites?

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On 09/25/09 08:24, Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>> And from you, unconditional support, no critiques.
>>
>> And as others have also said, have the supplies available to nurture the
>> interest.  (From my own memories, paper, reams of it, enough to swim in.)
>>
>> Use a light touch.  Even if it goes no where it will have been a part of
>> her life lived intensely.
>
>  From my memories, my Mom was always simply saying things like, "Wow, Jeremy!
> That looks great!"  That was nice.  My Dad, on the other hand, would often
> be more critical, but was also very supportive.  That was true, not just of
> my paintings, but schoolwork, sports, etc.  "That's great, but I know you
> can do better."  To this day, I really don't know if that helped me, or
> hindered me, or had no overall effect.  I'm sure it motivated me, but I'm
> not sure that it motivated me in the right way.  It's more heavy handed than
> I would like to be with my daughter.

	Along these lines, I suggest everyone really read:

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

	Actually, a similar article about the same research, which somehow got 
more popular on the net is the below:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids

	A few years ago it was being passed around a lot, and I'd say it's the 
most non-religious/non-political article that I've received as a forward 
from friends. At the time, I wondered what all the fuss was about. The 
stuff in the article is common sense, and I knew it all: It being the 
story of my life.

	Well, apparently not many actually knew about it - and perhaps no one 
had actually researched it till now.

	The summary if you don't want to read it all is that parents should 
avoid praising intelligence, and should focus more on praising effort.

-- 
Would the capacity of a Palaeozoic Hard Dive be measured in Trilobites?

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Neeum Zawan wrote:
> -- 
 > Would the capacity of a Palaeozoic Hard Dive be measured in Trilobites?

This is the win, people!

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"Neeum Zawan" <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote in message 
news:4abcdaf7$1@news.povray.org...

> The summary if you don't want to read it all is that parents should avoid 
> praising intelligence, and should focus more on praising effort.

I see the value in that. My mother taught me, before I entered school, that 
I was smarter than all the other children. When I started school and 
complained that no one wanted to be friends with me, she taught me that all 
the other kids were jealous of how smart I was. When I started getting beat 
up, she told me that that was the price I had to pay for being so smart.

Fortunately, I *was* smart enough to realize how useless her advice was, and 
I learned to keep my smart [sic] comments to myself. :)

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Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:

> 
> Any advice?  Tips? 
> 

Not a parent, just a guy who's old enough to have seen a lot of kids 
around me grow up and who knows a few professional artists.

I have come to believe that a parent's role is to ensure his child has 
the maximum number of choices available to her when she becomes an 
adult. Most of the teenagers I know aren't going to have many choices in 
adulthood because they have been given too many as children. They are 
crippled by distraction and laziness. Those who seem to be surviving the 
MySpace/PlayStation/CellPhone/XBox/Facebook epidemic are those who are 
engaged in disciplined, competitive activities. Art without discipline 
is poisonous. So what if it fosters creativity? Text messaging fosters 
creativity -- "sexting" especially I would think.

I believe absolutely that a human being is designed to hunt for his 
supper and, if not given the opportunity to do so, will almost always 
become insane and depressed. I wouldn't let my daughter just /have/ 
drawing anymore than I would let her just /have/ money. I would subject 
her to an appropriate amount of honest criticism of her work. Laziness, 
even intellectual or creative laziness, is more debilitating than 
smoking. How would you react if you caught her smoking? Afraid she'll 
quit drawing if you don't "support" her failures? Why is no one afraid 
his daughter will quit academics if he doesn't support her failures in 
that area?

On the practical end, I would suggest buying her many technical books on 
drawing. I don't draw, but I imagine it's much like POV-Ray in that the 
mastering of technical skills increases the development speed of 
artistic skills. We've all spent weeks laying a (too solid) foundation 
for a creative idea that didn't pan out. Had we properly parameterized 
that foundation, we could have tried several artistic ideas in the same 
amount of time. Of course, one can go too far in that direction as well.

  -Shay

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"Shay" <n@n.n> wrote in message news:4abcf6f1$1@news.povray.org...
> Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>
>>
>> Any advice?  Tips?
>
> Not a parent, just a guy who's old enough to have seen a lot of kids 
> around me grow up and who knows a few professional artists.
>
> I have come to believe that a parent's role is to ensure his child has the 
> maximum number of choices available to her when she becomes an adult. Most 
> of the teenagers I know aren't going to have many choices in adulthood 
> because they have been given too many as children. They are crippled by 
> distraction and laziness. Those who seem to be surviving the 
> MySpace/PlayStation/CellPhone/XBox/Facebook epidemic are those who are 
> engaged in disciplined, competitive activities. Art without discipline is 
> poisonous. So what if it fosters creativity? Text messaging fosters 
> creativity -- "sexting" especially I would think.

Yes.  Discipline is needed to be successful at _anything_ in life. 
Unfortunately, I lack a lot of it myself, and I'm often concerned that I 
haven't properly taught it to my daughter.  (not to be confused with 
punishment, even though the terms are often used as if they are 
interchangeable.)

> I believe absolutely that a human being is designed to hunt for his supper 
> and, if not given the opportunity to do so, will almost always become 
> insane and depressed. I wouldn't let my daughter just /have/ drawing 
> anymore than I would let her just /have/ money. I would subject her to an 
> appropriate amount of honest criticism of her work. Laziness, even 
> intellectual or creative laziness, is more debilitating than smoking. How 
> would you react if you caught her smoking? Afraid she'll quit drawing if 
> you don't "support" her failures? Why is no one afraid his daughter will 
> quit academics if he doesn't support her failures in that area?

That is where things get fuzzy, though.  On the one hand, you want to guide 
your child.  On the other, you don't want to be so heavy handed as to cause 
them to hate what they are doing.  Hard work, in any field, can be very 
enjoyable.  Unfortunately, most of us don't really believe that.
>
> On the practical end, I would suggest buying her many technical books on 
> drawing. I don't draw, but I imagine it's much like POV-Ray in that the 
> mastering of technical skills increases the development speed of artistic 
> skills. We've all spent weeks laying a (too solid) foundation for a 
> creative idea that didn't pan out. Had we properly parameterized that 
> foundation, we could have tried several artistic ideas in the same amount 
> of time. Of course, one can go too far in that direction as well.
>
I have never been taught to draw.  Ever.  I used to think that the best way 
to learn anything was to teach yourself by simply doing it.  For most 
things, I wouldn't even bother cracking open a book.  Well, that may have 
some merit, but I no longer believe it.  The truth was that I just didn't 
like someone telling me what to do and telling me what I was doing wrong.  I 
know my daughter is the same way, so it's a tricky balance.  The best way to 
get any person to agree with (or to) something is to let them think it was 
_their_ idea.  In that regard, I show her things that "I just happen to come 
across" on the Internet, then see what she wants to do with it.  "Oh, you 
want that technical book on drawing?  I don't know...  Let me think about 
it..."  ;-)

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Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> "Shay" <n@n.n> wrote in message news:4abcf6f1$1@news.povray.org...
> 
>>Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>>

> Yes.  Discipline is needed to be successful at _anything_ in life. 
> Unfortunately, I lack a lot of it myself, and I'm often concerned that I 
> haven't properly taught it to my daughter.  (not to be confused with 
> punishment, even though the terms are often used as if they are 
> interchangeable.)
> 
> 

I think there is instances where discipline can come later and/or from 
outside.  Give direction on life issues sure, but not aesthetics.

I spent hours with my daughter tossing her pitches to bat into a screen. 
  I gave her technical coaching on batting not at all. We had great 
times.  She had a huge appetite for practice. Later her high school 
coach, who actually knows something about it, took that raw material and 
turned her into one of the leading batters in the city.  Meanwhile I 
watched as the children of other parents smothered trying to please 
half-baked demands to 'straighten your hips' or 'bend your knees more' 
or whatever.

I remember as a child my dad taking me to a museum and, God bless him, 
trying to relate, pointing out to me that the thick impasto on one 
painting was gotten with a stubby thick brush.  Of course just the 
opposite is true and I loved him for trying but I knew I was on my own 
course and I needed to seek out others like me.  I recognized how hard 
it was for him when I chose art class over boy scouts.

The precious thing about an eleven year old making drawings is that they 
are actually creating little worlds for themselves.  Not works of 
aesthetics.

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Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> 10 years ago, I would have looked down my nose at pretty much all 
> manga/anime.  Then my daughter decided "Spirited Away" looked like a neat 
> movie to watch, and I'd read about it on Slashdot, so I bought it.  We have 
> different tastes (we should!), but both of us have developed an interest. 
> Plus, we're both Japanophiles now.  ;-) 

Check out anything by Shinkai Makoto.

--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net

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