Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> My personal thought on the matter is 
> 
> Did you ever study this stuff formally? Or are you guessing?
> 
>> conditions, the vibrations introduced by thermal variance, and 
>> possibly other sources of energy, introduce a situation where its no 
>> longer possible for all particles to be in a single state. 
> 
> I'm not even sure what that means, but since I can observe the effects 
> of quantum mechanical superpositions at the macroscopic scale (without 
> even having any sophisticated equipment) I find this an unlikely 
> explanation.
> 
This isn't saying that you can't produce special conditions where the 
general rule is violated, just that, outside those conditions, it does. 
Much like Newton applying in a general sense, relativity in others, and 
there being some cases where that doesn't *quite* apply either, given 
the correct conditions.

And, no, I can't say that I have studied it extensively, but I am not 
guessing either. We know, unless we are seeing things, that every atom 
in a room doesn't spontaneously *leap* to one corner. There has to be a 
reason for it, and the best reason available is that, under normal 
conditions, interactions between particle, weak or otherwise, prevent 
it. This is why you have to create conditions where some of those are 
"not" happening. The question isn't if, but what is doing it, and why 
the macro level states you manage happen at all, when they shouldn't, 
based on observation of everything else. Why can you intentionally 
violate the rules, when normally nothing, including the intent to do 
something, like walking through a wall, which would be a similar 
violation, is normally never happening? Enlighten me. What else, other 
than freeform interaction, without something specifically designed to 
"create" conditions where a violation of the normal rules can happen, 
stops it from happening all the time?

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> There has to be a 
> reason for it, and the best reason available is that, under normal 
> conditions, interactions between particle, weak or otherwise, prevent 
> it.

Yes, of course. The only point I'm contesting is the assertion that a single 
interaction with a single particle is enough to collapse the waveform and 
serve as an "observation".

> "not" happening. The question isn't if, but what is doing it, and why 
> the macro level states you manage happen at all, when they shouldn't, 

Who says they shouldn't?

> Enlighten me. What else, other 
> than freeform interaction, without something specifically designed to 
> "create" conditions where a violation of the normal rules can happen, 
> stops it from happening all the time?

Probability. You *can* walk thru the wall. The odds against it happening are 
just 1^-1000.

Just like you *can* randomly shuffle a deck of cards and come up with Ace 
thru King in each suit in order when you're done. It's just so phenomenally 
rare that you'd never expect to see it happen.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> There has to be a reason for it, and the best reason available is 
>> that, under normal conditions, interactions between particle, weak or 
>> otherwise, prevent it.
> 
> Yes, of course. The only point I'm contesting is the assertion that a 
> single interaction with a single particle is enough to collapse the 
> waveform and serve as an "observation".
> 
>> "not" happening. The question isn't if, but what is doing it, and why 
>> the macro level states you manage happen at all, when they shouldn't, 
> 
> Who says they shouldn't?
> 
>> Enlighten me. What else, other than freeform interaction, without 
>> something specifically designed to "create" conditions where a 
>> violation of the normal rules can happen, stops it from happening all 
>> the time?
> 
> Probability. You *can* walk thru the wall. The odds against it happening 
> are just 1^-1000.
> 
> Just like you *can* randomly shuffle a deck of cards and come up with 
> Ace thru King in each suit in order when you're done. It's just so 
> phenomenally rare that you'd never expect to see it happen.
> 
Hmm. The problem with such probabilities is, much like winning the 
lotto, no matter how rare they are, someone is bound to observe 
"something" that is doing them, given the number of total attempts 
(i.e., the number of objects, just on this planet, and the number of 
fractions of a second that are available, even in a human life time). To 
not happen, the odds would have to be so unlikely that they could only 
transpire like.. twice in the entirely history of the universe? I am not 
convinced.

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> the odds would have to be so unlikely that they could only 
> transpire like.. twice in the entirely history of the universe? 

If that. Probably closer to 10^-100 times in the entire history of the 
universe.  If you're talking about something like all the atoms in a room 
suddenly all going left and right, leaving you in the middle suffocating.

Remember, there's some 10^22 atoms of nitrogen in each gram of atmosphere in 
your room. If each one is 25% likely to be going the right direction, what's 
the likelyhood a kilogram of them will all go the right direction?

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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