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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/6128905/Germany-angered-over-legal-ruling-to-allow-Islamist-to-name-son-Jihad.html
Can any germans here explain why the government would give a crap about what
the kid is named?
I've seen articles about sweedish authorities rejecting kids being named
completely with punctuation, or 100-digit numbers, or something like that,
which makes sense if you grant that it has to work in computers nowadays.
But censoring a name like "Woodstock" or "Peppermint"? Censoring
non-gender-specific names?
And would Moonunit Zappa have to change her name to be a german citizen?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:45:49 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
>And would Moonunit Zappa have to change her name to be a german citizen?
No but she should anyway. ;)
--
Regards
Stephen
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Am Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:45:49 -0700 schrieb Darren New:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/6128905/
Germany-angered-over-legal-ruling-to-allow-Islamist-to-name-son-Jihad.html
>
That sounds as if we germans are about to revolt :). Come on telegraph I
didn't even *read* about it.
> Can any germans here explain why the government would give a crap about
> what the kid is named?
Only if there might be "severe damage" to the child due to the name as
far as I can tell. You can't name your child Adolf Hitler here.
After a quick wikipedia read it seems, that german authorities are bound
to the name laws of the origin of the parents of the child not
necessarily the german name laws.
>
> I've seen articles about sweedish authorities rejecting kids being named
> completely with punctuation, or 100-digit numbers, or something like
> that, which makes sense if you grant that it has to work in computers
> nowadays. But censoring a name like "Woodstock" or "Peppermint"?
> Censoring non-gender-specific names?
>
> And would Moonunit Zappa have to change her name to be a german citizen?
I guess if you have the name already its not a problem. Also I don't see
that that name would be a problem... but than I also don't see the
restrictions as a big problem...
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Florian Pesth wrote:
> Only if there might be "severe damage" to the child due to the name as
> far as I can tell. You can't name your child Adolf Hitler here.
I can understand that, as well as the restriction on it having to actually
have alphabetic characters and such. The article made it sound like "Sandy"
would be rejected because you can't tell if it's a guy or a girl. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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Florian Pesth schrieb:
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/6128905/
> Germany-angered-over-legal-ruling-to-allow-Islamist-to-name-son-Jihad.html
>
> That sounds as if we germans are about to revolt :). Come on telegraph I
> didn't even *read* about it.
It also sounds like the Telegraph is way more intersted in raging about
the father's background than discussing German naming issues. As if the
one had anything to do with the other.
In Germany, whether you can name your child Djehad or not has nothing to
do with whether you're a fanatic islamist suicide bomber, or just a
secular arabic-speaking mother to whom pregnancy was a "struggle" (which
appears to be the original meaning of the word "jihad").
Ah, and no - I haven't heard of the whole thing until right now either.
>> Can any germans here explain why the government would give a crap about
>> what the kid is named?
>
> Only if there might be "severe damage" to the child due to the name as
> far as I can tell. You can't name your child Adolf Hitler here.
And you can't name a child contrary to its gender, i.e. if a name is
traditionally used for girls only, you can't name your son thus. Though
this might be directly connected to the "severe damage" thing: A boy
named "Sue" isn't really prone to have an easy life...
>> And would Moonunit Zappa have to change her name to be a german citizen?
>
> I guess if you have the name already its not a problem. Also I don't see
> that that name would be a problem... but than I also don't see the
> restrictions as a big problem...
Absolutely: You can prove you already have that name? You keep that name.
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Darren New schrieb:
> I can understand that, as well as the restriction on it having to
> actually have alphabetic characters and such. The article made it sound
> like "Sandy" would be rejected because you can't tell if it's a guy or a
> girl. :-)
There are actually German first names that can be used for both. What
German restrictions do forbid is using an unambiguously female name for
a boy.
"A boy named Sue" wouldn't be possible in Germany (though that didn't
stop a German artist to actually make a German version of that song).
Then again, however, it does allow this for middle names, e.g. a boy can
be named "Klaus Maria" (in fact "Maria" is the most commonly seen middle
name of this type).
If I'm not mistaken this also allows to work around other German naming
restrictions; that is, for instance you could name your boy child "Klaus
Sputnik" if you absolutely want him to be named "Sputnik".
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On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:05:44 +0200, clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
>And you can't name a child contrary to its gender, i.e. if a name is
>traditionally used for girls only, you can't name your son thus. Though
>this might be directly connected to the "severe damage" thing: A boy
>named "Sue" isn't really prone to have an easy life...
Just out of interest, does German have names that are used for either sex? Like
Lesley or Francis in English.
--
Regards
Stephen
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Stephen schrieb:
> Just out of interest, does German have names that are used for either sex? Like
> Lesley or Francis in English.
Some, yes. Though most of them are either (a) originally shortened forms
of distinctively male or female names (e.g. "Chris", which could be a
short form of either "Christoph" or "Christian", but also of
"Christina", "Christiane" or "Christel"), (b) names "imported" from
other languages (e.g. "Etienne") or (c) both (e.g. "Sam" could be short
for either "Samuel" or "Samantha" - or, in recent days, "Samwise" for
that matter :-) - with only "Samuel" having a significant tradition here
in Germany to be considered a "German" name [though 70 years ago many
people would have strongly objected even to that, but that's a totally
different story].)
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Can any germans here explain why the government would give a crap about what
> the kid is named?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak
(I'm not German, though.)
--
- Warp
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On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:04:24 +0200, clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
>Stephen schrieb:
>> Just out of interest, does German have names that are used for either sex? Like
>> Lesley or Francis in English.
>
>Some, yes. Though most of them are either (a) originally shortened forms
>of distinctively male or female names (e.g. "Chris", which could be a
>short form of either "Christoph" or "Christian", but also of
>"Christina", "Christiane" or "Christel"),
We have those too male names with a feminine suffix: Stephen - Stephanie, Paul -
Paula etc.
> (b) names "imported" from
>other languages (e.g. "Etienne")
That is something that does not happen very much in the UK. Most "foreign" names
are anglicised except those from the subcontinent or Islamic names where it is
obvious that the people are not natives. I have met a few Africans with names
like "Blessed" or "Joyful" which always raises a smile.
>or (c) both (e.g. "Sam" could be short
>for either "Samuel" or "Samantha" - or, in recent days, "Samwise" for
>that matter :-) - with only "Samuel" having a significant tradition here
>in Germany to be considered a "German" name [though 70 years ago many
>people would have strongly objected even to that, but that's a totally
>different story].)
Indeed it is. :)
It is nice to be able to talk about it after all this time. The BBC is running a
series of programmes ATM about events leading up to the war and what happened
during the war. They seem, to me, very open and unbiased especially concerning
what would now be considered war crimes by the allies.
--
Regards
Stephen
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Stephen wrote:
>> (b) names "imported" from
>> other languages (e.g. "Etienne")
>
> That is something that does not happen very much in the UK. Most "foreign" names
> are anglicised except those from the subcontinent or Islamic names where it is
> obvious that the people are not natives. I have met a few Africans with names
> like "Blessed" or "Joyful" which always raises a smile.
The company I work for employes a lady named Joy. She recently gave
birth to a baby girl named Hope. *groans*
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On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:34:48 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>Stephen wrote:
>
>>> (b) names "imported" from
>>> other languages (e.g. "Etienne")
>>
>> That is something that does not happen very much in the UK. Most "foreign" names
>> are anglicised except those from the subcontinent or Islamic names where it is
>> obvious that the people are not natives. I have met a few Africans with names
>> like "Blessed" or "Joyful" which always raises a smile.
>
>The company I work for employes a lady named Joy. She recently gave
>birth to a baby girl named Hope. *groans*
Neither name is uncommon nor is Charity, or at least they were in the not to
distant past.
--
Regards
Stephen
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>> The company I work for employes a lady named Joy. She recently gave
>> birth to a baby girl named Hope. *groans*
>
> Neither name is uncommon nor is Charity, or at least they were in the not to
> distant past.
Brings a whole new meaning to "full of hope", eh? ;-)
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On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:50:06 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> The company I work for employes a lady named Joy. She recently gave
>>> birth to a baby girl named Hope. *groans*
>>
>> Neither name is uncommon nor is Charity, or at least they were in the not to
>> distant past.
>
>Brings a whole new meaning to "full of hope", eh? ;-)
Or "no Joy" ;)
--
Regards
Stephen
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Stephen wrote:
> like "Blessed" or "Joyful" which always raises a smile.
I met a chinese woman who named her daughter "May", which is the word for
"rose" in mandarin. Or something like that. In any case, a very clever
bilingual pun.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:36 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>Stephen wrote:
>> like "Blessed" or "Joyful" which always raises a smile.
>
>I met a chinese woman who named her daughter "May", which is the word for
>"rose" in mandarin. Or something like that. In any case, a very clever
>bilingual pun.
Yes very clever.
--
Regards
Stephen
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I'm suprised no one posted http://xkcd.com/327/ yet ;)
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On 4-9-2009 0:45, Darren New wrote:
>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/6128905/Germany-angered-over-legal-ruling-to-allow-Islamist-to-name-son-Jihad.html
>
>
> Can any germans here explain why the government would give a crap about
> what the kid is named?
The Netherlands have sort of the same rules. Including following the
rules in the country of origin of the parents.
There is a debate here about the Moroccan rules. They only accept Arabic
names (not even traditional names from non-arabic endemic tribes to
suppress local culture). Moroccan parents get a list of names acceptable
by the Moroccan government to choose from from the Dutch civil servants,
even if they have the Dutch nationality. The problem is that if you have
the Moroccan nationality you can't get rid of it. All Dutch citizens
with a Moroccan ancestry have a double nationality. Also their children
become Moroccan citizens if they want to or not. Taken all together it
means that for generation to come, the naming of a lot of Dutch people
is restricted by Morocco. Some people here can get very upset by such
things. BTW if you think it is not a big deal, not following this rule
will make it impossible for the child ever to enter Morocco and possibly
even the parent may face prosecution if the enter the country.
About our own rules and conventions, they got more relaxed. It used to
be that only names that were already in use were allowed. A friend of
mine was named Jur, which is sort of an abbreviation of Jurriaan. His
parents had to prove that this name was in use before it was accepted by
our government. (Which incidently shows that those that complain about
the Moroccan government have not so good a memory). These rules were
sort of circumvented later if the parents wanted to be 'unique' by taken
names from other countries. So we have a lot of 'Bjorn's and 'Kjelt's
and other scandinavian names, but also more extreme ones, starting from
about the eighties.
Now it is almost completely free, quite a lot of people have ridiculous
names and even the traditional ones are seldom spelt they way you would
expect.
Male/female: I have two nieces Robin and Charlie, both female to
everyone's surprise, both names are boy names here. I assume that if
they had a brother it would be called Alan or something like that. I do
have a cousin with that name, perfectly English name of course, except
that it is extremely uncommon here. Very common, however, is 'Ellen'
which is a girls only name that happens to be pronounced exactly the same.
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BTW coincidentally just saw this video about differences in names between
USA and Germany:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyA9-tkDBSg
This is a very nice show in general.
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Darren New wrote:
> Stephen wrote:
>> like "Blessed" or "Joyful" which always raises a smile.
>
> I met a chinese woman who named her daughter "May", which is the word for
> "rose" in mandarin. Or something like that. In any case, a very clever
> bilingual pun.
http://bash.org/?879548
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