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Every once in a while, someone will write a story wherein faith in deities
is justified. I like those stories. I've found very few. Most are like the
commedians who make fun of atheists, most of whom seem to just state
"They're atheists" in some way, then laugh, as in "can you believe he said
he didn't believe in god? WTF?"
The stories I *dis*like are where the deity is just shown to be someone
playing at being a deity, or
I've found a few novels where the handling of deities was well done.
"Calculating God" - Robert Sawyer. (My favorite such, and best written methinks)
"Wunderland Gambit" - Jack Chaucer. (Stupid, stupid series of novels about a
group of people who get thrown into parallel or virtual universes, one of
which contains an actual functioning deity. Each individual world was
interesting, but the overall premise was stupid.)
"The Prophesy" - starring C. Walkens. Lots of fun.
Some book which is vaguely cyberpunk plus greek gods which was stupid for
anyone who knew how computers work. (Demons in place of firewalls, logging
into Olympusnet, dumb stuff like that, but actual deities.)
There were one or two others I'd thought of that kind of fit the mold, but
apparently not well enough to remember exactly what they were.
Any others that people can suggest? That are good? That don't treat deities
as "sufficiently advanced technology" or "aliens that appeared long ago"?
That contain actual deities rather than just faith therein? (Actually, just
faith therein where the faithful are ultimately justified would do. :-)
I bring this up, because I recently read a short story wherein someone on a
SF world participated in a ritual that reinforced his faith in the local
deity to the point of unshakableness. It was handled wonderfully, with the
faith bringing the kind of inner peace one would expect even in the face of
others doubting. But then the protagonist finds his faith not to be
justified but rather a scientific result during his further studies in
science, and he then goes to try to convince others that they're high rather
than enlightened, which for me spoiled the story. A world where the
appropriate ritual reveals the actual deity is much more interesting than
one in which the appropriate ritual reveals a biochemical high that feels
like faith, methinks.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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The only book that springs to mind with a really strange deity:
"The Other Side" by Alfred Kubin (1909)
I don't think it meets all required criteria, however. It's rather classic
phantasy literature than cyberpunk - but very weird and off-beat. And certainly
not funny but rather dark, depressing and dystopic.
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On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:57:33 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
>Any others that people can suggest? That are good?
I like Roger Zelazny; Lord of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness and Isle of
the Dead are about deities. I've got a lot of his stories in rtf and pdf format
(unfortunatly not Creatures of Light and Darkness which is out of print).
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 08/23/09 20:57, Darren New wrote:
> Every once in a while, someone will write a story wherein faith in
> deities is justified. I like those stories. I've found very few. Most
> are like the commedians who make fun of atheists, most of whom seem to
> just state "They're atheists" in some way, then laugh, as in "can you
> believe he said he didn't believe in god? WTF?"
I usually tend to point out how many of the loud atheists are so like
religious people ;-)
> I bring this up, because I recently read a short story wherein someone
> on a SF world participated in a ritual that reinforced his faith in the
> local deity to the point of unshakableness. It was handled wonderfully,
> with the faith bringing the kind of inner peace one would expect even in
> the face of others doubting. But then the protagonist finds his faith
> not to be justified but rather a scientific result during his further
> studies in science, and he then goes to try to convince others that
> they're high rather than enlightened, which for me spoiled the story. A
> world where the appropriate ritual reveals the actual deity is much more
> interesting than one in which the appropriate ritual reveals a
> biochemical high that feels like faith, methinks.
Oceanic?
To be honest, I don't see why that story got the accolades it did. I
felt it wasn't particularly creative nor original. Dark Integers was so
much better (and with that, I've exhausted all the Egan stories/novels
I've read).
--
How do frogs die? Ker-mit suicide.
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mone wrote:
> The only book that springs to mind with a really strange deity:
> "The Other Side" by Alfred Kubin (1909)
>
> I don't think it meets all required criteria, however. It's rather classic
> phantasy literature than cyberpunk
I wasn't looking for cyberpunk. I was looking for actual deities treated
with a reasonable amount of respect. (Cyberpunk deities are actually kind of
silly, in the 1 or 2 cases I've run across it.
> - but very weird and off-beat. And certainly
> not funny but rather dark, depressing and dystopic.
Cool. Thanks!
Stephen wrote:
> I like Roger Zelazny; Lord of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness and
Isle of
> the Dead are about deities.
Thank you. The only thing I liked of his was one collection of shorts (that
I haven't again found) wherein each short is one legend, apparently all
about the same guy. It was really cool, because they were all in the style
of legends: bad thing happens, hero shows up, solves problem, continues on
his quest.
Neeum Zawan wrote:
> Oceanic?
Yes, exactly. I was somewhat trying to avoid spoilers. :-)
> To be honest, I don't see why that story got the accolades it did. I
> felt it wasn't particularly creative nor original.
Agreed. It just really killed me to find out the guy was wrong after all.
Or, well, not that so much, but to have his faith shattered by mere reality
when it was serving him so well. Maybe I need to re-read it.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:52:42 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>Stephen wrote:
> > I like Roger Zelazny; Lord of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness and
>Isle of
> > the Dead are about deities.
>
>
>Thank you. The only thing I liked of his was one collection of shorts (that
>I haven't again found) wherein each short is one legend, apparently all
>about the same guy. It was really cool, because they were all in the style
>of legends: bad thing happens, hero shows up, solves problem, continues on
>his quest.
Going from Wikipedia that sounds like Dilvish, the Damned, which I can't
remember reading. I do have a copy of his follow up novel "The Changing Land" in
html format.
--
Regards
Stephen
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Stephen wrote:
> Going from Wikipedia that sounds like Dilvish, the Damned, which I can't
> remember reading. I do have a copy of his follow up novel "The Changing Land" in
> html format.
It's entirely possible there's more than one in the series. "The Changing
Land" definitely rings a bell.
Oh, and as far as deity-friendly fiction goes, Holly Lisle's "Sympathy for
the Devil" and its sequels are also very good. My favorite conversation there:
Gabriel: "My Lord, the devils are violating their agreement."
God: "Well, what did you expect?"
Gabriel: "But they must be punished!"
God: "They're already damned to hell. What would you have me do?"
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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If short stories will do for you, maybe you'll like these:
Isaac Asimov, "The Final Question"
Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God"
(Though it's just a "maybe"; they're a bit different from what you
describe.)
---
"insufficient data for meaningful answer"
- Multivac
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Darren New schrieb:
> Gabriel: "My Lord, the devils are violating their agreement."
> God: "Well, what did you expect?"
> Gabriel: "But they must be punished!"
> God: "They're already damned to hell. What would you have me do?"
Man, that's a good one :-P
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It might be something different than you're thinking, but there's always
CS Lewis' Space Trilogy. The short story "The Nine Billion Names of
God" also seems in this same vein. Unfortunately I don't read too much
science fiction these days, so that's all I can think of at the moment.
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On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:54:22 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>Stephen wrote:
>> Going from Wikipedia that sounds like Dilvish, the Damned, which I can't
>> remember reading. I do have a copy of his follow up novel "The Changing Land" in
>> html format.
>
>It's entirely possible there's more than one in the series. "The Changing
>Land" definitely rings a bell.
>
>Oh, and as far as deity-friendly fiction goes, Holly Lisle's "Sympathy for
>the Devil" and its sequels are also very good. My favorite conversation there:
>
>Gabriel: "My Lord, the devils are violating their agreement."
>God: "Well, what did you expect?"
>Gabriel: "But they must be punished!"
>God: "They're already damned to hell. What would you have me do?"
Consign them to Disneyland!
------------------------------------------------
The Agnostic's Prayer
Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I
ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or
failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but
something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may
be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may
be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure
your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected
intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may
have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for
you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this
ceremony. Amen.
--
Regards
Stephen
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clipka wrote:
> Darren New schrieb:
>> Gabriel: "My Lord, the devils are violating their agreement."
>> God: "Well, what did you expect?"
>> Gabriel: "But they must be punished!"
>> God: "They're already damned to hell. What would you have me do?"
>
> Man, that's a good one :-P
Yes. God was wonderfully laid back in those stories. An excellent betrayal
of what I think a lot of the more moderate Christians think it's like, in
some sense.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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clipka wrote:
> (Though it's just a "maybe"; they're a bit different from what you
> describe.)
Read them both. They'd both fall under what I'd consider as good stories of
the genre I'm talking about, thanks!
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Every once in a while, someone will write a story wherein faith in deities
> is justified. I like those stories. I've found very few. Most are like the
> commedians who make fun of atheists, most of whom seem to just state
> "They're atheists" in some way, then laugh, as in "can you believe he said
> he didn't believe in god? WTF?"
>
> The stories I *dis*like are where the deity is just shown to be someone
> playing at being a deity, or
>
> I've found a few novels where the handling of deities was well done.
>
> "Calculating God" - Robert Sawyer. (My favorite such, and best written methinks)
>
> "Wunderland Gambit" - Jack Chaucer. (Stupid, stupid series of novels about a
> group of people who get thrown into parallel or virtual universes, one of
> which contains an actual functioning deity. Each individual world was
> interesting, but the overall premise was stupid.)
>
> "The Prophesy" - starring C. Walkens. Lots of fun.
>
> Some book which is vaguely cyberpunk plus greek gods which was stupid for
> anyone who knew how computers work. (Demons in place of firewalls, logging
> into Olympusnet, dumb stuff like that, but actual deities.)
>
> There were one or two others I'd thought of that kind of fit the mold, but
> apparently not well enough to remember exactly what they were.
>
> Any others that people can suggest? That are good? That don't treat deities
> as "sufficiently advanced technology" or "aliens that appeared long ago"?
> That contain actual deities rather than just faith therein? (Actually, just
> faith therein where the faithful are ultimately justified would do. :-)
>
> I bring this up, because I recently read a short story wherein someone on a
> SF world participated in a ritual that reinforced his faith in the local
> deity to the point of unshakableness. It was handled wonderfully, with the
> faith bringing the kind of inner peace one would expect even in the face of
> others doubting. But then the protagonist finds his faith not to be
> justified but rather a scientific result during his further studies in
> science, and he then goes to try to convince others that they're high rather
> than enlightened, which for me spoiled the story. A world where the
> appropriate ritual reveals the actual deity is much more interesting than
> one in which the appropriate ritual reveals a biochemical high that feels
> like faith, methinks.
>
> --
> Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
> Understanding the structure of the universe
> via religion is like understanding the
> structure of computers via Tron.
Have you read American Gods by Neil Gaiman? I really liked it. It is basically
about how the various gods are real, and the more people believe in them, the
stronger they are. The problem, of course, is that living in the United States
in the present, the old gods find their power... a bit less than they'd prefer.
I saw your other post about big mysteries, and this has a few of them. Overall
a very nice read, although some things may be more enjoyable if you have a
familiarity with mythology (or a willingness to put it down and look something
up). You don't have to, but a lot of the things will make more sense.
-Reactor
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Reactor wrote:
> Have you read American Gods by Neil Gaiman? I really liked it.
I tried it once, but I never really liked anything Gaiman wrote by himself.
Maybe I'll give this another try when I run out of books. Thanks!
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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I think you might either mean "Frost & Fire", a collection of short stories
by R.Z. or "My Name is Legion" (three short stories about the same guy).
Then, you might mean "Roadmarks" (Last exit to Babylon)... although this is
a single story with multiple stoylines.
"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4A9### [at] sanrrcom...
> Thank you. The only thing I liked of his was one collection of shorts
> (that I haven't again found) wherein each short is one legend, apparently
> all about the same guy. It was really cool, because they were all in the
> style of legends: bad thing happens, hero shows up, solves problem,
> continues on his quest.
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More Zelazny: the Amber decalogy (if that is a word)
Douglas Adams: the Dirk Gently books.
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andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> More Zelazny: the Amber decalogy (if that is a word)
Or just the first five, if you have doubts. I tend to recommend that sequence to
anyone I discuss fiction with!
> Douglas Adams: the Dirk Gently books.
Ooh yes, especially the second one. The first one's cleverer, but the second one
features more gods. :)
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TC wrote:
> I think you might either mean
Thanks! I'll check these out. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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On 24-8-2009 21:29, Bill Pragnell wrote:
> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> More Zelazny: the Amber decalogy (if that is a word)
>
> Or just the first five, if you have doubts. I tend to recommend that sequence to
> anyone I discuss fiction with!
The opening of the first book is a classic. IIRC terry pratchett
mentions it somewhere. GIYC (google is your curse) you can not say
something like that and not Google it*, in this case, I can not find it.
There are also echo's of it in DA's The Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul.
(If Mr Teatime in hogfather is a reference to that we can start building
trees)
>> Douglas Adams: the Dirk Gently books.
>
> Ooh yes, especially the second one. The first one's cleverer, but the second one
> features more gods. :)
>
*) that is what I think, but the whole Obama health care discussion
seems to prove me wrong.
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Have you ever read Terry Pratchett?
The title "Small Gods" comes to mind - it's about the novice Brutha who
comes to know his god Om quite intimately. ;-)
You will find some interesting observations on the nature of an established
church, it's priests and prophets and the nature of belief in general.
The Turtle Moves!
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On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:59:08 +0200, "TC" <do-not-reply@i-do
get-enough-spam-already-2498.com> wrote:
>"My Name is Legion" (three short stories about the same guy).
>
>Then, you might mean "Roadmarks" (Last exit to Babylon)... although this is
I really liked both of those stories and was disappointed that there were no
sequels.
--
Regards
Stephen
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TC wrote:
> Have you ever read Terry Pratchett?
All of it, including Good Omens, Johnny and the Bomb, the Bromiliad, etc.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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Well, I did like Amber best. A pity Roger Zelazny died of cancer - I would
have liked to read the ending of the books.
Unfortunately he is not alone... Robert Jordan was not able to finish his
"Wheel of Time".
Are there any bets on whether George R. R. Martin ever finishes his "Song of
Ice and Fire"? Or is "A Dance with Dragons" the Last Book in the series?
A good series, totally unpredictable in the beginning, although probably not
what Darran was looking for. Another good read is the "Sword of Shadows"
series by J. V. Jones, still unfinished, too.
I should not start reading a series of books before the author finishes it.
"Stephen" <mcavoysAT@aolDOTcom> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:u7i7955fqa64ssttet82nu08gr0h5su2g7@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:59:08 +0200, "TC" <do-not-reply@i-do
> get-enough-spam-already-2498.com> wrote:
>
>>"My Name is Legion" (three short stories about the same guy).
>>
>>Then, you might mean "Roadmarks" (Last exit to Babylon)... although this
>>is
>
> I really liked both of those stories and was disappointed that there were
> no
> sequels.
> --
>
> Regards
> Stephen
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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> a écrit dans le message de news:
4a94015e$1@news.povray.org...
> TC wrote:
>> Have you ever read Terry Pratchett?
>
> All of it, including Good Omens, Johnny and the Bomb, the Bromiliad, etc.
>
I just finished "The Carpet People" which he wrote when he was 17 old and
rewrote in 1991.
Very pleasant..
I'd love to see a 3D animation from it
Marc
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On 25-8-2009 17:51, m_a_r_c wrote:
> "Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 4a94015e$1@news.povray.org...
>> TC wrote:
>>> Have you ever read Terry Pratchett?
>> All of it, including Good Omens, Johnny and the Bomb, the Bromiliad, etc.
>>
> I just finished "The Carpet People" which he wrote when he was 17 old and
> rewrote in 1991.
> Very pleasant..
> I'd love to see a 3D animation from it
What is holding you back?
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"andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> a écrit dans le message de news:
4A9### [at] hotmailcom...
> What is holding you back?
Back from making a 90+ mn HD animation movie ?
Just time, money, skill and few other things that do no come to my mind a
the moment... :-)
Marc
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On 25-8-2009 22:26, m_a_r_c wrote:
> "andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 4A9### [at] hotmailcom...
>
>> What is holding you back?
> Back from making a 90+ mn HD animation movie ?
> Just time, money, skill and few other things that do no come to my mind a
> the moment... :-)
>
> Marc
Come to think a bout it, where is the internet movie project when you
need them?
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On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:46:05 +0200, "TC" <do-not-reply@i-do
get-enough-spam-already-2498.com> wrote:
>Well, I did like Amber best. A pity Roger Zelazny died of cancer - I would
>have liked to read the ending of the books.
>
Which books? I thought that he had finished the Amber series. I've just finished
reading the second series as I found the last two and thought it a good idea to
start from the beginning.
>
>Unfortunately he is not alone... Robert Jordan was not able to finish his
>"Wheel of Time".
>
I did not know that he had died. I've grown board with most fantasy and have gon
back to "hard" SF when I can find it.
>
>I should not start reading a series of books before the author finishes it.
>
Or buy that crystal ball :)
--
Regards
Stephen
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The last book I read was "Knight of Shadows" - obviously I missed "Price of
Shadows". Shame on me, ashes on my head ;-)
I'll buy the last book asap, thank you.
Besides, if you are bored with Fantasy (as I was for some time): try Tad
Williams "War of the Flowers".
It is a good read and totally different from what to expect when reading a
fantasy about faries. And what more can we which for than a NEW plot?
"Stephen" <mcavoysAT@aolDOTcom> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:abl895hsu82g1m7qmll2f9l5noicqguqq0@4ax.com...
> Which books? I thought that he had finished the Amber series. I've just
> finished
> reading the second series as I found the last two and thought it a good
> idea to
> start from the beginning.
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On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:51:51 +0200, "TC" <do-not-reply@i-do
get-enough-spam-already-2498.com> wrote:
>The last book I read was "Knight of Shadows" - obviously I missed "Price of
>Shadows". Shame on me, ashes on my head ;-)
>
>I'll buy the last book asap, thank you.
>
And everyone lives happily ever after ;)
Or maybe not! :P
>Besides, if you are bored with Fantasy (as I was for some time): try Tad
>Williams "War of the Flowers".
>
>It is a good read and totally different from what to expect when reading a
>fantasy about faries. And what more can we which for than a NEW plot?
>
I lost interest with his "Otherland" series. It was too dark for me.
If time permits I will give "War of the Flowers" a try.
--
Regards
Stephen
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