"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message 
news:4abc23c7@news.povray.org...
> Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>
>> Any advice?  Tips?
> I particularily agree with the advice several have already offered here, 
> to expose her to as much original art as you can, museums, galleries, etc. 
> From even a single piece of museum art she may feel the identity with the 
> 'tribe', feel their companionship, and their challenge.
>
> And from you, unconditional support, no critiques.
>
> And as others have also said, have the supplies available to nurture the 
> interest.  (From my own memories, paper, reams of it, enough to swim in.)
>
> Use a light touch.  Even if it goes no where it will have been a part of 
> her life lived intensely.

From my memories, my Mom was always simply saying things like, "Wow, Jeremy! 
That looks great!"  That was nice.  My Dad, on the other hand, would often 
be more critical, but was also very supportive.  That was true, not just of 
my paintings, but schoolwork, sports, etc.  "That's great, but I know you 
can do better."  To this day, I really don't know if that helped me, or 
hindered me, or had no overall effect.  I'm sure it motivated me, but I'm 
not sure that it motivated me in the right way.  It's more heavy handed than 
I would like to be with my daughter.

Post a reply to this message

"Tim Cook" <z99### [at] gmailcom> wrote in message 
news:4abc0330$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Also, ABe Yoshitoshi's art is pretty neurotic...the needed mindset to 
> really draw like that might not be where you want your daughter to go.
>
I love this picture: 
http://injongi.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/1175335868891.jpg

10 years ago, I would have looked down my nose at pretty much all 
manga/anime.  Then my daughter decided "Spirited Away" looked like a neat 
movie to watch, and I'd read about it on Slashdot, so I bought it.  We have 
different tastes (we should!), but both of us have developed an interest. 
Plus, we're both Japanophiles now.  ;-)

Post a reply to this message

On 09/24/09 21:39, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> 	I'd say not to draw too many conclusions. There are far too many
>> variables. I know places where that would be horrible advice (mostly
>> some third world countries).
>
> Which isn't exactly where Andy is, is it? ;-)

	Which is why I said "mostly". Even developed countries may have really 
silly policies where this may not be a great idea.

	In the US, things are _very_ flexible. You could try one thing, and if 
you give up/fail, there are lots of other opportunities. You could start 
university at 30+ easily.

	In a number of countries (including, I'm sure, some developed ones), 
you have to pick a path while fairly young (16-22), and beyond that age, 
the opportunities in doing something else drop exponentially. A lot of 
places don't let you go to university at age 30, and the few that do are 
of significantly lower standards (often designed to view 30  year olds 
who haven't gone to college as being dim).

	I don't know if the UK is like that, though.

-- 
Would the capacity of a Palaeozoic Hard Dive be measured in Trilobites?

Post a reply to this message

On 09/25/09 08:24, Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>> And from you, unconditional support, no critiques.
>>
>> And as others have also said, have the supplies available to nurture the
>> interest.  (From my own memories, paper, reams of it, enough to swim in.)
>>
>> Use a light touch.  Even if it goes no where it will have been a part of
>> her life lived intensely.
>
>  From my memories, my Mom was always simply saying things like, "Wow, Jeremy!
> That looks great!"  That was nice.  My Dad, on the other hand, would often
> be more critical, but was also very supportive.  That was true, not just of
> my paintings, but schoolwork, sports, etc.  "That's great, but I know you
> can do better."  To this day, I really don't know if that helped me, or
> hindered me, or had no overall effect.  I'm sure it motivated me, but I'm
> not sure that it motivated me in the right way.  It's more heavy handed than
> I would like to be with my daughter.

	Along these lines, I suggest everyone really read:

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

	Actually, a similar article about the same research, which somehow got 
more popular on the net is the below:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-to-raising-smart-kids

	A few years ago it was being passed around a lot, and I'd say it's the 
most non-religious/non-political article that I've received as a forward 
from friends. At the time, I wondered what all the fuss was about. The 
stuff in the article is common sense, and I knew it all: It being the 
story of my life.

	Well, apparently not many actually knew about it - and perhaps no one 
had actually researched it till now.

	The summary if you don't want to read it all is that parents should 
avoid praising intelligence, and should focus more on praising effort.

-- 
Would the capacity of a Palaeozoic Hard Dive be measured in Trilobites?

Post a reply to this message

Neeum Zawan wrote:
> -- 
 > Would the capacity of a Palaeozoic Hard Dive be measured in Trilobites?

This is the win, people!

Post a reply to this message

"Neeum Zawan" <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote in message 
news:4abcdaf7$1@news.povray.org...

> The summary if you don't want to read it all is that parents should avoid 
> praising intelligence, and should focus more on praising effort.

I see the value in that. My mother taught me, before I entered school, that 
I was smarter than all the other children. When I started school and 
complained that no one wanted to be friends with me, she taught me that all 
the other kids were jealous of how smart I was. When I started getting beat 
up, she told me that that was the price I had to pay for being so smart.

Fortunately, I *was* smart enough to realize how useless her advice was, and 
I learned to keep my smart [sic] comments to myself. :)

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:

> 
> Any advice?  Tips? 
> 

Not a parent, just a guy who's old enough to have seen a lot of kids 
around me grow up and who knows a few professional artists.

I have come to believe that a parent's role is to ensure his child has 
the maximum number of choices available to her when she becomes an 
adult. Most of the teenagers I know aren't going to have many choices in 
adulthood because they have been given too many as children. They are 
crippled by distraction and laziness. Those who seem to be surviving the 
MySpace/PlayStation/CellPhone/XBox/Facebook epidemic are those who are 
engaged in disciplined, competitive activities. Art without discipline 
is poisonous. So what if it fosters creativity? Text messaging fosters 
creativity -- "sexting" especially I would think.

I believe absolutely that a human being is designed to hunt for his 
supper and, if not given the opportunity to do so, will almost always 
become insane and depressed. I wouldn't let my daughter just /have/ 
drawing anymore than I would let her just /have/ money. I would subject 
her to an appropriate amount of honest criticism of her work. Laziness, 
even intellectual or creative laziness, is more debilitating than 
smoking. How would you react if you caught her smoking? Afraid she'll 
quit drawing if you don't "support" her failures? Why is no one afraid 
his daughter will quit academics if he doesn't support her failures in 
that area?

On the practical end, I would suggest buying her many technical books on 
drawing. I don't draw, but I imagine it's much like POV-Ray in that the 
mastering of technical skills increases the development speed of 
artistic skills. We've all spent weeks laying a (too solid) foundation 
for a creative idea that didn't pan out. Had we properly parameterized 
that foundation, we could have tried several artistic ideas in the same 
amount of time. Of course, one can go too far in that direction as well.

  -Shay

Post a reply to this message

"Shay" <n@n.n> wrote in message news:4abcf6f1$1@news.povray.org...
> Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>
>>
>> Any advice?  Tips?
>
> Not a parent, just a guy who's old enough to have seen a lot of kids 
> around me grow up and who knows a few professional artists.
>
> I have come to believe that a parent's role is to ensure his child has the 
> maximum number of choices available to her when she becomes an adult. Most 
> of the teenagers I know aren't going to have many choices in adulthood 
> because they have been given too many as children. They are crippled by 
> distraction and laziness. Those who seem to be surviving the 
> MySpace/PlayStation/CellPhone/XBox/Facebook epidemic are those who are 
> engaged in disciplined, competitive activities. Art without discipline is 
> poisonous. So what if it fosters creativity? Text messaging fosters 
> creativity -- "sexting" especially I would think.

Yes.  Discipline is needed to be successful at _anything_ in life. 
Unfortunately, I lack a lot of it myself, and I'm often concerned that I 
haven't properly taught it to my daughter.  (not to be confused with 
punishment, even though the terms are often used as if they are 
interchangeable.)

> I believe absolutely that a human being is designed to hunt for his supper 
> and, if not given the opportunity to do so, will almost always become 
> insane and depressed. I wouldn't let my daughter just /have/ drawing 
> anymore than I would let her just /have/ money. I would subject her to an 
> appropriate amount of honest criticism of her work. Laziness, even 
> intellectual or creative laziness, is more debilitating than smoking. How 
> would you react if you caught her smoking? Afraid she'll quit drawing if 
> you don't "support" her failures? Why is no one afraid his daughter will 
> quit academics if he doesn't support her failures in that area?

That is where things get fuzzy, though.  On the one hand, you want to guide 
your child.  On the other, you don't want to be so heavy handed as to cause 
them to hate what they are doing.  Hard work, in any field, can be very 
enjoyable.  Unfortunately, most of us don't really believe that.
>
> On the practical end, I would suggest buying her many technical books on 
> drawing. I don't draw, but I imagine it's much like POV-Ray in that the 
> mastering of technical skills increases the development speed of artistic 
> skills. We've all spent weeks laying a (too solid) foundation for a 
> creative idea that didn't pan out. Had we properly parameterized that 
> foundation, we could have tried several artistic ideas in the same amount 
> of time. Of course, one can go too far in that direction as well.
>
I have never been taught to draw.  Ever.  I used to think that the best way 
to learn anything was to teach yourself by simply doing it.  For most 
things, I wouldn't even bother cracking open a book.  Well, that may have 
some merit, but I no longer believe it.  The truth was that I just didn't 
like someone telling me what to do and telling me what I was doing wrong.  I 
know my daughter is the same way, so it's a tricky balance.  The best way to 
get any person to agree with (or to) something is to let them think it was 
_their_ idea.  In that regard, I show her things that "I just happen to come 
across" on the Internet, then see what she wants to do with it.  "Oh, you 
want that technical book on drawing?  I don't know...  Let me think about 
it..."  ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> "Shay" <n@n.n> wrote in message news:4abcf6f1$1@news.povray.org...
> 
>>Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>>

> Yes.  Discipline is needed to be successful at _anything_ in life. 
> Unfortunately, I lack a lot of it myself, and I'm often concerned that I 
> haven't properly taught it to my daughter.  (not to be confused with 
> punishment, even though the terms are often used as if they are 
> interchangeable.)
> 
> 

I think there is instances where discipline can come later and/or from 
outside.  Give direction on life issues sure, but not aesthetics.

I spent hours with my daughter tossing her pitches to bat into a screen. 
  I gave her technical coaching on batting not at all. We had great 
times.  She had a huge appetite for practice. Later her high school 
coach, who actually knows something about it, took that raw material and 
turned her into one of the leading batters in the city.  Meanwhile I 
watched as the children of other parents smothered trying to please 
half-baked demands to 'straighten your hips' or 'bend your knees more' 
or whatever.

I remember as a child my dad taking me to a museum and, God bless him, 
trying to relate, pointing out to me that the thick impasto on one 
painting was gotten with a stubby thick brush.  Of course just the 
opposite is true and I loved him for trying but I knew I was on my own 
course and I needed to seek out others like me.  I recognized how hard 
it was for him when I chose art class over boy scouts.

The precious thing about an eleven year old making drawings is that they 
are actually creating little worlds for themselves.  Not works of 
aesthetics.

Post a reply to this message

Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> 10 years ago, I would have looked down my nose at pretty much all 
> manga/anime.  Then my daughter decided "Spirited Away" looked like a neat 
> movie to watch, and I'd read about it on Slashdot, so I bought it.  We have 
> different tastes (we should!), but both of us have developed an interest. 
> Plus, we're both Japanophiles now.  ;-) 

Check out anything by Shinkai Makoto.

--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net

Post a reply to this message